My New Car Buying Tips

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S&L1940
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by S&L1940 »

there was a news report (not sure Reuters or CBS) that GM is trying email only negotiating/exchanges with their prospective customers and selected dealers. the long range plan is to use the process throughout all their brands.
Don't it always seem to go * That you don't know what you've got * Till it's gone
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Dutch
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Dutch »

marc515 wrote:Maybe you could provide a specific question or two instead of "I don't see how this will get you the best price" so others could provide some more suggestions.
I don't have any questions. My process is similar to the OP. I never set foot in a dealership, unless it is to pick up the car.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by TomatoTomahto »

I know this is an old thread, but my question dovetails into it, so ...

I want to purchase a new car, but I want precisely what I want, so quite likely the car will have to be ordered.

Since there's no VIN, how do I lock the dealer into a binding agreement for the particular set of options, colors, etc.? I was intending to do an online "build your Volvo" and mail those specs to dealers and request their best OTD price. Will the "order form" for the car suffice as a binding agreement? Do I need an additional agreement that there won't be last minute changes when the car arrives?
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
TheOscarGuy
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by TheOscarGuy »

TomatoTomahto wrote:I know this is an old thread, but my question dovetails into it, so ...

I want to purchase a new car, but I want precisely what I want, so quite likely the car will have to be ordered.

Since there's no VIN, how do I lock the dealer into a binding agreement for the particular set of options, colors, etc.? I was intending to do an online "build your Volvo" and mail those specs to dealers and request their best OTD price. Will the "order form" for the car suffice as a binding agreement? Do I need an additional agreement that there won't be last minute changes when the car arrives?
Its all done in good faith. Nothing is binding. Carry your emails everywhere, and if someone asks you to share a lower offer (I had had one Dealer ask me to show him the offer, before he matched it), just show them the email. They know that you have multiple offers. If they try to screw you over, you will leave and go to the next dealer in line.

Believe me, you will end up with multiple offers all within the same price range. Unless you live in really remote location.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by TomatoTomahto »

That's all well and good, but what do I do if after waiting 3-6 months for my car, they add additional dollars to it? It's tough to say, "that wasn't our deal," and then wait another 6 months for the car from dealer 2.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
TheOscarGuy
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by TheOscarGuy »

TomatoTomahto wrote:That's all well and good, but what do I do if after waiting 3-6 months for my car, they add additional dollars to it? It's tough to say, "that wasn't our deal," and then wait another 6 months for the car from dealer 2.
I imagine they don't randomly place order on a new car, unless you are serious about buying. I am sure at that stage some paper work will be involved. If they are placing a special order for you with options you want, they would you to also have some skin in the game (downpayment, or signing some papers etc.).
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by TomatoTomahto »

TheOscarGuy wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:That's all well and good, but what do I do if after waiting 3-6 months for my car, they add additional dollars to it? It's tough to say, "that wasn't our deal," and then wait another 6 months for the car from dealer 2.
I imagine they don't randomly place order on a new car, unless you are serious about buying. I am sure at that stage some paper work will be involved. If they are placing a special order for you with options you want, they would you to also have some skin in the game (downpayment, or signing some papers etc.).
I would of course expect that we'd both sign paperwork specifying the options, price, etc. I expect that I'd have to make a deposit (what %?). When the car arrives, I probably have more skin in the game than the dealer does (he can sell the car to someone else; I'd have to wait x months). Is he bound to deliver a car specced as in the order form at the price on the form without additional fees?
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
jdb
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by jdb »

All good tips. The most important lesson is that neither the dealer nor the salesmen and certainly not the sales manager are your friends. I am embarrassed thinking of all the times I ended up over paying for a car by thinking they were my friends. By far best car buying experience for me was purchase of Tesla Model S online direct from manufacturer. No dealer, no sales manager, no salesman. No hassling over price. Delivered to my house where rep spent a couple hours showing me car operation details. Never intend to buy from a dealer again, looking forward to buying the Model X in 2015 through the internet and phone.
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ginmqi
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by ginmqi »

On reddit AMAs you read about like-able car salesmen who says not all car sales guy are pure Emporor Palpatine evil greed...and then you read about all the tricks and tips of getting best deal at car dealers. It's giving me a headache.

Maybe the plan is to just never buy from a dealer. I'm still driving my 1995 Accord 10 years after I first bought it in junior year of high school with the money I made busting tables every weekend for 2 years.

Unless GM/Ford/Toyota/Honda/etc. starts selling cars direct like Tesla is doing, I might just stay away the dealers!
Busting Myths
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Busting Myths »

jdb wrote:All good tips. The most important lesson is that neither the dealer nor the salesmen and certainly not the sales manager are your friends. I am embarrassed thinking of all the times I ended up over paying for a car by thinking they were my friends. By far best car buying experience for me was purchase of Tesla Model S online direct from manufacturer. No dealer, no sales manager, no salesman. No hassling over price. Delivered to my house where rep spent a couple hours showing me car operation details. Never intend to buy from a dealer again, looking forward to buying the Model X in 2015 through the internet and phone.
All this means is that Tesla kept the mark up instead of letting a dealer have it.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by TomatoTomahto »

jdb wrote:All good tips. The most important lesson is that neither the dealer nor the salesmen and certainly not the sales manager are your friends. I am embarrassed thinking of all the times I ended up over paying for a car by thinking they were my friends. By far best car buying experience for me was purchase of Tesla Model S online direct from manufacturer. No dealer, no sales manager, no salesman. No hassling over price. Delivered to my house where rep spent a couple hours showing me car operation details. Never intend to buy from a dealer again, looking forward to buying the Model X in 2015 through the internet and phone.
My next car will be a Tesla X, probably purchased out of state (if NJ persists with its nonsense). I'm not quite ready to buy one for my soon-to-be-driving daughter :D , so she'll have to drive an ICE as a first car.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
makelelerole
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by makelelerole »

Nice tips. When I purchased my new car, I mass emailed 4-5 general managers of the dealerships to put each of them on the spot, gave them exactly what I wanted, and solicited the best OTD price they could offer me. I went to the dealership whose manager gave me the best response (good price, little BS and to the point). May not have been the best way to buy a car, but it weeded out the dealerships that I knew wouldn't budge much and I was able to come across as a no-nonsense buyer.
Leesbro63
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Leesbro63 »

makelelerole wrote:Nice tips. When I purchased my new car, I mass emailed 4-5 general managers of the dealerships to put each of them on the spot, gave them exactly what I wanted, and solicited the best OTD price they could offer me. I went to the dealership whose manager gave me the best response (good price, little BS and to the point). May not have been the best way to buy a car, but it weeded out the dealerships that I knew wouldn't budge much and I was able to come across as a no-nonsense buyer.
I try to do that also. And if I pay $200 or $300 or even up to $750 too much, but get convenience, selection and no crap, I'm OK with not squeezing the last buffalo out of the dealer.
autonomy
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Re: Easy solution

Post by autonomy »

davebarnes wrote:
Go Blue 99 wrote:they are one of the few local dealerships that doesn't affix a dealer logo to the back of the car (I absolutely hate this).?
Me too. Here is what I do and have done for the last 4 cars purchased.
The sales guy hands you the contract to sign.
You add "Dealer agrees to not attach any dealer insignia or decals to any part of the car. If an insignia/decal is attached, dealer agrees to remove it and repair any damage to the car."
They hate this. But, they will agree.
One dealer who signed this and then attached a screw-on insignia had to remove it AND send the car to the body shop to fill in and paint the 2 small holes.
Usually, they just put a sticker on which can be easily peeled. If a dealer was putting 2 holes in the body of a new car, they would get hell.
autonomy
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by autonomy »

CoastRider wrote: "Dealer Prep." ($500 for a car wash and to put the floor mats in?!) I get that down to $100 or $200.
"Transportation Fee." ($200 to $500) Some will not budge on this, but try anyway.
"Documentation Fee." (Usually $500 for the guy to hit a few keystrokes on a computer, and print out the paperwork.) Ridiculous! $200, tops.
Dealer prep fee? If I'm buying a new car, it better look like new and wash should be free. Ever bought an item that someone charged you for washing before selling to you?
Doc fee - pure profit grab. It's the cost of doing business. OK, for $75 I'd let it go, but $200? No way.
keystone
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by keystone »

makelelerole wrote:Nice tips. When I purchased my new car, I mass emailed 4-5 general managers of the dealerships to put each of them on the spot, gave them exactly what I wanted, and solicited the best OTD price they could offer me. I went to the dealership whose manager gave me the best response (good price, little BS and to the point). May not have been the best way to buy a car, but it weeded out the dealerships that I knew wouldn't budge much and I was able to come across as a no-nonsense buyer.
Thanks to this thread and a few others on this site, this is basically what I did last month when I bought a new Honda Accord. I narrowed it down to 8 dealers within a 50 mile radius based on positive dealer reviews that I saw on Angie's List and Cars.com. Then I sent the same email to each of the dealers, to the attention of the Internet Sales Manager, stating exactly what I wanted (make, model, color), specified that I was not financing the vehicle or doing a trade-in and I requested that they provide me with their best out the door price. I also made it clear that I was getting bids from several dealers and would not negotiate over the phone or in-person, email only.

As expected, there were some dealers that were simply incapable of responding to my request. They would reply back that I needed to call them or come in for a test drive. I weeded those out immediately. I did get a few no nonsense replies and was quite pleased with the prices. I ended up going with the dealer that provided the best price, which was also the same dealer that responded within a matter of a minute to my request and gave me their out the door price quote. They made it clear in the email that there would be no games and that was the price I would pay.

I was still a little apprehensive when I went to the dealer, because you just never know if there will be games but it was incredibly painless. I was in and out of the dealer in less than 90 minutes with my new car and the price I paid was exactly what was quoted in the email. I also felt like I got a great price (I crushed the TrueCar target price by a lot, even better than I expected). It is possible that I could have squeezed out another $200 if I went back for another round of negotiations, but I was so impressed with the straightforward approach from the one dealer that I didn't even bother.
overst33r
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by overst33r »

Thanks to this thread and FW, I managed to buy a CRV for my sister this weekend.

She got a 2014 LX FWD w/tint for $22.4 OTD
leonard
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by leonard »

New Car dealers sell hundreds of cars a year. They have very effectively pointed the sales floor at the internet. They deal with the unique exceptions around all their models and all the financing options multiple times. Also, they have significant information that the buyer doesn't have on pricing. I know we believe that the internet has changed all that - but in my one attempt to buy a new car a few years ago - it was clear I simply didn't have access to the true margins they are operating with.

Average private party buyer buys a new car what - every 2-3 years.

For new cars, the deck is clearly stacked in the dealers favor. There is simply no way for the buyer to compete.

The best solution is a USED car. When dealing with another private party - the playing field is much more level.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
bigfun
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by bigfun »

For those who didn't get a response from some of the dealers, I might suggest starting your bid request with "I am ready to close this deal today". If you're getting quotes from dealers within 200 miles, that won't work. But perhaps when the dealer realizes they will move a car and not have to spend any time with you, it will motivate them to compete for your business. I suspect they'd rather spend their time with a customer who's not as firm, so their time is as valuable as yours.

This last time, I asked for OTD bids and completed the purchase in a single day, and I had my new car at 4PM. Could I have saved more $ if I spent more time? Maybe, but my vacation time is very limited, and I really don't enjoy shopping for anything, let alone cars!
mrehal
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by mrehal »

What if you had a trade in?
Do you allow the dealer to know you have one or do you wait and say "oh hey, I have this trade in..."
Ricola
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Ricola »

How would you rate Carsdirect no haggle purchase where they even deliver the car to your door, against the techniques described in this thread? Personally I am tired of the car buying games. With our autocentric society, cars now days are just a required appliance. I don't have to go through all of these shenanigans to buy a washer or refrigerator. Why do I have to spend so much time and effort buying a car. We recent sold car to Carmax. It was a nice experience, no games. I would consider buying from them in the future however they do not sell new cars in my area.
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denovo
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

leonard wrote:Also, they have significant information that the buyer doesn't have on pricing. I know we believe that the internet has changed all that - but in my one attempt to buy a new car a few years ago - it was clear I simply didn't have access to the true margins they are operating with.

Average private party buyer buys a new car what - every 2-3 years.

For new cars, the deck is clearly stacked in the dealers favor. There is simply no way for the buyer to compete.

.
Hi Leonard, As I indicated in my opening post and later on, I don't believe you should bother trying to figure out whether or not the car sale is profitable for the dealer or how much they purchased it for. You don't need that to get a good price. You just need to shop around them and force them to bid against each other to tease out the lowest price. It doesn't hurt to get the free true car pricing and beware of any public incentives from manufacturer to dealer, consumer.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
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denovo
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

mrehal wrote:What if you had a trade in?
Do you allow the dealer to know you have one or do you wait and say "oh hey, I have this trade in..."
Do not discuss trade-in's or financing until you settle on the rock bottom OTD price. Moreover, because there is a cost to turning around a car, if you want the maximum price, you should sell the car on your own.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
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denovo
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

Ricola wrote:How would you rate Carsdirect no haggle purchase where they even deliver the car to your door, against the techniques described in this thread? Personally I am tired of the car buying games. With our autocentric society, cars now days are just a required appliance. I don't have to go through all of these shenanigans to buy a washer or refrigerator. Why do I have to spend so much time and effort buying a car. We recent sold car to Carmax. It was a nice experience, no games. I would consider buying from them in the future however they do not sell new cars in my area.

You're not going to get the best price using any car-buying services. It's just a simple fact of life. The more time you put in, the better price.

P.S. I have negotiated the price of appliances too.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
leonard
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by leonard »

denovo wrote:
leonard wrote:Also, they have significant information that the buyer doesn't have on pricing. I know we believe that the internet has changed all that - but in my one attempt to buy a new car a few years ago - it was clear I simply didn't have access to the true margins they are operating with.

Average private party buyer buys a new car what - every 2-3 years.

For new cars, the deck is clearly stacked in the dealers favor. There is simply no way for the buyer to compete.

.
Hi Leonard, As I indicated in my opening post and later on, I don't believe you should bother trying to figure out whether or not the car sale is profitable for the dealer or how much they purchased it for. You don't need that to get a good price. You just need to shop around them and force them to bid against each other to tease out the lowest price. It doesn't hurt to get the free true car pricing and beware of any public incentives from manufacturer to dealer, consumer.
They don't appreciably bid against each other.

I went through this process several years ago. The dealers didn't "compete". They dithered a way with knocking a couple hundred bucks off the price. And, all the dealers were within a few hundred bucks of each other. No aggressive discounts due to that "competition".

And, the cost to the dealer makes a huge difference. I worked in a motorcycle shop (and had folks from the auto industry confirm the same). The "deal" is always measured against what they paid for the unit. You may want to believe that negotiating between dealers ferrets out the market price. But, in many cases , the dealer will make the somewhat uneconomic calculus using what they paid for the unit to determine if the offer is a good deal or not.

Used car is the way to go. Identify the make and model - mileage and conidition. Watch CL and be patient. Got a fantastic deal from a private party on a like new car this way. And, save thousands in the process.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
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denovo
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

leonard wrote:
denovo wrote:
leonard wrote:Also, they have significant information that the buyer doesn't have on pricing. I know we believe that the internet has changed all that - but in my one attempt to buy a new car a few years ago - it was clear I simply didn't have access to the true margins they are operating with.

Average private party buyer buys a new car what - every 2-3 years.

For new cars, the deck is clearly stacked in the dealers favor. There is simply no way for the buyer to compete.

.
Hi Leonard, As I indicated in my opening post and later on, I don't believe you should bother trying to figure out whether or not the car sale is profitable for the dealer or how much they purchased it for. You don't need that to get a good price. You just need to shop around them and force them to bid against each other to tease out the lowest price. It doesn't hurt to get the free true car pricing and beware of any public incentives from manufacturer to dealer, consumer.
They don't appreciably bid against each other.

I went through this process several years ago. The dealers didn't "compete". They dithered a way with knocking a couple hundred bucks off the price. And, all the dealers were within a few hundred bucks of each other. No aggressive discounts due to that "competition".

And, the cost to the dealer makes a huge difference. I worked in a motorcycle shop (and had folks from the auto industry confirm the same). The "deal" is always measured against what they paid for the unit. You may want to believe that negotiating between dealers ferrets out the market price. But, in many cases , the dealer will make the somewhat uneconomic calculus using what they paid for the unit to determine if the offer is a good deal or not.

Used car is the way to go. Identify the make and model - mileage and conidition. Watch CL and be patient. Got a fantastic deal from a private party on a like new car this way. And, save thousands in the process.
My experience has been different from yours. The end price from the last dealer was about $1,500 lower than the initial price from any of the six dealers I originally solicited bids from. That's pretty nice on a car that had a sticker around $20,000.00. I have had similar successes on more expensive cars to the tune of 3-4k. You're right that in the end, their prices tend to be close to each to other, because they all roughly paid the same for the car from the manufacturer. I don't expect a steep discount in the sense, that they will lose money on the sale nor should any one promise that.

I am not willing to turn this into a new used/new car debate, but I will say that when you purchase a used car, there is always a risk that you get a poorly maintained car, and sometimes poor maintenance may not show in inspections.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Ancal
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Ancal »

Just to chime in - I used a very similar technique to the OP's when purchasing my new car last year. It worked like a charm.

I'm not sure I agree with the objections here around relationships or time.

I live in a big city, so a relationship with a dealer means absolutely zero. The service department has nothing to do with the sales department. And I might go fifteen years between car purchases. The salesperson would be long gone.

More importantly, after I decided what car I wanted, the entire process took about two days of elapsed time (between sending the first email and purchasing the car) and about 15 to 20 minutes of actual "work" (cutting and pasting emails). I entered the dealership already having an email agreement, wrote the check, said "no thanks" to the person who tried to upsell me on everything, and left with a car. Total time in dealership was about 25 minutes. My friends have spoken about being "trapped" in dealerships for upwards of two hours - even up to four hours! :shock:
Ricola
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Ricola »

denovo wrote:
Ricola wrote:How would you rate Carsdirect no haggle purchase where they even deliver the car to your door, against the techniques described in this thread? Personally I am tired of the car buying games. With our autocentric society, cars now days are just a required appliance. I don't have to go through all of these shenanigans to buy a washer or refrigerator. Why do I have to spend so much time and effort buying a car. We recent sold car to Carmax. It was a nice experience, no games. I would consider buying from them in the future however they do not sell new cars in my area.

You're not going to get the best price using any car-buying services. It's just a simple fact of life. The more time you put in, the better price.

P.S. I have negotiated the price of appliances too.
I don't believe I will ever get the Best Price, but I do want to get a good price. What percent below invoice do you consider minimally good for say the average type vehicle, not a high demand over invoice type?
leonard
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by leonard »

denovo wrote:I am not willing to turn this into a new used/new car debate, but I will say that when you purchase a used car, there is always a risk that you get a poorly maintained car, and sometimes poor maintenance may not show in inspections.
And, with new, outright lemons and a laundry list of recalls from US domestic and foreign manufacturers. So, we run mechanical failure risks on both types of cars. Plus, you can minimize risk with an inspection. On the last used car I purchased - the owner literally had a full print out of the entire maintenance history of the car.
Leonard | | Market Timing: Do you seriously think you can predict the future? What else do the voices tell you? | | If employees weren't taking jobs with bad 401k's, bad 401k's wouldn't exist.
Sagenick48
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Sagenick48 »

I have bought my cars from the same dealer(not dealership the same guy) for 35 years, I call him up, tell him what I want, he gives me a price which I have verified in advance, and I pay it in cash. The time it takes for the whole transaction from making the call to picking it up is 2 hours. It is a lot easier and whatever I lose in dollars I'm make in less time spent and a lot less aggravation.
The market goes up, the market goes down.
Set40
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Set40 »

Recently had a tough (and miserable) experience grinding out a deal for a used vehicle that was priced right but dealer was full of snakes.

The manager stressed the point that they perform 100 pt inspection on all pre-owned vehicles. They detail the entire vehicle in & out. "It will look like this vehicle right here in the showroom when we're done!" They replace the brakes & tires if they meet certain specifications (these tires needed to be replaced). I strictly negotiated OTD pricing. After a long process I finally got them down to where I was comfortable. I was aggressive. As I was signing the contract, the manager mentioned that he couldn't replace the tires for that price. I picked the vehicle up and it was dirty. I can almost guarantee they did not check 100 things either.

My point is the OTD price is not the end-all be-all. They can still squeeze out profit. I took it as a learning opportunity for next time.
JoeliusZ28
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by JoeliusZ28 »

Has anyone had any luck using these tactics in conjunction with an employee discount? Where I'm from, I can usually get an employee or supplier discount (i work for a supplier) on just about anything im looking at.
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denovo
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

Set40 wrote:
My point is the OTD price is not the end-all be-all. They can still squeeze out profit. I took it as a learning opportunity for next time.
The title refers to new-car buying tips.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
mrehal
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by mrehal »

So, say I want to buy a car. I e-mail several dealers and ask them right away for the best OTD price. Does one try to counter this after the give you the offer? I understand taking it to several dealers and negotiating it down further. Once the dealer comes back with their "final offer", do you then say "oh btw I have this car I want to trade in, here are the specifics" ? This is all in using the online sales dept of course.

Any other tips if you were to go to the dealership in person? Should you take the car you don't plan to trade in?
I get selling it private party would get more money, but I still owe on my car and I heard this is a painful process to undertake on your own.
mrehal
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by mrehal »

Also, is it better to be a used car as a CPO?
Sorry, don't mean to hijack this message board, but I came across this in a timely fashion as I'm hoping to upgrade my vehicle soon.
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Bustoff
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Bustoff »

mrehal wrote:So, say I want to buy a car. I e-mail several dealers and ask them right away for the best OTD price. Does one try to counter this after they give you the offer?
The dealers will generally e-mail you a quote for the vehicle at very little if any discount.
Most of the time they will ask you to state the price point at which you will buy the vehicle.
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denovo
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

Bustoff wrote:
mrehal wrote:So, say I want to buy a car. I e-mail several dealers and ask them right away for the best OTD price. Does one try to counter this after they give you the offer?
The dealers will generally e-mail you a quote for the vehicle at very little if any discount.
Most of the time they will ask you to state the price point at which you will buy the vehicle.
And you say no. I had a dealer say he'd only give me a price if I came first to drive the dealer or at least have a chat with him over the phone. I said no to both, and told him he would be excluded from the opportunity to bid. He sent his price within the hour.
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denovo
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

Ricola wrote:
denovo wrote:
Ricola wrote:How would you rate Carsdirect no haggle purchase where they even deliver the car to your door, against the techniques described in this thread? Personally I am tired of the car buying games. With our autocentric society, cars now days are just a required appliance. I don't have to go through all of these shenanigans to buy a washer or refrigerator. Why do I have to spend so much time and effort buying a car. We recent sold car to Carmax. It was a nice experience, no games. I would consider buying from them in the future however they do not sell new cars in my area.

You're not going to get the best price using any car-buying services. It's just a simple fact of life. The more time you put in, the better price.

P.S. I have negotiated the price of appliances too.
I don't believe I will ever get the Best Price, but I do want to get a good price. What percent below invoice do you consider minimally good for say the average type vehicle, not a high demand over invoice type?
If you want the literal definition, at least historically, invoice price referred to the price the dealer paid for the car. Yes, there's stuff like holdback , but let's not get into the weeds. So if your question is should you expect to get below the cost dealer paid for it, erm, not likely, unless there are some kind of rebates in the picture. It's basically impossible to give rules of thumbs like this because demand matters for the car.
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denovo
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

leonard wrote:
denovo wrote:I am not willing to turn this into a new used/new car debate, but I will say that when you purchase a used car, there is always a risk that you get a poorly maintained car, and sometimes poor maintenance may not show in inspections.
And, with new, outright lemons and a laundry list of recalls from US domestic and foreign manufacturers. So, we run mechanical failure risks on both types of cars. Plus, you can minimize risk with an inspection. On the last used car I purchased - the owner literally had a full print out of the entire maintenance history of the car.
There's lemon laws and recalls are in the mix whether or not you buy used or new. What differentiates the two is that with a new car, I have a gurantee that someone will keep good maintenance for the life of the car. That person is me. Moreover your premise is that people should buy used because it's impossible to negotiate a good price on a car. My experience, and that of others who have posted, make that premise tenuous. There may be other reasons to buy used, because of the steep depreciation in the first years, but negotiations is not.
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leonard
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by leonard »

denovo wrote:
leonard wrote:
denovo wrote:I am not willing to turn this into a new used/new car debate, but I will say that when you purchase a used car, there is always a risk that you get a poorly maintained car, and sometimes poor maintenance may not show in inspections.
And, with new, outright lemons and a laundry list of recalls from US domestic and foreign manufacturers. So, we run mechanical failure risks on both types of cars. Plus, you can minimize risk with an inspection. On the last used car I purchased - the owner literally had a full print out of the entire maintenance history of the car.
There's lemon laws and recalls are in the mix whether or not you buy used or new. What differentiates the two is that with a new car, I have a gurantee that someone will keep good maintenance for the life of the car. That person is me. Moreover your premise is that people should buy used because it's impossible to negotiate a good price on a car. My experience, and that of others who have posted, make that premise tenuous. There may be other reasons to buy used, because of the steep depreciation in the first years, but negotiations is not.
One of the reasons for the steep depreciation is that people are overpaying for the new car. Part of the reason they are overpaying is due to the negotiating deck being stacked against them.

The negotiation and depcreciation issues are linked.
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Van-Guard23
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Van-Guard23 »

denovo wrote:I've done this a couple of times, and wonder what you guys think. I think I have got the best deal using this process.

First, before you negotiate you need to decide on a car, and when I mean decide, I mean make model, options and even the color and interior. You may have to flexible on color , but there's usually no difference on price for color. That means test-drive it and then leave the dealership without leaving your number, e-mail , or any contact info. The only way to get the very best deal is to deal with the internet sales department for two simple reasons. A. You can't shop around multiple dealers simultaneously when you are stuck in a showroom. B. They are always slow to respond to get "approval" from their manager for a price request because they are hoping you will get tired out and just give up. Negotiating via e-mail over a couple of days destroys their advantages.

The Negotiating Process
1. Search the dealer inventories online for the exact car you are looking for. They usually give you the VIN Number, and you can usually find the same car at 4-5 different dealerships within a 60 mile radius if you live in a decent sized metro area, if you are not asking for something really unique like a pink Aston Martin. Ask for price requests from those 5 departments through an online questionnaire. DO NOT PUT down a phone number, or if you have to, a fake one, only contact information you leave is an e-mail address, no residential or mailing address.

2. You'll get an initial contact from someone within 24 hours via e-mail once the phone line doesn't work which is the first thing they'll try. Make it clear that you will negotiate over e-mail only, are soliciting multiple dealers for the best price, and want the quotes to be the out-the-door-price which means after taxes and fees. They will need your zip code to calculate taxes so they give them that. Do not let them talk to you about financing or if you have a trade-in. Tell them you are negotiating on the price of the car only and that those things won't be discussed until you find the dealer with the best price. Do not let them lure you into a phone call or insist you come in and talk to them. Eventually, they will all let you contact them via e-mail if you insist
Thanks...my new car-buying skills are rusty. I still drive my 1997 Toyota 4Runner but plan on buying a new Toyota Highlander as a replacement vehicle that I hope to hold on to for the next 18-20 years.
I don't know how effective some of these steps would be in Hawaii though (on Oahu) as there would only be Servco Toyota serving the island (but the 3 or 4 Servcos are probably independently owned by different owners)...and the Highlander is quite popular. Nevertheless, I plan on making the purchase sometime in August-September timeframe. Oh yeah, there is also no Carmax nor any TrueCar dealers here either.
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denovo
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

Van-Guard23 wrote: Thanks...my new car-buying skills are rusty. I still drive my 1997 Toyota 4Runner but plan on buying a new Toyota Highlander as a replacement vehicle that I hope to hold on to for the next 18-20 years.
I don't know how effective some of these steps would be in Hawaii though (on Oahu) as there would only be Servco Toyota serving the island (but the 3 or 4 Servcos are probably independently owned by different owners)...and the Highlander is quite popular. Nevertheless, I plan on making the purchase sometime in August-September timeframe. Oh yeah, there is also no Carmax nor any TrueCar dealers here either.

4 or 5 dealers should be enough to run this strategy (hopefully the dealers are independently owned). I suspect that a lot of goods and services cost more in Hawaii, but you get to live in Hawaii so I don't feel too bad for you.
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Re: Easy solution

Post by archbish99 »

Go Blue wrote: The dealer frame is acceptable, because I can remove that in less than a minute. But most car dealers in my city attach some kind of sticker with the dealer name on it to the back of the car. Some of the designs are pretty ugly, and I've seen multiple examples where they are slanted or tilted. I really feel like it detracts from a good looking rear, and obviously the dealer is not paying you any type of advertising fee.
I hit this with my first new car. I waited until they were taking it to be cleaned up, and asked, "Now that it's not your car, would you mind taking your name off of it?" They grumbled, but did it.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by tj »

My sister is looking for a specific colored Passat with specific color interior with navigation and sun roof. I could only locate 2 VIN #s of her requirements out of hte 10 or so region VW dealers.

Because of the lack of supply, I am not sure if there is really room to negotiate, unlike a Civic where there is huge supply. i advised her to just use USAA Car Buying Service (Truecar).


Evidently the new Hondas in her opinion are "made of cheap materials", "not as smooth" and "very bouncy". She is going from a 2005 Civic and says that the new Accord felt very cheap compared to the Passat, and was also more expensive.

I warned her about the reliability of German cars, but she has decided on this car. :)
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by livesoft »

tj wrote:My sister is looking for a specific colored Passat with specific color interior with navigation and sun roof. I could only locate 2 VIN #s of her requirements out of hte 10 or so region VW dealers.

Because of the lack of supply, I am not sure if there is really room to negotiate, unlike a Civic where there is huge supply. i advised her to just use USAA Car Buying Service (Truecar).
It may be that the colors are unpopular, so the dealers do not order them. Thus, these cars may be dogs in the eyes of the dealer. I would approach this with a feint. I would go looking but not specify color and then say, "Oh, this car has a funky color, but I guess I could be convinced to take it off your hands if the price was right."
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rj49
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by rj49 »

1530jesup wrote:Thanks, Great thread.
You realize that this process can be applied to other major purchases that we do several times in our lifetime.
The one that comes to mind is the purchase of a mattress (we seem to buy one every 10-15 years) that has been discussed several times on BH.Org.
We buy a car every 5-8 years and have also leased. Whether by email, in person or by phone, we are out gunned because we may negotiate 10(?) times in our lifetime, but the dealer does this 10 times a day - every day... The dealer knows we hate the process and employs a "wear them down" strategy hoping we will just give in to get the process over with.

We have walked out of dealers - taking back the check we had already wrote - when they started with the add-ons to what was originally quoted as an out the door price. Using email up to the point when the deal is ready to close saves lots of time and effort and preserves our sanity..

Strange how people get serious about negotiating over a few hundred dollars for an occasional car purchase, but how many would negotiate over something like a financial advisor? "Larry, Rick agreed to manage my portfolio for .5% of assets plus all DFA funds at cost. If you want my assets you'll have to beat that". I would wager that more money is lost because of naive customers and aggressive salespeople in Fidelity and Edward Jones dealerships than on car lots, since the costs can compound and have such a large impact on one's financial future. But then if you go for the lowest-cost car equivalent of Vanguard, then it would probably be the oft-advised purchase of a quality used car, so all your hardball negotiating to save some money isn't outweighed by the automatic depreciation of 10% or so as soon as you leave the lot, and an additional 10% after you enjoy the new-car smell for a year.
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sunny_socal
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Invoice is the new MSRP

Post by sunny_socal »

I bought a new car today! 2015 Honda Accord Sport w/ 6 speed MT. :mrgreen:

Anyway, I roughly followed the advice on this thread:
- Identify the model I'm interested in
- Test drive this model at a dealer but don't commit to anything and walk early. (I was quoted the Truecar price at this point)
- Perform an online dealer search within 100 miles, find dealers with 'my' car in stock
- Send requests to all dealers via their website (ie. "request quote" button next to the vehicle specific info page)

Results:
- About 80% of the dealers responded in some way
- About 10% had a great offer, and another 10% were willing to match it
- A few dealers threw out the Truecar price as their offer (easy to cross reference)

I even switched models half way and resubmitted all the requests around noon on my shopping day. Again, it didn't take long to get some good offers, only a couple hours. With the base model I would have come in around $2000 below invoice. (Truecar is roughly invoice.) On the Sport model I came in about $1600 below invoice.

Summary: it pays to follow this approach! Use Truecar as your starting point, it will be close the Invoice price. Work down from there.

I wouldn't bother with Costco/USAA car buying services either, it seems they are also linked to Truecar. :?
Last edited by sunny_socal on Sun May 24, 2015 8:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hawaiishrimp
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Hawaiishrimp »

Too bad, this won't work for a Tesla. :oops:
I save and invest my money, so money can make money for me, so I don't have to make money eventually.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Hawaiishrimp wrote:Too bad, this won't work for a Tesla. :oops:
I don't miss all the strategy about buying a car. Tesla is sufficiently special that normal rules don't apply. They've had $5,000 of mine since October of 2013, and I'm still semi-patiently waiting. I finally have a pretty good idea of what the car will look like. :D
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Browser »

Just one more thing to keep in mind if you are shopping out-of-state for your new car, which is my case. Usually, you can pay for your car out-of-state without the sales tax, which you pay in your home state when you register the vehicle there. But not always. States with reciprocity agreements will collect the sales tax at point of sale and you get this as credit when you register home-state. And the real gotcha is county and local tax. As it turns out, you may have to pay that where you buy and car and you get no credit home-state. I'd like to buy a car in the Phoenix metro area where there are several dealers for the car I'm interested in. But if I do, I have to pay at least 2.5% in county/local sales tax even though I'm an out-of-state buyer. I've thought about trying to get these guys to knock that much off the lowest price I can get, but it's unlikely that I can drive down to a good price and then squeeze out another 2.5%+ on top of that. It's worth checking out if you are shopping out-of-state, but it can be difficult to get the correct information.
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