Pull-ups and Push-ups

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4stripes
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by 4stripes » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:50 am

lightheir wrote:No, my statements about more reps/low rep for older folks is not anecdotal. 5 heavy squats at a strong effort is the WORST thing you could recommend to an older or off-the-couch person...)
I'm obviously not recommending untrained novice individuals show up and do heavy squats. For one thing, this is impossible--they are not adapted to lift anything heavy. This is what linear progression/General Adaptation is and why it is useful to understand: you start with light weights, and add weight linearly and progressively. In three months, that weight will be heavier, but now you can lift it easily, unlike on week one. The stressor was overcome and adapted to. A sedentary person starts squatting with the empty bar or a training bar and adds 5 pounds or less 3 days/week. They don't start with 225. Surprisingly for most, this actually works, unlike doing 50 pushups every day, which will only result in you being able to maybe do 60 pushups three months later.
lightheir wrote:50 pushups as well, is clearly NOT wasting your time. But 50 pushups in fact does train strength AND endurance (less on the strength component), and because the peak force/power is much less than a 1 rep max, your odds of tearing/straining a muscle are much lower.
Why on Earth would I aim to have chest-pushing endurance vs. max pushing force production/strength? I do not see any application for pushing endurance other than pushups. Chances are, a person with a five rep 225# bench press can do more pushups than someone that just does pushups. Strength has a carryover to endurance, whereas endurance does not carry over to strength. Sprinters weight train. This is why strength training is so useful, especially to the general population. Let's agree to disagree on this one, some people just like pushups, but they won't be pushup-ing their way to 10 body-weight bench presses.
lightheir wrote:Ask any sports coach or physical therapist which will do more damage or potential damage to a ligament or muscle - a 3-rep max vs a 20 rep or 50 rep max effort. Due to the max loading of those high weight/low reps, the damage or risk of damage is much more significant.
Well, an untrained novice has no real concept of a max effort because they are not adapted to anything at all. Their strength improves on a daily basis on a linear program. Their first three rep max squat could very well be 55 pounds--a pittance that likely won't be injurious unless it is done incorrectly.

You're building this argument off of a flawed assumption: that unconditioned novices, or endurance conditioned athletes, can somehow strength train at weights sufficiently heavy enough to hurt themselves, or would be foolish enough to do so.

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink » Wed Nov 20, 2013 12:39 pm

4stripes wrote:
lightheir wrote:No, my statements about more reps/low rep for older folks is not anecdotal. 5 heavy squats at a strong effort is the WORST thing you could recommend to an older or off-the-couch person...)
I'm obviously not recommending untrained novice individuals show up and do heavy squats. For one thing, this is impossible--they are not adapted to lift anything heavy. This is what linear progression/General Adaptation is and why it is useful to understand: you start with light weights, and add weight linearly and progressively. In three months, that weight will be heavier, but now you can lift it easily, unlike on week one. The stressor was overcome and adapted to. A sedentary person starts squatting with the empty bar or a training bar and adds 5 pounds or less 3 days/week. They don't start with 225. Surprisingly for most, this actually works, unlike doing 50 pushups every day, which will only result in you being able to maybe do 60 pushups three months later.
lightheir wrote:50 pushups as well, is clearly NOT wasting your time. But 50 pushups in fact does train strength AND endurance (less on the strength component), and because the peak force/power is much less than a 1 rep max, your odds of tearing/straining a muscle are much lower.
Why on Earth would I aim to have chest-pushing endurance vs. max pushing force production/strength? I do not see any application for pushing endurance other than pushups. Chances are, a person with a five rep 225# bench press can do more pushups than someone that just does pushups. Strength has a carryover to endurance, whereas endurance does not carry over to strength. Sprinters weight train. This is why strength training is so useful, especially to the general population. Let's agree to disagree on this one, some people just like pushups, but they won't be pushup-ing their way to 10 body-weight bench presses.
lightheir wrote:Ask any sports coach or physical therapist which will do more damage or potential damage to a ligament or muscle - a 3-rep max vs a 20 rep or 50 rep max effort. Due to the max loading of those high weight/low reps, the damage or risk of damage is much more significant.
Well, an untrained novice has no real concept of a max effort because they are not adapted to anything at all. Their strength improves on a daily basis on a linear program. Their first three rep max squat could very well be 55 pounds--a pittance that likely won't be injurious unless it is done incorrectly.

You're building this argument off of a flawed assumption: that unconditioned novices, or endurance conditioned athletes, can somehow strength train at weights sufficiently heavy enough to hurt themselves, or would be foolish enough to do so.
This thread has turned into a battle between those who have experience and beyond novice knowledge of strength training and those who don't. Waste of time at this point to continue a discussion when those with opposing views have totally contradictory goals; as in they seem to have no interest in getting stronger therefore the long proven methods for doing so are pointless.

As a professional "sports coach" (I worked as a college football strength coach, then for Athletes Performance training college players for the NFL combine, then as the strength coach for one of the largest professional MMA clubs in the country), I disagree with pretty much everything Lightheir states about strength training. He's a competitive triathlete with no interest in serious strength training, not sure how his opinion or experience is relevant for those with goals contradictory to his.

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by lightheir » Wed Nov 20, 2013 1:22 pm

stoptothink wrote:
4stripes wrote:
lightheir wrote:No, my statements about more reps/low rep for older folks is not anecdotal. 5 heavy squats at a strong effort is the WORST thing you could recommend to an older or off-the-couch person...)
I'm obviously not recommending untrained novice individuals show up and do heavy squats. For one thing, this is impossible--they are not adapted to lift anything heavy. This is what linear progression/General Adaptation is and why it is useful to understand: you start with light weights, and add weight linearly and progressively. In three months, that weight will be heavier, but now you can lift it easily, unlike on week one. The stressor was overcome and adapted to. A sedentary person starts squatting with the empty bar or a training bar and adds 5 pounds or less 3 days/week. They don't start with 225. Surprisingly for most, this actually works, unlike doing 50 pushups every day, which will only result in you being able to maybe do 60 pushups three months later.
lightheir wrote:50 pushups as well, is clearly NOT wasting your time. But 50 pushups in fact does train strength AND endurance (less on the strength component), and because the peak force/power is much less than a 1 rep max, your odds of tearing/straining a muscle are much lower.
Why on Earth would I aim to have chest-pushing endurance vs. max pushing force production/strength? I do not see any application for pushing endurance other than pushups. Chances are, a person with a five rep 225# bench press can do more pushups than someone that just does pushups. Strength has a carryover to endurance, whereas endurance does not carry over to strength. Sprinters weight train. This is why strength training is so useful, especially to the general population. Let's agree to disagree on this one, some people just like pushups, but they won't be pushup-ing their way to 10 body-weight bench presses.
lightheir wrote:Ask any sports coach or physical therapist which will do more damage or potential damage to a ligament or muscle - a 3-rep max vs a 20 rep or 50 rep max effort. Due to the max loading of those high weight/low reps, the damage or risk of damage is much more significant.

Well, an untrained novice has no real concept of a max effort because they are not adapted to anything at all. Their strength improves on a daily basis on a linear program. Their first three rep max squat could very well be 55 pounds--a pittance that likely won't be injurious unless it is done incorrectly.

You're building this argument off of a flawed assumption: that unconditioned novices, or endurance conditioned athletes, can somehow strength train at weights sufficiently heavy enough to hurt themselves, or would be foolish enough to do so.
This thread has turned into a battle between those who have experience and beyond novice knowledge of strength training and those who don't. Waste of time at this point to continue a discussion when those with opposing views have totally contradictory goals; as in they seem to have no interest in getting stronger therefore the long proven methods for doing so are pointless.

As a professional "sports coach" (I worked as a college football strength coach, then for Athletes Performance training college players for the NFL combine, then as the strength coach for one of the largest professional MMA clubs in the country), I disagree with pretty much everything Lightheir states about strength training. He's a competitive triathlete with no interest in serious strength training, not sure how his opinion or experience is relevant for those with goals contradictory to his.
Ok disagree to disagree.

I'm currently a competitive triathlete but I was a serious weight training athlete in my younger days, so yes, I'm well familiar with the standard regimens of weight/strength training.

I am also an MD - and was quite humbled when rotating through the rehability and sports medicine units of hospitals during my training days. I used to think more along your guys' lines, focusing more on the low-rep power for all individuals, regardless of age, but it became very clear to me that you need much more careful and methodical approaches (starting with low-weight, higher reps strength training) for older or very new individuals to the sport.I absolutely would start off someone like my sedentary parents with assisted or no weights with more rather than few reps and build from there.

Your approach to strength training for a NFL combine player or a MMA athlete would be very different when applied to the OP or the typical noncompetitive athlete on this forum. (And FWIW, I'd bet our approaches to strength training and explosive power training would be very similar for NFL/MMA groups.)

And finally, it's more helpful to answer what you disagree about with my response to this prior statement :
"If one is older than 25, I think doing more than 20 of anything is unwise. You have a tendinitis/overuse injury that you'll have to wait out. And 3 sets of 50 reps? I'm suspecting they were not true chest-to-floor--another easy way to overuse--not doing the full, more difficult movemen]."
than using an ad hominen attack on someone's credibility. I have never seen any sports or medical evidence saying 20 reps of anything is unwise, for any group. (3 sets of 50 I'd agree is typically too many for the typical strength training regimen, unless you're a swimmer building swim-specific arm muscular endurance using a specific motion.)

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Redstorm
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Redstorm » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:09 pm

Image

I use one of these simple doorway units at home for pull ups and leg lifts and for variety, the larger unit at the local park

A combination of anaerobic and aerobic is great for me and I enjoy it. Recent workout examples

11 minute time limit to get as far through the below as possible
  • 800 meter run
    50 sit ups
    75 air squats (hip below knee at low point)
    100 push-ups (chest to ground)
    Burpees
Rest breaks are short and sweet as the clocks running

Another short, sharp and sweet one was for time, 4 rounds of
  • 400 meter run
    10 Kettlebell swings
    10 pull ups (back to run)
I'm enjoying trying new exercises such as push ups using a basketball, ring dips, wall climbs, hand stand push ups etc

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by abuss368 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:45 pm

I would recommend to play Rocky on your iPod and run up the Philadelphia Art Museum steps at any age!
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by VictoriaF » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:46 pm

Redstorm wrote:Image

I use one of these simple doorway units at home for pull ups and leg lifts and for variety, the larger unit at the local park
Do these units require assembly or fastening to the wall or to the door? Thank you,

Victoria
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:57 pm

VictoriaF wrote:
Redstorm wrote:Image

I use one of these simple doorway units at home for pull ups and leg lifts and for variety, the larger unit at the local park
Do these units require assembly or fastening to the wall or to the door? Thank you,

Victoria
They take about 30sec to assemble and you do not have to fasten it to the wall. They are great and mine was purchased for like $9 at Ross. Caution, they will over time damage the area above your door frame.

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by abuss368 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 4:58 pm

Hooks and a barbell (if you have one) is much cheaper and just as effective if not more.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink » Wed Nov 20, 2013 5:15 pm

abuss368 wrote:Hooks and a barbell (if you have one) is much cheaper and just as effective if not more.
Please tell me where I can purchase a barbell for less than $10 ("top of the line" door frame pullup bars retail for $25 http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Duty-Doorwa ... B0055PFE2Y). A pullup on a stationary circular bar, how could one tool be more effective than another?

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by youngindexer » Wed Nov 20, 2013 6:21 pm

I switched over to exclusive body weight exercise a year ago after extensive weight training kept facilitating injuries. One exercise I don't believe has been mentioned on this tread yet is sprinting. Sprinting is absolutely crucial for any body weight exerciser (with a healthy heart). The strain it puts on your muscles will boost your testosterone thus making you stronger. Pistols, jump squats and jump lunges are also crucial in my opinion straining the legs with just body weight is difficult but can be done. If you live in a hot climate expose yourself to the heat this will make body weight exercises more difficult just make sure to stay hydrated 8-)

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by abuss368 » Wed Nov 20, 2013 8:34 pm

stoptothink wrote:
abuss368 wrote:Hooks and a barbell (if you have one) is much cheaper and just as effective if not more.
Please tell me where I can purchase a barbell for less than $10 ("top of the line" door frame pullup bars retail for $25 http://www.amazon.com/Heavy-Duty-Doorwa ... B0055PFE2Y). A pullup on a stationary circular bar, how could one tool be more effective than another?

Re-read my post: "...barbell (if you have one)...".

That said, please also review my earlier posts. With ego in check I moved a lot of weight and a bar in a door would never had worked or been a serious option. First, while it may work for some, it limits the amount of wide grip pull-ups one can do. Often a grip slightly wider or so than shoulder width will hit the lats better and more effective thus developing the back, focusing on building a wider back as well, and creating a "V" taper which allows the waist to appear smaller via illusion.

I also provided an reverse grip option to focus on the inner lats to help with thickness. Lat pulldowns where a supporting exercise.

I was doing pull-ups with 75 plus pounds for reps at a bodyweight of 242 lbs (yes, I competed in the 242 lbs weight class). So in reality there was 315 lbs or so being pulled up. The lats and other back muscles (read not spine) would be sore for days after. It was/is a great workout. That is a lot! No way a door frame bar would work!

All this from a kid who could never do them in gym class back in the day!
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Jazztonight » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:08 pm

VictoriaF wrote: Do these units require assembly or fastening to the wall or to the door? Thank you,
Victoria
VictoriaF,
Here's one at Bed, Bath and Beyond, in the store or online. It is easy to put together, and will serve your purpose at the beginning until you're interested in something fancier. And at BB&B you can easily return it if you're not happy, right? And you have a 20% off coupon, I assume, like everyone else in America? :happy

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/store/p ... d=Iron+gym

You can buy similar bars anywhere, btw. They just hook on the doorframe. You will be careful using it, please. A fixed bar is more secure, but many people use these doorway bars. As mentioned by others, you will be somewhat limited by the width of the doorway. That said, that "original" model bar has real limitations; there is another model designed to work around this, and I'd personally recommend it as superior:

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Total-Upper- ... 349&sr=1-4

Good luck, and let us know how you progress. Give yourself time, use assisted pull-ups of various types to get to your goal. I still like this video:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3AmFKHXaz8 ... AmFKHXaz8A
"What does not destroy me, makes me stronger." Nietzsche

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by VictoriaF » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:14 pm

Jazztonight wrote:
VictoriaF wrote: Do these units require assembly or fastening to the wall or to the door? Thank you,
Victoria
VictoriaF,
Here's one at Bed, Bath and Beyond, in the store or online. It is easy to put together, and will serve your purpose at the beginning until you're interested in something fancier. And at BB&B you can easily return it if you're not happy, right? And you have a 20% off coupon, I assume, like everyone else in America? :happy

http://www.bedbathandbeyond.com/store/p ... d=Iron+gym

You can buy similar bars anywhere, btw. They just hook on the doorframe. You will be careful using it, please. A fixed bar is more secure, but many people use these doorway bars. As mentioned by others, you will be somewhat limited by the width of the doorway. That said, there is another model designed to work around this limitation:

http://www.amazon.com/Iron-Total-Upper- ... 349&sr=1-4

Good luck, and let us know how you progress. Give yourself time, use assisted pull-ups of various types to get to your goal. I still like this video:

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3AmFKHXaz8 ... AmFKHXaz8A
Jazztonight,

Thank you very much for your recommendations. The problem is that after I saw stoptothink's response I went on Amazon and ordered this bar:
Iron Gym Total Upper Body Workout Bar.

If for some reason it does not work out I will try your recommendations.

Victoria
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:30 pm

youngindexer wrote:I switched over to exclusive body weight exercise a year ago after extensive weight training kept facilitating injuries. One exercise I don't believe has been mentioned on this tread yet is sprinting. Sprinting is absolutely crucial for any body weight exerciser (with a healthy heart). The strain it puts on your muscles will boost your testosterone thus making you stronger. Pistols, jump squats and jump lunges are also crucial in my opinion straining the legs with just body weight is difficult but can be done. If you live in a hot climate expose yourself to the heat this will make body weight exercises more difficult just make sure to stay hydrated 8-)
Welcome! Let me add another technique that I've kept in practice for a very long time: stress walking.

I work in an office environment. Whenever I want to go from Point A to Point B, I walk as fast as I can. In fact, I do this outside, shopping, in the parking lot, and just about everywhere I have room to walk. Not to mention walking just for exercise. I use the term "stress walking" is because that's what it was called at the time. I can't find anything in google on this, perhaps the name has changed.

The idea is that you push your speed to as fast as you can go without breaking into a jog. You use more energy than walking. Jogging is more efficient, which is why your body wants to do it. By holding just under this pace, you are using more energy than needed and get a good workout.

Perhaps someone can explain this better than I can. In any case, I consider it a form of "stealth exercise." Why walk slowly, when you get a better workout going faster? If you get from Point A to Point B faster, then take a longer route.
VictoriaF wrote:Thank you very much for your recommendations. The problem is that after I saw stoptothink's response I went on Amazon and ordered this bar:
Iron Gym Total Upper Body Workout Bar.

If for some reason it does not work out I will try your recommendations.

Victoria
The bar never works out - you do. :D (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by VictoriaF » Wed Nov 20, 2013 9:35 pm

LadyGeek wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:Thank you very much for your recommendations. The problem is that after I saw stoptothink's response I went on Amazon and ordered this bar:
Iron Gym Total Upper Body Workout Bar.

If for some reason it does not work out I will try your recommendations.

Victoria
The bar never works out - you do. :D (Sorry, I couldn't resist.)
Are you saying that buying books and bars is not enough? That I actually have to work out?!

Victoria
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Fallible » Wed Nov 20, 2013 10:00 pm

LadyGeek wrote:[...
Welcome! Let me also another technique that I've kept in practice for a very long time: stress walking.

I work in an office environment. Whenever I want to go from Point A to Point B, I walk as fast as I can. In fact, I do this outside, shopping, in the parking lot, and just about everywhere I have room to walk. Not to mention walking just for exercise. I use the term "stress walking" is because that's what it was called at the time. I can't find anything in google on this, perhaps the name has changed.

The idea is that you push your speed to as fast as you can go without breaking into a jog. You use more energy than walking. Jogging is more efficient, which is why your body wants to do it. By holding just under this pace, you are using more energy than needed and get a good workout.
...
I've been following this thread because I love to exercise but mainly walking, biking, and a little weightlifting, so I had nothing to contribute. But this stress walking you describe is what I have always loved to do, even at work when I could. It takes lots of physical energy, which I've always had, but at top walking speed, you can almost feel the stress fading, coming under control - and now I understand why. Thanks for mentioning it.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by youngindexer » Wed Nov 20, 2013 11:14 pm

LadyGeek wrote: Welcome!
Thanks LadyGeek I love your idea of stress walking :mrgreen:
VictoriaF wrote:The problem is that after I saw stoptothink's response I went on Amazon and ordered this bar:
Iron Gym Total Upper Body Workout Bar.

If for some reason it does not work out I will try your recommendations.

Victoria
Hi Victoria I have the iron gym bar and have been quite satisfied with it. After extensive use it became warped(probably from me weighing 185) and would randomly fall so I recommend anchoring it. I tried to post a picture how I anchored mine but am new to the forum and could not figure out how to post a picture. If you have trouble doing reps at first I recommend putting a chair underneath the bar and putting the ball of your foot down on the edge to make yourself a little lighter.

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Jazztonight » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:02 am

VictoriaF wrote:Jazztonight,

Thank you very much for your recommendations. The problem is that after I saw stoptothink's response I went on Amazon and ordered this bar:
Iron Gym Total Upper Body Workout Bar.

If for some reason it does not work out I will try your recommendations.
Victoria
There are 3 basic positions that your hands can take when using the pull-up bar:

Palms facing away from you. This is considered by most to be the standard "pull-up," and is the most efficient for working your back and related muscles. You can have your hands far apart/shoulder width, or close together, considered close grip, or in between.

The second general position is palms facing toward you; this is referred to by many as a chin-up, and works mostly your biceps.

The third position is utilized when you use those little bars that protrude at 90 degrees from the bar. This is considered a "hammer grip," or "neutral grip," and from what I've been told, it is easier to do but a less effective type of pull-up than the traditional pull-up. (If you can do standard pull-ups, you can do these. But it doesn't necessarily work the other way around.)

There are other varieties of pull-ups. Personally, I generally do pull-ups with a shoulder-wide grip, and sometimes mix it up with close grip pull-ups or chin-ups.

If you get into working out, this may not be the last pull-up bar you own.
"What does not destroy me, makes me stronger." Nietzsche

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by VictoriaF » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:30 am

youngindexer wrote:Hi Victoria I have the iron gym bar and have been quite satisfied with it. After extensive use it became warped(probably from me weighing 185) and would randomly fall so I recommend anchoring it. I tried to post a picture how I anchored mine but am new to the forum and could not figure out how to post a picture. If you have trouble doing reps at first I recommend putting a chair underneath the bar and putting the ball of your foot down on the edge to make yourself a little lighter.
Hi youngindexer,

Thank you for the tips. If I exercise long enough to warp the pull up bar, it will be a major achievement. Start to think of it,
the measure of the work-out progress is not the number of the sets and reps but the number of the warped bars.

Victoria
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by VictoriaF » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:37 am

Jazztonight wrote:If you get into working out, this may not be the last pull-up bar you own.
Hi Jazztonight,

I find that getting into something is the most tidious part. Once it becomes a habit it's much easier to maintain. Seven months ago, I resumed walking with a backpack (30-lb) and at this time, it's a well-established habit. Now, I am looking for further physical conditioning, and this thread and all your coaching are really helpful.

I will buy as many pullup bars as it takes to actually do pull ups as habitually as you and LadyGeek do. In the meantime I use a towel. Perhaps, that's what Douglas Adams really meant when he wrote
Douglas Adams wrote:A towel, [The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy] says, is about the most massively useful thing an interstellar hitchhiker can have.
Victoria
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by 4stripes » Thu Nov 21, 2013 5:27 pm

Redstorm wrote:Image
This bar is detachable and less invasive than drilling into the door frame, but I don't care for it because you cannot do a full range-of-motion pull or chin with it--the side-grips protrude in the way. If your arm can do a full range of motion, it seems wise to train that same range. But it is harder, so most people don't do it!

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Rodc » Thu Nov 21, 2013 9:58 pm

lightheir wrote:
stoptothink wrote:
4stripes wrote:
lightheir wrote:No, my statements about more reps/low rep for older folks is not anecdotal. 5 heavy squats at a strong effort is the WORST thing you could recommend to an older or off-the-couch person...)
I'm obviously not recommending untrained novice individuals show up and do heavy squats. For one thing, this is impossible--they are not adapted to lift anything heavy. This is what linear progression/General Adaptation is and why it is useful to understand: you start with light weights, and add weight linearly and progressively. In three months, that weight will be heavier, but now you can lift it easily, unlike on week one. The stressor was overcome and adapted to. A sedentary person starts squatting with the empty bar or a training bar and adds 5 pounds or less 3 days/week. They don't start with 225. Surprisingly for most, this actually works, unlike doing 50 pushups every day, which will only result in you being able to maybe do 60 pushups three months later.
lightheir wrote:50 pushups as well, is clearly NOT wasting your time. But 50 pushups in fact does train strength AND endurance (less on the strength component), and because the peak force/power is much less than a 1 rep max, your odds of tearing/straining a muscle are much lower.
Why on Earth would I aim to have chest-pushing endurance vs. max pushing force production/strength? I do not see any application for pushing endurance other than pushups. Chances are, a person with a five rep 225# bench press can do more pushups than someone that just does pushups. Strength has a carryover to endurance, whereas endurance does not carry over to strength. Sprinters weight train. This is why strength training is so useful, especially to the general population. Let's agree to disagree on this one, some people just like pushups, but they won't be pushup-ing their way to 10 body-weight bench presses.
lightheir wrote:Ask any sports coach or physical therapist which will do more damage or potential damage to a ligament or muscle - a 3-rep max vs a 20 rep or 50 rep max effort. Due to the max loading of those high weight/low reps, the damage or risk of damage is much more significant.

Well, an untrained novice has no real concept of a max effort because they are not adapted to anything at all. Their strength improves on a daily basis on a linear program. Their first three rep max squat could very well be 55 pounds--a pittance that likely won't be injurious unless it is done incorrectly.

You're building this argument off of a flawed assumption: that unconditioned novices, or endurance conditioned athletes, can somehow strength train at weights sufficiently heavy enough to hurt themselves, or would be foolish enough to do so.
This thread has turned into a battle between those who have experience and beyond novice knowledge of strength training and those who don't. Waste of time at this point to continue a discussion when those with opposing views have totally contradictory goals; as in they seem to have no interest in getting stronger therefore the long proven methods for doing so are pointless.

As a professional "sports coach" (I worked as a college football strength coach, then for Athletes Performance training college players for the NFL combine, then as the strength coach for one of the largest professional MMA clubs in the country), I disagree with pretty much everything Lightheir states about strength training. He's a competitive triathlete with no interest in serious strength training, not sure how his opinion or experience is relevant for those with goals contradictory to his.
Ok disagree to disagree.

I'm currently a competitive triathlete but I was a serious weight training athlete in my younger days, so yes, I'm well familiar with the standard regimens of weight/strength training.

I am also an MD - and was quite humbled when rotating through the rehability and sports medicine units of hospitals during my training days. I used to think more along your guys' lines, focusing more on the low-rep power for all individuals, regardless of age, but it became very clear to me that you need much more careful and methodical approaches (starting with low-weight, higher reps strength training) for older or very new individuals to the sport.I absolutely would start off someone like my sedentary parents with assisted or no weights with more rather than few reps and build from there.

Your approach to strength training for a NFL combine player or a MMA athlete would be very different when applied to the OP or the typical noncompetitive athlete on this forum. (And FWIW, I'd bet our approaches to strength training and explosive power training would be very similar for NFL/MMA groups.)

And finally, it's more helpful to answer what you disagree about with my response to this prior statement :
"If one is older than 25, I think doing more than 20 of anything is unwise. You have a tendinitis/overuse injury that you'll have to wait out. And 3 sets of 50 reps? I'm suspecting they were not true chest-to-floor--another easy way to overuse--not doing the full, more difficult movemen]."
than using an ad hominen attack on someone's credibility. I have never seen any sports or medical evidence saying 20 reps of anything is unwise, for any group. (3 sets of 50 I'd agree is typically too many for the typical strength training regimen, unless you're a swimmer building swim-specific arm muscular endurance using a specific motion.)
It might be worth a step back.

99% of the population doesn't need to be able to do 50 push ups or bench press twice their body weight, and most don't really care to be able to do those things.

If they get into push ups, good for them. If they get into lifting large piece of iron and putting it back down again, good for them. It is all well past what is actually useful for most people. At that point you are not doing this for general health. So there is no point is arguing which is better: it just depends on what someone wants to do with their spare time.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Toons » Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:05 pm

Physical fitness=Mental Fitness, oh the power of discipline day in and day out, week in week out , month in month out,year in year out :happy
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by VictoriaF » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:51 pm

Fitness books warn that people are losing some percent of their muscle mass every year. Strength training helps to build muscle mass. I am trying to reconcile these two statements.
- Does it mean that strength training reduces the loss?
- Does it mean that one's personal maximum reduces with time, but strength training allows to aim for whatever the current maximum is?

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by abuss368 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 12:57 pm

VictoriaF wrote:Fitness books warn that people are losing some percent of their muscle mass every year. Strength training helps to build muscle mass. I am trying to reconcile these two statements.
- Does it mean that strength training reduces the loss?
- Does it mean that one's personal maximum reduces with time, but strength training allows to aim for whatever the current maximum is?

Victoria
Not if you play in the NFL. They only get larger, stronger, faster with age. How does that happen?
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by stoptothink » Fri Nov 22, 2013 1:51 pm

abuss368 wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:Fitness books warn that people are losing some percent of their muscle mass every year. Strength training helps to build muscle mass. I am trying to reconcile these two statements.
- Does it mean that strength training reduces the loss?
- Does it mean that one's personal maximum reduces with time, but strength training allows to aim for whatever the current maximum is?

Victoria
Not if you play in the NFL. They only get larger, stronger, faster with age. How does that happen?
If you consistently strength train, your strength will continue progress through your 40's or even more. The strongest guys in the world usually hit their strength peak in their late 30's. But yes, if you do absolutely nothing about it muscular atrophy usually begins in the mid-30's due to endocrinological changes. Strength training becomes much more important for overall health and safety as you get older.

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by caklim00 » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:31 pm

I would hate it and likely go into depression if I had no access to weights. I have to force myself to take a week off from lifting every 6 months or so.

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Jazztonight » Fri Nov 22, 2013 2:34 pm

Rodc wrote:It might be worth a step back.

99% of the population doesn't need to be able to do 50 push ups or bench press twice their body weight, and most don't really care to be able to do those things.

If they get into push ups, good for them. If they get into lifting large piece of iron and putting it back down again, good for them. It is all well past what is actually useful for most people. At that point you are not doing this for general health. So there is no point is arguing which is better: it just depends on what someone wants to do with their spare time.
Good points. You need to do what you are able to do. But hopefully we all agree that as we age we need to do something! We don't want to waste all that "spare time" (although I'm still not sure what that is since I never seem to have any of it).

I did a quick Google search on exercise/strength training/resistance training/aging etc., and you can imagine what showed up, articles from the Mayo Clinic and Harvard to the Surgeon General and Jack LaLanne, all recommending that as we age we must stay active and fit to maintain physical and mental health for as long as possible.

As we reach our retirement years and beyond with the hoped-for financial resources we strive for in this forum, we need to do whatever we can to be able to enjoy those resources.

I recently came back from a 15 day RT cruise from San Francisco to Hawaii. Aboard the ship, there are those who use the fitness & weight room, take advantage of the daily aerobics, spinning, and dance & stretching classes, and others who walk around the Promenade Deck (3 turns = 1 mile) or do laps in the pool. Then there are those whose exercise is pretty much limited to pushing themselves away from the many dinner and buffet tables. Sadly, you see a lot of people carrying portable oxygen tanks. (One of my goals on the cruise was to never use the elevator, just the stairs.)

Bodyweight exercises are what works for me.
btw, I turn 67 tomorrow. Today, I did my pull-ups, push-ups, and squats, along with my newly-added "superman" exercise for lower back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwYe98CPfXc
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by LadyGeek » Fri Nov 22, 2013 3:14 pm

Jazztonight wrote:btw, I turn 67 tomorrow. Today, I did my pull-ups, push-ups, and squats, along with my newly-added "superman" exercise for lower back:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwYe98CPfXc
Happy Birthday! Take the day off. :beer

Great timing, as I just did that exercise today. I didn't realize it was called "superman", as that's an exercise that's been around for years. It's great for realigning everything if you've been slouching in a chair all day - which is not good for your back.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by VictoriaF » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:20 am

Jazztonight wrote:btw, I turn 67 tomorrow. Today, I did my pull-ups, push-ups, and squats, along with my newly-added "superman" exercise for lower back
Happy birthday, Jazztonight. Enjoy the superman experience,

Victoria
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Rodc » Sat Nov 23, 2013 9:42 am

You need to do what you are able to do. But hopefully we all agree that as we age we need to do something!


Absolutely.

I have always been sort of a 90-95 percentile sort of person as far as overall exercise goes (well at least on the endurance side of things), so very active but nothing like some of the folks commenting on this thread. My mix of strength vs aerobic and what sort of strength and aerobic training has been all over the map, but with less strength training than aerobic training.

By age 50 three things became very clear:

1) I needed to focus more consistently on strength training
2) I needed to be better about making sure I did not over train (strength or aerobic)
and related
3) I needed to mix things up better

This latter for me means a mix of aerobic modalities so for example less long distance running, so mix in some short hard runs/hill sprints, stairmaster and biking (so for one thing I'm less good at any one of them), and a mix of body weight (push ups, pull ups etc) with some weights (Body by Science approach for now). I also either rock climb once a week or so in nice weather or go to the climbing gym (one benefit is this is something I can do with my kids).

I'm pretty happy on the aerobic and climbing side. Still finding my way on the strength training side.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by VictoriaF » Sat Nov 23, 2013 12:22 pm

stoptothink wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
Redstorm wrote:Image

I use one of these simple doorway units at home for pull ups and leg lifts and for variety, the larger unit at the local park
Do these units require assembly or fastening to the wall or to the door? Thank you,

Victoria
They take about 30sec to assemble and you do not have to fasten it to the wall. They are great and mine was purchased for like $9 at Ross. Caution, they will over time damage the area above your door frame.
My Iron Jim has just arrived. It took me about 15 minutes to assemble and install it; it was straight forward. With all my respect to the towel, Iron Jim does it better.

Thanks again,

Victoria
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by LadyGeek » Sun Dec 15, 2013 12:00 pm

Time for the 3 week spot check.

I'm cheating in a few exercises and my form isn't perfect, but I never drop my reps.
Jazztonight wrote:...Today, I did my pull-ups, push-ups, and squats, along with my newly-added "superman" exercise for lower back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwYe98CPfXc
This is a simple and very effective exercise. I'd like to point out that the "superman" technique is more difficult for females, as the balance point is different. Men balance on their chest, women balance on their hips. I can achieve a better balance point by pointing my arms towards my heels. IOW, a headfirst superman dive.

I'm offering this as a suggestion in case the arms forward position is too difficult to achieve. This isn't about strength, but where your body naturally wants to balance. I do both to be sure I get good positioning.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by abuss368 » Sun Dec 15, 2013 10:31 pm

LadyGeek wrote:Time for the 3 week spot check.

I'm cheating in a few exercises and my form isn't perfect, but I never drop my reps.
Jazztonight wrote:...Today, I did my pull-ups, push-ups, and squats, along with my newly-added "superman" exercise for lower back: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwYe98CPfXc
This is a simple and very effective exercise. I'd like to point out that the "superman" technique is more difficult for females, as the balance point is different. Men balance on their chest, women balance on their hips. I can achieve a better balance point by pointing my arms towards my heels. IOW, a headfirst superman dive.

I'm offering this as a suggestion in case the arms forward position is too difficult to achieve. This isn't about strength, but where your body naturally wants to balance. I do both to be sure I get good positioning.

Cheating near the end of a set is perfectly acceptable and is often encouraged as a higher intensity technique.

Here is another great high intensity technique that will let you see results faster. Do as many reps as you can (such as on your last set), and then have someone grab you by the hips while you are chinning, to help you with 2-3 additional "forced reps".

Another great way to increase the effectiveness and results, go to a workout store or gym store and by a set of wrist straps. They go around the wrists, you wrap the straps around the chin bar, and then rep. If you take a step back and think about it, your grip (which is a small and weaker body part) will give out before the "lats" (aka your back muscles). Thus you will get additional reps, and better reps with the straps and thus better results. The grip always fails first.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by LadyGeek » Mon Dec 16, 2013 1:00 am

Those are good points, but I'm working alone (it shouldn't stop others, though).

As for the wrist straps, the philosophy doesn't seem right to me. If one part of my body can't support an exercise, then I've reached a limit. I've got a good grip, but I do see your point.

I work on negative resistance for my pull/chin ups. Contract fast using a "1-2" count, then slow negative release on a "1-2-3-4" count. I'll also raise my legs horizontal to the floor to give the abs a workout.

Update: Clarified wording.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by abuss368 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 7:17 am

LadyGeek wrote:Those are good points, but I'm working alone (it shouldn't stop others, though).

As for the wrist straps, the philosophy doesn't seem right to me. If one part of my body can't support an exercise, then I've reached a limit. I've got a good grip, but I do see your point.

I work on negative resistance for my pull/chin ups. Contract fast using a "1-2" count, then slow negative release on a "1-2-3-4" count. I'll also raise my legs horizontal to the floor to give the abs a workout.

Update: Clarified wording.
Yes and no. Your grip may have reached a limit but your targeted muscle group - the back - has not. Wrist straps change that and allow for one to focus on the job at hand and not the grip on the bar. It further develops the mind to muscle connection.

Best.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Rodc » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:17 am

Here is another great high intensity technique that will let you see results faster. Do as many reps as you can (such as on your last set), and then have someone grab you by the hips while you are chinning, to help you with 2-3 additional "forced reps".
Working alone I presume you could use a stool to raise you up and then slowly let yourself down a few times.

At the gym you could move over to the lat pulldown station and do some at reduced weight.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Rodc » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:19 am

Your grip may have reached a limit but your targeted muscle group
You can also build a stronger grip by doing deadhangs to failure. You can do this at the end of the workout or on days you are not lifting, say after a run or bike.

This is a common rock climber technique for a stronger grip. For climbers a strong grip is more important that pullup ability.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by abuss368 » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:45 am

Rodc wrote:
Your grip may have reached a limit but your targeted muscle group
You can also build a stronger grip by doing deadhangs to failure. You can do this at the end of the workout or on days you are not lifting, say after a run or bike.

This is a common rock climber technique for a stronger grip. For climbers a strong grip is more important that pullup ability.
True. Also strongly consider barbell wrist curls.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Rodc » Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:50 am

abuss368 wrote:
Rodc wrote:
Your grip may have reached a limit but your targeted muscle group
You can also build a stronger grip by doing deadhangs to failure. You can do this at the end of the workout or on days you are not lifting, say after a run or bike.

This is a common rock climber technique for a stronger grip. For climbers a strong grip is more important that pullup ability.
True. Also strongly consider barbell wrist curls.
Or "Rollies". Take a wooden dowel, attach a length of cord or strap, attach other end to a weight (disk, dumbbell, etc.). Twist to roll up the weight, then slowly let weight down, twist to raise up, keep going until failure. For climbers just take a heavy dowel, drill a hole, girth hitch a long dynema sling to dowel, and girth hitch to weight, easy-peasy. Great for grip on ice tools as well seeing as how ice season is upon us. :)
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by selftalk » Mon Dec 16, 2013 3:40 pm

Is anyone using the bodybyscience workout method ? It`s pretty intense but I wonder if a person gets increased muscle size performing the weights this way? It`s supposedly a injury free workout.

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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Rodc » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:21 pm

selftalk wrote:Is anyone using the bodybyscience workout method ? It`s pretty intense but I wonder if a person gets increased muscle size performing the weights this way? It`s supposedly a injury free workout.
Do a search in this forum. There is a long thread.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by LadyGeek » Mon Dec 16, 2013 6:27 pm

Here is the thread: Body by Science Workout

I also realized that I'm doing my pull-up/chin-ups with my bare hands. I'll try using workout gloves to get a better grip.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by leonard » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:20 pm

LadyGeek wrote:Here is the thread: Body by Science Workout

I also realized that I'm doing my pull-up/chin-ups with my bare hands. I'll try using workout gloves to get a better grip.
Keep in mind that some thick padded gloves can actually make gripping more difficult. The heaving padding essentially increases the diameter of the bar you are gripping - which is more difficult.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Rodc » Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:37 pm

LadyGeek wrote:Here is the thread: Body by Science Workout

I also realized that I'm doing my pull-up/chin-ups with my bare hands. I'll try using workout gloves to get a better grip.
If my hands are sweaty I just toss a gym towel over the bar and hold the bar as usual.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by VictoriaF » Thu Dec 19, 2013 8:53 am

VictoriaF wrote:
stoptothink wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
Redstorm wrote:Image

I use one of these simple doorway units at home for pull ups and leg lifts and for variety, the larger unit at the local park
Do these units require assembly or fastening to the wall or to the door? Thank you,

Victoria
They take about 30sec to assemble and you do not have to fasten it to the wall. They are great and mine was purchased for like $9 at Ross. Caution, they will over time damage the area above your door frame.
My Iron Jim has just arrived. It took me about 15 minutes to assemble and install it; it was straight forward. With all my respect to the towel, Iron Jim does it better.

Thanks again,

Victoria
I have been using a pull-up bar for five weeks now. I can't measure my strength increase, but I feel great after each session. Thank you to Jazztonight and LadyGeek for helping me to get started,

Victoria
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Jazztonight » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:52 am

VictoriaF wrote: I have been using a pull-up bar for five weeks now. I can't measure my strength increase, but I feel great after each session. Thank you to Jazztonight and LadyGeek for helping me to get started,
Victoria
And because the bar is portable, you can take it with you should you ever move to Florida 8-)

Good work, Victoria! I look forward to seeing you progress. This is not a simple challenge you have taken on.
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by VictoriaF » Fri Dec 20, 2013 11:59 am

Jazztonight wrote:
VictoriaF wrote: I have been using a pull-up bar for five weeks now. I can't measure my strength increase, but I feel great after each session. Thank you to Jazztonight and LadyGeek for helping me to get started,
Victoria
And because the bar is portable, you can take it with you should you ever move to Florida 8-)

Good work, Victoria! I look forward to seeing you progress. This is not a simple challenge you have taken on.
Hi Jazztonight,

I think the critical factors for me sticking to my "program" were:
- Your report about using only four exercises and achieving great results.
- LadyGeek's comparison to a simple three-fund portfolio.
- My use of a very simple routine that fits my schedule.

My exercises are not at the level that you and others perform. But I bring myself to a high exertion level, feel great afterwards, need a 48-hour recovery, and look forward to the next session.

Thanks again,

Victoria
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Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by letsgobobby » Fri Dec 20, 2013 12:38 pm

Rodc wrote:
abuss368 wrote:
Rodc wrote:
Your grip may have reached a limit but your targeted muscle group
You can also build a stronger grip by doing deadhangs to failure. You can do this at the end of the workout or on days you are not lifting, say after a run or bike.

This is a common rock climber technique for a stronger grip. For climbers a strong grip is more important that pullup ability.
True. Also strongly consider barbell wrist curls.
Or "Rollies". Take a wooden dowel, attach a length of cord or strap, attach other end to a weight (disk, dumbbell, etc.). Twist to roll up the weight, then slowly let weight down, twist to raise up, keep going until failure. For climbers just take a heavy dowel, drill a hole, girth hitch a long dynema sling to dowel, and girth hitch to weight, easy-peasy. Great for grip on ice tools as well seeing as how ice season is upon us. :)
Can you comment more about the 'deadhang'? I have an ectomorph body type and wrists like a girl (no offense) - I can touch my index finger and thumb around my wrist. Forearm strength and grip strength limit me in many pulling exercises (pullups/chinups, deadlifts). I've used straps but prefer to go natural. I've been doing some curls etc and farmer's walks using extra towels, to increase the bar diameter to focus on grip/wrist/forearm strength, but perhaps the deadhangs would be something to try as well?

I am looking for functional strength, not Popeye guns.

Rodc
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Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2007 9:46 am

Re: Pull-ups and Push-ups

Post by Rodc » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:19 pm

letsgobobby wrote: Can you comment more about the 'deadhang'? I have an ectomorph body type and wrists like a girl (no offense) - I can touch my index finger and thumb around my wrist. Forearm strength and grip strength limit me in many pulling exercises (pullups/chinups, deadlifts). I've used straps but prefer to go natural. I've been doing some curls etc and farmer's walks using extra towels, to increase the bar diameter to focus on grip/wrist/forearm strength, but perhaps the deadhangs would be something to try as well?

I am looking for functional strength, not Popeye guns.
You and I are built alike.

You just grab a pullup bar and hang. You hang until your forearms/hands burn. You hang some more. You hang until you eventually fail. You might only be able to do one time to begin with. You go for time. You might work up to 3 goes with a modest rest in between.

You can also do it a little differently as well: set of three for the longest equal time you can manage. Say you hang 60sec and not too hard. Wait one minute, hang 60 sec, hard, wait one minute, hang 60 sec really hard or maybe you don't quite make it. Increase time as you get stronger.

I do them as the last item in a workout. I don't know if they are better than other forearm exercises, but are easy to put into your work out.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.

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