The Boglehead Car -- What is It?

Alf 101 · Post by **Alf 101** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:28 pm

It's an interesting question.

First off, I suppose with a very few exceptions, a car is not a good investment. Most of us seem to need one to get from A to B, but are under no illusions it appreciates in value over time. That said there are "car people" -- it's their thing, just as it is for some others with cats, guns, fine art, scrapbooking, or houseplants. There are those who want an expensive and high performance car because it brings them great pleasure. Every once in awhile you see someone posting on this forum whether they should or shouldn't buy something; ultimately you have to weigh the emotional component in those decisions, not just what we need but what we want.

That said, I am not a car person. I like driving just fine, and the freedom of the open road as much as anyone, but I see cars in strictly utilitarian terms.

In the interest of full disclosure, and as if to hammer that last point home, I drive a 1999 Ford Escort Wagon. I bought it perhaps 5 years ago with 41,000 miles on it. Since I commute to work by public transportation, the odometer is up to 72,000. While it does excel on the downhills, I have no fantasies about the Autobahn while driving it. It does the job.

At some point, maybe not this year or next, I'll have to replace it. This thinking led me to consider what might steer members of the Boglehead community while unemotionally looking for a car. Here are a few things I'm thinking:

1. Stay the Course/Low Cost of Ownership
I would be looking for a "buy and hold" car. Unless something was mechanically wrong, such that it made little financial sense to fix it, I would buy a car and drive it until it dies.

Tied to that is the low cost of ownership -- in short, the reliability. It's doubtful I'd ever buy a new car -- I'd instead look for models around 3 years old -- but ultimately it's about value. I would spend more initially if I made it up through lower annual expenses over the life of the car.

Fuel economy plays into this as well. So between a 4-cylinder and 6-cylinder model, I'm a little sad to admit efficiency would trump zippiness.

2. Diversification
How much can you diversify with one car? The analogy may be getting thin, but is there a TSM of cars that has or can do a little of everything --primarily balancing payload (skis, child, dog) and, again, fuel economy. There may be other relevant feature too: all-wheel drive, for example. Having learned to drive in Minnesota, it was somewhat ingrained that having fairly new tires and not being an idiot were what winter driving required. Still, I'm open to other thoughts.

I wonder what other Boglehead principles might guide a car search, and what directions others in the community have gone with it. Admittedly, at first blush, the 4-cylinder station wagon may be the sweet spot. There are other complicating factors -- being very tall or having a large family (thus needing a van or SUV) -- that don't apply to my case, but could to many of us reading this.

I'd be interested and would enjoy others' thoughts.

fatlittlepig · Post by **fatlittlepig** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:29 pm

i own a 05 camry never had any problems and don't expect i ever will.

The Wizard · Post by **The Wizard** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:33 pm

Buy a brand new Honda Fit once the Escort wagon goes...

nisiprius · Post by **nisiprius** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:37 pm

Apart from jokes, I don't think there are any useful analogies to be drawn.

But, not apart from jokes, well, obviously:

A Vanguard CitiCar. (But does it have a cupholder for At-Cost Cafe coffee?)

http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2013/2/4/Ho ... r-7712801/

Wikipedia's article: Citicar. Zero to 25 in 6.2 seconds!!!!

normaldude · Post by **normaldude** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:42 pm

I don't own a car. I take mass transit.

When I need a car, I have a Zipcar car share membership. Or I use Avis/Hertz.

stemikger · Post by **stemikger** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:44 pm

As a true Boglehead the only reason why I bought my brand new 09 Nissan Versa was because at that the time it was the most inexpensive car sold in America. I'm not 100% but I think it still is. Being a total point A to point B car guy I never even test drove it. Four years later I'm loving this car. The added bonus was how roomy it is for a subcompact. And it drives great too.

I was a Ford guy before this and I owned an 89 Escort and 2000 Focus and all I can say is "Never Again". Found On Road Dead definitely applied to both those cars. My only mistake was sticking with Ford after the Escort. I should have walked away then but I always believed in second chances.

ObliviousInvestor · Post by **ObliviousInvestor** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 2:50 pm

We've been super happy with our Honda Fit. Hasn't needed any maintenance whatsoever so far other than the things prescribed at various mileage points in the manual. Gets pretty decent mileage and has good safety ratings.

But, I do miss not having a car at all. Walking or taking the train everywhere while in Chicago was delightful.

Fallible · Post by **Fallible** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:07 pm

nisiprius wrote:Apart from jokes, I don't think there are any useful analogies to be drawn.

But, not apart from jokes, well, obviously:

A Vanguard CitiCar. (But does it have a cupholder for At-Cost Cafe coffee?)

...

One of the best, most reliable cars I ever had (even survived my running it into another car and a ditch) came with one cup holder: my hand. It was a 1970 VW Bug.

JupiterJones · Post by **JupiterJones** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:13 pm

I don't think there is such a thing as a Boglehead car. Despite our reputation, "Boglehead" isn't necessarily synonymous with "cheapskate".

But we are careful with our money and tend to ensure that the cost paid is worth it in terms of value received. Since some of us are "car people" and some aren't, we all derive value differently. I personally don't derive enough extra value from a Lexus, compared to a Honda, to justify the higher price. Nor do I much care if I'm driving a brand-new car vs. a used one. But others feel differently, and who am I to say they're wrong?

But there probably is such a thing as a Boglehead way to buy that car.

Most of us would probably buy at least slightly used for cars that depreciate greatly/quickly, but wouldn't have any qualms buying a brand-new one if it held its value. Most of us would probably strive to pay cash, or at least get a zero-interest loan. We would probably research the crap out of the car prior to making the buying decision. That sort of thing.

bengal22 · Post by **bengal22** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:16 pm

The Boglehead Creed is to spend within your means. Driving a nice car is a reward for working hard, saving regularly, and investing wisely. I vote for a Cadillac CTS.

caklim00 · Post by **caklim00** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:25 pm

I already know that our next car likely needs a 3rd row, due to expanding family size. But, am a little turned off by the big vans. Mazda 5 looks like a decent option... What happened to all the wagons with 3rd rows?

frugaltype · Post by **frugaltype** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:34 pm

If I were going to get a new car, I'd get a Prius. I just like the idea of less dependence in gas but not being totally dependent on electricity. Also a couple of extended family members have them and really like them.

Random Musings · Post by **Random Musings** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:35 pm

Bogleheads can either be single, married with no kids, married with all kids out of the house and married with children in the house.

Let alone income levels and personal tastes, too many variables.

One thing I do is drive 'em into the ground.

RM

lucky3 · Post by **lucky3** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:39 pm

Subaru Legacy....2006 up to 118,000 miles and still going strong...all wheel drive, good on mileage...what else could a Boglehead ask for?

Lucky3

david9117 · Post by **david9117** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:40 pm

I drive them till I sell my cars by weight

livesoft · Post by **livesoft** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:46 pm

On average, Bogleheads are extremely wealthy because of reasonable investing decisions they have made over the course of their lives. A car is not an investment, so The Boglehead Car is something like a Lexus, Porsche, Mercedes, Acura, or Tesla.

Or maybe it is any car with "Vanguard Flagship" decal on the back?

YttriumNitrate · Post by **YttriumNitrate** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:51 pm

deleted.

normaldude · Post by **normaldude** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:54 pm

livesoft wrote:On average, Bogleheads are extremely wealthy because of reasonable investing decisions they have made over the course of their lives. A car is not an investment, so The Boglehead Car is something like a Lexus, Porsche, Mercedes, Acura, or Tesla.

So instead of spending extra money on one form of flashy marketing (a well dressed JP Morgan private banker who takes you to NBA games and fancy dinners), you'll be spending extra money on another form of flashy marketing (Lexus, Porsche, Mercedes, Acura, or Tesla).

Whether it's a low cost Vanguard index fund, or inexpensive reliable car, both will get you from point A to point B, but with more money in your pocket.

livesoft · Post by **livesoft** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 3:56 pm

Once again, Investing is not the same as Consumption.

I am not investing for investing's sake. I am investing so that I have lots more money to spend.

The Wizard · Post by **The Wizard** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:02 pm

livesoft wrote:Once again, Investing is not the same as Consumption.

I am not investing for investing's sake. I am investing so that I have lots more money to spend.

Yes, I think we need to stress Financial Independence at least equally with things like frugality and early retirement at the soonest point possible...

Ged · Post by **Ged** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:16 pm

Depends on the life stage of the Boglehead. Prior to achieving his number it's a frugal good bang for the money car like the Honda Fit.

After achieving his number it's a more of a consumption choice. Mine was an Acura TL.

BrandonBogle · Post by **BrandonBogle** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:20 pm

My roommate is VERY happy with his Honda Fit. Bought it used about 18 months ago. He's racked up MANY miles on it and gets great fuel economy. Got a blank lab too and it's super convenient to LIFT the rear seats and put the dog in the back. Whenever we ride with him, he just puts the seats down and voila, no dog hair!

Our family has traditionally been Corolla people. Had an old 80s Corolla, then a 99 Corolla, and now an IS. We'd still have the Corolla for mom but it was totaled and she likes to be pampered a bit. Meanwhile, my gf has an 04 Corolla and her brother an 05 Corolla. Seeing a pattern here? I'm the oddball. I felt cramped in the Corolla and had a 97 4Runner and now a 06 4Runner.

Ged wrote:Depends on the life stage of the Boglehead. Prior to achieving his number it's a frugal good bang for the money car like the Honda Fit.

After achieving his number it's a more of a consumption choice. Mine was an Acura TL.

This is where I am at. I'm getting the itch to be somewhat more of a car guy and pick up an Infiniti G37 after experiencing some fun to drive cars last year.

Perpetual · Post by **Perpetual** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:31 pm

Hyundai Elantra.

Almost equal build-quality and gas mileage as a Honda or Toyota, but a stunning 10 year/100,000 mile warranty on the drivetrain and 6 year/60,000 on everything else.

Can't beat that.

KyleAAA · Post by **KyleAAA** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 4:34 pm

My Corolla is 9 years old with around 115,000 miles and I've never done anything but the scheduled maintenance. I anticipate driving it at least another 4 or 5 years. Not bad for a $13,000 car.

btenny · Post by **btenny** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:00 pm

I recommend a Subaru Outback with 4 cyl, cvt transmission and awd. Buy it new or slightly used and keep forever. This is the ultimate versatility station wagon. It is the just the right size, big enough for four but small enough to park easily. It hauls a ton and goes anywhere including deep snow and mud and most off road trails and is fun to drive. It will get about 29 mpg in town and 33 mpg on the road. Any model newer than 2012 has good performance and good handling and all the nice creature comforts and safety features.

I have a 2013 top of the line Outback Limited model with the 6 cyl and it handles wonderful and is a great road and family car. It is a luxury wagon for a Chevy price. It cost $31K plus tax and license new. A medium equiped version with the 4 cyl would be $27K new or $22K used.

You might also consider the latest 2014 Subaru Forester. It is more of a SUV than the station wagon Outback. It is a great car and almost as nice as the Outback but slightly cheaper.

Good Luck
Bill

grandturk2014 · Post by **grandturk2014** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:05 pm

Cars bring to mind many things, frugality, safety, comfort, gulp, yes....................status to some, and practicality.

From a financial point of view I think a car paid off is best, but at the very least, not one leased and not one with high interest rates or brand new. Just my .02.

TomatoTomahto · Post by **TomatoTomahto** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:30 pm

livesoft wrote:Once again, Investing is not the same as Consumption.

I am not investing for investing's sake. I am investing so that I have lots more money to spend.

Thank you!

I like to consider myself a BH, but I don't like playing the "more frugal than thou" game. You know the game, the one where "my car cost $24.00 and has rats living in it" is trumped by "they paid me to take my car out of the junk yard and the rats refuse to live in it."

We like Range Rovers (and recently, Volvo) for their combination of functionality, comfort, safety, and reliability. Yes, they are "overpriced" and they drink lots of gasoline. When Tesla comes out with their X car, we'll probably buy one. I live in a neighborhood where "status" requires at least an Aston Martin, so the Range Rovers aren't in our driveway for status. I like the fact that I can drive all the way to Maine, in any weather, and arrive without needing a chiropractor.

nisiprius · Post by **nisiprius** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:41 pm

Well, of course the Vanguard CitiCar, that was just silly. I was only joking about that.

But how about this? Eye-catching lines, luxurious comfort, shimmering jewel-like colors, and a magic carpet ride.

Here's one next to HMS Vanguard, the ship. Well, no, not that HMS Vanguard, this HMS Vanguard.

mike143 · Post by **mike143** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 5:56 pm

The least amount of vehicle you NEED that provides the lowest cost of ownership. Right now that is a 2012 Civic for the wife, returns 35-41+ mpg (41mpg at 70mph). Once we need something larger will probably go Mazda5, unless something else provides lower cost of ownership at the time of NEED. I have an 04 Accord (168k) and will ride it till it dies or until the Civic is freed up from my wife. I would consider a hybrid but many of them don't make it 200+k with consumer usage, same thing with an all electric. I have owned my fair share of 200k Honda's and even one 400k.

fatlittlepig · Post by **fatlittlepig** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:02 pm

Oh okay so that's why you drive cars with a reputation of spotty reliability.

TomatoTomahto wrote:
I live in a neighborhood where "status" requires at least an Aston Martin, so the Range Rovers aren't in our driveway for status. I like the fact that I can drive all the way to Maine, in any weather, and arrive without needing a chiropractor.

Nukeboilermaker · Post by **Nukeboilermaker** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:10 pm

We have a '08 Mazda 3 (Hatch) and a 07' Honda Civic. Both solid cars that seem to run reliably. My wife's honda has a very small battery so if you are not careful you can draw it down running aux systems when the engine is not running (yes I have had the battery checked and I think I might have replaced it for the hell of it after the last time). I bought my Mazda new in '08 and have close to 120k miles and would certainly recommend looking at a Mazda 3, especially if you can find one of the newer models with "sky active" which gets very good mileage. A coworker who bought one for his wife really seems to like it for their regular road trips from Central IL to Indianapolis (Where they average over 40 mpg consistently). My wife's Honda honestly gets pretty bad city mpg but then gets decent hwy. If you are looking at slightly bigger vehicles the Mazda 5 (van) and the CX-5 (built from the ground up sky active technology) are both very good and reliable.

hicabob · Post by **hicabob** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:13 pm

fatlittlepig wrote:Oh okay so that's why you drive cars with a reputation of spotty reliability.

TomatoTomahto wrote:
I live in a neighborhood where "status" requires at least an Aston Martin, so the Range Rovers aren't in our driveway for status. I like the fact that I can drive all the way to Maine, in any weather, and arrive without needing a chiropractor.

Perhaps they are unreliable but at least they get [lousy --admin LadyGeek] gas mileage and tip over easily ... but seriously - Range Rovers are comfortable and luxurious. They always have had the "cool factor" too.
I agree that the Honda Fit is among the most cost-effective/reliable/all-around-ok autos available in the US.

grabiner · Post by **grabiner** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:24 pm

As applied to cars, the Boglehead principle is buy and hold, because of high transaction costs. Buy a reliable car (so that you expect it to keep running for 150,000 miles), either new or used, and then keep it through those 150,000 miles.

There is no right car, just as there is no right portfolio; the right car is the one which satisfies your needs. This might be a hybrid for a city commuter, a small car for a long-distance highway commuter, an SUV for a driver who regularly tows trailers or hauls a lot of cargo, or a minivan for a family which often has six people in the car.

And if you can afford a Lexus and the extra features are worth it, by all means buy one, but you still want to take the best advantage of the value: buy and hold rather than leasing.

Dave76 · Post by **Dave76** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:33 pm

I think a Boglehead car is any no-frills car that is bought entirely with cash.

wilpat · Post by **wilpat** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:35 pm

An automobile is an expense! It is not and, almost never is an investment.

The one exception where automobiles were an investment --- I knew a guy about 40 years ago who bought a brand new Rolls Royce every year and had each one delivered to his air conditioned warehouse where he put it up on blocks. He sold them,1 at a time, when they reached the age of 20 years.

How much would a 20 years old Rolls Royce with 0 miles on it be worth? --- A lot!

Dave76 · Post by **Dave76** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 6:42 pm

TomatoTomahto wrote:

I live in a neighborhood where "status" requires at least an Aston Martin, so the Range Rovers aren't in our driveway for status.[/quote]

Your neighbors are lucky that I don't live there. I'd import a Soviet-made Lada and park it on the street.

Just for laughs, of course. I''d probably be the only one who would find it amusing.

TomatoTomahto · Post by **TomatoTomahto** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:10 pm

Dave76 wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote:I live in a neighborhood where "status" requires at least an Aston Martin, so the Range Rovers aren't in our driveway for status.

Your neighbors are lucky that I don't live there. I'd import a Soviet-made Lada and park it on the street. Just for laughs, of course. I''d probably be the only one who would find it amusing.

A Lada would be cool, but I don't want to misrepresent the neigborhood. There are many Rolls Royce's, Ferraris, Bentleys, and such, but also many Hondas, Subarus, and such. But, p,ease, come on down because we could use a Lada.

TomatoTomahto · Post by **TomatoTomahto** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:13 pm

fatlittlepig wrote:Oh okay so that's why you drive cars with a reputation of spotty reliability.

TomatoTomahto wrote:
I live in a neighborhood where "status" requires at least an Aston Martin, so the Range Rovers aren't in our driveway for status. I like the fact that I can drive all the way to Maine, in any weather, and arrive without needing a chiropractor.

Their reputation might be for spotty reliability, but a true BH makes up his own mind. We have owned 4 of them n 3 generations of Rover, and might buy one in the 4th generation. They have been very dependable and reliable. YMMV

Toons · Post by **Toons** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:14 pm

The Wizard wrote:Buy a brand new Honda Fit once the Escort wagon goes...

+5

skylar · Post by **skylar** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:30 pm

I have an employer-subsidized transit pass and a 15 year old (for me, at least --- bought it used) Canondale bike, though.

Curlyq · Post by **Curlyq** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:49 pm

.....

fatlittlepig · Post by **fatlittlepig** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 7:59 pm

Actually i dont and never will aspire to be a "boglehead" or whatever that means. John Bogle is a smart guy, but i'm not going to name myself after him.

TomatoTomahto wrote:
fatlittlepig wrote:Oh okay so that's why you drive cars with a reputation of spotty reliability.

TomatoTomahto wrote:
I live in a neighborhood where "status" requires at least an Aston Martin, so the Range Rovers aren't in our driveway for status. I like the fact that I can drive all the way to Maine, in any weather, and arrive without needing a chiropractor.
Their reputation might be for spotty reliability, but a true BH makes up his own mind. We have owned 4 of them n 3 generations of Rover, and might buy one in the 4th generation. They have been very dependable and reliable. YMMV

TomatoTomahto · Post by **TomatoTomahto** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:07 pm

fatlittlepig wrote:Actually i dont and never will aspire to be a "boglehead" or whatever that means. John Bogle is a smart guy, but i'm not going to name myself after him.

That's the problem with the Internet. If we were having a cup of coffee, you would have heard some of the irony when I used the phrase "true BH." I read the book "True Believers" by Eric Hoffer while in high school, and it resonated with me, so I'm probably one of the last people to name myself after anyone.

fatlittlepig · Post by **fatlittlepig** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:13 pm

thats alright, i'm only a troll online. not in real life

TomatoTomahto wrote:
fatlittlepig wrote:Actually i dont and never will aspire to be a "boglehead" or whatever that means. John Bogle is a smart guy, but i'm not going to name myself after him.
That's the problem with the Internet. If we were having a cup of coffee, you would have heard some of the irony when I used the phrase "true BH." I read the book "True Believers" by Eric Hoffer while in high school, and it resonated with me, so I'm probably one of the last people to name myself after anyone.

reisner · Post by **reisner** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:20 pm

2001 Toyota Sequoia, bought in 2009 with 41,000 miles on it for 28% of original purchase price. Seriously, there were serious reasons for buying this behemoth, but soon I'll replace it with a Honda Fit, Sport, manual. The manual trans will make sure I can never ever use valet parking, not that I'm at all prone to. Easier to get these kids to write cursive than to drive a stick.

interplanetjanet · Post by **interplanetjanet** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:25 pm

reisner wrote:2001 Toyota Sequoia, bought in 2009 with 41,000 miles on it for 28% of original purchase price. Seriously, there were serious reasons for buying this behemoth, but soon I'll replace it with a Honda Fit, Sport, manual. The manual trans will make sure I can never ever use valet parking, not that I'm at all prone to. Easier to get these kids to write cursive than to drive a stick.

Is that an issue where you live? I've never had problems doing valet parking in San Francisco with a manual. I don't tend to use it closer to home (parking isn't too crazy most other places I go).

Greenie · Post by **Greenie** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:27 pm

I have an 2009 Subaru Outback. Best car I have ever owned. As Btenny said "Luxury car with a Chevy price". The Subaru line are incredibly safe and reliable vehicles. I bought low from advice on this site when the cash for clunders program was available. I got a $4500 cash for clunder discount and talked the salesman down another 2K. I don't find driving around unreliable / unsafe cars a good value, especially considering the safety of my wife. I have had scraped knuckles and had oily hands enough in the past, not my idea of a good time. My opinion is buy new or close to new and maintain it well. If you get eight to nine years of service with fairly inexpensive repairs consider yourself fortunate and move on to another.

travellight · Post by **travellight** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 8:39 pm

No mention of the Honda Accord? I thought that was the BH car.

bengal22 · Post by **bengal22** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:17 pm

travellight wrote:No mention of the Honda Accord? I thought that was the BH car.

absolutely not

BTDT · Post by **BTDT** » Mon Jun 03, 2013 9:20 pm

livesoft wrote:Once again, Investing is not the same as Consumption.

I am not investing for investing's sake. I am investing so that I have lots more money to spend.

Right on Livesoft. I really enjoy my Lexus LS 460, and the impact on my portfolio was minimal given my Boglehead approach to investing. Life is too short not to enjoy it