Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

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lostInFinance
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by lostInFinance »

At the risk of slightly diverting the thread, I believe the NSA has some co-op/internship type program, where they'll pay for all four years of tuition. That could allow you off the hook for tuition, while allowing him to get some research exposure as an undergrad at the largest employer of mathematicians in the world.
lostInFinance
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by lostInFinance »

Valuethinker wrote: I should note that one of the best engineering schools in America is Annapolis (West Point is a fine school, but I am not sure how it ranks as an engineering school). NOT suggesting that's appropriate for OP's son, but just to encourage a bit of lateral thinking -- it probably doesn't come to first recall when someone says 'engineering schools'.
With very rare exceptions, such as a Phd track to be a professor at one of the service academies, commissioned officers in the US military are management. Most research and development in DOD gets done by contractors and civilians probably do the rest. If someone wanted to stay purely technical in their career, joining the military probably isn't the best career path, unless you need some form of scholarship to cover your undergrad degree.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

lostInFinance wrote:At the risk of slightly diverting the thread, I believe the NSA has some co-op/internship type program, where they'll pay for all four years of tuition. That could allow you off the hook for tuition, while allowing him to get some research exposure as an undergrad at the largest employer of mathematicians in the world.
For better or worse, I am not sure that my son's political beliefs are in line with this employment option. It is funny that you mention it, because the thought crossed my mind the other day as I was reading the newspaper.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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William4u
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by William4u »

NPR recently had a special on costs of state vs private college. A bunch of experts were lamenting that good students weren't trying for the best private schools due to costs. The experts said that the best private schools, ironically, were less expensive for most non-rich students that could get in (private schools give more money for aid). So, if someone can get into these elite schools, they said that there is a good chance that it will be less expensive than many public schools for many less wealthy families.

The NPR special was about how to spread the word on this fact to needy families.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

William4u wrote:The NPR special was about how to spread the word on this fact to needy families.
Hey, I hope that they didn't spread the word too well; it's a lottery and the more applicants there are, the less likely my son is to get in. :D
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by snowman »

Well, it depends. Yes, the Ivies give out most aid, but to get there is nearly impossible. That leaves roughly 90% of those good students with the choice of either good state school, or more expensive private school.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by snowman »

Tomato,

How did your son arrive at those 2 choices? I can see how Michigan would be a really good fit given his interests, but Yale seems less clear. I am just curious, that's all.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

snowman wrote:Tomato,

How did your son arrive at those 2 choices? I can see how Michigan would be a really good fit given his interests, but Yale seems less clear. I am just curious, that's all.
He went to Yale for two weeks this summer (for a Yale Young Global Scholars program in Grand Strategy). He felt very much at home there. He understands that a summer experience at a school can be non-representative, but there were quite a few Yale students around. He had an interview while there and it went well. His aunt taught at Yale for almost a decade and he knows a few students from his HS who went; positive reports from all.

From the gamesmanship angle: Yale is apparently moving to improve its science and math reputation, so he figures that gives him a bit of an applications boost.

From the practical angle: his alternative for Early Action was to do MIT, CalTech, and some other schools. MIT has its own application, so he would have had to do a Common Application in addition to an MIT-specific one while doing a very full course-load at his high school, Columbia Science Honors Program, and an online course at MIT (he doesn't believe in senioritis). He decided that he would do the two Common Application schools.

In the end, he will most likely wind up applying to the same schools he was considering, just in a slightly different order.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by sscritic »

lostInFinance wrote:
Valuethinker wrote: I should note that one of the best engineering schools in America is Annapolis (West Point is a fine school, but I am not sure how it ranks as an engineering school). NOT suggesting that's appropriate for OP's son, but just to encourage a bit of lateral thinking -- it probably doesn't come to first recall when someone says 'engineering schools'.
With very rare exceptions, such as a Phd track to be a professor at one of the service academies, commissioned officers in the US military are management. Most research and development in DOD gets done by contractors and civilians probably do the rest. If someone wanted to stay purely technical in their career, joining the military probably isn't the best career path, unless you need some form of scholarship to cover your undergrad degree.
Does going to a service academy require a 30 year commitment? Going to an academy does not mean it is your career path, Jimmy Carter and David Robinson.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by snowman »

That makes sense. You and your son are very methodical in your decision making process, so I knew there had to be good reasons behind the decision you made.

Given what you shared so far about your son, I honestly believe he will do well in life no matter where he goes to school. He clearly is very smart, and has an exceptional work ethic. That will work in his favor throughout his life.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by Valuethinker »

sscritic wrote:
lostInFinance wrote:
Valuethinker wrote: I should note that one of the best engineering schools in America is Annapolis (West Point is a fine school, but I am not sure how it ranks as an engineering school). NOT suggesting that's appropriate for OP's son, but just to encourage a bit of lateral thinking -- it probably doesn't come to first recall when someone says 'engineering schools'.
With very rare exceptions, such as a Phd track to be a professor at one of the service academies, commissioned officers in the US military are management. Most research and development in DOD gets done by contractors and civilians probably do the rest. If someone wanted to stay purely technical in their career, joining the military probably isn't the best career path, unless you need some form of scholarship to cover your undergrad degree.
Does going to a service academy require a 30 year commitment? Going to an academy does not mean it is your career path, Jimmy Carter and David Robinson.
SScritic

I follow and agree with your line of reasoning.

However it appears to me that if you *know* you are going down the technical track in life, your best bet is a good to very good undergrad school (possibly a state college) in that area, then a Phd from the most prestigious programme that will have you. On the basic presumption that the faster you get into grad school and start publishing,the better for your career.

That 4 year service obligation (5?) would slow that down. Additional postgrad work such as masters and phds has to be paid for with additional service years, as I understand it-- you don't want to be on the jobhunt at 33 say against bright young 26-27 year old civilians (for academic research jobs).

Generally in my (limited) observation the graduates of the US military academies had fine educations (this was as simple as having a couple of Marshall scholars on my floor in residence-- so an elite group to say the least).
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

snowman wrote:Given what you shared so far about your son, I honestly believe he will do well in life no matter where he goes to school. He clearly is very smart, and has an exceptional work ethic. That will work in his favor throughout his life.
Thank you snowman. I tell my son all the time that even if he doesn't get into his first choice, his second choice, etc., but winds up at his tenth choice, he will still get a great education and have many opportunities to excel. A 17-year old wants what he wants, but at some level he accepts the reality that if he sticks to his knitting, he will be at least okay, and quite likely much better than that.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by Valuethinker »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
snowman wrote:Tomato,

How did your son arrive at those 2 choices? I can see how Michigan would be a really good fit given his interests, but Yale seems less clear. I am just curious, that's all.
He went to Yale for two weeks this summer (for a Yale Young Global Scholars program in Grand Strategy). He felt very much at home there. He understands that a summer experience at a school can be non-representative, but there were quite a few Yale students around. He had an interview while there and it went well. His aunt taught at Yale for almost a decade and he knows a few students from his HS who went; positive reports from all.

From the gamesmanship angle: Yale is apparently moving to improve its science and math reputation, so he figures that gives him a bit of an applications boost.

From the practical angle: his alternative for Early Action was to do MIT, CalTech, and some other schools. MIT has its own application, so he would have had to do a Common Application in addition to an MIT-specific one while doing a very full course-load at his high school, Columbia Science Honors Program, and an online course at MIT (he doesn't believe in senioritis). He decided that he would do the two Common Application schools.

In the end, he will most likely wind up applying to the same schools he was considering, just in a slightly different order.
Here is how I break down 'prestige' universities in America. Take all of this with the grains of salt appropriate to an outsider to the US's view.

- Yale, Princeton, Harvard, Stanford - these 'pay out' in giving privileged access post graduation to Goldman Sachs, McKinsey etc. Also, 2-3 decades from now, you will find your classmates are at the top of American politics, business, Wall Street, arts, the judiciary etc. And the international classmates ditto in their own countries. See Oxford-Cambridge in the UK, and the Grandes Ecoles in France. There are plenty of people out there who will hire a Harvard or whatever grad out of snob value.

I am not sure if the other Ivy League schools and the other (fine) US schools pay out in quite the same way. Thinking Cornell, Pennsylvania, Columbia, Brown etc. Duke.

This is not about some superiority in what happens to you whilst you are there, it's about how the world values the fact that you got in, and graduated. The actual quality of education can be variable, as undergrad teaching is not the first and foremost thing on the minds of Harvard professors, say.

- it is more important, if you go on to postgraduate studies -- medicine, law, business school, Phd-- to have a highly ranked programme *then* than it is vis a vis undergrad. American law a friend of mine (who was in mid life career change) told me that your career is defined in America by your 2nd year summer job, and then your first full time law job, and going to a top 10-15 law school really counts. I know when Canadian universities hire economics Phds what they really want is a top US economics school (Harvard, Chicago etc.)-- undergrad irrelevant (and Canadians preferred, because fewer visa issues and more likely to stay)

- if one's goal is excellence of learning in science or mathematics as an undergrad, then you throw in MIT, Caltech to that list, probably some others I don't know
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by Professor Emeritus »

[quote=".[/quote]

From what I've read, MIT does balance the gender mix of incoming students, which is perhaps the only deviation it makes from a pure meritocracy (which is not to malign their female students; they are all perfectly first-rate academically, it's just that they're drawn from a smaller pool). Caltech is the pinnacle of meritocracy (which it shares with only Coopers Union and possibly some other small schools) in that nothing (URM, development, athletics, legacy, not even child of faculty) will get you accepted ahead of another student who is better suited academically. Sadly, there are Ivies where up to 40% of their admissions go to students who would not otherwise be accepted.

.[/quote]

Please please please do not confuse the available selection instruments for undergraduate students with a "meritocracy". 38 years in academia and I KNOW we still have no idea of what constitutes real "merit". We argue about merit on promotion and tenure committees. At best merit is a multi dimensional matrix
If people could really evaluate merit even in a simple environment , there would be no bad 1st round draft choices. Very very highly paid experts spend countless hours examining the candidates and they still pick flops.
Academics are much more complicated and we have much less data.

Bogleheads know that there are simply fields where you cant know the future. Student selection among top students falls in that area
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by VictoriaF »

Valuethinker wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:
snowman wrote:Tomato,

How did your son arrive at those 2 choices? I can see how Michigan would be a really good fit given his interests, but Yale seems less clear. I am just curious, that's all.
He went to Yale for two weeks this summer (for a Yale Young Global Scholars program in Grand Strategy). He felt very much at home there. He understands that a summer experience at a school can be non-representative, but there were quite a few Yale students around. He had an interview while there and it went well. His aunt taught at Yale for almost a decade and he knows a few students from his HS who went; positive reports from all.

From the gamesmanship angle: Yale is apparently moving to improve its science and math reputation, so he figures that gives him a bit of an applications boost.

From the practical angle: his alternative for Early Action was to do MIT, CalTech, and some other schools. MIT has its own application, so he would have had to do a Common Application in addition to an MIT-specific one while doing a very full course-load at his high school, Columbia Science Honors Program, and an online course at MIT (he doesn't believe in senioritis). He decided that he would do the two Common Application schools.

In the end, he will most likely wind up applying to the same schools he was considering, just in a slightly different order.
Here is how I break down 'prestige' universities in America. Take all of this with the grains of salt appropriate to an outsider to the US's view.

- Yale, Princeton, Harvard, Stanford - these 'pay out' in giving privileged access post graduation to Goldman Sachs, McKinsey etc. Also, 2-3 decades from now, you will find your classmates are at the top of American politics, business, Wall Street, arts, the judiciary etc. And the international classmates ditto in their own countries. See Oxford-Cambridge in the UK, and the Grandes Ecoles in France. There are plenty of people out there who will hire a Harvard or whatever grad out of snob value.

I am not sure if the other Ivy League schools and the other (fine) US schools pay out in quite the same way. Thinking Cornell, Pennsylvania, Columbia, Brown etc. Duke.
...
- if one's goal is excellence of learning in science or mathematics as an undergrad, then you throw in MIT, Caltech to that list, probably some others I don't know
The recommendations vary depending on the major, but Harvard/Princeton/Stanford are universal. For an engineering degree Caltech and MIT are great choices. Below them would be Carnegie Mellon and Michigan. I would not associate Yale with strong technical education, but it has a great name, and the OP has done his research.

Brown, Duke, Pennsylvania, etc., are further down, in the "top-20" group.

Victoria
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by Professor Emeritus »

In terms of quality education the first question to ask is who teaches the Freshman physics majors. Most physics majors have AP credits in physics so theya re ready to be taught by a top flight person who cares about the field. If they assign the best senior faculty to that job it is a good department. If they assign adjuncts, lecturers or Grad students stay away.

My own department (not physics) is very careful to assign the first course for majors to our best faculty member. It pays off.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by VictoriaF »

Professor Emeritus wrote:In terms of quality education the first question to ask is who teaches the Freshman physics majors. Most physics majors have AP credits in physics so theya re ready to be taught by a top flight person who cares about the field. If they assign the best senior faculty to that job it is a good department. If they assign adjuncts, lecturers or Grad students stay away.

My own department (not physics) is very careful to assign the first course for majors to our best faculty member. It pays off.
A self-motivated student can get courses with the best professors from Coursera and choose a university with superior research opportunities.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by travellight »

Op, there is nothing wrong with going to Yale even if it is not as good as the others in math/physics. My friend's daughter did freshman year last year there and reports were absolutely glowing. I think Yale falls into that name brand prestige with Harvard/Princeton/Stanford and for the very prestigious jobs and schools later, that can matter. There IS a chance that he will better define his ultimate interests over the next four years and it can change and being at a well rounded overall school can be a good thing.

My son is a year behind yours in school with similar interests in STEM but he likes all the other liberal arts as well and my reach list would be all the top 10 prestige/Ivies plus Cal Tech/MIT/Harvey Mudd, with even a random application to Oxford or Cambridge..... just for fun. We also see it as a lottery ticket with no expectations to win but you might as well give it a shot.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

travelligh wrote:We also see it as a lottery ticket with no expectations to win but you might as well give it a shot.
Travellight, as Wayne Gretzky said: "You miss 100% of the shots you don't take." Or, as the lottery says, "You've got to be in it to win it." Good luck to yours when the time comes (and the time does creep up on you).
travellight wrote: There IS a chance that he will better define his ultimate interests over the next four years and it can change and being at a well rounded overall school can be a good thing.
My son's non-STEM side was active at Yale when he did the "Studies in Grand Strategy" thing (http://globalscholars.yale.edu/programs ... program-gs).
The Studies in Grand Strategy (GS) session of the Yale Young Global Scholars Program is designed for students with interests in international relations and security. The session emphasizes leadership development, and draws on historical examples and contemporary issues to help students think strategically and negotiate potential responses to complex international dilemmas.
It was very challenging and very few students got a good night's sleep for the two weeks; the program is known for it. It is relatively selective (~20%), but you can't know if you don't apply. I recommend it highly to any students/parents of students, even if they're not primarily interested in international relations. The course was a good part of my son's decision to apply to Yale.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by Professor Emeritus »

VictoriaF wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:In terms of quality education the first question to ask is who teaches the Freshman physics majors. Most physics majors have AP credits in physics so theya re ready to be taught by a top flight person who cares about the field. If they assign the best senior faculty to that job it is a good department. If they assign adjuncts, lecturers or Grad students stay away.

My own department (not physics) is very careful to assign the first course for majors to our best faculty member. It pays off.
A self-motivated student can get courses with the best professors from Coursera and choose a university with superior research opportunities.

Victoria
If you are dealing with a rote subject in which the student has nothing to add you might be right. I never taught such a subject and IMHO good universities do not teach that way.
Good universities teach students how we came to know what we think we know and what the problems were along the way.
They teach epistemic and aleatory uncertainty from the very beginning. This kind of process knowledge is critical to quality research and researchers.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by travellight »

That looks like an amazing program, tomato! Thanks for posting the link.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by VictoriaF »

Professor Emeritus wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:In terms of quality education the first question to ask is who teaches the Freshman physics majors. Most physics majors have AP credits in physics so theya re ready to be taught by a top flight person who cares about the field. If they assign the best senior faculty to that job it is a good department. If they assign adjuncts, lecturers or Grad students stay away.

My own department (not physics) is very careful to assign the first course for majors to our best faculty member. It pays off.
A self-motivated student can get courses with the best professors from Coursera and choose a university with superior research opportunities.

Victoria
If you are dealing with a rote subject in which the student has nothing to add you might be right. I never taught such a subject and IMHO good universities do not teach that way.
Good universities teach students how we came to know what we think we know and what the problems were along the way.
They teach epistemic and aleatory uncertainty from the very beginning. This kind of process knowledge is critical to quality research and researchers.
You mentioned Freshmen courses, and those are widely available in Coursera and other MOOCs. If a premier university assigns an inferior teacher to the Freshmen physics or another discipline, a student can get epistemic and aleatory uncertainty by watching Coursera videos of some of the best professors in the field. This would add extra load on the student's time, but I was specifically referring to a motivated student.

Victoria
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by Professor Emeritus »

VictoriaF wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:In terms of quality education the first question to ask is who teaches the Freshman physics majors. Most physics majors have AP credits in physics so theya re ready to be taught by a top flight person who cares about the field. If they assign the best senior faculty to that job it is a good department. If they assign adjuncts, lecturers or Grad students stay away.

My own department (not physics) is very careful to assign the first course for majors to our best faculty member. It pays off.
A self-motivated student can get courses with the best professors from Coursera and choose a university with superior research opportunities.

Victoria
If you are dealing with a rote subject in which the student has nothing to add you might be right. I never taught such a subject and IMHO good universities do not teach that way.
Good universities teach students how we came to know what we think we know and what the problems were along the way.
They teach epistemic and aleatory uncertainty from the very beginning. This kind of process knowledge is critical to quality research and researchers.
You mentioned Freshmen courses, and those are widely available in Coursera and other MOOCs. If a premier university assigns an inferior teacher to the Freshmen physics or another discipline, a student can get epistemic and aleatory uncertainty by watching Coursera videos of some of the best professors in the field. This would add extra load on the student's time, but I was specifically referring to a motivated student.

Victoria
Rote courses are available, they simply are not the same thing as quality higher education. Teaching is not just "watching and listening" Courses don't just teach"stuff". they teach the process of questioning and learning. I recall a freshman course taught around Steve Brush's book "The Kind of Motion We Call Heat: A History of the Kinetic Theory of Gases in the Nineteenth Century". The goal was to understand how and why scientists think what they think is correct.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

travellight wrote:That looks like an amazing program, tomato! Thanks for posting the link.
I see that they've added a Session on "Science, Policy, and Innovation" which wasn't available last year.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by VictoriaF »

Professor Emeritus wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
Professor Emeritus wrote:In terms of quality education the first question to ask is who teaches the Freshman physics majors. Most physics majors have AP credits in physics so theya re ready to be taught by a top flight person who cares about the field. If they assign the best senior faculty to that job it is a good department. If they assign adjuncts, lecturers or Grad students stay away.

My own department (not physics) is very careful to assign the first course for majors to our best faculty member. It pays off.
A self-motivated student can get courses with the best professors from Coursera and choose a university with superior research opportunities.

Victoria
If you are dealing with a rote subject in which the student has nothing to add you might be right. I never taught such a subject and IMHO good universities do not teach that way.
Good universities teach students how we came to know what we think we know and what the problems were along the way.
They teach epistemic and aleatory uncertainty from the very beginning. This kind of process knowledge is critical to quality research and researchers.
You mentioned Freshmen courses, and those are widely available in Coursera and other MOOCs. If a premier university assigns an inferior teacher to the Freshmen physics or another discipline, a student can get epistemic and aleatory uncertainty by watching Coursera videos of some of the best professors in the field. This would add extra load on the student's time, but I was specifically referring to a motivated student.

Victoria
Rote courses are available, they simply are not the same thing as quality higher education. Teaching is not just "watching and listening" Courses don't just teach"stuff". they teach the process of questioning and learning. I recall a freshman course taught around Steve Brush's book "The Kind of Motion We Call Heat: A History of the Kinetic Theory of Gases in the Nineteenth Century". The goal was to understand how and why scientists think what they think is correct.
If the question is if the good professors worth it, I am in agreement with you. If the question is whether it's better to go to Harvard/Stanford/Princeton where a less than an excellent professor teaches Freshman physics or to a top-twenty school with the world-class teaching of Freshman physics, I would advise to go to the former and supplement physics in other ways.

Are you familiar with Coursera? Their lectures are not batch sessions of watching and listening; they are interrupted with pop-up questions and quizzes, and great professors with extensive experience of teaching live courses know which parts to emphasize and explain.

Victoria
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by Professor Emeritus »

VictoriaF wrote:
If the question is if the good professors worth it, I am in agreement with you. If the question is whether it's better to go to Harvard/Stanford/Princeton where a less than an excellent professor teaches Freshman physics or to a top-twenty school with the world-class teaching of Freshman physics, I would advise to go to the former and supplement physics in other ways.

Are you familiar with Coursera? Their lectures are not batch sessions of watching and listening; they are interrupted with pop-up questions and quizzes, and great professors with extensive experience of teaching live courses know which parts to emphasize and explain.

Victoria
[/quote][/quote][/quote]

I've watched every change in distance learning over the past 35 years. There is a sophisticated review of Coursera at http://karsenti.ca/archives/RITPU_VOL10 ... C_ENvf.pdf
The independent research base on its effectiveness is very limited
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by LadyGeek »

Discussions on Coursera should be continued in another thread. Either start a new thread, or post in an existing one: coursera site:bogleheads.org - Google Search
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by travellight »

I was surprised that your kid did not do the Science one, Mr. Tomato, until I read that 2014 is the inaugural year for that course. THAT explains it! .... although I must say that the two non-science ones were equally appealing in the descriptions. Heck, I'd like to take those courses!

Also, relative to Stanford's, this is a relative bargain..... 5k versue 11+K.
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fishnskiguy
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by fishnskiguy »

Professor Emeritus wrote:In terms of quality education the first question to ask is who teaches the Freshman physics majors. Most physics majors have AP credits in physics so theya re ready to be taught by a top flight person who cares about the field. If they assign the best senior faculty to that job it is a good department. If they assign adjuncts, lecturers or Grad students stay away.

My own department (not physics) is very careful to assign the first course for majors to our best faculty member. It pays off.
Bingo.

Probably the best advice I've seen on school selection for the really, really bright.

Chris
Trident D-5 SLBM- "When you care enough to send the very best."
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

I promised to update: son was accepted early to Yale. UMichigan has not notified yet (they seem to be a week behind schedule).

:sharebeer

Son is jubilant.

He'll figure out the next steps tomorrow. He has a pretty good sense that he will be happy at Yale, but it doesn't hurt to have Plans B and C in case he discovers issues during the deeper dive that he can do now that he's been accepted (accepted student weekends, overnights, shadow a student, etc.).
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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englishgirl
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by englishgirl »

TomatoTomahto wrote:I promised to update: son was accepted early to Yale. UMichigan has not notified yet (they seem to be a week behind schedule).

:sharebeer

Son is jubilant.

He'll figure out the next steps tomorrow. He has a pretty good sense that he will be happy at Yale, but it doesn't hurt to have Plans B and C in case he discovers issues during the deeper dive that he can do now that he's been accepted (accepted student weekends, overnights, shadow a student, etc.).
Congrats to him!! :beer
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travellight
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by travellight »

Congratulations!!! This is so exciting for him. You must be so proud.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Thank you for the congratulations. This seems to be a banner year for his school and nearby ones. He is out having a celebratory dinner with some of his closest friends.

I'm glad to be able to say it here, where it's anonymous and mostly adults lurk, and I don't feel that I'm making a kid feel bad. One parent blasted FB with celebration about her child, even though we had been requested by the school to have some consideration for those whose news wasn't what they had hoped to hear. Most of these kids will wind up in a great school (I kidded my son that his 15th choice was better than where I went to school) and will probably have wonderful lives; it's just that some of them don't need to watch someone else's victory lap right now.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

PS it was nice to notice that the kids have been very supportive and reassuring to their classmates whose early decisions didn't go well, on Facebook and elsewhere. In the case of the one parent who went over the top in her high fives, her son was the exact opposite and went out of his way to be humble.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
letsgobobby
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by letsgobobby »

Awesome, and thanks for the update.
Rodc
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by Rodc »

Excellent news.

Sounds like a great kid all around. You must be very proud. I would be.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
msj16
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by msj16 »

Congratulations and well deserved for the initiative and hard work that was shown!
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Rodc wrote:Excellent news.

Sounds like a great kid all around. You must be very proud. I would be.
He is a wonderful kid. Frankly, I think there are so many ways to go astray today that it's a miracle that some of these kids make it in one piece. I am proud beyond words of him and the way he makes his choices. He and his girlfriend just passed their one year anniversary (in dog years, that's 7 years; in teenage years, it's infinite); their relationship is like something I didn't have until my 20's, they are considerate, warm, and respectful of each other.

I'll stop now, I'm starting to gush. :oops:
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
travellight
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by travellight »

Did you or your son ever go to the College confidential website, Tomato? I recently discovered it and it is pretty interesting. I thought most of the kids were really awesome with good wishes to those who got in from those who were deferred or rejected.
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inbox788
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by inbox788 »

TomatoTomahto wrote:I promised to update: son was accepted early to Yale.
Congratulations! Glad he got into a decent backup school. Let us know how he does with the match schools.... :wink:
papiper wrote:For dream schools Physics/Math -drop Yale and add Stanford. Why not Princeton? world renowned for Physics/Math and close to you.
Ged wrote:20 Yale University
Did he apply early anywhere else beside UMichigan?

"Single-Choice Early Action"
http://admissions.yale.edu/faq/single-c ... #t184n1810
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

travellight wrote:Did you or your son ever go to the College confidential website, Tomato? I recently discovered it and it is pretty interesting. I thought most of the kids were really awesome with good wishes to those who got in from those who were deferred or rejected.
I went there frequently (mostly as a lurker) in the process of learning about schools and the admissions process. There are some very knowledgable people there who give freely of their time and expertise... it reminds me of someplace else but I can't put my finger on it. :D
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

inbox788 wrote: Did he apply early anywhere else beside UMichigan?

"Single-Choice Early Action"
At one time he considered applying also to UVA, another school he could apply to at the same time within the rules, but decided to leave it at Yale and UMichigan.

For any number of reasons, I think he will probably apply to Princeton, Columbia, and MIT now, and possibly Harvard.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
snowman
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by snowman »

Congratulations to you and especially your son, Tomato! I am very happy for both of you. Make sure you don't turn down alumni interview once you apply to other schools on your list.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

snowman wrote:Congratulations to you and especially your son, Tomato! I am very happy for both of you. Make sure you don't turn down alumni interview once you apply to other schools on your list.
Thank you. My son has had 3 interviews to date (2 of them with alumni (Yale and MIT)), and he feels that he benefited from them. He usually gets a bit nervous beforehand. I have the sense that his interviews and essays will represent "his voice" better now that there is less pressure.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
snowman
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by snowman »

Little bit of nervousness is good - it means he is taking it seriously. My wife has been interviewing kids this time of year for many years. She is their biggest fan, and the usual nervousness goes out the window in the first 5 minutes. From that point on, it's a chance for them to talk about their life, and to ask any questions they may have about school. Applicants that turn down alumni interview don't realize they are hurting their chances in today's ultra-competitive admission process. Don't let that happen to your kid!
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

snowman wrote:Little bit of nervousness is good - it means he is taking it seriously. My wife has been interviewing kids this time of year for many years. She is their biggest fan, and the usual nervousness goes out the window in the first 5 minutes. From that point on, it's a chance for them to talk about their life, and to ask any questions they may have about school. Applicants that turn down alumni interview don't realize they are hurting their chances in today's ultra-competitive admission process. Don't let that happen to your kid!
We figure that he can only be helped by an interview. I don't know how to say this delicately: many STEM kids are socially limited. One of my son's "selling points" is that he's a normal teenager who just happens to be very good at math and physics (and works hard at them), but he enjoys ice hockey with his friends, spending time with his girlfriend, watching Homeland, and any number of other "normal" activities. An interview is a good way for him to make his normality clear, indirectly, without possibly sticking his foot in his mouth by bringing it up in an essay.

I think on a 9-point scale, he probably gets a 7 or 8 (maybe a 6 at worst). I think the alumni interviewers will usually leave the meeting thinking "he's a nice kid, personable, I hope he gets in."

I can imagine that it's been (usually) a very pleasant way for your wife to give back to her community by doing interviews. I was speaking with a doctor of mine the other day, who does interviews, and his face lit up when he discussed it. It's quite a responsibility, but he really enjoys doing it and has been doing it for some 15+ years.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

I think this is the final status update: After due deliberation about applying to additional schools (Harvard, Princeton, MIT, and Columbia), my son this morning decided that he will be attending Yale.

This might seem an odd choice for a Physics/Math kid, but there are a number of reasons that he decided this way, and in the end it boiled down to
  • Of the kids he knows (a few dozen in total) who have/are attending each of those schools, he much prefers the Yale kids.
  • Yale's treatment of undergraduate students
  • A smaller math department, with first-rate professors, probably will expand his opportunities relative to schools with a large number of math undergrads. He won't have a chance to try out for Harvard's Math 55 course, but Yale's Math 230/231 course isn't exactly chopped liver either.
  • He likes the idea of residential college at Yale.
  • An over-riding sense that, having won the lottery, why buy another ticket?
As his father, I couldn't be happier. I tried not to sway him, but I think he made the right choice for him.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Valuethinker
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by Valuethinker »

TomatoTomahto wrote:I think this is the final status update: After due deliberation about applying to additional schools (Harvard, Princeton, MIT, and Columbia), my son this morning decided that he will be attending Yale.

This might seem an odd choice for a Physics/Math kid, but there are a number of reasons that he decided this way, and in the end it boiled down to
  • Of the kids he knows (a few dozen in total) who have/are attending each of those schools, he much prefers the Yale kids.
  • Yale's treatment of undergraduate students
  • A smaller math department, with first-rate professors, probably will expand his opportunities relative to schools with a large number of math undergrads. He won't have a chance to try out for Harvard's Math 55 course, but Yale's Math 230/231 course isn't exactly chopped liver either.
  • He likes the idea of residential college at Yale.
  • An over-riding sense that, having won the lottery, why buy another ticket?
As his father, I couldn't be happier. I tried not to sway him, but I think he made the right choice for him.
Unless he pursues postgrad work in a very specialized field (and even then, it's really only for Phd admittance-- where he did his Phd, and what he did for his Phd will matter then) no one will ever really care whether Yale has the best physics/ math department, or only number 5 (or 10).

What they will see is that he went to *Yale*-- all the people who read his CV in the decades to come. Just like any number of US presidents, Supreme Court justices etc. etc.

And what really matters is that he is *happy* there. Has a good time, makes some good friends (a good education we can take as read-- he's not doing a bird subject, and it's a good university so the teaching and the level will be sufficiently high).

As parents, I am sure you are very proud ;-). Also we can all hope that he is happy there ;-).
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Thanks Valuethinker. We kind of gloss over some of the US Presidents... 'nuff said :D

There are so many kids (a few of whom we know) who will be waiting anxiously for the next 3 months to see what their options will be. And, there will be some incomprehensible admissions decisions (both positive and negative), some of which we've already seen (a stunning candidate rejected at Stanford, for example). I hope that everyone gets into a school that will satisfy their needs and wants. Good luck to all.

And thank you everyone for your well wishes.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid

Post by VictoriaF »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
  • An over-riding sense that, having won the lottery, why buy another ticket?
As his father, I couldn't be happier. I tried not to sway him, but I think he made the right choice for him.
Congratulations with winning the lottery! It's your and your wife's achievement as well as your son's.

Happy New Year,
Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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