Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your house

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grok87
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Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your house

Post by grok87 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:12 pm

I thought bogleheads might be interested in this
...
http://hearusnow.org/posts/145-cutting_ ... _consumers
...
consumer reports wrote:Yanking out the copper means there is no going back for consumers who might be unhappy with their new fiber optic services. Unlike the old copper wire systems, FiOS doesn’t work during a power outage, for example.

Yanking the copper also means consumers can no longer get DSL Internet service. DSL is slower than FiOS or cable broadband, but it is also usually cheaper. For consumers who don’t feel the need for speed, DSL can be the best choice.

Verizon appears to be the only big phone company that is pulling out its copper lines — at least for now. That’s because Verizon is in the midst of a $23 billion program to convert its entire network to fiber optic lines.

As far as I'm concerned, they can have my copper wire when they pry it out of my cold dead fingers!
:)
If I save just one fellow boglehead from this phone company scam, then I will consider this post "mission accomplished"!
Cheers,
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freebeer
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by freebeer » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:17 pm

"your" copper wire...hm, I thought it was "their" copper wire...

Luke Duke
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by Luke Duke » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:25 pm

Nope, you own the wire in your house.

Sidney
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by Sidney » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:52 pm

My guess is that what the quote refers to is the copper line outside the house. Hard to envision Verizon having authority to pull wiring inside the house. Of course, if all the comes to the house is fiber, you are stuck with whatever they provision to the point where they terminate the line in from the street. If the power goes and that goes, having copper inside the house won't help.

We have VOIP over cable; I put the cable modem on a UPS to provide some backup to the phone going out during short power outages.
I always wanted to be a procrastinator.

leonard
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by leonard » Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:54 pm

Ridiculous article. I simply don't believe this is common.

No sane person is going to allow them to take wires out. There is no need to do it and it's just potential added damage that doesn't need to be incurred.

Also, I doubt the phone company is not going to recoup the up front labor in taking all the wiring out. I just don't see how this could be cost effective enough to be common.
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JMacDonald
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by JMacDonald » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:01 pm

That article is a year old. Verizon is not expanding FIOS beyond what it has already installed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verizon_FiOS#Availability
Verizon announced in March 2010 they were winding down their FiOS expansion, concentrating on completing their network in areas that already had FiOS franchises but were not deploying to new areas, which included the cities of Baltimore and Boston, who had not yet secured municipal franchise agreements.

I recently decided to have FIOS installed in my condo and have to say it is better than what I had before.
Best Wishes, | Joe

The Wizard
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by The Wizard » Mon Aug 26, 2013 4:09 pm

What's the word for this? Luddites?
I had my house upgraded in 2007 with FiOS. They run fibre from the pole to the Optical Network Terminal on the side of my house.
The copper wires for landline service inside my house connect to the ONT.
Except that I cancelled my landline shortly after since I use my cell phone for everything.
I just wanted the FiOS for fast internet and "cable" TV.
It's all good...
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Dave76
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by Dave76 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:36 pm

The Wizard wrote:
It's all good...


And expensive. Phone service is too expensive and cable networks air commercials. I thought the whole purpose of paying for cable meant not having to watch commercials. These days, if you want to watch a two hour movie on network X, you have to watch an hour of commercials. A 2 hour movie set within a 3-3.5 hour block is ridiculous. One recent example -- The TV show 'Vikings' aired on 5 minute intervals -- 5 minutes of Vikings, 5 minutes of commercials.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by pennstater2005 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 5:44 pm

Dave76 wrote:
The Wizard wrote:
It's all good...


And expensive. Phone service is too expensive and cable networks air commercials. I thought the whole purpose of paying for cable meant not having to watch commercials. These days, if you want to watch a two hour movie on network X, you have to watch an hour of commercials. A 2 hour movie set within a 3-3.5 hour block is ridiculous. One recent example -- The TV show 'Vikings' aired on 5 minute intervals -- 5 minutes of Vikings, 5 minutes of commercials.


Exactly. I called last December and told Verizon I wanted to cancel my phone/internet. They gave me a $30 monthly credit which means my average monthly bill including fees is around $13. I'll keep my old copper lines.
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seamonkey
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by seamonkey » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:12 pm

I wonder if it's just random people trying to profit from high copper prices.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by Call_Me_Op » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:13 pm

Too late, Grok, they already got to me! I asked them if they really needed to remove the copper lines, and they insisted that they did. But it does sound like a scam. That said, if I want the copper lines up, they'll go back up.
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cheese_breath
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by cheese_breath » Mon Aug 26, 2013 6:36 pm

There's no need to remove dead wire, just disconnect it so no signal runs through it. Seems they just want to lock you into Verizon.
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Ged
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by Ged » Mon Aug 26, 2013 9:54 pm

Good luck with that copper wire. Even if you still have a run of it up to your house it isn't going to do you much good in the long run because nobody is maintaining it or the equipment connected to it.

It's why I switched to VOIP. The crackling noise on the copper was bad enough it was nearly impossible to hear the other end. I tried calling and complaining about it and the op flat out said better switch to VOIP honey 'cause we aren't maintaining copper.

Copper is fast heading the way of the buggy whip and mangle.

grok87
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:09 pm

Sidney wrote:My guess is that what the quote refers to is the copper line outside the house. Hard to envision Verizon having authority to pull wiring inside the house. Of course, if all the comes to the house is fiber, you are stuck with whatever they provision to the point where they terminate the line in from the street. If the power goes and that goes, having copper inside the house won't help.

We have VOIP over cable; I put the cable modem on a UPS to provide some backup to the phone going out during short power outages.


Our power has been out fora week plus twice in the past couple of years
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

grok87
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:12 pm

leonard wrote:Ridiculous article. I simply don't believe this is common.

No sane person is going to allow them to take wires out. There is no need to do it and it's just potential added damage that doesn't need to be incurred.

Also, I doubt the phone company is not going to recoup the up front labor in taking all the wiring out. I just don't see how this could be cost effective enough to be common.

It may not be common, but it is happening in certain areas and may well spread.
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

grok87
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:13 pm

JMacDonald wrote:That article is a year old. Verizon is not expanding FIOS beyond what it has already installed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verizon_FiOS#Availability
Verizon announced in March 2010 they were winding down their FiOS expansion, concentrating on completing their network in areas that already had FiOS franchises but were not deploying to new areas, which included the cities of Baltimore and Boston, who had not yet secured municipal franchise agreements.

I recently decided to have FIOS installed in my condo and have to say it is better than what I had before.

Thanks-that's interesting.
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by Mudpuppy » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:22 pm

Sidney wrote:My guess is that what the quote refers to is the copper line outside the house. Hard to envision Verizon having authority to pull wiring inside the house. Of course, if all the comes to the house is fiber, you are stuck with whatever they provision to the point where they terminate the line in from the street. If the power goes and that goes, having copper inside the house won't help.

Most telcos use fiber for their trunks, so this is pretty much spot on. Once the telco infrastructure loses power, it doesn't matter what sort of connection you have from your house to the central office, you won't be able to route out of the CO. Modern telco systems are surprisingly delicate compared to older systems.

Sidney wrote:We have VOIP over cable; I put the cable modem on a UPS to provide some backup to the phone going out during short power outages.

A similar thing happens with cable company infrastructure since it's now mostly a hybrid of copper and fiber as well. My old UPS lasted longer than the cable company's backup power during power outages. The cable company would go down within about 45 minutes.

grok87
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:23 pm

The Wizard wrote:What's the word for this? Luddites?
I had my house upgraded in 2007 with FiOS. They run fibre from the pole to the Optical Network Terminal on the side of my house.
The copper wires for landline service inside my house connect to the ONT.
Except that I cancelled my landline shortly after since I use my cell phone for everything.
I just wanted the FiOS for fast internet and "cable" TV.
It's all good...

I agree my initial post did smack of ludditism. Let me expand...
I love my high speed Internet...from my cable company. Don't want fiber from the phone company. I want copper so if the power goes out I know my phone will still be on.

As far as "it's all good", well I'm not so sure. Competition is good. Co-opetition is not

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/magaz ... d=all&_r=0
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

grok87
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:25 pm

Dave76 wrote:
The Wizard wrote:
It's all good...


And expensive. Phone service is too expensive and cable networks air commercials. I thought the whole purpose of paying for cable meant not having to watch commercials. These days, if you want to watch a two hour movie on network X, you have to watch an hour of commercials. A 2 hour movie set within a 3-3.5 hour block is ridiculous. One recent example -- The TV show 'Vikings' aired on 5 minute intervals -- 5 minutes of Vikings, 5 minutes of commercials.

+1
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

grok87
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:27 pm

Call_Me_Op wrote:Too late, Grok, they already got to me! I asked them if they really needed to remove the copper lines, and they insisted that they did. But it does sound like a scam. That said, if I want the copper lines up, they'll go back up.

So what did they remove? The wire outside the house? Inside the house?
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

grok87
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:28 pm

cheese_breath wrote:There's no need to remove dead wire, just disconnect it so no signal runs through it. Seems they just want to lock you into Verizon.

Yep
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

grok87
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:31 pm

Ged wrote:Good luck with that copper wire. Even if you still have a run of it up to your house it isn't going to do you much good in the long run because nobody is maintaining it or the equipment connected to it.

It's why I switched to VOIP. The crackling noise on the copper was bad enough it was nearly impossible to hear the other end. I tried calling and complaining about it and the op flat out said better switch to VOIP honey 'cause we aren't maintaining copper.

Copper is fast heading the way of the buggy whip and mangle.

I suspect you are right. So far it's been fine. We'll see how it goes...
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

grok87
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Mon Aug 26, 2013 11:32 pm

seamonkey wrote:I wonder if it's just random people trying to profit from high copper prices.

The high copper prices may be a factor in their nefarious plan...
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

Mudpuppy
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by Mudpuppy » Tue Aug 27, 2013 1:45 am

Something to keep in mind, even if the copper is left behind, that does not mean it will be usable in the future. Insulation degrades, copper corrodes. This can be sped up by exposure to harsh conditions. Back when I still had a landline, one of my neighbors corroded our two lines by continuously draining his pool over the AT&T access panel rather than buy a 5 foot longer hose to reach the gutters.

Also, there's not much reclaimable copper in house phone lines. It's the old copper trunk lines that are usually the target of copper thieves. Granted, even pennies is something, but I doubt Verizon is getting rich on copper recycling.

johnubc
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by johnubc » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:54 am

The article is largely nonsense.

With FIOS, Verizon installs a battery back up in the home to power the equipment during a power outage. The copper requires the same back up, although it is not installed in your home, it is at the central office or another facility. Fiber is actually less susceptible to common outages such as caused by flooding.

My FIOS phone number is significantly cheaper than the old land line with more features.

They do not remove the copper from inside the home (or in the street) - the wires in your home are still used to deliver the phone service to each one of your phones. They do not remove those wires. Coax is reused to deliver cable to your TV. When they installed my FIOS, they did not remove the copper buried to the street.

Yes, Verizon is trying to move people to the FIOS network - the newer technology - from their perspective, it is the logical thing to do - move to the newer technology and remove the old technology (which is costing more to run and is inferior).

DSL - made me laugh.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by SteveB3005 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 6:51 am

I don't believe the story is representative of anything large. When Geraldo picks up the story, I'll rethink.

grok87
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:08 am

Luke Duke wrote:Nope, you own the wire in your house.

This is a slightly tricky issue. Here's my understanding.
1) You own the copper wire inside your house.

2) The phone company owns the wire from the pole to your house.
But...their ownership is regulated. They are or were a monopoly utility provider and legally required to provide a certain level of service. So they don't own it in the sense that they can do whatever they want with it. As the article points out they are required to allow competitors to provide phone service over that line in a way that is not required for the new fiber lines.
They can't take that right away unless you let them.
Cheers,
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grok87
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:16 am

johnubc wrote:The article is largely nonsense.

With FIOS, Verizon installs a battery back up in the home to power the equipment during a power outage. The copper requires the same back up, although it is not installed in your home, it is at the central office or another facility. Fiber is actually less susceptible to common outages such as caused by flooding.

My FIOS phone number is significantly cheaper than the old land line with more features.

They do not remove the copper from inside the home (or in the street) - the wires in your home are still used to deliver the phone service to each one of your phones. They do not remove those wires. Coax is reused to deliver cable to your TV. When they installed my FIOS, they did not remove the copper buried to the street.

Yes, Verizon is trying to move people to the FIOS network - the newer technology - from their perspective, it is the logical thing to do - move to the newer technology and remove the old technology (which is costing more to run and is inferior).

DSL - made me laugh.

Well experiences may vary. In some places they are removing the connecting wires to "the street" as you put it.
I guess the question is if someone at your residence wanted a copper wire phone or dsl service now or in the future from say a competitor to the phone company, would that be easily available. If the answer is no, then the phone company has decreased competition at your location and is on its way to locking in monopoly profits in the future.
Just wait...
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

johnubc
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by johnubc » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:26 am

grok87 wrote:
johnubc wrote:The article is largely nonsense.

With FIOS, Verizon installs a battery back up in the home to power the equipment during a power outage. The copper requires the same back up, although it is not installed in your home, it is at the central office or another facility. Fiber is actually less susceptible to common outages such as caused by flooding.

My FIOS phone number is significantly cheaper than the old land line with more features.

They do not remove the copper from inside the home (or in the street) - the wires in your home are still used to deliver the phone service to each one of your phones. They do not remove those wires. Coax is reused to deliver cable to your TV. When they installed my FIOS, they did not remove the copper buried to the street.

Yes, Verizon is trying to move people to the FIOS network - the newer technology - from their perspective, it is the logical thing to do - move to the newer technology and remove the old technology (which is costing more to run and is inferior).

DSL - made me laugh.

Well experiences may vary. In some places they are removing the connecting wires to "the street" as you put it.
I guess the question is if someone at your residence wanted a copper wire phone or dsl service now or in the future from say a competitor to the phone company, would that be easily available. If the answer is no, then the phone company has decreased competition at your location and is on its way to locking in monopoly profits in the future.
Just wait...


Any competitor can run copper wire to your home - your local telco owns those wires and pays for the rights of way to deliver the copper to your home. Nothing stops another utility from running their own wires to your home. Cable came along and ran coax to homes in the 80's and 90's. Even if Verizon were to rip up the wire from house to street - it is their wire. Another vendor cannot use that same wire even it if were in place.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by frugaltype » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:35 am

JMacDonald wrote:That article is a year old. Verizon is not expanding FIOS beyond what it has already installed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verizon_FiOS#Availability
Verizon announced in March 2010 they were winding down their FiOS expansion, concentrating on completing their network in areas that already had FiOS franchises but were not deploying to new areas, which included the cities of Baltimore and Boston, who had not yet secured municipal franchise agreements.

I recently decided to have FIOS installed in my condo and have to say it is better than what I had before.


Verizon is harassing (that's the word) the people in my community to change from copper to FIOS. I've been contacted 10-15 times this year by them, including people showing up on my doorstep. Also reps lying about having to change.

I'm not changing from copper due to power outages and the box that gets installed. It's crazy to go to a less reliable system in hurricane territory. Customers have to handle maintenance of the ugly big boxes, replacing batteries (of which there are many kinds), bringing it up after power failures, etc. If they discontinue copper service, I'll go to Cox for phone service. Cox isn't any better in power outages, but at least they maintain their boxes, and they haven't ticked off everyone here with copper.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Tue Aug 27, 2013 7:37 am

johnubc wrote:
grok87 wrote:
johnubc wrote:The article is largely nonsense.

With FIOS, Verizon installs a battery back up in the home to power the equipment during a power outage. The copper requires the same back up, although it is not installed in your home, it is at the central office or another facility. Fiber is actually less susceptible to common outages such as caused by flooding.

My FIOS phone number is significantly cheaper than the old land line with more features.

They do not remove the copper from inside the home (or in the street) - the wires in your home are still used to deliver the phone service to each one of your phones. They do not remove those wires. Coax is reused to deliver cable to your TV. When they installed my FIOS, they did not remove the copper buried to the street.

Yes, Verizon is trying to move people to the FIOS network - the newer technology - from their perspective, it is the logical thing to do - move to the newer technology and remove the old technology (which is costing more to run and is inferior).

DSL - made me laugh.

Well experiences may vary. In some places they are removing the connecting wires to "the street" as you put it.
I guess the question is if someone at your residence wanted a copper wire phone or dsl service now or in the future from say a competitor to the phone company, would that be easily available. If the answer is no, then the phone company has decreased competition at your location and is on its way to locking in monopoly profits in the future.
Just wait...


Any competitor can run copper wire to your home - your local telco owns those wires and pays for the rights of way to deliver the copper to your home. Nothing stops another utility from running their own wires to your home. Cable came along and ran coax to homes in the 80's and 90's. Even if Verizon were to rip up the wire from house to street - it is their wire. Another vendor cannot use that same wire even it if were in place.

Your last sentence is factually incorrect. I suggest you re-read the consumer reports article.
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by johnubc » Tue Aug 27, 2013 8:26 am

grok87 wrote:
johnubc wrote:
grok87 wrote:
johnubc wrote:The article is largely nonsense.

With FIOS, Verizon installs a battery back up in the home to power the equipment during a power outage. The copper requires the same back up, although it is not installed in your home, it is at the central office or another facility. Fiber is actually less susceptible to common outages such as caused by flooding.

My FIOS phone number is significantly cheaper than the old land line with more features.

They do not remove the copper from inside the home (or in the street) - the wires in your home are still used to deliver the phone service to each one of your phones. They do not remove those wires. Coax is reused to deliver cable to your TV. When they installed my FIOS, they did not remove the copper buried to the street.

Yes, Verizon is trying to move people to the FIOS network - the newer technology - from their perspective, it is the logical thing to do - move to the newer technology and remove the old technology (which is costing more to run and is inferior).

DSL - made me laugh.

Well experiences may vary. In some places they are removing the connecting wires to "the street" as you put it.
I guess the question is if someone at your residence wanted a copper wire phone or dsl service now or in the future from say a competitor to the phone company, would that be easily available. If the answer is no, then the phone company has decreased competition at your location and is on its way to locking in monopoly profits in the future.
Just wait...


Any competitor can run copper wire to your home - your local telco owns those wires and pays for the rights of way to deliver the copper to your home. Nothing stops another utility from running their own wires to your home. Cable came along and ran coax to homes in the 80's and 90's. Even if Verizon were to rip up the wire from house to street - it is their wire. Another vendor cannot use that same wire even it if were in place.

Your last sentence is factually incorrect. I suggest you re-read the consumer reports article.


Yes, may be my last sentence was not clear - A third party vendor is can lease access over the copper wire from the local carrier (Verizon, Att, etc) (ie, they cannot use the wire, they can lease access to it) - it is regulated that the local carrier must provide this access over copper. Nothing stops the local carrier from providing access to Fiber - or from the current regulators allowing the same access. I do not think the cable operators have to provide the same access - so the same regulation that is in place to stimulate competition stifles competition.

Competition - all I had was cable (Comcast) for tv and internet - too far for a DSL connection - at least FIOS has brought in competition to my area.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by The Wizard » Tue Aug 27, 2013 9:44 am

grok87 wrote:I agree my initial post did smack of ludditism. Let me expand...
I love my high speed Internet...from my cable company. Don't want fiber from the phone company. I want copper so if the power goes out I know my phone will still be on.

As far as "it's all good", well I'm not so sure. Competition is good. Co-opetition is not

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/magaz ... d=all&_r=0

To the extent that you NEED phone service during power outages, just get a cell phone, although sometimes during hurricanes and Katrina events they go out as well.
Where I am, I have less than one power outage per month and almost never more than a few hours...
Attempted new signature...

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by linguini » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:24 am

The Wizard wrote:
grok87 wrote:I agree my initial post did smack of ludditism. Let me expand...
I love my high speed Internet...from my cable company. Don't want fiber from the phone company. I want copper so if the power goes out I know my phone will still be on.

As far as "it's all good", well I'm not so sure. Competition is good. Co-opetition is not

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/03/magaz ... d=all&_r=0

To the extent that you NEED phone service during power outages, just get a cell phone, although sometimes during hurricanes and Katrina events they go out as well.
Where I am, I have less than one power outage per month and almost never more than a few hours...


I did have to use my cell after Sandy. I have a special AA battery to mini USB charger that I used to keep my phone charged, turned off internet and WiFi and Bluetooth so that each charge lasted days, and used my stock of batteries to keep in touch with the world for a week. It worked well and I was even able to ration some internet use out of it. I have since bought a solar/crank charger so that I can last even longer without rationing my emergency stock during severe blackouts lasting more than several days.

I suppose this advice is for people who are still on DSL and might not want to spend on cell phone contracts, though.

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cheese_breath
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by cheese_breath » Tue Aug 27, 2013 10:30 am

I'm glad we don't have Verizon. When we lose power my wife's phone usage increases tremendously. With nothing else to keep her occupied she turns to the telephone. I'm not a big fan of AT&T, but I'm glad we still have their copper wire land line.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by Calm Man » Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:55 am

Dave76 wrote:
The Wizard wrote:
It's all good...


And expensive. Phone service is too expensive and cable networks air commercials. I thought the whole purpose of paying for cable meant not having to watch commercials. These days, if you want to watch a two hour movie on network X, you have to watch an hour of commercials. A 2 hour movie set within a 3-3.5 hour block is ridiculous. One recent example -- The TV show 'Vikings' aired on 5 minute intervals -- 5 minutes of Vikings, 5 minutes of commercials.


Dave indeed. And TV programs have about 20 minutes of commercials per hour. I therefore do not watch any TV programs of any type unless it is sports or news shows where I have the remote to increase and decrease channels as soon as a commercial begins. If you like sports, try soccer. It has 45 minutes of commercial free viewing, a 15 minute intermission where you can do what you wish and then a final 45 minutes commercial free.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by ourbrooks » Tue Aug 27, 2013 5:26 pm

The only reason the "phone system" continues to work in times of power outages is because the phone company has big , 48 volt, batteries at the central office and backup generators for the batteries. It doesn't matter whether you have copper wires or fiber optic cables; if the phone company doesn't maintain the batteries and generators, you can't make calls when the power is out.

One of the reasons for switching to fiber optic systems is because they use less power so the batteries/generators can be smaller.

Believe it or not, cell phone systems also require electrical power at the towers. They also use batteries/generators to keep the power on. If the power outage lasts long enough, cell phones don't work any more, even though the battery in the phone is fully charged.

Something to consider before sticking with your copper wiring is that if you were a phone company with all of those expensive big batteries and generators and you ran short on power, who would you give priority to, the people with the one copper line or the people who'd upgraded to fiber optic and are buying all of those extra services?

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frugaltype
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by frugaltype » Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:56 am

ourbrooks wrote:The only reason the "phone system" continues to work in times of power outages is because the phone company has big , 48 volt, batteries at the central office and backup generators for the batteries. It doesn't matter whether you have copper wires or fiber optic cables; if the phone company doesn't maintain the batteries and generators, you can't make calls when the power is out.

One of the reasons for switching to fiber optic systems is because they use less power so the batteries/generators can be smaller.

Believe it or not, cell phone systems also require electrical power at the towers. They also use batteries/generators to keep the power on. If the power outage lasts long enough, cell phones don't work any more, even though the battery in the phone is fully charged.

Something to consider before sticking with your copper wiring is that if you were a phone company with all of those expensive big batteries and generators and you ran short on power, who would you give priority to, the people with the one copper line or the people who'd upgraded to fiber optic and are buying all of those extra services?


In my area, copper stayed up in the most recent power outage and FIOS and cell phones went down. I have no reason to believe the same central office batteries are available to both copper and FIOS systems, in fact logic would say they are not. When power came back, Verizon distributed to my neighbors with FIOS directions for how to bring their FIOS equipment up since it didn't come back at each house without the homeowners monkeying with it.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by Luke Duke » Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:25 am

frugaltype wrote:In my area, copper stayed up in the most recent power outage and FIOS and cell phones went down. I have no reason to believe the same central office batteries are available to both copper and FIOS systems, in fact logic would say they are not. When power came back, Verizon distributed to my neighbors with FIOS directions for how to bring their FIOS equipment up since it didn't come back at each house without the homeowners monkeying with it.


Did FIOS go down because people didn't have battery backup in their homes?

mptness
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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by mptness » Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:21 pm

This is especially alarming when you consider that copper wire was invented by two Bogleheads fighting over a penny. :D

Sorry but I couldn't resist.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by cheese_breath » Wed Aug 28, 2013 2:08 pm

mptness wrote:This is especially alarming when you consider that copper wire was invented by two Bogleheads fighting over a penny. :D

Who was Penny? What was her last name?

mptness wrote:Sorry but I couldn't resist.

Me either.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by Carlton » Wed Aug 28, 2013 4:18 pm

I have had FIOS since '96 and it has been fantastic. Internet speeds are rock steady 25/25 and never change, phone is crystal clear. Subscription is for POTS and internet only. I keep a spare ONT power supply battery in the basement and swap it out every few months so I'll always have phone service if needed, but my generator will power the ONT for extended Sandy-type outages. With the ludicrous taxes on the phone portion, I'll probably switch to VoIP like OOMA and keep internet only.

The battery will provide phone service for around 6 hours. and there is a "emergency" button on the ONT that can provide another 15 minutes of phone service. If there is a major storm that rips down wires, neither copper or fiber will work anyway.

The copper phone lines in my area were installed in the 1940's and most of branch lines off the main roads are rotten. Tons of noise, scratching etc. DSL was never a option, too far from the central office with load coils on the trunks.

So, is Verizon going to invest billions re-installing 1890's technology, or move forward and build out a modern fiber plant that supports huge bandwidth and is up-gradable for decades to come? I think it's a no-brainer.

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Post by pinecrest » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:26 pm

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Last edited by pinecrest on Mon Feb 24, 2014 5:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by Stonebr » Wed Aug 28, 2013 8:36 pm

Luke Duke wrote:Did FIOS go down because people didn't have battery backup in their homes?


In our old house in Massachusetts hurricane Sandy hit the neighborhood with a glancing blow, and power was out for several days. The dinky little FIOS battery lasted a few hours.
"have more than thou showest, | speak less than thou knowest" -- The Fool in King Lear

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:03 pm

Carlton wrote:
So, is Verizon going to invest billions re-installing 1890's technology, or move forward and build out a modern fiber plant that supports huge bandwidth and is up-gradable for decades to come? I think it's a no-brainer.

The only part i don't get is why (as per the title of this thread) they need to rip the copper wires off your house.
The answer is that they don't but it helps lock people into their FIOS by removing competition. It seems to be against the spirit of the law that forces them to lease those wires to competitors if the consumer asks for it.
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by dm200 » Wed Aug 28, 2013 9:28 pm

Verizon is aggressive and relentless in pushing to convert copperwire and DSL customers to FiOS. Several experiences:

1. I manage (part time) a small organization with a very small office. It has a single line Verizon business phone, and (on the single line) a separate fax number. The internet is Verizon DSL, on that (copper wire) phone line. I do not make many long distance calls, and I use ecg for those (very low cost). Our phone/DSL monthly bill is moderate to low. Once every week to ten days, I get a call from someone claiming to be from Verizon "promising" to lower our costs (they never can), or claiming (falsely) that we must move to FiOS, or calling to "schedule" our cutover to FiOS. Sometimes they actually come close to threatening us that all sorts of horrible things will happen if we don't convert right away. I used to get angry at this constant barrage of improper and unethical sales efforts (basically telling BIG lies), but now (since the calls come anyway and that always admit our current price is lower than what they propose), I calmly go through the whole thing. Top management at Verizon, I have to conclude, is behind this massive effort to move customers to FIOS, and must condone all of these improper and false statements their folks (and their outside telemarketers) are pitching.

2.In the aftermath of one of the storms last year, we had occasional scratchy phone connections at home. When my wife called for service, Verizon sent a FIOS" technician who tried to convince us to let him install FIOS. He claimed to be not "trained" in regular telephone troubleshooting. Another technician from Verizon claimed that the "old" technology was so out of date we needed to "upgrade". My wife told me she finally talked with a Verizon technician who said the old service should still work. The "scratch" connection has gone away.

I am NO expert in regulatory matters, but I have been told and/or read that normal (oldstyle copper wire) telephone service is highly regulated and any price increases must be approved by the state. Many other Verizon (or other phone company) services (such as FIOS) ate not so regulated and once they get you switched to such a product/service, they can charge whatever they want.

I agree with the post that speculates that Verizon wants to pull out whatever copper wire they can because that makes going to al alternate carrier more difficult.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by JMacDonald » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:02 pm

I live in a condo and FIOS was installed in the building some years ago. I did not get FIOS then as I really didn't see a need for it. After my brother had it installed in his house, I could see its value. So I recently had it installed. I went from basic phone (only local calls), DSL, and a standard definition TV using an antenna to having a full service phone, high speed wi-fi, and digital TV. The cost so far has not been that much more. The switch has been worth it. If Verizon were to raise the cost considerably, I do have options so I am not concerned about that. I am happy with the service.
Best Wishes, | Joe

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by siamond » Wed Aug 28, 2013 11:24 pm

I happen to know the topic extremely well, due to my line of work. No, I don't work for Verizon, but the company I work for provides high-speed equipment for their network (and many others worldwide). By the way, numerous service providers worldwide have similar plans.

This is NOT as black & white as some of you make it. The cost of operating copper lines is enormous for Verizon. This has nothing to do with the copper line hanging along your home. This has everything to do with the facilities (more than 10,000 of them), hosting the distribution frames painstakingly cross-connecting such lines to network elements (DSLAMs and SONET switches and Class5 telephony switches) which are nearly obsolete and totally sub-optimized. Oh, and all the disturbances on copper lines (cross-talk, etc) which are incredibly hard to troubleshoot. All of that (including quite some real estate) could be reclaimed for newer types of investment if copper lines would disappear over time.

Once the majority of the customers will have moved to fiber because it IS a much better service in a world of video-on-demand and multimedia at large, then the cost of continuing to operate copper will be a major burden on Verizon's bottomline. Guess who is going to pay for the lingering copper cost? The end customer. And increasingly the end customer using obsolete and sub-optimal copper local loops. Helping them to streamline their networks will benefit the customer at the end... It's just basic economics.

Frankly, the main rip-offs of those Telco companies have really little to do with Internet access, copper or fiber. The rip-offs are more about:
1. the wireline voice service which most of us couldn't care less about, and yet we continue to pay for it directly, or we indirectly subsidize it
2. the closed ecosystem of TV services which cable company and Verizon continue to try to push down our throat with horrendous monthly fees and downright obnoxious ads
3. the mind-boggling tariffs used on the wireless side

This is what makes me want to scream... Not copper moving to fiber...

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by engineer1969 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 6:32 am

We've had the fiber connection for years. As mentioned there is a battery which keeps you up for a few hours if there is a short disruption. We've experienced a couple long outages due to weather events and lost our freezer's contents. This urged me to buy an affordable portable generator. I payed the utility company to hook the generator into the house using an automatic switch over mechanism. All I need to do is go out and start the generator. Now we can run everything in the house except the air conditioner when we lose power. The added benefit we learned is the fiber connection is rock solid too! We have TV, internet and phone during our outages. Whatever powers the laser is far away from our home. I've also noticed the local cable company hooking up generators to their boxes around the neighborhood during extend outages which probably makes good business sense.

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Re: Don't let the phone co. rip the copper wires from your h

Post by grok87 » Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:19 am

siamond wrote:I happen to know the topic extremely well, due to my line of work. No, I don't work for Verizon, but the company I work for provides high-speed equipment for their network (and many others worldwide). By the way, numerous service providers worldwide have similar plans.

This is NOT as black & white as some of you make it. The cost of operating copper lines is enormous for Verizon. This has nothing to do with the copper line hanging along your home. This has everything to do with the facilities (more than 10,000 of them), hosting the distribution frames painstakingly cross-connecting such lines to network elements (DSLAMs and SONET switches and Class5 telephony switches) which are nearly obsolete and totally sub-optimized. Oh, and all the disturbances on copper lines (cross-talk, etc) which are incredibly hard to troubleshoot. All of that (including quite some real estate) could be reclaimed for newer types of investment if copper lines would disappear over time.

Once the majority of the customers will have moved to fiber because it IS a much better service in a world of video-on-demand and multimedia at large, then the cost of continuing to operate copper will be a major burden on Verizon's bottomline. Guess who is going to pay for the lingering copper cost? The end customer. And increasingly the end customer using obsolete and sub-optimal copper local loops. Helping them to streamline their networks will benefit the customer at the end... It's just basic economics.

Frankly, the main rip-offs of those Telco companies have really little to do with Internet access, copper or fiber. The rip-offs are more about:
1. the wireline voice service which most of us couldn't care less about, and yet we continue to pay for it directly, or we indirectly subsidize it
2. the closed ecosystem of TV services which cable company and Verizon continue to try to push down our throat with horrendous monthly fees and downright obnoxious ads
3. the mind-boggling tariffs used on the wireless side

This is what makes me want to scream... Not copper moving to fiber...

It's difficult to keep from sounding like a luddite. Again I am all in favor of the new technology. But as a consumer more choices are better than fewer. I don't think Verizon should be ripping down the copper wires when they install FIOS. That reduces peoples choices and is anti-competitive.
"...people always live for ever when there is any annuity to be paid them"- Jane Austen

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