Purchasing physical gold??

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fishdrzig
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Purchasing physical gold??

Post by fishdrzig » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:09 pm

For those of you who practice this, where to you usually buy? I would like some leads to follow. Thank you

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leonidas
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by leonidas » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:47 pm

The only physical gold (and silver) I ever bought was on ebay in 1999 thru 2001. The auctions vaired wildly but many times I got coins below the current spot price. I tried a few months ago and all the bids were much higher than the spot price. Did you try googling gold and sifing thru the results. Premiums over spot vary considerably.

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Quasimodo
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Quasimodo » Sat Mar 01, 2014 12:52 pm

Here’s a link to a forum with a number of discussions about buying physical gold:

http://gyroscopicinvesting.com/forum/gold/

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hoopy
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by hoopy » Sat Mar 01, 2014 1:24 pm

I have never used them, but I hear they are reputable: http://www.kitco.com/

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Caboose » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:28 pm

http://www.coloradogold.com

Don Strott and his team are the best in the business - and enjoy Don's blog when you visit the website

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by abuss368 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:38 pm

Commodities is speculating and not investing.
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Rainier
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Rainier » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:42 pm

abuss368 wrote:Commodities is speculating and not investing.
Agreed, you are only speculating on somebody paying more in the future for it. No income, just a yellow metal to coddle.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by jacoavlu » Sat Mar 01, 2014 2:53 pm

tulving, Gainesville coins are two more

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by abuss368 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:10 pm

Rainier wrote:
abuss368 wrote:Commodities is speculating and not investing.
Agreed, you are only speculating on somebody paying more in the future for it. No income, just a yellow metal to coddle.
Warren Buffett had an excellent Shareholder note on this last year. It is well worth the time to read.
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Rainier
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Rainier » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:15 pm

He mentioned it again this year, just referring to only looking at the price, not the income

dgdevil
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by dgdevil » Sat Mar 01, 2014 3:53 pm

I used Border Gold for my Maple Leafs. But my next step will be to dig for buried tins of the stuff on my property.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by chicagobear » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:07 pm

Apmex and Montana Rarities. Tulving is supposedly way behind in his deliveries and is not recommended.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by chaz » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:15 pm

abuss368 wrote:Commodities is speculating and not investing.
But safer than bitcoins.
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Watty
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Watty » Sat Mar 01, 2014 4:32 pm

leonidas wrote:The only physical gold (and silver) I ever bought was on ebay in 1999 thru 2001. The auctions vaired wildly but many times I got coins below the current spot price. I tried a few months ago and all the bids were much higher than the spot price. Did you try googling gold and sifing thru the results. Premiums over spot vary considerably.
I don't know how widespread it but if you Google something like "eBay counterfeit coin" you will get lots of hits. It would be best to stick with reputable dealers.

Before you buy be sure to know about the special "collectable" capital gains tax that you will be paying when you sell it.

As with any investment it would be good to take the time to write down just why you are buying it. Once you have a firm list of goals you may find that there are better ways to try to accomplish those goals.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by abuss368 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 6:58 pm

chaz wrote:
abuss368 wrote:Commodities is speculating and not investing.
But safer than bitcoins.
Indeed. That was good.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by donaldfair71 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:26 pm

I have bought from APMEX in the past. Now I drive to Maryland (about an hour drive) once/year to buy them at a coin exchange. If I buy in Virginia where I live, I owe a total of 11% in bullion tax. In Maryland, anything over $1000 causes no bullion tax. I get them as cheap or cheaper as APMEX with no shipping.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Sat Mar 01, 2014 8:58 pm

Search for bullion wholesalers. I use one local to me and there are only a few in New England. Look into taxes. In Mass, if you buy less than $1000 in bullion, there's 6.25% sales tax. If you buy over $1000, there is no tax.

I watch Apmex for prices and specials but so far have bought (over $1k) in silver bullion a couple times locally.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Super » Sat Mar 01, 2014 10:31 pm

Buying gold/silver depends on the state you live in. In some states there is a sales tax on top of the commission fee, that can add up to 12 - 15 % over spot price (in total).

Also think of buying gold/silver as buying car or home owners insurance, not as an investment. It's there in case the entire economy goes to pot.
The person I dealt with said to consider this in case of economic collapse.......

1. Have a stash of "silver " dimes for purchasing small items (food, milk, etc.).. (If all you have is large bars, who will have change for a loaf of bread)
2. A stash of "silver" quarters or 50 cents for meat, hamburger larger, liquor etc.
3. "Silver" dollars for fuel, or larger purchases
4. 10 - 100 ounce bars of silver for next level of purchases
5. Gold for the final level.

Remember, this is for economic collapse, not for investment purchases.

An online place to consider is www.silvertowne.com. It's a retailer that has been in the same location in eastern Indiana for over 50 years. There is also different prices depending on the country of origin the coins come from.

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TheTimeLord
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by TheTimeLord » Sun Mar 02, 2014 12:05 am

Rainier wrote:
abuss368 wrote:Commodities is speculating and not investing.
Agreed, you are only speculating on somebody paying more in the future for it. No income, just a yellow metal to coddle.
But a gold mining or commodity company is investing?
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by beardsworth » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:40 am

In addition to all the other problems inherent in owning physical gold, this article suggests that even the market price of the metal itself is unreliable as a true "market" price.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-02-2 ... ation.html

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by cromwell » Sun Mar 02, 2014 10:39 am

check out golddealer.com the name of company is California numismatics. You can see current buy and sell prices and get info about common and rare precious metal coins, bars etc.They are transparent and straight forward in dealings and helpful without pressuring or hype. Good Hunting

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by dratkinson » Sun Mar 02, 2014 4:45 pm

Do the math. Gold hit ~$800/ounce in the late 1970s. Today it's <$1400/ounce. That's a 35-year return of <1.6%... before subtracting expected losses to annual inflation and the bid-asked spread when sold. So gold's long-term expected return is 0%.

Gold does not pay dividends.

How is this a good investment? "Diversification" is the wrong answer.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by MCSquared » Sun Mar 02, 2014 5:21 pm

dratkinson wrote:Do the math. Gold hit ~$800/ounce in the late 1970s. Today it's <$1400/ounce. That's a 35-year return of <1.6%... before subtracting expected losses to annual inflation and the bid-asked spread when sold. So gold's long-term expected return is 0%.

Gold does not pay dividends.

How is this a good investment? "Diversification" is the wrong answer.
Dr. Bernstein has done the math. Read for yourself.


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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by beammeupscotty » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:17 pm

dratkinson wrote:Do the math. Gold hit ~$800/ounce in the late 1970s. Today it's <$1400/ounce. That's a 35-year return of <1.6%... before subtracting expected losses to annual inflation and the bid-asked spread when sold. So gold's long-term expected return is 0%.

Gold does not pay dividends.

How is this a good investment? "Diversification" is the wrong answer.
Diversification in action.
http://www.stableinvesting.com/p/long-t ... mance.html

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C319
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by C319 » Sun Mar 02, 2014 7:20 pm

I've used bullion direct for about ten years with no issues so far.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Professor Emeritus » Mon Mar 03, 2014 8:53 am

I go to Istanbul or Florence or Macy's . I buy gold and hang it on DW. Pays excellent in-kind non taxable dividends. :P :P :P

But YM or your DW may vary :D

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Peter Foley » Mon Mar 03, 2014 9:52 pm

If you are purchasing small quanties, look for a coin show in your area. There are usually a few numismatists who are also silver and gold bullion buyers and sellers . The dealers know each other and you could ask someone selling coins who at the show would be selling gold bullion. Check the market prices on line the day of the show to get an idea of fair buy and sell prices.
If I were doing this I would only consider buying 1 oz or 1/2 oz standard issue "coins" like the Canadian maple leaf.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Caduceus » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:24 am

The OP's original question was how best to buy gold given that he wanted to do so. One possibility would be to buy GLD, which is a fund that is backed by physical gold, instead of buying gold directly. (I don't like gold as an investment, but this was the question)

Depending on your reasons for wanting to own gold, shares of gold mining stocks (GDX, GDXJ) represent ownership interests in actual companies that earn profits, rather than a metal that produces no income stream and which is inherently speculative. (Again, I'm not recommending gold-mining shares... just throwing it out there assuming investing in gold is a given for the OP)

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by normaldude » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:13 am

jacoavlu wrote:tulving, Gainesville coins are two more
Tulving just collapsed. Possible big fraud / scam. Tulving had delivery issues for the last 6 months, so lots of people sent money to Tulving, and got nothing.

=================
O.C. gold-coin dealer closes after complaints of delays

March 6, 2014

An Orange County coin dealer who has been accused by frustrated customers nationwide of delaying numerous gold- and silver-coin shipments has closed shop, according to a posting on the company's Costa Mesa office window.

“The Tulving Company has closed. More information the week of March 10th,” reads the sign, which was seen Thursday at the firm's headquarters.

It appears a flood of complaints against The Tulving Company and owner Hannes Tulving Jr. led to a state investigation.

During at least the past year, a surge of customers as far away as Maryland have complained to his company and the Better Business Bureau about late or missing orders of rare, precious-metals coins. The BBB has fielded more than 150 complaints since last summer and received 5,600-plus inquiries since 2010.

Some customers have reported losing tens of thousands of dollars in investments, leading many to complain at online coin forums and to California authorities. A few have filed lawsuits.

Kevin Pyle, a military veteran in Eldersburg, Md., says he's out more than $24,000 for 20, 1-ounce Canadian Maple Leaf gold coins that never made it from Tulving's office to his home.

Pyle, 45, placed the order in December and was promised it would arrive within three weeks, he said. Once five weeks passed, he ramped up his calls to the company but got nowhere.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/tulv ... -coin.html


At least two customers, one in Arizona and another in South Dakota, have filed lawsuits:

• South Dakota resident Kenneth W. Stach says the company has failed to deliver 240 gold coins to him, for which he paid more than $318,000 in mid-November, despite multiple requests for the coins, court documents show.

• Alfred J. Olsen, of Phoenix, says his $107,000 order of 80 Gold Maple Leaf coins was supposed to be shipped within a week of ordering them in October, based on a lawsuit filed in U.S. District Court in Arizona. When the suit was filed in the fall, Olson had yet to receive the coins.

http://www.ocregister.com/articles/coin ... -gold.html

Image


It should also be noted that the owners of "Gainesville Coins" have a shady past. Do a google search for Mark Yaffe and Alan Yaffe, and their other gold firm "National Gold Exchange" which collapsed under a mountain of fraud.

http://www.bizjournals.com/tampabay/sto ... ily25.html

..in filings in bankruptcy court, Miami bankruptcy trustee Joseph Luzinski said Yaffe routinely shuffled around his gold inventory to inflate their accounts; silently owned an "independent" coin grader to prop up values; funded personal coffers with "large sums of money" from the company account; and paid his wife and father $500,000 in two years of salaries for doing little to no work.

To evade detection of his "reckless and wasteful spending," Luzinski wrote, Yaffe filed false invoices and coached employees "to shred business documents on a daily basis."

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/r ... on/2156338

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Flashes1 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:36 am

Gold/Silver is very good for keeping big government in the dark. They have no idea who has what and how much they have. Depending on where you live in this country, this can be an important reason to hold physical gold/silver. As others have mentioned it might have value in the event of an economic collapse although guns and animals/crops will probably be more valuable.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:07 am

When I sat down with my bullion wholesaler, he explained one advantage of silver/gold US coins. If you leave the US with over $10,000, you must report this upon departure. If you have $10,000 face value of gold or silver coins, you only have $10,000 to the government. Now, I have no reason to bring large quantities of cash out of the US, but it sort of illustrates how transportable these are.

Now, let me take the counter point. Have you ever picked up $10,000 face value of silver?
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Buysider » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:26 am

If you leave the US with over $10,000, you must report this upon departure. If you have $10,000 face value of gold or silver coins, you only have $10,000 to the government.
Nice story, but not true. I'd hate to lose $10,000 face value of gold because of that. It is the value of the coins, not the face value. See the customs FAQ:

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail ... uggested/1

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Professor Emeritus » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:04 pm

Buysider wrote:
If you leave the US with over $10,000, you must report this upon departure. If you have $10,000 face value of gold or silver coins, you only have $10,000 to the government.
Nice story, but not true. I'd hate to lose $10,000 face value of gold because of that. It is the value of the coins, not the face value. See the customs FAQ:

https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/detail ... uggested/1

You mean a person selling gold to a sucker would LIE?? I'm shocked SHOCKED!!!

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Nowizard » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:17 pm

There is no doubt that gold is not a good purchase for the long haul. However, it can be very good during a short haul if you are able to make the correct decision about getting in and getting out. I suspect that it is an area where irrationality drives its price more than with other possible investing options which makes it somewhat easier to predict its movements for those who market time. Even more significant in my opinion is the divergence in price between platinum and gold at different points in time. I have had small amounts of both, never more than about a pound combined at a time, and have experienced significant profits though always purchasing more as a known speculation than for investing purposes. Some folks here obviously have a steel will and can follow essentially all the Boglehead concepts consistently. I am weaker and occasionally require submitting to a "wild hair" in order to avoid a more destructive mistake such as frequent buying and selling.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by technovelist » Tue Mar 11, 2014 1:19 pm

I love how all the rational, objective people on this forum go wild whenever anyone mentions an inert metal that just so happens to have the longest track record of any asset class in the world. :D
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by technovelist » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:21 pm

Professor Emeritus wrote:
technovelist wrote:I love how all the rational, objective people on this forum go wild whenever anyone mentions an inert metal that just so happens to have the longest track record of any asset class in the world. :D
so does farming with sticks to plow the ground. So what?
People on this forum go wild when someone mentions farming with sticks? I guess I must have missed those threads. :mrgreen:
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Caduceus » Tue Mar 11, 2014 4:24 pm

Hmm, but what about the answer to the OP's question? I don't like gold as an investment but I'm interested in answers to what would be the best way/form to hold physical gold IF one was bent on buying it.

Are there differences in terms of what grade of gold to buy? (Are all kinds of physical gold the same?) Does gold jewelry hold its value less well than gold coins?

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by technovelist » Tue Mar 11, 2014 5:43 pm

Caduceus wrote:Hmm, but what about the answer to the OP's question? I don't like gold as an investment but I'm interested in answers to what would be the best way/form to hold physical gold IF one was bent on buying it.

Are there differences in terms of what grade of gold to buy? (Are all kinds of physical gold the same?) Does gold jewelry hold its value less well than gold coins?
For most people it is probably best to buy recognized coins, e.g., American Eagles, Canadian Maple Leafs, South African Krugerrands. Whichever of these has the lowest premium (price above the gold content) is generally best for investment as you get more gold for your money.

As for sizes, the 1-oz net weight coins are the best bargain because they have the lowest premiums.

Gold jewelry is generally a very expensive way to buy gold, as there is usually a very large markup over the gold content, which you won't get back when selling.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by pjstack » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:17 pm

I still have my six gold coins (4 bullion, 2 numismatic) that I bought for ~$400 each.

So there! (Nynah! Nynah!) :D
pjstack

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by LadyGeek » Tue Mar 11, 2014 6:49 pm

This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (purchasing physical gold).

Please stay on-topic, which is how to purchase gold.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by jfn111 » Tue Mar 11, 2014 7:15 pm

I buy most of my Gold and Silver at the local coin shows. Most of them have enough vendors to spur some price competition and I can usually buy at or near spot price.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by Professor Emeritus » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:22 pm

technovelist wrote: Gold jewelry is generally a very expensive way to buy gold, as there is usually a very large markup over the gold content, which you won't get back when selling.
In the USA this is true but "Bullion jewelry" is common in other countries. I agree the premium is higher than one oz coins but not much higher. In Cairo and Istanbul you pay about 10% over the bullion price and get about 10% under.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by LH » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:45 pm

matto wrote:
I believe your chart, in addition to neglecting dividends, neglects inflation.
True, but shouldnt really mess up the sp500 to gold comparison much since both nominal, but yeah, real is always better. the lack of total return will mess it up though, it will understate sp500 relative to gold. Here is (perhaps) a better chart:

http://www.seasoninvestments.com/insigh ... ous-relic/
Image

I must say, offhand, I do not follow the chart, I do not understand the gold numbers.... hmmmm.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by LadyGeek » Tue Mar 11, 2014 8:55 pm

I removed a number of off-topic comments, some continuity is lost. The OP is asking where / how to purchase gold.

Please stay on-topic.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by montanagirl » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:16 pm

I went to a local coin shop that has been here for years. They look up spot price right there and sell me a mint Eagle or Maple Leaf or K-rand in a plastic case for 50 over spot usually. Then I sell it back to them for spot. But we have no sales tax here and I never bought large quantities.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by technovelist » Wed Mar 12, 2014 4:40 pm

Professor Emeritus wrote:
technovelist wrote: Gold jewelry is generally a very expensive way to buy gold, as there is usually a very large markup over the gold content, which you won't get back when selling.
In the USA this is true but "Bullion jewelry" is common in other countries. I agree the premium is higher than one oz coins but not much higher. In Cairo and Istanbul you pay about 10% over the bullion price and get about 10% under.
That is a 20% spread, which is at least 5x the spread you would pay for coins in any reasonable quantity. And sometimes there are much lower spreads on coins; for instance, Kitco.com has a sale on Maple Leafs right now with less than 2% spread, so 1/10th of the spread you are quoting on jewelry.

So if you spent $11,000 on gold jewelry, you could immediately sell it for $9,000. If you spent $10,000 on Maple Leafs at Kitco, you could get about $9,800 if you sold them back right away.

I think most Bogleheads can see which of these is a better deal. :moneybag
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by mrgeeze » Sun Jul 10, 2016 10:00 am

edited and deleted
wrong thread

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by selters » Sun Jul 10, 2016 2:37 pm

Does land pay dividends or produce anything? I'm not very big on gold, historically the human race has valued gold, just like it has valued land. I don't think people are crazy if they hold 5 or 10% of their assets in gold.

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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by JoMoney » Sun Jul 10, 2016 3:23 pm

I think you should look into what form you want the gold in, which may help direct you to where to buy it.
i.e. bullion bars, coins (valued for gold, or with collectible value), jewelry, other useful/decorative pieces, securitized/trade-able on a market ?
There are some major pros and cons to holding it in different forms.
The only gold I own was purchased from my dentist and at an electronics store.
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Re: Purchasing physical gold??

Post by dual » Sun Jul 10, 2016 4:21 pm

dratkinson wrote:Do the math. Gold hit ~$800/ounce in the late 1970s. Today it's <$1400/ounce. That's a 35-year return of <1.6%... before subtracting expected losses to annual inflation and the bid-asked spread when sold. So gold's long-term expected return is 0%.

Gold does not pay dividends.

How is this a good investment? "Diversification" is the wrong answer.
You are cherry picking the time interval. A more objective time interval is from the date Nixon made US currency totally fiat (August 1971) when it was worth $35 per ounce to today when it is approximately $1300.

The compounded rate of return is log(1300/35)/45 ~ 8%. That's not great but it is not 0 as you claim.

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