Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Also, look into Honors Programs in the different public universities. http://publicuniversityhonors.com/new-t ... -category/
The U Mass Honors program allows you to take classes at four other prestigious colleges in the area - Amherst College, Hampshire College, Mount Holyoke College, and Smith College.
The U Mass Honors program allows you to take classes at four other prestigious colleges in the area - Amherst College, Hampshire College, Mount Holyoke College, and Smith College.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
May I be so bold as to offer a suggestion? I would encourage him towards engineering - he can earn a good salary right out of the box and most likely have his employer pay for graduate degrees. He can work in either the private or public sectors. Going the physical sciences or math routes pretty much locks him into the academic world and unending studies before (perhaps) getting a faculty job.
- or_investing
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Thanks. Nice to read about your experience. Every 1st-hand perspective helps paint the full view.spotty_dog wrote:
I attended Lewis & Clark College, Reed's neighbor and sometime competitor (which, unlike Reed, offers merit scholarships), and acquired a BA in Physics. The other physics majors who graduated with me were half women, and we had a very strong role model in one of our professors (she's still there and it looks like they have since hired a second woman.) Because the classes were tiny (we graduated about 10 majors my year, which was the biggest class in years; the most advanced courses were held even if there were only two of us enrolled) we got a lot of one-on-one interaction and mentoring. Nearly all of us could find a place in a research lab over the summer if we wanted and could even have some experimental input -- I earned authorship status on a published paper as a junior for my contributions to my lab's work.
I feel like the liberal arts education gave me a breadth of education that stood me in good stead when I ended up pursuing nothing resembling physics. My classmates went into a range of careers, about half of them earned PhDs (and many earned other degrees or multiple degrees), and several have high-profile and extremely laudable careers now.
Anyway, just thought I'd throw that out there, that small schools can be good options -- especially for women in science.
This space reserved for the yet-unwritten ultimate investing and personal finance truism.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
That must have been a pretty old catalog you were reading.frugaltype wrote:I would prefer that all admissions be based on merit, but I will just note that for decades the number of women admitted to MIT was capped at something like 7% of the people admitted, and CalTech (I remember this line closeto verbatim from the catalog) said "Women are not admitted as undergraduates and only in exceptional circumstances to the graduate school."
Caltech started admitting undergraduate women in 1970.
Today, 40% of the undergrads are women.
Might be fun to read college catalogs from 100 years ago, and spot all of the practices that would be unthinkable today.
- frugaltype
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Yes, indeed. I am very old and 1970 is only 43 years ago.House Blend wrote:That must have been a pretty old catalog you were reading.frugaltype wrote:I would prefer that all admissions be based on merit, but I will just note that for decades the number of women admitted to MIT was capped at something like 7% of the people admitted, and CalTech (I remember this line closeto verbatim from the catalog) said "Women are not admitted as undergraduates and only in exceptional circumstances to the graduate school."
Caltech started admitting undergraduate women in 1970.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
No point even applying to Harvard if he didn't like the atmosphere. He might find similar feelings at Princeton and Yale (I don't know). If he is aiming at that bracket he ought to think about Stanford. (I put Harvard Princeton Yale Stanford in a class by themselves in terms of the doors that they could open in his life, albeit many of those doors are *not* about science and engineering careers, and really, it would be better to go to Law School (H/Y/S) or Business School (H/S) or Phd (all 4) than undergrad if one had to choose between the 2-- I imagine ditto for medical school).TomatoTomahto wrote:And that's what makes horse races. Son visited MIT and came away from it enthused; it resonated with him. Visited Harvard during the same trip and texted his Mom (who was sitting 2 feet away) during the Info session: "Could this place be any more pretentious?" The schools all have different vibes, but it is also the case that a particular day, collection of students, your mood, etc., can sometimes swing the vibe another way. Who's to say that if the visit were the following day my son wouldn't have felt differently? I think he'd probably feel the same way, but there's really no way of knowing.TT wrote:This is an excellent point.nimo956 wrote:I just want to stress that the top-ranked school may not necessarily be the best fit for your child as an individual. It really requires a level of honesty and introspection that he may not be willing to admit at this age. When I was his age I thought the world was my oyster, I am going to do whatever I'm interested in, and there's no one who can tell me to do differently. The truth though is that a lot of these schools like MIT are extremely cut-throat. There's a lot of pressure to keep up with and compete with other students who are probably at the genius level (like future Fields Medal/Nobel Prize/MacArthur Genius Award level). They load up on 7-8 honors level classes per semester, get straight A's in all of them, take courses simultaneously that are supposed to be sequentially, are Putman Fellows, etc. This could make your son feel like he needs to keep up. He'll overextend himself, do poorly, and then start to feel inferior/depressed. I've personally known people this has happened to at MIT. Let me tell you that a C GPA at MIT doesn't mean much compared to an A from a slightly lower ranked school when looking for a job or to go to graduate school. It could be beneficial to consider some of these lower ranked schools, or perhaps small liberal arts colleges where there is more individual attention. I'm not saying that this will definitely happen to your son, but I feel it's an important point to consider.
My son was accepted to MIT's MS Mechanical Engineering program and did not accept the offer as he felt there was an "elitist attitude that resonated in the atmosphere"
He did attend Stanford and was very successful and happy there. Fit is important. You son should feel there is a good fit without too much pressure from dad.
One thing that I think is possibly more telling than the "visit impression:" my son knows kids who have gone to many of the schools, and he makes inferences based on who went where, how happy they are, and where they fall in the spectrum of being similar to him. That analysis was consistent with his trip impression
Look it's MIT is clear-- he liked the vibe and it's an amazing school.
Question then is what are the 'safety' schools? Some good suggestions here.
If he can take the discipline, he should consider Annapolis-- they'd be very interested in his ice hockey I bet. I think the Navy obligation thereafter is 5 years? So at 27-28 he will have a first class engineering degree and real experience leading and managing teams, that most 28 year olds just don't have.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I think there is a good possibily of a physics major going into software engineering with relatively small change.02sbxstr wrote:May I be so bold as to offer a suggestion? I would encourage him towards engineering - he can earn a good salary right out of the box and most likely have his employer pay for graduate degrees. He can work in either the private or public sectors. Going the physical sciences or math routes pretty much locks him into the academic world and unending studies before (perhaps) getting a faculty job.
I am a great believer that most of us don't wind up doing anything much related to our undergrad (and that's even true of engineers) and so we should in undergrad pursue what we really love. I have a friend who is a brilliant engineer, consulted to NASA at one point, but he wishes he had done physics in undergrad instead of engineering.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Generally I would advise against big urban schools (eg NYU). Having attended 2 -- undergrad and postgrad. The problem is the student body lives scattered, and there isn't much campus life especially at weekends. Columbia might be OK (Morningside Heights is really its own special area of Manhattan)-- not sure. Imperial College London is one of the foremost science and engineering universities in the world, ranking up with Oxford and Cambridge, but it suffers from being in the middle of South Kensington (think Park Avenue in NYC).papiper wrote:For dream schools Physics/Math - drop Yale and add Stanford. Why not Princeton? world renowned for Physics/Math and close to you.
For schools that are backup, look for great reputation and strong research in those majors, but a little easier to get into
Penn State
NYU
Carnegie Melon
Cornell
A big part of the student experience is the social side of it, and that gets diffused in a big city. You really want a 'campus university'. MIT and Harvard certainly have that atmosphere. I don't know how Carnegie Mellon works on that basis. Cornell can be depressing in winter, I gather, but it is on its own.
As a graduate student this matters much less. But just as an undergrad, a time in life when you make fast friendships which often do last a lifetime. You want to be living around other students, where you can just 'drop by' and study together, go out for beers, blow off steam.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
My wife and I have both had good careers in software development (hers was more along the strategic and management side; I still enjoyed writing code). Son is a good code writer, but not a developer, and we've emphasized to him that it's a great skill to have "on the side" in furtherance of a career in whatever.Valuethinker wrote:I think there is a good possibily of a physics major going into software engineering with relatively small change.02sbxstr wrote:May I be so bold as to offer a suggestion? I would encourage him towards engineering - he can earn a good salary right out of the box and most likely have his employer pay for graduate degrees. He can work in either the private or public sectors. Going the physical sciences or math routes pretty much locks him into the academic world and unending studies before (perhaps) getting a faculty job.
I am a great believer that most of us don't wind up doing anything much related to our undergrad (and that's even true of engineers) and so we should in undergrad pursue what we really love. I have a friend who is a brilliant engineer, consulted to NASA at one point, but he wishes he had done physics in undergrad instead of engineering.
It seems to me that physics/math students can go almost anywhere (economics, finance, engineering seem to have a lot of them). He interned at a hedge fund last year and did some data mining/extraction there; he does not think hedge funds are in his future, but it was interesting and he met lots of bright kids from Brown.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I will diss a couple of places.
Well, one category of places. I'm sure a lot of schools are not safe, but I would have serious concerns about a daughter going to Annapolis, West Point, etc. And a son, given what seems to be going on.
Also, everyone I know who went to Yale is a bit strange. I'm just saying.
Well, one category of places. I'm sure a lot of schools are not safe, but I would have serious concerns about a daughter going to Annapolis, West Point, etc. And a son, given what seems to be going on.
Also, everyone I know who went to Yale is a bit strange. I'm just saying.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
While I see a lot of discussion about which schools would be preferred for studying physics, I see very little about the type of degree. It should be realized that one can earn either a BA or a BS in physics, depending on the school. A BA in physics has a large content of liberal arts courses. The physics content should be much the same either way. It's the electives and other required courses that make the difference. If you want engineering, then a technical school is necessary. For physics, it can be either a technical school, or a program in arts and sciences. IMO you should determine what you want in this regard before considering which schools would be candidates for consideration.
Jeff
Jeff
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
If you're looking for "safety" schools you probably want to consult the admission rates as a first (or at least second) step. Some of the schools that people mention are probably far from safe even for competitive applicants. Georgia Tech at 39% is much more of a safety than, say, UNC at 25%. Granted, the admission rate data is more meaningful when also looking at the profile of enrolled students.
Here's a good resource for this data: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013 ... rates.html
Here's a good resource for this data: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013 ... rates.html
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I agree. The thread really became more about the match schools (50% admission likelihood for someone with good stats) than the true safety schools (90% likelihood).menlo wrote:If you're looking for "safety" schools you probably want to consult the admission rates as a first (or at least second) step. Some of the schools that people mention are probably far from safe even for competitive applicants. Georgia Tech at 39% is much more of a safety than, say, UNC at 25%. Granted, the admission rate data is more meaningful when also looking at the profile of enrolled students.
Here's a good resource for this data: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013 ... rates.html
EDITED TO ADD: Naviance is a tool that many high schools provide for their students/parents/advisers. It compares the student's GPA and test scores with previous applicants to a college from the same school and maps out how many applied, were accepted, wait-listed, etc. It is more useful than overall admission percentages because it reports on results for students from the same school.
Last edited by TomatoTomahto on Tue Jul 02, 2013 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Tomato,TomatoTomahto wrote:My son's hockey was played on travel teams at the AA level; not great, not awful (if you're not familiar, AA is the top of Tier-2, but shy of AAA (Tier-1) or Juniors). He's a good skater, but is not physically tough enough to avoid injury (hand and knees, one concussion (that's plenty for me, thanks)). Beer league is in his future (fun competition, but everyone has to go to work/school the next day, so don't get crazy). Beer league can be found at most schools, so it's not a significant factor.snowman wrote:Tomato,
If you don't mind me asking, which schools definitely resonated with your son to the point that he wants to apply there? And vice versa, which schools that looked good on paper were dropped after the visit? And did that have anything to do with him playing hockey as well? And finally, did this discussion help you identify good safety school that you have not thought of?
This discussion brought up a lot of good schools, but probably more 50% likelies than 90% likely (a true safety). I counted (and put on a spreadsheet) 57 schools; some were ones I already had thought of, but there are some that are new to me. It's time to go to Naviance, collegedata.com, etc., and see how the fit might be.
Schools that resonated (at least on paper) for Early Action were (in no particular order): Caltech, MIT, Case Western, U Virginia, U Michigan, Stanford. There are of course many schools not on this list that don't support Early Action; it would be sweet for my son to go into the Regular Admissions cycle with a few acceptances under his belt. An acceptance at some of the schools might, after an extended visit, end the process. U Chicago might make the Early Action list (their essays are a gas!).
Nothing dropped off the list entirely, but Princeton seemed a bit stodgy and bureaucratic to my son, and Harvard (as previously mentioned) was over-the-top pretentious (during the video, a kid in the dorm "was brushing his teeth at the same sink that Franklin Delano Rosevelt brushed his teeth at.") The more he read, I think Caltech moved up and might have nudged MIT from top dream spot and Pomona/Harvey Mudd made a surprise (but not EA) appearance)
Thanks for letting us know. Just a few additional thoughts, even though you being "paranoid", you probably thought of everything possible.
I am very familiar with hockey levels. If he truly enjoys the sport, and wants to continue playing it while in college, I think it's important to make sure each school he applies to has a club team. Some schools don't, and many that do, practice at odd times, like 11 PM, which is hard to go study the next day. It does not hurt to email coaches as well, just to confirm there are no tryouts and he can play, as well as what the schedule might look like.
I am not surprised about his reaction to Harvard, but I am a bit surprised about Princeton. It's very different atmosphere there; has your son talked to alum from Princeton? All Ivy schools utilize their graduates to conduct interviews with potential applicants. I strongly encourage your son to sign up for those interviews, as it is a great opportunity to find out more about the school and potential fit.
As your original question was about safety school, I agree with you that most schools mentioned are great schools, but not necessarily a safety school. It seems like Rutgers and couple of others are your choices, unless you want to expand your search further West and maybe apply to schools that are going to offer your son merit scholarship.
Keep us posted, if you don't mind. I wish your son good luck in the process. It's very exciting time for him.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I would like to push back against this a bit. I did my master's at MIT and interacted with a lot of current undergrad students while there - so this is just my two cents based on personal observation. MIT undergrads are some of the smartest people (brain horsepower-wise) I have met, and the environment can be competitive. However, I would not characterize it as cut-throat at all. Although there are some people who never need any help in any classes (those are the geniuses you mentioned), most people need some help at some point. For that reason, there is a fair amount of collaboration among students. No one is really trying to screw anyone over.nimo956 wrote:I just want to stress that the top-ranked school may not necessarily be the best fit for your child as an individual. ... The truth though is that a lot of these schools like MIT are extremely cut-throat. There's a lot of pressure to keep up with and compete with other students who are probably at the genius level (like future Fields Medal/Nobel Prize/MacArthur Genius Award level). They load up on 7-8 honors level classes per semester, get straight A's in all of them, take courses simultaneously that are supposed to be sequentially, are Putman Fellows, etc. This could make your son feel like he needs to keep up. ...
Also, freshman year at MIT is pass/fail to help and reduce some of the pressure that you are talking about (and which certainly exists). The school does a lot to try and fight the kind of pressure you are talking about. That said, looking back to when I was 18, I don't think I would have been able to keep up at MIT. But it sounds like the OP's son is much more together at that age than I was!
To the OP, I see that you your son visited MIT and loved it. There is a lot to love about the school - quirky, interesting, fun people. Everyone seems to stereotype it as being filled with dweebs, and it certainly has its fair share of people walking around with mountain dew and pizza stained-shirts, but the place is very diverse. Check out arts @ MIT (http://arts.mit.edu/) for an example.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Thanks Magicrobot and welcome to the forum.
I share your sense that MIT works for some people, and I think that my son would be over-the-moon happy there. And, as I said before, he would have all the support he would need if it weren't working out well for him.
My son goes to a HS that is competitive. Nevertheless, most of the students collaborate and don't regard education as a zero sum game. My son does a lot of tutoring, and it would never cross his mind that he is working against his (short-term and cynical) best interests; he gets a rush from bringing up someone's understanding and test grades. I have been told that MIT is similar. Just because people are bright and accustomed to being the "smartest guy in the room" does not mean that they are selfish and self-centered; to the contrary, if they're assured of their intelligence, they can better deal with someone else being as intelligent or more.
If my son were lucky enough to be accepted, he would do the accepted student thing where he can overnight and attend some classes to get a sense of the culture at MIT.
I share your sense that MIT works for some people, and I think that my son would be over-the-moon happy there. And, as I said before, he would have all the support he would need if it weren't working out well for him.
My son goes to a HS that is competitive. Nevertheless, most of the students collaborate and don't regard education as a zero sum game. My son does a lot of tutoring, and it would never cross his mind that he is working against his (short-term and cynical) best interests; he gets a rush from bringing up someone's understanding and test grades. I have been told that MIT is similar. Just because people are bright and accustomed to being the "smartest guy in the room" does not mean that they are selfish and self-centered; to the contrary, if they're assured of their intelligence, they can better deal with someone else being as intelligent or more.
If my son were lucky enough to be accepted, he would do the accepted student thing where he can overnight and attend some classes to get a sense of the culture at MIT.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Thanks for the welcome!
Sounds like it could be a good fit for your son. Best of luck to both of you. If you have any questions about MIT, feel free to PM me.
Sounds like it could be a good fit for your son. Best of luck to both of you. If you have any questions about MIT, feel free to PM me.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
My daughter went to Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology, and I can't say enough about the quality of instruction there, plus the campus lifestyle.
RHIT is strictly bachelor's and master's level, with their emphasis on instruction rather than research.
Classes are small, instructors are available, support is awesome. When my daughter was there, there was a 6:1 male:female ratio, which was like shooting fish in a barrel for her, although I suppose not so great for the guys.
The campus is this great retro oaks-and-squirrels layout, with the only drawback being that it's in not-so-lovely Terre Haute, Indiana.
I hate the thought of RHIT being regarded as a safety school, rather than a first choice, but if you haven't been checking into non-PhD schools, you might want to take a look at them.
RHIT is strictly bachelor's and master's level, with their emphasis on instruction rather than research.
Classes are small, instructors are available, support is awesome. When my daughter was there, there was a 6:1 male:female ratio, which was like shooting fish in a barrel for her, although I suppose not so great for the guys.
The campus is this great retro oaks-and-squirrels layout, with the only drawback being that it's in not-so-lovely Terre Haute, Indiana.
I hate the thought of RHIT being regarded as a safety school, rather than a first choice, but if you haven't been checking into non-PhD schools, you might want to take a look at them.
The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about. --Rick Ferri
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I tried scanning through all the great recommendations, but it's become a list of colleges at this point. If he's as strong a candidate as he sounds, I'd jettison the idea that he needs a safety school. Just apply to enough reach and match schools so that he's got less than a 2% chance of not being accepted at any (and maybe a few more), and use Rutgers as his safety school.TomatoTomahto wrote:My son is a strong candidate for the “dream/unpredictable/reach” schools (MIT, CalTech, Princeton, Yale, etc.). He has the grades, SAT scores, extracurricular activities, letters of recommendation, etc. that qualify him to attend (and thrive at) any of those schools. FWIW, that means that he has the dollar to buy a lottery ticket, and there’s a good chance that he won’t get in to any of them. So, we need some “match” schools and some “safety” schools to apply to. He is interested in Physics and Math (and to a lesser extent, economics and history); he is not especially interested in Engineering.
For our purposes, a safety school is one that is 90% likely to accept. A match school is one that is 50% likely to accept.
...
So, any ideas?
Assume he'll apply to exactly 5 reach schools with 10% chance of acceptance and N remaining match schools with 50% chance of acceptance. How match schools (N) will he need to apply to assure a 98% chance he will be accepted to at least 1 school? Extra credit, what is the average expected number of schools he will be accepted to if he actually applies to N schools? Again, if he's as good as you say he is, let's see him answer this math problem
BTW, I may have missed it, but how old is he, what grade, any awards, and among the extravehicular activities, what leadership roles and/or uncommon math/science activities has he done? Depending on the answers, a reach school may not be that far a reach. I assume you know that at reach schools, all applicants have impressive "grades, SAT scores, extracurricular activities, letters of recommendation", so it's those extra factors that are going to make the difference. Where is he taking advance coursework? Is there time for him to place in the Intel STS?
If we assume these are random events and he'd only apply to match schools (50% acceptance), I believe he'd only need to apply to 6 schools to assure a less than 2% chance of not being accepted to any, and he'd likely be accepted to 3 schools.
Last edited by inbox788 on Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:19 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Congratulations on your son, sounds like you won't need a safety as Early Action acceptances will be your safety
However, just a note for others who may be reading. I don't think Naviance GPA/SAT scattergraphs are a reliable way to predict that a smaller schools will be a safety (e.g. Case Western size). Had both son and daughter exceed average GPA and SAT by what I thought was a very safe margin for two different small schools: > 0.3 /250+ points and they were not accepted (waitlisted). Other larger school acceptances/denials were in line with scattergraph predictions.
Luckily, It turned out not to be significant for them. However, if kids were focused only upon small schools, it might have been a lot sadder. My advice is to include early action, a rolling decision school (can apply early) or include a large school as a safety.
However, just a note for others who may be reading. I don't think Naviance GPA/SAT scattergraphs are a reliable way to predict that a smaller schools will be a safety (e.g. Case Western size). Had both son and daughter exceed average GPA and SAT by what I thought was a very safe margin for two different small schools: > 0.3 /250+ points and they were not accepted (waitlisted). Other larger school acceptances/denials were in line with scattergraph predictions.
Luckily, It turned out not to be significant for them. However, if kids were focused only upon small schools, it might have been a lot sadder. My advice is to include early action, a rolling decision school (can apply early) or include a large school as a safety.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
University of Geneva!livesoft wrote:Clearly with your son's distaste for foreign languages he needs to meet that head-on and go to school in France or Germany.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I agree with your note for others who might have kids who are applying to college. If Naviance were really 100% predictive, we'd be finished with one application. Admissions committees work in strange and mysterious ways, and no scattergram will ever provide sufficient information upon which to base decisions. But, it's better than a sharp stick in the eye.SDBoggled wrote:However, just a note for others who may be reading. I don't think Naviance GPA/SAT scattergraphs are a reliable way to predict that a smaller schools will be a safety (e.g. Case Western size). Had both son and daughter exceed average GPA and SAT by what I thought was a very safe margin for two different small schools: > 0.3 /250+ points and they were not accepted (waitlisted). Other larger school acceptances/denials were in line with scattergraph predictions.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Hi. That feels like a big if.inbox788 wrote:If we assume these are random events and he'd only apply to match schools (50% acceptance), I believe he'd only need to apply to 6 schools to assure a less than 2% chance of not being accepted to any, and he'd likely be accepted to 3 schools.
I start from the premise that colleges in the same bucket see the same pros/cons in each student, and so the outcomes are more likely correlated than not.
There are threads and threads and threads out there on people dissecting this very question. My conclusion is that unless you know a reason why a school views different attributes differently don't bank on an uncorrelated random process/outcome. I think the best method is to try and understand (with evidence) hopefully what each school actually values.
This space reserved for the yet-unwritten ultimate investing and personal finance truism.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Safety schools are also schools where your child would be willing to attend and you can afford.
You might want to raise your questions on this website, especially the parents forum: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/
You might want to raise your questions on this website, especially the parents forum: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I go there (college confidential) periodically, but I mostly prefer the vibe here. As I told someone else (here maybe?) they bury their treasure deep over there. It can be a very unwelcoming and incestuous place, but it can be worth it for the information that sometimes shows up. There are gems (molliebatmit's threads on the MIT forum, for example), but also a lot of nasty unmoderated garbage.Old Guy wrote:Safety schools are also schools where your child would be willing to attend and you can afford.
You might want to raise your questions on this website, especially the parents forum: http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/
As regards safety schools, I guess it depends on the definition of "willing to attend." If my son only gets into SafetySchool, I guess he can either attend or not. Would he attend it if he also got into DreamSchool or MatchSchool? Since we can afford the others, probably not.
Last edited by TomatoTomahto on Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Like investing, "Markets can remain irrational a lot longer than you and I can remain solvent", I believe the math is sound, but the assumptions are a whole other matter. Not having seen the threads and threads, my assumption is that failure of the independent random events have less to do with the individual applicant (stock) and more to do with the climate (market). Predicting whether a stock meets or beats earnings is 80/20 because there's a tendency to sandbag expectations, while whisper numbers are more 50/50. Similarly, students (applicants, their parents, counselors, etc.) tend to make poor estimates at their chances. Further, the climate (state schools cutting funding, cutting slots) is a macro factor that is hard to quantify, but that could lead to correlated events. If adjusted correctly (good luck), then reaching theoretical 50/50 acceptance rate schools should become random independent events. On the margin, 2 similar students being evaluated will come out with similar results. If one student always tops another student, then all the remaining schools will be left without a slot filled.or_investing wrote:Hi. That feels like a big if.inbox788 wrote:If we assume these are random events and he'd only apply to match schools (50% acceptance), I believe he'd only need to apply to 6 schools to assure a less than 2% chance of not being accepted to any, and he'd likely be accepted to 3 schools.
I start from the premise that colleges in the same bucket see the same pros/cons in each student, and so the outcomes are more likely correlated than not.
There are threads and threads and threads out there on people dissecting this very question. My conclusion is that unless you know a reason why a school views different attributes differently don't bank on an uncorrelated random process/outcome. I think the best method is to try and understand (with evidence) hopefully what each school actually values.
Look at the application process a different way. Many schools have a 10% acceptance rate, but students apply to 10 colleges, so if all the colleges accepted the same students, most would never fill their class. In the end, if a student applies to 6 or 10 schools with a 50/50 chance and doesn't get into any, the chance he's very unlucky is less than 2%, but more likely he made a poor self-assessment and the schools weren't really 50/50 for him. As much as there is a limited number of top schools, there is also a limited number of top students, so those really at the top shouldn't have to worry too much (even though they're likely the ones to worry the most).
- retiredbuthappy
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Lehigh was great for my snowflake, who went on for a PhD at a school in Boston and is now a VP (engineering). Engineering has value when one considers the dearth of jobs for physics PhDs. So many bright, hardworkers being jumped over by (sorry) immigrant physicists who will work any number of hours for a job in the US. Ask around about job possibilities for PhD physicists compared to PhD engineers!
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I take your point, but going Physics/Math as an entering college freshman leaves a zillion options even while an undergraduate, much less afterwards. There is no question that Bogleheads like their engineeringretiredbuthappy wrote:Lehigh was great for my snowflake, who went on for a PhD at a school in Boston and is now a VP (engineering). Engineering has value when one considers the dearth of jobs for physics PhDs. So many bright, hardworkers being jumped over by (sorry) immigrant physicists who will work any number of hours for a job in the US. Ask around about job possibilities for PhD physicists compared to PhD engineers!
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
OK I am presuming you are referring to sexual assault scandals? Those are military wide? After Tailhook, I imagine Annapolis is among the cleanest places in the US military. But there are institutionalized cultural issues, but I think they are more post academy rather than in the academy.frugaltype wrote:I will diss a couple of places.
Well, one category of places. I'm sure a lot of schools are not safe, but I would have serious concerns about a daughter going to Annapolis, West Point, etc. And a son, given what seems to be going on.
Also, everyone I know who went to Yale is a bit strange. I'm just saying.
Colorado Springs has had a reputation for having leadership issues. West Point and Annapolis do not. I am not aware of any particular scandals that attach to the US service academies *at this point* (as opposed to history).
based on the Marshall Scholars who lived on my floor in residence in the UK, academy grads, I would say that Annapolis grads are:
- more thoughtful, more intellectual than WP grads, quieter
- there is a general sense of 'senior service' and 'class' with the USN that there is not with the Army (in the case of the WP grads, the concern was their first CO out of school would be a non academy grad who would have it in for them with their Academy pedigree and postgrad degree). The Army, at the lower levels at least, is just less intellectual. I am entirely prepared to believe when you get to the LIeut-Colonels etc. this is not how the Army is, this is simply how I perceived it from knowing Junior officers
- I am also 20 years out of date
Basically the Annapolis guys were either going to be flyboys, and it takes a special sort of very low reacter person to fly a plane on and off a carrier, or they were submariners (nuclear engineers) and ditto in a different way.
Whilst there are lots of ways to get killed in the Navy in accidents etc., generally it's the Army and the Marines that have taken the brunt of casualties in any US war since WW2. A consideration, surely, for any parent.
It doesn't sound like OP's son is minded this way, so it's irrelevant to the conversation, but I wanted to introduce lateral thoughts to the conversation.
I am sure there are people who know far more about these places than I do, with my 3000 mile and 20 year perspective.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
And there is a purity to a good math/ phyiscs degree.TomatoTomahto wrote:I take your point, but going Physics/Math as an entering college freshman leaves a zillion options even while an undergraduate, much less afterwards. There is no question that Bogleheads like their engineeringretiredbuthappy wrote:Lehigh was great for my snowflake, who went on for a PhD at a school in Boston and is now a VP (engineering). Engineering has value when one considers the dearth of jobs for physics PhDs. So many bright, hardworkers being jumped over by (sorry) immigrant physicists who will work any number of hours for a job in the US. Ask around about job possibilities for PhD physicists compared to PhD engineers!
There are 'engineering physics' programmes for example U of Toronto has a highly ranked one (called Engineering Science but has a physics option). But engineering is such a tough undergrad sled that there is no time to really digest lessons, or to really ponder what you have learned-- a pure physics degree will give you more of that.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I agree with you that the atmosphere is really collaborative and friendly among students at MIT. I was trying to describe the internal pressure that a student tends to place upon himself. It's not necessarily that other students are trying to screw anyone over. Rather, it's the student himself that is trying to keep up with others so that he doesn't feel inferior academically. To go from being the top performer at one's high school to the bottom 1/3 of the class at MIT, as Valuethinker describes, can really cause a blow to one's self-worth.magicrobot wrote:I would like to push back against this a bit. I did my master's at MIT and interacted with a lot of current undergrad students while there - so this is just my two cents based on personal observation. MIT undergrads are some of the smartest people (brain horsepower-wise) I have met, and the environment can be competitive. However, I would not characterize it as cut-throat at all. Although there are some people who never need any help in any classes (those are the geniuses you mentioned), most people need some help at some point. For that reason, there is a fair amount of collaboration among students. No one is really trying to screw anyone over.nimo956 wrote:I just want to stress that the top-ranked school may not necessarily be the best fit for your child as an individual. ... The truth though is that a lot of these schools like MIT are extremely cut-throat. There's a lot of pressure to keep up with and compete with other students who are probably at the genius level (like future Fields Medal/Nobel Prize/MacArthur Genius Award level). They load up on 7-8 honors level classes per semester, get straight A's in all of them, take courses simultaneously that are supposed to be sequentially, are Putman Fellows, etc. This could make your son feel like he needs to keep up. ...
50% VTI / 50% VXUS
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
There are many fine schools in the list of "match" and "safety" schools. IIRC, someone put UChicago in the grouping Thank you for your suggestion.bayview wrote:I hate the thought of RHIT being regarded as a safety school, rather than a first choice, but if you haven't been checking into non-PhD schools, you might want to take a look at them.
I think my son would have the opposite reaction to your daughter's about the 6:1 male/female ratio.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
As luck would have it, our daughter is going to be at Princeton for a summer activity in a few weeks. We will take the opportunity to "nose around the joint." I don't intend to insult anyone, but as I've told my son: "I've known idiots that went to Harvard, I've known stoners that went to Brown, but I've never known anyone from Princeton who didn't have a first-rate mind." That said, we'll see if he changes his views of the atmosphere with a bit more exposure. We'll look into a Princeton alum interview; are those available even before applying?snowman wrote:[snip...]I am not surprised about his reaction to Harvard, but I am a bit surprised about Princeton. It's very different atmosphere there; has your son talked to alum from Princeton? All Ivy schools utilize their graduates to conduct interviews with potential applicants. I strongly encourage your son to sign up for those interviews, as it is a great opportunity to find out more about the school and potential fit.
[snip...]
Keep us posted, if you don't mind. I wish your son good luck in the process. It's very exciting time for him.
I will keep you posted. It varies for some schools, but I think for our schools the important dates are November 1 for applications and December 1 for results.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
My daughter might say, "Yep, a lot of fish in the barrel, but who wants to date a fish."
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Correct.TomatoTomahto wrote:I take your point, but going Physics/Math as an entering college freshman leaves a zillion options even while an undergraduate, much less afterwards. There is no question that Bogleheads like their engineeringretiredbuthappy wrote:Lehigh was great for my snowflake, who went on for a PhD at a school in Boston and is now a VP (engineering). Engineering has value when one considers the dearth of jobs for physics PhDs. So many bright, hardworkers being jumped over by (sorry) immigrant physicists who will work any number of hours for a job in the US. Ask around about job possibilities for PhD physicists compared to PhD engineers!
There was a saying back in the day that if you know your physics and math well enough, that's all you need. Everything else can be DERIVED...
Attempted new signature...
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Which universities are good for a math/sciency kid who is not really into humanities? (I.e. they don't make you take too many humanities courses.)
Which universities have admissions that concentrate on academics abd are not too concerned with "extracurriculars"?
Which universities are good for a kid of modest financial means where they won't be under pressure to spend money they don't have due to being surrounded by very wealthy peers?
Which universities have admissions that concentrate on academics abd are not too concerned with "extracurriculars"?
Which universities are good for a kid of modest financial means where they won't be under pressure to spend money they don't have due to being surrounded by very wealthy peers?
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I think probably the schools that are engineering focused would fit that bill the best.555 wrote:Which universities are good for a math/sciency kid who is not really into humanities? (I.e. they don't make you take too many humanities courses.)
I think that the schools with larger numbers of applicants and admitted students are, almost as a necessity, more oriented to admissions decisions "based on the numbers." There are large state schools that barely have an essay on the app and where if you have the raw numbers (SAT, GPA, etc.), you're in (at least if you're in-state, OOS admissions is tougher). Depending on the numbers (both academic and financial), you might also get a scholarship (merit-based and need-based).Which universities have admissions that concentrate on academics abd are not too concerned with "extracurriculars"?
I think to a great extent the schools that I mentioned above. There are some smaller schools (Coopers Union, for example) that work very hard to include students of modest financial means. There is one school, whose name I can't recall right now, that had a maximum family income; if you make too much, your kid can't attend, but if your child gets accepted, it's usually a free ride.Which universities are good for a kid of modest financial means where they won't be under pressure to spend money they don't have due to being surrounded by very wealthy peers?
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
The trouble with SAT is that a Math SAT score of 800 is too common to be a deciding factor for admission in elite universities. But there are still other academic criteria, e.g. competitions, (or you could score 800 by middle school, which I expect my son to be able to do in the future) that could be used for admissions decisions, rather than "extracurriculars". So the question is, among universities elite enough that Math SAT 800 doesn't even get your foot in the door, which ones really focus on academics, and put little or no weight on "extracurriculars"?
So my questions are really meant to apply just to these academically elite institutions.
I see that in other countries "extracurriculars" don't matter.
http://www.study.cam.ac.uk/undergraduat ... olicy.html
So my questions are really meant to apply just to these academically elite institutions.
I see that in other countries "extracurriculars" don't matter.
http://www.study.cam.ac.uk/undergraduat ... olicy.html
Ultimately, all admissions decisions are based on academic criteria, and excellence in an extra-curricular activity will never ‘compensate’ for lower academic potential.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I can speak for the top school on some of the lists posted earlier in this physics/math-y thread.555 wrote:Which universities are good for a math/sciency kid who is not really into humanities? (I.e. they don't make you take too many humanities courses.)
Humanities are required, every term, and end up representing about 1/6 of the total credit load. They tend to consume much less actual time, however, so they probably can be managed down to <10% of the effort.
Perhaps not surprisingly, even kids who thought they loved all the math and science, and who thought they didn't care for the humanities much at all, often found at my school that they enjoyed certain types of humanities much more than they would have thought. And even that they enjoyed certain math or science areas much, much less than they would have thought.
I think most of the top-tier science schools demand a certain minimum humanities investment. This is why the word is "university," after all. It's not a trade school.
I did some admissions work for aforementioned top school for a couple of years. You are right that 800 math is not a huge differentiator. The opposite is the case -- if it is not an 800, there need to be some extenuating circumstances. Many of us got our 800's in middle school, as you describe.Which universities have admissions that concentrate on academics abd are not too concerned with "extracurriculars"?
At our school, the real superstars were admitted without consideration of extracurriculars. (Duh.) The very, very best were also offered partial or full merit-based scholarships.
The next tier were generally bucketed by differentiating academic factors, like the competitions you mention, coursework at a quality university near home, and so on. Since there were few slots and so many applications (a ratio of roughly 10:1 when I was involved), however, there was still some weight given to non-academic indicators of well-roundedness.
There was also an admission emphasis on identifying applicants who had the intellectual potential but, perhaps, not the environmental circumstances necessary to excel in grade school. A select number of kids who showed unusual determination, often with very "late-breaking" academic results, were also admitted.
I think the system was pretty fair and reasonable. The process was gender-blind except at the point of offering merit-based scholarship.
If a kid is going to feel pressure to spend, there will always be some wealthy peers around. I'm sure there are some noble institutions that skew towards wealthier students, including perhaps those that allow donors and legacy skew in their admissions process. But there is not a whole ton of correlation at the very top of the pile: the superstars don't often come from superstar parents. Which, in some ways, is kind of a refreshing thought, right? I can say for certain that this is a non-factor at the top two west and east coast schools that end with "Technology."Which universities are good for a kid of modest financial means where they won't be under pressure to spend money they don't have due to being surrounded by very wealthy peers?
Neat topic, by the way. My safeties were CMU, GT, RPI, Rice. Almost all of the schools being discussed in this thread are great institutions with plenty of runway for smart, motivated kids to excel. (The very, very best kids really need to be at the top couple of schools if only so they have immediate exposure to the strongest faculty and peer learning group, but then, those people don't really need safety schools, do they?)
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Amen. In addition to their other virtues, it is to their credit that they are not swayed by legacy or development. Personally, beyond my bias as a parent of an applicant, I find it shameful and corrupt that we give so many precious slots away to those who have not earned them.Nebster wrote: If a kid is going to feel pressure to spend, there will always be some wealthy peers around. I'm sure there are some noble institutions that skew towards wealthier students, including perhaps those that allow donors and legacy skew in their admissions process. But there is not a whole ton of correlation at the very top of the pile: the superstars don't often come from superstar parents. Which, in some ways, is kind of a refreshing thought, right? I can say for certain that this is a non-factor at the top two west and east coast schools that end with "Technology."
EDITED TO ADD: And don't get me started about college sports
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
FYI, I when I applied to graduate schools several years ago, I was yield-protect rejected by a few schools significantly lower-ranked than the one I ultimately ended up attending. Every one of them gave me some kind of an opt-out to their reject. Usually it was something like this: "we've already admitted too many outstanding students and are unfortunately not able to make you an offer of admission at this time. However, we'd like to give you an opportunity to be placed on our wait list if you respond to this letter/email/phone call and reaffirm your continued interest in our school." I was annoyed at the time, but in retrospect, in fairness to the schools, they were generally schools with average test scores/grades pretty far below mine and were in geographic areas with whom I had no discernible connection--in other words, schools that couldn't see from my application why it was likely that I would go there (and in fact, they did tend to be my "last choice" schools).TomatoTomahto wrote:Here's another question: Am I overly paranoid in thinking that schools will reject my son because of their yield management (thanks, US News and World Report)? A zillion years ago, the only graduate school that rejected me was my safety, and I think that as much as I tried not to let it happen, its status as a safety was obvious to them and they resented being thus regarded. I'm afraid that the admission officer will read the application, decide that "no way is this kid really interested in us, I don't care what he said on his 'why us?' essay, gotta keep our yield stats high: reject".
Universities aren't dumb. They want to keep their admissions numbers impressive, but part of that involves enrolling students with high grades and test scores. They definitely don't want to miss out on a top candidate because of an erroneous assumption that the student was not really interested. In the event your son does get rejected from a school where his numbers are well above the school's averages and your son still maintains a serious interest in attending that school (i.e. he hasn't yet received an offer from a school he'd clearly prefer to the rejecting school), a polite call or letter to the admissions office expressing sincere disappointment and continued interest in the school will almost certainly solve the problem. In fact, as described above, in my experience, they're likely to offer him the opportunity to opt back in at the time the "rejection" is made.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
RobInCT,
Since I posted about my "paranoia," I've discovered that I'm not alone. Apparently it's referred to as "Tufts syndrome." Tufts (via at least one spokesperson on collegeconfidential) swears that it doesn't yield protect in that fashion. I hope that it doesn't come to that, but I will keep your suggestion in mind.
Since I posted about my "paranoia," I've discovered that I'm not alone. Apparently it's referred to as "Tufts syndrome." Tufts (via at least one spokesperson on collegeconfidential) swears that it doesn't yield protect in that fashion. I hope that it doesn't come to that, but I will keep your suggestion in mind.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
lol, livesoft. So she is gifted with a sense of humor as well...My daughter might say, "Yep, a lot of fish in the barrel, but who wants to date a fish."
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
A thought popped into my head about the kids being discussed here.
If they are really all that bright, why do they need or even want your help? I think this thought was triggered by the super duper color coordinated spread sheet a ways back.
Or maybe it was triggered by an article about helicopter parents I recently read.
You have bright competent kids, right? Give them a break. Have a little trust. Let them figure out where they want to go to college. Just think how nice it will be to get back to your own stuff and let them handle their stuff.
You need to let go; now is a pretty good time to start.
Just thinking...
If they are really all that bright, why do they need or even want your help? I think this thought was triggered by the super duper color coordinated spread sheet a ways back.
Or maybe it was triggered by an article about helicopter parents I recently read.
You have bright competent kids, right? Give them a break. Have a little trust. Let them figure out where they want to go to college. Just think how nice it will be to get back to your own stuff and let them handle their stuff.
You need to let go; now is a pretty good time to start.
Just thinking...
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
- TomatoTomahto
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
Rodc,
I disagree; a 17 yo kid still needs quite a bit of guidance. My son and I are very close. I've been a SAHD (stay at home Dad) for around a decade; he and I (and my daughter also, for that matter) discuss many things that matter to us, and it would be bizarre to discuss sex, religion, politics, drugs, alcohol, tattoos, body piercings, personalities, money, careers, etc. and leave the topic of where he'll spend the next 4 years undiscussed. I've earned his trust and he's earned mine.
He also gets guidance from school (teachers and also what they call "college counselors"). This forum provides additional data points.
I disagree; a 17 yo kid still needs quite a bit of guidance. My son and I are very close. I've been a SAHD (stay at home Dad) for around a decade; he and I (and my daughter also, for that matter) discuss many things that matter to us, and it would be bizarre to discuss sex, religion, politics, drugs, alcohol, tattoos, body piercings, personalities, money, careers, etc. and leave the topic of where he'll spend the next 4 years undiscussed. I've earned his trust and he's earned mine.
He also gets guidance from school (teachers and also what they call "college counselors"). This forum provides additional data points.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I'm not suggesting not discussing if they want. Suggesting they come to you rather than the reverse. This is a difficult transition for many parents (as the father of a 25 year old I'm still working on it). Offer advice only when asked. Offer the minimal amount. It is super easy to over do it, to do too much, to deny the child the opportunity to grow up and to demonstrate their own abilities, to you and to themselves. It is very hard for parents to give up control, to give up the notion that our children need us or to over estimate how much they need us (if they don't need us, what then is our purpose? This is very hard for many Stay at Home Parents).TomatoTomahto wrote:Rodc,
I disagree; a 17 yo kid still needs quite a bit of guidance. My son and I are very close. I've been a SAHD (stay at home Dad) for around a decade; he and I (and my daughter also, for that matter) discuss many things that matter to us, and it would be bizarre to discuss sex, religion, politics, drugs, alcohol, tattoos, body piercings, personalities, money, careers, etc. and leave the topic of where he'll spend the next 4 years undiscussed. I've earned his trust and he's earned mine.
He also gets guidance from school (teachers and also what they call "college counselors"). This forum provides additional data points.
So this is just a gentle suggestion, and not just to you but to all parents of kids this age, that is it easy for parents to do too much for too long. Maybe that is you, maybe it is not. Maybe it some of the other parents posting or reading this thread or similar threads. I do think it is worth stepping back and taking a good hard honest look at the question, rather than dismissing it out of hand.
At 17 I planned and executed a one year trip to visit nearly every state in the country, by getting a nearly full time job, by building a camper, by saving a bunch of money. No help was requested or provided, though I did borrow a few tools from my dad to build the camper. When I got back I was given a college budget and the rest was up to me.
Bright 17 year olds can do more than we give them credit for. Just think about what they frequently accomplished back a few generations ago.
We live a world with knowledge of the future markets has less than one significant figure. And people will still and always demand answers to three significant digits.
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Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I'm not dismissing it out of hand. Launching a kid varies by the kid. My younger daughter has been pretty self-sufficient since she's been a toddler; she picked the middle school she wanted to go to when we thought she was continuing on in public school, got us to agree to it, and applied. My 31 yo daughter needed validation, my son needs practical assistance, my younger daughter needs an occasional course correction. One size doesn't fit them all, not even one size fits any one of them all the time.Rodc wrote: So this is just a gentle suggestion, and not just to you but to all parents of kids this age, that is it easy for parents to do too much for too long. Maybe that is you, maybe it is not. Maybe it some of the other parents posting or reading this thread or similar threads. I do think it is worth stepping back and taking a good hard honest look at the question, rather than dismissing it out of hand.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
I'm surprised at the percentage of private schools mentioned. A number of state schools have very solid undergraduate programs in physics. Is an undergrad degree in physics from a prestigious private school going to be significantly different or better than one from a public school with a strong physics program? Since hard science and engineering grads typically go on to graduate school and do so fully funded with tuition waivers and living expense stipends, wouldn't it make sense to consider a very solid state school for undergrad and go to the prestigious private "name" school for graduate work? They pay your child to attend for grad school versus you paying a quarter-million dollars or more for an undergrad degree. Isn't the name of the school where you got your terminal degree from what really counts?
State schools are more likely to accept IB/AP credits if the exam scores are high enough which might reduce the time spent by a semester or year, and a lot of state schools will offer their top out-of-state students partial merit scholarships to equalize the costs to something at or close to in-state public school costs to compete against the flagship in-state state U.
Maybe a quarter-million dollars is "chump-change" to the OP but for a financial forum fixated on reducing all costs that can be controlled, we do seem to trend to "money is no object" when it comes to educating precious snowflake.
State schools are more likely to accept IB/AP credits if the exam scores are high enough which might reduce the time spent by a semester or year, and a lot of state schools will offer their top out-of-state students partial merit scholarships to equalize the costs to something at or close to in-state public school costs to compete against the flagship in-state state U.
Maybe a quarter-million dollars is "chump-change" to the OP but for a financial forum fixated on reducing all costs that can be controlled, we do seem to trend to "money is no object" when it comes to educating precious snowflake.
70/30 AA for life, Global market cap equity. Rebalance if fixed income <25% or >35%. Weighted ER< .10%. 5% of annual portfolio balance SWR, Proportional (to AA) withdrawals.
Re: Safety schools for a Physics/Math kid
+1000 . I also believe that it is continous.TomatoTomahto wrote:Rodc,
I disagree; a 17 yo kid still needs quite a bit of guidance. My son and I are very close. I've been a SAHD (stay at home Dad) for around a decade; he and I (and my daughter also, for that matter) discuss many things that matter to us, and it would be bizarre to discuss sex, religion, politics, drugs, alcohol, tattoos, body piercings, personalities, money, careers, etc. and leave the topic of where he'll spend the next 4 years undiscussed. I've earned his trust and he's earned mine.
He also gets guidance from school (teachers and also what they call "college counselors"). This forum provides additional data points.