Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

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tbradnc
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Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by tbradnc »

There are a few thermostat threads going on and I wanted to share my recent experience with 2 wi-fi t/stats.

The first one I tried was the Nest. The website is here: http://www.nest.com. If you don't know, this t/stat was designed by the guy who designed the iPod and being an Apple fan I was excited to get my hands on one. Ordered one from Amazon and both the look and configuration have a distinct Apple flavor. Very easy to install and simple to operate. It took me about an hour from the time I cut the power to powering up the Nest.

The first thing I noticed was that the Nest has a wide temperature tolerance range. Turns out, it is designed with a +-3* range - so if you set it for 70*, you might be anywhere between 67* and 73*. Setting a thermometer close to the Nest found that the actual temperature displayed on the Nest was always a few degrees off. The next thing I noticed was that it ran my HVAC unit much longer than my old thermostat, then it would switch off the furnace and it would stay off until the temp dropped a few degrees, then it would come back on for another round of extended heating. I'm not an HVAC professional and don't know the correct terminology but in layman's terms I found the way the Nest was sort of like a regular t/stat that someone continually played with turning the temperature up and down by turns. I sent a few emails to support and never received a reply. (I did immediately get a reply on a pre-purchase question). At long last I found the Nest support forums and read Amazon reviews and was surprised to find out that there are a lot of issues with the product that are unresolved. Support seems to be non-existent and hold times on the support line are commonly in the 30 minute to 1 hour range (anecdotal, I never called the support line). They do have one heck of a marketing department though.... Sent it back to Amazon.

Oh.. the Nest folks push firmware updates to your t/stat. They pushed a buggy version, 4.0, and caused many problems for customers who were quite happy before the update. I heard they were quickly downgrading customers who were complaining the most back to the prior version.

Then I did what I should have done first: research wi-fi thermostats. This led me to the Ecobee SmartSi (http://www.ecobee.com). It costs considerably less than the Nest - ordered one from Amazon and when it arrived I went through the installation again taking about an hour. The Ecobee is just a little bit harder than the nest to install but I'd still rate it as "very easy". Turned it on and walked through the setup which is intuitive enough but I did have to refer to the manual about some of the more technical settings. The Nest, being an Apple cousin, assumes you're daft while the Ecobee offers a much deeper level of customization. The Ecobee also does not exhibit any of the strange behavior of the Nest and if you didn't know I had it programmed with schedules you'd never know I installed it. I emailed support with 2 questions on a Sunday and had an answer within 3 hours.

Both t/stats can be controlled by smart phones and tablets and also via a web interface. Again I would give the Ecobee a higher rating with more reporting and options than the Nest.

Verdict: I like the Ecobee much better than the Nest. If you're considering purchasing one of these brands I strongly encourage you to read the support forums for both prior to purchase. The Ecobee has an active Google group and Ecobee support is active in the group. The Nest support forums are available from the Nest website. Also read reviews of both products on Amazon.

Here is an excellent HVAC forum where you can search and read what HVAC technicians think of both products: http://hvac-talk.com/vbb/forumdisplay.p ... ntial-HVAC.

Trivia: My wife and daughter like the Ecobee because it pulls in the NOAA forecast for your zip code and displays current temp/weather on the main screen with a longer range forecast available at the push of a button. Every morning when they get up they check the weather on the way to the kitchen.
Last edited by tbradnc on Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pacific
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by Pacific »

"daft"? or "deft"?
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tbradnc
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by tbradnc »

Daft.. :)

I"m a huge Apple fan - I think I have about 1 of everything Apple. The first thing I noticed when I drank the Apple Kool-Aid was that all the products seem designed to protect you from yourself.

The Nest is like that... it's amazingly simple and easy to use but by design you can't tinker with some of the more advanced settings that take advantage of features unique to modern HVAC units.

Reading the installation and configuration manuals prior to installation illustrates this very well.
Last edited by tbradnc on Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ketawa
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by Ketawa »

I also just replaced my dumb thermostat with the Ecobee Smart Si. After reading the Nest reviews on Amazon, I decided to save $100 and get a thermostat that would actually do what I told it.

I have a single stage heat pump with auxiliary electric heat strips. The thermostat was very easy to install with this setup. So far, it has been smart enough to avoid using the auxiliary heat. The smart recovery feature works well at heating my condo so it reaches my desired temperature range when I return home from work. My heating limit is 55 when I'm gone. However, the weather hasn't been cold enough to really test this out; my condo hasn't been below 65 in the last week. I haven't had the thermostat report any email alerts yet either, but these features seem very valuable. I set it to alert if the aux heat is used more than 1 hour in a day. I also set alerts for the temperature being out of the desired ranges. These would seem very helpful for if I'm away on a trip.

I really like the graph it generates on the Home IQ web portal. The thermostat reports the heating/cooling limits, indoor temperature, outdoor temperature, and humidity every five minutes. The web portal generates a nice graph that makes it easy to visualize all the changes over time.

Overall, I am very pleased with the purchase. I'm hoping it will pay for itself quickly, but even if it doesn't, it was a great purchase.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by wander »

I didn't use Ecobee before so I cannot comment but I hear a lot of positive opinions about it. I am using Nest thermostat. It is very simple to setup and user friendly. In my opinion, the best feature is "auto-away" since we are in and out of the house at different times and it switches automatically (sometimes, it switches to automatically while I am at home but do not pass the hallway as often as it expects). Other than that, it's just like a regular programmable thermostat (You can get one of the Honeywell thermostats for cheap).
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by Valuethinker »

tbradnc wrote:There are a few thermostat threads going on and I wanted to share my recent experience with 2 wi-fi t/stats.
.
Thank you for this enormously helpful information. Pity we don't have a 'recommend post' button ;-).

These devices have not yet penetrated to the UK but I am sure that it is only a matter of time.
Iorek
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by Iorek »

Thanks for the info. I had a friend who was an early adopter of the Nest and he came home day and the Nest had crashed, and the furnace was completely off (which as it happened was inconvenient but not a major problem as it could have been if they'd been gone for an extended period when it happened).

I settled for a normal programmable thermostat, but the ecobee looks very interesting.
Diogenes
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by Diogenes »

Have used the Ecobee in our house for over a year, continue to be impressed.

Easy to check in with the app or web interface while away and runs true to temperature. Installation is lower profile than Nest, especially as you can leave off the back bracket and mount closer to the wall.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by newkidontheblock »

I currently have Honeywell 7 day programmable Thermostat. I can program temps for morning, evening, night and day time for each day.
I live in a 2 story home with a finished basement so features like Nest auto away are not helpful.

Other than being able to view/change temps on Phone apps and web interface is there anything Ecobee offers that my current thermostat does not?
I am a geek so I will love to justify my Ecobee purchase.

Thanks
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tbradnc
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by tbradnc »

newkidontheblock wrote:I currently have Honeywell 7 day programmable Thermostat. I can program temps for morning, evening, night and day time for each day.
I live in a 2 story home with a finished basement so features like Nest auto away are not helpful.

Other than being able to view/change temps on Phone apps and web interface is there anything Ecobee offers that my current thermostat does not?
I am a geek so I will love to justify my Ecobee purchase.

Thanks
The Ecobee supports reverse staging if you have a 2 stage furnace/HP and you can set it to run the fan x amount of minutes per hour to move air around which results in a more even temperature distribution. I also have mine set so that the temperature can't be adjusted below a certain number nor above a certain number. This keeps my daughter from jacking it up to 80* when she's cold in the morning and turning it down to 65* when she's hot in the summer.

Phone/tablet/web access remotely is nice. I thought it would be something that I wouldn't use once the novelty wore off but as the temperatures have dropped into the teens around here lately I've found myself warming up the house on the way home a few times.
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Epsilon Delta
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by Epsilon Delta »

newkidontheblock wrote:
Other than being able to view/change temps on Phone apps and web interface is there anything Ecobee offers that my current thermostat does not?
It allows hackers to carefully synchronize the switching of many thousands of multi-kilowatt loads. This could induce instabilities in the electric grid. Thus your thermostat becomes part of the nationally critical infrastructure. Make sure your firewall is up to date.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by madbrain »

Do any of these products work with zoning HVAC systems, such as the Carrier infinity I own ?
I currently have 2 Carrier Infinity HVAC systems, one wit 6 zones and the other 4 zones.
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tbradnc
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by tbradnc »

Wouldn't most t/stats have a non-routable IP courtesy DHCP & NAT?
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by madbrain »

tbradnc wrote:Wouldn't most t/stats have a non-routable IP courtesy DHCP & NAT?
You can do DHCP based on MAC address and have in effect a static IP internally.
For routing, you could open your firewall to a particular port on that address.
More likely, those devices connect to an external public server on the internet, through which you can access them.
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tbradnc
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by tbradnc »

madbrain wrote:Do any of these products work with zoning HVAC systems, such as the Carrier infinity I own ?
I currently have 2 Carrier Infinity HVAC systems, one wit 6 zones and the other 4 zones.
Looks like both do:

http://www.ecobee.com/uncategorized/eco ... e-control/

http://support.nest.com/article/Does-Ne ... ed-systems.
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tbradnc
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by tbradnc »

madbrain wrote:
tbradnc wrote:Wouldn't most t/stats have a non-routable IP courtesy DHCP & NAT?
You can do DHCP based on MAC address and have in effect a static IP internally.
For routing, you could open your firewall to a particular port on that address.
More likely, those devices connect to an external public server on the internet, through which you can access them.
Ah.. I see.. Nest pushes firmware updates to their t/stats. Hacker gains control of the Nest server and through that, Nest t/stats.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by madbrain »

tbradnc wrote:
madbrain wrote:Do any of these products work with zoning HVAC systems, such as the Carrier infinity I own ?
I currently have 2 Carrier Infinity HVAC systems, one wit 6 zones and the other 4 zones.
Looks like both do:

http://www.ecobee.com/uncategorized/eco ... e-control/

http://support.nest.com/article/Does-Ne ... ed-systems.
Thanks. I just checked out the prices. About $250 for each. x10 would be $2500.
Natural gas (heating) bill is still a 3 digit annual number. It's unlikely these would save more than 20% of the bill.
Currently my electric bill for 2013 was $0 due to solar, so no real need to reduce AC usage.

And they use touch screens - yuk.
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tbradnc
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by tbradnc »

The ecobee isn't a touch screen.

The Nest would require a separate thermostat in each zone - expensive.

From ecobee: The ecobee is compatible with zone control systems and can be used to replace an existing zone thermostat be it a “master or slave” thermostat.

I agree that a regular programmable t/stat with the right schedules would save as much energy as a Nest or ecobee. I've always thought the 20% saving claims are mostly from people who have dumb 'set it and forget it' t/stats.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by madbrain »

tbradnc wrote:The ecobee isn't a touch screen.
Isn't it ?

http://www.amazon.com/ecobee-EB-STAT-02 ... rds=ecobee
I agree that a regular programmable t/stat with the right schedules would save as much energy as a Nest or ecobee. I've always thought the 20% saving claims are mostly from people who have dumb 'set it and forget it' t/stats.
Yes, the combination of zoning + schedule for each zone makes the energy bills quite reasonable.
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tbradnc
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by tbradnc »

madbrain wrote:
tbradnc wrote:The ecobee isn't a touch screen.
See: http://www.amazon.com/ecobee-EB-SMARTSi ... =ecobee+si
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by madbrain »

tbradnc wrote:
madbrain wrote:
tbradnc wrote:The ecobee isn't a touch screen.
See: http://www.amazon.com/ecobee-EB-SMARTSi ... =ecobee+si
Thanks. I missed that one.

Went to :
http://www.ecobee.com/solutions/home/comparison/

Unfortunately, the non-touch screen version lacks humidity control, which I need.
Overall, there seems to be far fewer features than on my Carrier Infinity thermostats.
Seems what I really want is the Carrier internet module for my systems.
But last I checked, they were like $500 a piece, and I need 2. Maybe they have come down.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by Spirit Rider »

Honeywell also has Wi-Fi thermostats. They are not as intuitive as the Nest or the Ecobee, and might require a little knowledge of your system to install.

Think of this as Mac vs. PC. On one hand you have intuitive interface, but that simplicity limits your options. On the other hand you have more options and can look under the hood. However, with that flexibility comes complexity and more things that can go wrong.

To each their own, but at least there are more options coming.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by Khanmots »

tbradnc wrote:I agree that a regular programmable t/stat with the right schedules would save as much energy as a Nest or ecobee. I've always thought the 20% saving claims are mostly from people who have dumb 'set it and forget it' t/stats.
I've felt the Nest t-stat was something of a gimmick... more of a simplification for those that don't want to deal with programming a t-stat than providing any real savings.

But the ecobee seems to have a different aim. Its smarts aren't in attempting to automate programming your schedule. Its smarts lie instead in optimizing when to turn the systems on in order to obtain that temp at a specific time.

For instance during the summer here if I want my house to be at 78 when I get home at 5:30, when to start the extra cooling to get the house down to that temp is going to drastically differ depending on if it's a mild 95 or a blazing hot 115 outside. If I were doing a traditional programmable t-stat I'd have to come up with some middle-of-the-road estimate and have it not be cool when I get home some days and have it get cool an hour or two early wasting power on others. The ecobee looks like it learns how your house responds to both external (weather) and internal (HVAC) inputs and adjusts based on extant conditions in order to reach the temperature you want at the time you want. Not simply turning the system on at a certain time.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by tbradnc »

I would tend to agree with that. The ecobee definitely manages my HVAC system in a different manner than the Nest which I presume is due to the algorithms each company uses to control the temp.

Just saw this in the ecobee Google group:

Check it out! It's a Christmas Miracle! New humidifier efficiency curves on my Smart, and the addition of a min runtime delta (to prevent humidifier short cycling). The Ecobee elves (or are they just called Eco-BEES?) have been hard at work in the workshop.

Great job, Ecobee crew. And thanks for pushing out thia beta to anyone on this group who opted in.

We love new features, and as much as some of us complain about features we want, it's only fair that we give proper recognition when Ecobee hooks us up.


We purchased the home we live in now 3 years ago. The previous owner had installed a Trane XL14C HVAC system the year before - from learning about t/stats I've discovered that the unit is capable of a lot more than it is setup to do. My next project is to run a new t/stat cable with more wires so I can take advantage of some of the advanced features.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by Ketawa »

Here is a quick screenshot that demonstrates the Ecobee's behavior. This is from the web portal, not the app. I imagine other thermostats can do this too; I just thought it would be fun to show. I have three temperature settings for heating: 65* when I'm sleeping, 70* when I'm home, 55* when I'm away.

I have a single stage heat pump with auxiliary electric heat strips. You can see that this evening is the first time it has had to use them regularly (the pink areas on the lower chart, approximately 6 minute spurts). The outdoor temperature is below 25* and the heat pump alone is unable to keep up with the 70* thermostat setting. I might consider keeping my thermostat at a lower temperature when it's this cold outside. The heat pump can make it to 69* before leveling off. Since this is the first time it has been this cold, I'm hoping that the thermostat learns to start the heat pump earlier to meet the programmed temperature.

Image
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by wander »

Khanmots wrote: But the ecobee seems to have a different aim. Its smarts aren't in attempting to automate programming your schedule. Its smarts lie instead in optimizing when to turn the systems on in order to obtain that temp at a specific time.
Nest is doing the same thing. If I want 75 at 7 am during winter time, the Nest turns on the heater at earlier time based on its prediction to get there. Nest is simple to use, my parents like it very much. It's just the matter of dial to the temperature that you are comfortable and leave it alone.
To be fair, it's nearly impossible to compare the thermostats because they cannot be installed in the same house side-by-side. So, we do not know which one is better at any condition. I chose Nest because it was user friendly.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by Jeff Albertson »

Google Buys Nest for $3.2 Billion in Cash
http://mashable.com/2014/01/13/google-b ... b2xtdF8ifQ

"The acquisition could give Google a strong footing in the growing market for Internet-connected household devices. Some have also speculated that it might provide Google with even more data on its users, though Nest noted in its blog post that it will continue to take user privacy "seriously.""
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by Valuethinker »

Jeff Albertson wrote:Google Buys Nest for $3.2 Billion in Cash
http://mashable.com/2014/01/13/google-b ... b2xtdF8ifQ

"The acquisition could give Google a strong footing in the growing market for Internet-connected household devices. Some have also speculated that it might provide Google with even more data on its users, though Nest noted in its blog post that it will continue to take user privacy "seriously.""
In the dot com era, a lot of business plans were funded which read like this

'we develop X amazing piece of internet enabling hardware/ software and then.... Cisco buys us'.

Maybe Google is the Cisco in this phase of the development of the internets.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by jebmke »

wander wrote:
Khanmots wrote: But the ecobee seems to have a different aim. Its smarts aren't in attempting to automate programming your schedule. Its smarts lie instead in optimizing when to turn the systems on in order to obtain that temp at a specific time.
Nest is doing the same thing. If I want 75 at 7 am during winter time, the Nest turns on the heater at earlier time based on its prediction to get there. Nest is simple to use, my parents like it very much. It's just the matter of dial to the temperature that you are comfortable and leave it alone.
The thermo that came with my heat pump does the same thing. We set back to 62 at night, 66 during the day. If it is very cold, the system will come on earlier than it would on a warmer night to try to gradually raise the temp without having to kick in the resistance heat.
Stay hydrated; don't sweat the small stuff
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by lthenderson »

I bought the second generation Nest and though it has improved in performance in the last few months, I am still less than impressed with it for several reasons:

1. Yes it automatically programs itself to your schedule but you must spend a week going to the t/stat and adjusting it and then it takes some time after that to even out the swings to get it just right. After two days I ended up turning off that feature and just spending about 5 minutes programming the thing exactly how I wanted to begin with and was done. For me, that feature was a time sink and not a time saver.

2. One of the biggest reasons I bought the Nest was for the wi-fi feature. (I didn't think to research other brands that might have wi-fi capabilities.) Because we often go away for a few days, I wanted some way to ensure that the heat was still working while away during the winter and that I could turn it on before I got home to have the house warmed or cooled to a desirable temperature. The problem was that my internet signal via Mediacom evidently isn't very stable and blinks off sometimes multiple times a day. The Nest wouldn't reconnect once the signal had been established like every other wi-fi device out there does. Instead you have to go to the Nest and connect again through the dial and menus rendering it impossible to do when you are away from the house. After a year of having to do this several times a week, Nest evidently has fixed this in a software update because the last two months have been fine.

3. The auto away function only works if your thermostat is in a high traffic area. Ours isn't and thus I initially had to intentionally walk by it and wave so that it still saw that I was home. I finally disabled that feature too and just switch it to 'away' as I'm leaving or via my cellphone app if I forgot (assuming my internet signal hadn't flickered already.)

Saying all that, I still like the Nest for its sleek modern design and it does have a great software interface on the t/stat. Their app for your phone is also easy to use compared to others I have seen. But if I had it to do all over again, I'm not sure the price premium was worth these pros. One thing is for sure, I'm not likely to run out and buy their smoke detectors anytime soon without more thorough research on my part.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by ilisira »

Not one of the two thermostat's you have asked about, but I have been using the RadioThermostat for 2.5 years now (can be found at Home Depot as a 3M branded one, or at http://www.radiothermostat.com/). We have two of them one is connected to an A/C, and furnace, other is connected to a heat pump, and furnace, and both have been working great.

It's not like nest where it does things automatically. It's a wifi connected thermostat that allows you to change temperature settings from the unit itself, through an app on your phone/tablet, or through a web interface. Even though I have not played with zigbee/z-wave, it has a slot where you can insert modules for these radios, and can connect to your security system (or other zigbee/z-wave systems you might have at home).

We have been extremely happy, and they have paid off by the savings within two years easily.
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Re: Wi-Fi Thermostats: Nest and Ecobee

Post by PatSea »

I also have the 3M Radiothermostat. Provides peace of mind knowing our furnace is operating properly as we travel or spend 2 months in Florida in the winter. Difficult to quantify $ savings, but I'm sure it has paid for itself ($99) in 2 years.
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