Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

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HelloImAMac
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Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by HelloImAMac »

we are considering talking a 10-12 day trip to Europe (Czech, Austria, Germany) during Aug of 2014 when the kids have summer break. good idea with kids and that too Europe ? I am a bit skeptical - lot of walking, long hours - i am a bit worried they may get tired soon and we may not be able to see much during the most likely an "expensive" trip. Anyone done this recently ? wife is insistent but I am trying to convince this is a bad idea. Oh well I could be wrong too.

thoughts ?
livesoft
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by livesoft »

Without knowing your kids, I can't say. My kids have been to Europe a few times. It was always a joy to have them along.
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paulsiu
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by paulsiu »

Depend on what you want to do and your kids personality. The age does limit your activities. You may have to carry them around. How fit are you and your wife :-).

Paul
stlutz
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by stlutz »

When I was young I didn't care where we went on vacation as long as the hotel had a swimming pool. :)
Valuethinker
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by Valuethinker »

HelloImAMac wrote:we are considering talking a 10-12 day trip to Europe (Czech, Austria, Germany) during Aug of 2014 when the kids have summer break. good idea with kids and that too Europe ? I am a bit skeptical - lot of walking, long hours - i am a bit worried they may get tired soon and we may not be able to see much during the most likely an "expensive" trip. Anyone done this recently ? wife is insistent but I am trying to convince this is a bad idea. Oh well I could be wrong too.

thoughts ?
August is the time in Europe (except Scandinavia, when it is July) when *everyone* is on holiday. This means anything family related is jammed, and prices go up. School holidays typically don't start til late in July, and on 1st August whole countries seem to go on holiday.

Most of Europe heads for somewhere warm, sunny by the sea. However Germans also like mountains (so do the Dutch) and so mountain resorts etc. are jammed (not as bad as they are in ski season).

If you can avoid holidaying in August in Europe you should. If not, you need to have hotel rooms etc. pre booked. But any place that attracts tourists, will have lots of them. I have not been in Vienna or Prague in summer but I imagine they would be very busy. I love Berlin, and like all German cities there are family friendly things (2 zoos, one in the east, one in the west, both exceptional), but it will be busy. Also a lot of the meaningful stuff in Berlin (Jewish Museum, Holocaust Museum etc.) is quite adult.

Anywhere south of the Alps is brutally hot. You can have heat waves in Ger-Austria-Czech and hot days, but in the more mountainous areas it will cool off at night.

Bizarrely Paris in August can be quite nice. So many people are away on holiday that the city is relatively quiet-- you will share it with tourists and grumpy Parisiens who had to stay at work ;-). A lot of restaurants etc. are closed, but the city is more convenient. I can't recommend Eurodisney if you've got the original one in your own country ;-). Although it would be a worthwhile distraction for the kids.

There are books and guides re family friendly holidays in Europe. My gut reaction is yours, the kids won't appreciate the stuff that takes adults to Europe, they'll get more out of it when they are older.

You'll be amazed at the different ways nationalities manage their own kids. The scowl kids can get from Germans in a place where it is deemed 'inappropriate' to have your children (restaurant etc.) can be impressive. Conversely generally the Continent is quite child-friendly in my view. Playgrounds. Good public transport.

Europeans with young families go camping. These are essentially resorts, with pools and supervised play areas etc, where a family rents a tent (usually on a wooden platform-- this is not roughing it in the wilderness!). I have an (Italian) friend whose family does that in Sardinia for a month every summer.

To summarize:

- what makes Europe interesting is hard with young kids
- August is not the month to travel in Europe if it can be avoided [EDIT: as per followup comments, I may be overegging this-- but do avoid Italy in August]
- you'll need careful planning
- most European cities have playgrounds and other child friendly facilities and places to go
Last edited by Valuethinker on Sat Dec 28, 2013 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
coalcracker
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by coalcracker »

I am planning a trip to France in September with my now newborn, then 9 month old, which I imagine will be a much different experience from a 3 and 6 year old. A friend who traveled extensive with her two young children told me she subscribed to the "one-thing-a-day" rule, meaning only 1 specific activity was planned per day. After that trip to the museum, church, or other sightseeing attraction, the rest of the day was unplanned and often spent lounging around the pool, having extended meals, hanging out at a city park etc. She claimed it worked really well.
Wolkenspiel
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by Wolkenspiel »

We have been traveling with our kids (now almost 5 and almost 3) in Europe every summer for the last three years, and plan to go again next year. One needs to be somewhat realistic with expectations and somewhat flexible, but other than that it's no big deal. August may be slightly suboptimal, but ok with some planning ahead (in Germany/Austria/Czech Republic - Italy in August is another story). With kids, I find it preferable to have a fixed base for a week or more at a time, rather than moving from city to city every few days. We usually travel by rental car - local public transport is typically more convenient for adults in most european cities, but often not very stroller friendly. We throw in some kid friendly activities (zoo, aquarium, playgrounds, natural history museums - dinosaurs!), but mostly do what we would like to do.
Valuethinker
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by Valuethinker »

Wolkenspiel wrote:We have been traveling with our kids (now almost 5 and almost 3) in Europe every summer for the last three years, and plan to go again next year. One needs to be somewhat realistic with expectations and somewhat flexible, but other than that it's no big deal. August may be slightly suboptimal, but ok with some planning ahead (in Germany/Austria/Czech Republic - Italy in August is another story). With kids, I find it preferable to have a fixed base for a week or more at a time, rather than moving from city to city every few days. We usually travel by rental car - local public transport is typically more convenient for adults in most european cities, but often not very stroller friendly. We throw in some kid friendly activities (zoo, aquarium, playgrounds, natural history museums - dinosaurs!), but mostly do what we would like to do.
All good advice. Agree that Italy is probably the worst re August (ditto anyplace sea coastal in France- -and try to avoid the 1st of August-- there is a day around then when all of France goes on holiday *at once*).

I've never travelled with a stroller in a European city, but public transport *mostly* seemed to accomodate same.

But driving in a European city? Ughh. Traffic is a nightmare, parking is a nightmare. I would tend to avoid it (for larger cities). Did you not find that?
awval999
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by awval999 »

Coming from a 28 year old who just went to Europe this past summer.

Are you kidding? I saw a couple of western tourists bringing along their brood this summer, they seemed miserable. Kids were kicking, bored, whining. Lots of double strollers. I don't even know what the point is. The 3 year old won't remember at all. The 6 year old will only remember a few bits. If they were 10 and 12 then of course. They could be the popular kids vacationing in Paris. I'm assuming since your kids are young you and your spouse are in your 30's. Take a romantic 7-10 day getaway to Europe and send the kids to their grandparents. Buy them a new Nintendo DSi and some games and you will be way ahead in costs compared to flying them over the the pond and they will enjoy the time with their grandparents more I'm sure.
jackholloway
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by jackholloway »

Mine lived Europe at 9, Alaska at 5 and 7. 3 might be a bit young to remember much, but Alaska is still memorable nearly half her life later.
Wolkenspiel
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by Wolkenspiel »

Valuethinker wrote: I've never travelled with a stroller in a European city, but public transport *mostly* seemed to accomodate same.
Last big city we went to was Paris, where many of the Metro stations we used didn't have elevators or escalators. That get's old quickly with a tired 4 year old and a 2 year old in a stroller.
But driving in a European city? Ughh. Traffic is a nightmare, parking is a nightmare. I would tend to avoid it (for larger cities). Did you not find that?
I grew up in Europe, so traffic seems, well, normal. We usually just park in public parking garages (which are about an order of magnitude cheaper than those in big cities in the US).
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BL
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by BL »

How do they (and you) travel in the USA? I think it depends on the parents and the kids as to whether this would be a wonderful trip or a nightmare.

On a flight back from Iceland a week after 9-11, there was a family of 6 (homeschoolers) who had been delayed for a week after travelling in Europe. I have never seen such calm, well-behaved children on a long plane ride; they were busy playing cards or other quiet games. I am sure travelling in Europe was just fine for them.

On the other hand, if you like to rush and catch all the adult sites, you could be in for a nightmare! Probably you are somewhere in between, but travelling in the US would probably be smarter and cheaper until they get a bit older. Even 2 or 3 years would help the younger child remember the trip.
Big Worm
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by Big Worm »

No way I would do this!

Of course going away for the weekend is an incredible production in my family with young kids.
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by 2stepsbehind »

I agree wholeheartedly with those who suggest you avoid Europe in August. Depending on the location it is either a desolate ghosttown occupied by those who could not get away and/or crowded by tourists/summering Europeans. Either scenario likely doesn't make for an enjoyable experience. As a compromise, have you considered Montreal or Quebec City? European feel, closer, and unlikely to be as swamped with tourists.
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by socalsri »

I think it really depends on your kids. We have 2 kids, a 6 year old and a 9 month old. We just got back from a 16 day trip to Israel/France and had a wonderful time. This was the first international trip with both kids (3 flights, 13, 4 and 11 hours). Is it hard and frustrating at times? Absolutely, but it is also rewarding and super-educational. Our 6-year old has been on 7 international trips. He *still* remembers a few things from when we went to Japan at age 2! Germany/Austria was my older son's first overseas trip at 5 months old and it was quite easy.

Our 6 year old is a super-active kid and our 9 month old is very easy-going. If you saw our 6-year old, you would probably think we were crazy to go anywhere since he is so hyper. But, he actually does really well on trips. He loves the constant stimulation of travel.

Here's what I would suggest:

1. Things are a *lot* easier if your child is breast fed. This means you don't have to worry about bottles and more importantly, you don't have to worry about clean water and sanitizing bottles etc. Our older son was breast-fed and often times just fell asleep in the baby-sling while we were walking around in museums (and once in a beer hall during Oktoberfest with everyone going crazy! :)

2. We take a cheap stroller on our trips but often it's pointless since it's hard to push that thing on cobblestone streets or going up and down stairs. I would suggest a combination of the Ergo baby / Baby Bjorn to carry your kid around. Our older son hated the baby carriers, but he really did well a large baby backpack (Kelty 3.0 is what we used). Our younger son didn't care what he was in, as long as he was looking out.

3. As far as flights are concerned, make it a point to feed your kid as soon as you take off and as you are descending for landing. Make sure they aren't sleeping during these two times; keep them hungry if you have to. Babies need to be keep sucking to adjust to the air pressure. We've seen too many kids who had issues with this.
gerrym51
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by gerrym51 »

Your asking for opinions. my opinion bad idea at their ages
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Watty
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by Watty »


we are considering talking a 10-12 day trip to Europe (Czech, Austria, Germany)
Even without kids that is likely too much for such a short trip because you will spend too much time packing up and traveling between locations.

With the kids and all your luggage taking public transportation will be a challenge so you might want to get a rental car.

You should check out the Rick Steve's books and web site to see what they stay about traveling with young kids.
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by denovo »

It's doable, but the question is it appropiate? I suspect the kind of things you want to visit in Europe are not the kind of things kids are going to be interested in at that age. 6 and 3 seem more like Disneyworld.Disneyland, local water park than Europe years. This is what grandparents are for if you want to go yourself. :happy
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Crimsontide
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by Crimsontide »

Well you asked for opinions... Yep, bad idea. As others have said, send them to the GPs and have a nice trip with the wifey.
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6miths
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by 6miths »

We spent 3 years in the Middle-East with 4 children ages 2,4,6 and 8 at the start and spent Christmases and some parts of the summers in Europe. We had a great time but it is all in the attitude. Bear in mind that the 3 year old will have no specific recollections of the trip. That doesn't mean that they won't enjoy it. Obviously it's not a choice everyone would make but it surely can be done.
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walkabout
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by walkabout »

My opinion... I would be leery of taking an almost 3 year old to Disney World, much less Europe.

I've seen suggestions in this thread of doing one activity per day. Why pay good money and go through the machinations of international flights and intercountry travel and only do one activity per day?

I'm not a big fan of the vacation death march where one has to have a full go go go schedule from dawn to dusk every day. OTOH, on an "active" vacation, I do want to put in a good effort at seeing a few sights or doing a few activities in a day.

By waiting a couple of years, your younger child will be able to provide his own locomotion. Your older child will be able to provide meaningful help in keeping the younger occupied.

Do yourself a favor, go to the beach or something. Save the major traveling until your younger child can appreciate the sights and activities (or can at least tolerate them).
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by EternalOptimist »

Personally, when my daughter was young we kept things simple....places with pools and games. They'll likely get bored and tired and won't appreciate what they are seeing, after all they are children.
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by SGM »

We brought 7 and 5 year olds to the Loire Valley. We rented a house owned by a British family. Lots of chateaux to visit, a backyard to play in when we got home and the ability to cook a few meals was helpful. The kids liked playing with some of the toys in the house. We toured by car. All trips were day trips from the house. We stayed two nights in a hotel in Paris.

A few years later we rented the manor house at a hunting estate owned by some rock star in Italy. Fortunately, the other couple we vacationed with had an au pair. The two Italian maids happily cooked meals for us on our return from all day touring including wild boar and pheasant from the estate. These rentals were much less expensive than staying in hotels or motels.

Google houses for rent near a location of interest.
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Blue
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by Blue »

Wonderful experiences with our 4+ aged kids in international travel with Adventures by Disney. Three similar trips to the described and all have been a resounding success for our family.
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by protagonist »

HelloImAMac wrote:we are considering talking a 10-12 day trip to Europe (Czech, Austria, Germany) wife is insistent but I am trying to convince this is a bad idea. Oh well I could be wrong too.

thoughts ?
I loved traveling abroad with my daughter when she was young. She was a great traveler and we enjoyed many of the same things. I don't think there is any clear-cut answer to your question...it depends on your kids, and how well you get along with them in such situations.
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by vveat »

Ours are 5 and 3, we travel to Europe regularly to visit grandparents, but all they remember so far are the playgrounds and similar entertainment for children. So a trip for sightseeing would be a complete waste.

So far we have gone the route of "leave them with grandparents, take a week-long adults-only trip to a nice location", but we do plan to start family travel soon, just to get ourselves in the habit. This year we did a test 2-day trip to Philly and Baltimore (from NJ) - hit the zoo, aquarium, children's museum. Their highlight of the trip was the night in a motel near Baltimore and the dip in the motel pool. :oops:

Next year we'll rent something in a Spanish resort for a couple of weeks, see how it works, and then gradually transition to exploring cities like Paris and Rome when the younger one is 5 or 6.

If you do end up going, at least prepare a plan B (e.g. staying longer in one of the locations, if moving around proves too much of a hassle)
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by Geist »

It depends significantly on your children. If they love walking around & seeing things, and get excited by new experiences, then they will do great. Just bring along a stroller for when one of them collapses & falls asleep in your arms.

If seeing the sights simply does nothing for your kids, the "leave 'em with family/friends" plan is an excellent option. It sounds callous, but they'll be happier to spend time with their grandparents (or aunts/uncles/cousins, or friends, or whoever will take them) than wander around "boring" cities, and you'll have a great time enjoying Europe between the two of you.

I grew up traveling. Even as a small child, my family was frequently traveling throughout Europe, the US, and the Pacific Rim. It was great for us, because all of my siblings (5 of us) mostly enjoyed the adventure of traveling. Another option that we did occasionally was to leave 2 uninterested kids with friends, and the rest of us all went off galavanting through Japan & South Korea. Surprisingly, the 2 who stayed insistently joined our next trip (after the rest of us brought back all the fun stories of what we did & saw :mrgreen: ). So it's very much dependent on your children. You know them best. If you think they will enjoy it, bring them along. If not, let them stay.

But to address the "they won't remember" argument, I respectfully disagree. Sure, they may not keep those memories into adulthood, but while they're children, they will. They'll remember the fun, the happiness, and the family bonds. It may not be specific, recallable memories, but they'll have emotional and personality-shaping experiences. Traveling with children is most certainly not a waste.
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ualdriver
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by ualdriver »

HelloImAMac wrote:we are considering talking a 10-12 day trip to Europe (Czech, Austria, Germany) during Aug of 2014 when the kids have summer break. good idea with kids and that too Europe ? I am a bit skeptical - lot of walking, long hours - i am a bit worried they may get tired soon and we may not be able to see much during the most likely an "expensive" trip. Anyone done this recently ? wife is insistent but I am trying to convince this is a bad idea. Oh well I could be wrong too.

thoughts ?
My wife and I have been travelling domestically (US) with our kids since they were newborns (when pediatrican says it's OK) as we love to travel. Mrs. ualdriver and I also travel internationally (by ourselves- no kids!). I would say my kids are very experienced travelers, relatively well behaved (everyone thinks their kids are angels, right?), know the drills with getting on an airplane, finding their own seats, sitting by themselves, entertaining themselves on an airplane, knowing what to do if they got separated from us, etc., etc., and only now that they are approaching ~10-11 years old would I consider taking them on an overseas trip. I can't imagine trying to take my kids on that long a journey at ~6, never mind 3, even though at those ages they had probably gone on tens of airline flights and trips to various places in the US between them. It would just be a huge PITA, even though they had travelled quite a bit before. Plus, I don't know if you're familiar with those countries or will be on a guided tour, but we've found ourselves in situations in unfamiliar cities (taken a wrong turn, gotten off at the wrong stop, gotten temporarily "lost," ended up accidentally in a section of town we shouldn't be in) where I am glad we didn't have young children in tow.

Maybe this is the only way you and your wife can travel to Europe and you don't have a babysitter at home? Maybe this trip is a "once in a lifetime" opportunity? If that's the case, I'd say go for it, but bring plenty of aspirin. Otherwise, either leave the kids at home or wait until they're older IMHO. Have fun with whatever you decide to do. I'd love to go to Czech and Austria!
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kramer
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by kramer »

awval999 wrote:Coming from a 28 year old who just went to Europe this past summer.

Are you kidding? I saw a couple of western tourists bringing along their brood this summer, they seemed miserable. Kids were kicking, bored, whining. Lots of double strollers. I don't even know what the point is. The 3 year old won't remember at all. The 6 year old will only remember a few bits. If they were 10 and 12 then of course. They could be the popular kids vacationing in Paris. I'm assuming since your kids are young you and your spouse are in your 30's. Take a romantic 7-10 day getaway to Europe and send the kids to their grandparents. Buy them a new Nintendo DSi and some games and you will be way ahead in costs compared to flying them over the the pond and they will enjoy the time with their grandparents more I'm sure.
++1. And take the rest of the savings and put it into their college funds.

I don't even understand why your wife would want to bring them, it honestly sounds like the mother of all bad ideas, more than just kinda bad :happy I would not take any child that did not have some background in the history of what he was seeing -- and I would have them read about it and study before the trip.
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frugaltype
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by frugaltype »

The question is, why bring the kids along? Is it so not to be parted from them, or is it to give them the experience?

If the latter, I can say that my parents took us on yearly trips when I was a kid, but my memories of the trips are very hazy or non-existent until I was well past the toddler stage. I do have isolated earlier memories, but nothing like remembering what a whole trip was like.

I don't think a three year old will remember much of anything, not sure about the six year old.

You might consider the trip with just the older one. Of more value and less hassle for you.

Update: I now to recall a rather distinct memory of some of the early trips, and that was my brother and I throwing up from motion sickness on apparently every trip. That was pre-Dramamine. Your mileage may differ.
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by Professor Emeritus »

I've been waiting to see if I could add anything to the discussions.

We traveled internationally with our children every year since they were infants. Before they were 12 they had been in almost every country in the old EU plus Egypt, Australia, Mexico and Kenya.

Can you do it Yes
what does it take? Planning, money, patience, money, humor, money, tolerance, money, etc.

But there are "moments"
Three year old daughter peering at lovely new stainless steel "squat" toilet in the south of France says " I don't care! THAT"S NOT A POTTY"

Five year old feeding the Giraffe in the Cairo zoo

Seven year old heard me lecture in German. Her comment "made more sense that what you say at home"

As they say, priceless
Flashes1
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by Flashes1 »

I'd rather slit my wrists than take my kids some place far away such as Europe.
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by texasdiver »

We have 3 girls ages 7, 10, and 15. We have also traveled the world with them since the oldest was born including annual trips between Alaska where we used to live and Chile where my wife is from.

Generally speaking younger kids do better if you don't try to move them so much. Set up housekeeping in some attractive place and stay there for a spell rather than try whirlwind tours through anyplace. Kids also like more rural places where they can play outside. We also find that renting furnished vacation houses or apartments with kitchens makes travel with kids so much easier. Restaurants can be torture for the young. My kids are often much happier with just a hot dog popped in the microwave and some fruit cups or yoghurt.

If it were me contemplating an international vacation with small children I would target some closer location like Costa Rica where one can rent a vacation hues and stay out to enjoy the beach with your kids. If I were looking to target Europe I think I would look to some more rural area where one can rent a house and get to know a place in more depth. Perhaps Portugal or Northern Spain or some place like that.
Wagnerjb
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Re: Europe with young kids - 6 and almost 3, bad idea ?

Post by Wagnerjb »

I would not bring the kids along. First of all, they won't remember the trip in 10 years anyway. And they will make it much less enjoyable for you. You will have much more flexibility without them. Of course, it will be more expensive to bring them along too.

When our children were that age (3 and 5) we moved overseas to Malaysia. That required long trips to get there, come back for home leave, etc. We took local vacations to beaches with them, and those were enjoyable for all. They enjoyed the beach and the resort, and the places were geared to accomodate children. On the other hand, my wife and I celebrated our 10-year anniversary by flying (alone) to Australia - an 8 hour flight. We left the kids with their nanny and we had a great time. We did plenty of sightseeing, eating at nicer restaurants, moving around. And I could not imagine doing most of those things with little children.

Best wishes.
Andy
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