Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

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DualIncomeNoDebt
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Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by DualIncomeNoDebt » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:32 pm

I generally use cash for everything, because I dislike big banks and I despise interchange fees. Have had one personal credit card for internet purchases with a low limit. So recently, just this once, I decide to apply for a "better" card. Didn't do much research on it, simply went to a review site and chose a no-fee, no annual expense card.

Am approved for a Capital One platinum mastercard. Activated it on Sunday, I think. Today I made a €5 purchase, my second transaction with the card. Within seconds, fraud alert panic. Card not working. Fraud prevention buzzing my cell phone multiple times. Call center from India speaking with me, can't understand a [-] thing they are saying. Then more calls concerning "verification," and based on their "security" questions, I know they have old and wrong credit information, mixing me with another family member with the same name. I tell them this, plainly to no avail. The call center folks are automatons, the only thing they know is what the computer screen tells them to do.

Latest: card is now locked, and they want me to fax in all kinds of [stuff] to "verify" my "identity," including driver's license, utility bills, and I think they said social security card -- not sure, I can't understand what [-] they are saying. Absent this document dump, I need to do some bank walk-in identity garbage. Didn't even ask what to do, told them point-blank it's not happening.

Just told them to [-] with it, I have a million things to do, all of them better than wasting time with this [-]. Said I'll pay off the card immediately, then cancel the account.

So my new foray into the world of personal bank credit lasted, oh, 50 hours or so. So is this how it is with personal cards? I have one business credit card, no problems or issues. But if this is how it goes with personal unsecured lines, you can keep it. For those who believe personal credit cards are better or easier than cash, come talk to me after you need to make a purchase, only to have it denied, and you're in India call loop hell. Should have known to stick with cash.
[Inappropriate and rude language removed by admin LadyGeek]

livesoft
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by livesoft » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:48 pm

O-kaaaaay. What other issues are going on in your life right now? Care to spill those beans, too?
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prudent
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by prudent » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:49 pm

That is certainly an annoying experience, but perhaps it's more about Cap One than it is about credit cards in general.

I have cards from Citibank, PenFed, Discover, Fidelity and Chase. The only time I ever got a call was when my wife bought something at Home Depot, inspected it in the car to find pieces missing, returned that one, and rebought another one. Not 20 minutes later Fidelity called to question it as they saw purchase-refund-purchase in a 10 minute period and all three were for the same amount. Never had a card frozen, never had a purchase declined (even an $5K furniture purchase). So I would not swear off credit cards totally due to your experience as it's not a common occurrence.

expat
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by expat » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:50 pm

AmEx Blue Cash Preferred

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daytona084
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Re: Credit Cards Suck

Post by daytona084 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:57 pm

DualIncomeNoDebt wrote:For those who believe personal credit cards are better or easier than cash, come talk to me after you need to make a purchase, only to have it denied, and you're in India call loop hell. Should have known to stick with cash.
Wow, you must be the unluckiest person on the planet. After 35 years with 5-6 different no-fee cards, never having paid a dime for interest or late fees, I have never had an experience like that. I don't plan to change what I'm doing.

Nummerkins
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by Nummerkins » Tue Mar 12, 2013 1:59 pm

I love credit cards.

NFL Extra points card: Spend $1000, get $400. Check, x2
American Express Gold: Spend $1000, get $500. Check, x2
Chase Business Ink: Spend $5000, get $500. Check.

Total: $2300 for shuffling some money around.

NateW
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by NateW » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:00 pm

Sorry about your experiences. I had a similar experience a couple of times (card denied, fraud alert placed on it), but due to my buying pattern setting the alert in action. The same card, on another occassion, someone in Mexico did somehow charge $850 to my account for "auto repair" and the card company knew right after it happened. These things happen.

Eventually, if you find the right card, this won't happen. Don't give up. Make the card work to your advantage, but I would not put up with this if you get no benefit from the card. My wife and I only use cash back cards with no annual fee. We use three because each one has a different category that fits our needs. The one we use the most is a 5% cash back card on gas, groceries, and healthcare (HSBC Mastercard, grandfathered, no longer available, $500 cash back limit for each of the two cards we have). The Mastercard is the one who's customer service has treated us similar to what you describe. Many times I have almost said "No more" but HSBC has gotten better about customer service (they were at the bottom of the heap) and their cash back amount is too good to pass up. I while back I got back 5% back on a $1,600 engine I bought! To get your cash reward (we choose a billing credit) we have to call HSCB (in India, like you say) and request the cash reward after listening to the credit card bill pay insurance spiel for the umpteenth time. For the other two cards, one sends us a certificate to use at Costco once a year and the other we can redeem cash rewards online.

BTW, my wife and I actually get back about $1000 per year combined among the three cards. We charge EVERYTHING possible on them (as long as "convenience fees do not apply) and pay the balance in full each month. Very convenient too. Our credit card companies pay us.

--Nate

NateW
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by NateW » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:04 pm

Nummerkins wrote:I love credit cards.

NFL Extra points card: Spend $1000, get $400. Check, x2
American Express Gold: Spend $1000, get $500. Check, x2
Chase Business Ink: Spend $5000, get $500. Check.

Total: $2300 for shuffling some money around.
Nice! :sharebeer I'll have to look for those. How do you find these deals?

--Nate

Khanmots
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by Khanmots » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:04 pm

Around last thanksgiving I was making a bunch of atypical purchases... bought a door, a grill, and something else that was 3-figures and odd all within a few hours of each other.

My bank sent me a 3 text messages, one for each transaction asking me to respond "yes" or "no" and asking if the transaction described was authorized. Nice, simple, easy. And makes me feel good that odd transactions are getting flagged. The one time I did call in after such a suspicious notification I got high quality help that knew what they were doing and was able to work outside of a script.

I'd say that all of your complaints originate with the bank you chose and aren't related to the CC itself.

Nummerkins
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by Nummerkins » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:07 pm

NateW wrote:
Nummerkins wrote:I love credit cards.

NFL Extra points card: Spend $1000, get $400. Check, x2
American Express Gold: Spend $1000, get $500. Check, x2
Chase Business Ink: Spend $5000, get $500. Check.

Total: $2300 for shuffling some money around.
Nice! :sharebeer I'll have to look for those. How do you find these deals?

--Nate
http://www.fatwallet.com/forums/finance/

Check daily for new deals. I think the Amex deal is still alive a page or two back.

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Ice-9
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by Ice-9 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:11 pm

I've taken the opposite position as the OP, trying to make as many of my purchases as possible on credit cards for at least the last ten years. My reasoning was (1) optimize cashback and (2) easy way to have a written record of all purchases to analyze my spending. As of today I have six credit cards that I use regularly, but I've never had a Capital One card (which the OP had trouble with). Just Chase, Discover, Amex, Bank of America.

So over those ten years, knock on wood, I've thankfully never had an experience like the OP describes. I have had a few occasions similar to what Prudent described above - a purchase was flagged by the credit card as suspicious and they followed up on it. Always was easy and quick to clear up with the company.

On one occasion, an automotive repair expense in Eastern Europe actually was identity theft. I had to fill out and sign a form they emailed me testifying that I didn't make the purchase and fax it in. Easy as that, I'm off the hook for a purchase I didn't make that would have cost about two weeks' pay. Meanwhile, a coworker of mine had a similar experience with a debit card that wasn't resolved nearly so easily.

So, generally, I'm pretty happy with my experience with credit cards so far. Never paid a dime of interest, and I receive almost $1000 cashback each year.

fareastwarriors
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by fareastwarriors » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:23 pm

I love credit cards. give me more!

Nummerkins
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by Nummerkins » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:35 pm

To add some substance to my previous post:

I've never had a major issue with any CC. The biggest problem I had was when Citi kept trying to 'upgrade' me to a Visa Signature card which did not report the credit limit. It took a few months to resolve and if it wasn't one of my oldest accounts I would have cancelled it. I was persistent and got it all straightened out.

OP, you didn't mention if you live outside the US or where your card was issued from. If your first purchase on a US-issued card was in a foreign currency then you can't be surprised that the fraud department flagged you.

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Toons
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by Toons » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:46 pm

No problems here with credit cards yet,40 years :happy
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bottlecap
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by bottlecap » Tue Mar 12, 2013 2:51 pm

Change your name. Having family members with the same name complicates things, especially when the fAmily member has bad credit.

JT

Sidney
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by Sidney » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:00 pm

Ice-9 wrote:I've taken the opposite position as the OP, trying to make as many of my purchases as possible on credit cards for at least the last ten years. My reasoning was (1) optimize cashback and (2) easy way to have a written record of all purchases to analyze my spending.
I use it as a cash management tool. We charge as much as we can. A few items are direct debit (e.g. electric bill, cable). DDs all hit the bank at the beginning of the month. Shortly before the end of the month, I know what the CC hit will be for the next month so I can go into VG and sell what I need to to fund the next month (retired).
I always wanted to be a procrastinator.

Sam I Am
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by Sam I Am » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:02 pm

By design, my credit union's Visa and MasterCharge cards have international purchases blocked at issue. That info is stated, though I imagine many people don't read every word of the info provided. I'm guilty!

If I want to make international purchases, other than Canada, I contact card services and my info is updated.

Yesterday I was robo-called about a purchase at a store that was "new" for me. After answering the question as to whether the purchase was legit via phone keypad, all was well. No fuss, no muss. Didn't talk to any person, just a system of some kind. Worked for me.

Sam I Am

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greg24
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by greg24 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:07 pm

20+ years of credit card use, no experience like the OP. Capitol One is the scum of the Earth, or so I hear.

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roymeo
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by roymeo » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:26 pm

Sounds like your main problem is that your name is the same as a relative with bad credit....that may follow you around no matter what company you are dealing with.

Looking at it from their perspective, "Oh no, that bad credit item/charge/account you're looking at, that's not me." is probably not all that uncommon thing for them to hear. Though a better company may deal with it actually being the case better.


Now it sounds like your account is stuck between you and another person. I hope, for your sake and for their sake, you get the account straightened out...who knows what potential problems this could introduce if either of you needs to use a credit score for any purpose or if this leads to future accounts showing up in the wrong person's record, etc.
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trudy
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by trudy » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:32 pm

bottlecap wrote:Change your name. Having family members with the same name complicates things, especially when the fAmily member has bad credit.
JT
My brother married a woman with the same first name as mine. Worse, for awhile as they were divorcing he lived in my house. Credit bureaus, it turns out, cross reference addresses of spouses so it looked like she and I lived at the same address. It took a couple of years to stop her bad debts from showing up on my credit reports. Although I will say it was easy to get them removed, since the Social Security numbers which credit bureaus are supposed to check before making entries, were, of course, not the same. Fortunately we have different middle names also. This is why I now use my middle name on all records and documents.

crowd79
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by crowd79 » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:35 pm

Let's see, the last two cards I applied for gave me $400 worth of gift cards after making my first purchase, and then 6% cashback on groceries on another card.

I love Credit Cards. Best invention ever.

mak
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by mak » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:39 pm

35 years, currently have around 15 cards mostly for points/rewards/bonuses. Never paid a fee. Never paid interest. Made lots of bonuses, flew free to Europe, So Pacific. Stayed free in hotel in Rome. Twice had a card number stolen and charges not mine, cancelled/reissued instantly, all charges reversed. In 35 years that isn't bad. No other issues. I love the bonuses, grab them every time I see a promotion that can be exploited. Just cashed a $300 reward check yesterday.

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midareff
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by midareff » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:50 pm

8 or 9 cards active. Love the rewards and must get $1500 to $2K a year cash back. Charge everything possible on cash back cards. ... even put a $5K order deposit for a new car on a 2% Amex card last year. Never pay a cent in interest and have complete fraud protection. Have been called a couple of times when something went out of profile ... like Mr. XYZ, did you buy $200 of mail order dog food an hour ago? .. or on a trip, are you at a filling station right now? and all that is OK. They are protecting both of us.

Easy Rhino
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by Easy Rhino » Tue Mar 12, 2013 3:51 pm

Wait, OP, you mention a 5 euro purchase, are you in europe?

If NOT, I recommend pulling copies of your credit report from all three bureaus. Sounds like there may be intermingling with family members that you will want to try to get corrected.

If you are in europe, then I would still try to get it sorted out, although I'm not sure how to do so.

In my experience Capital One's fraud system is a bit twitchier than other banks For instance, they have a shiny button to do a balance transfer online, but as soon as I order one, it throws my account into a lockout status and I need to call right away to get it cleared. It's actually routine now.

connya
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by connya » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:27 pm

Sidney wrote:
Ice-9 wrote:I use it as a cash management tool. We charge as much as we can. A few items are direct debit (e.g. electric bill, cable). DDs all hit the bank at the beginning of the month. Shortly before the end of the month, I know what the CC hit will be for the next month so I can go into VG and sell what I need to to fund the next month (retired).
I am in my 20's and this is by far the biggest advantage of credit cards for me as well. I do the same; fixed recurring bills via debit, everything else on credit. Knowing exactly what your expenses are going to be next month is so helpful.

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mhc
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by mhc » Tue Mar 12, 2013 4:39 pm

greg24 wrote:20+ years of credit card use, no experience like the OP. Capitol One is the scum of the Earth, or so I hear.
I've had Cap One for 10+ years. No problems. Great service. Very polite and helpful when I call them. I would highly recommend them to anyone looking for a credit card.

DualIncomeNoDebt
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by DualIncomeNoDebt » Wed Mar 13, 2013 12:18 am

The replies were informative and helpful. I've also reconsidered my position. I overreacted, guess I need some tolerance for the fact today identity theft and fraud is rampant. So I went ahead and faxed the documentation to Capital One. Also, after looking at some of the suggestions, I just got approved for a Chase "Sapphire Preferred" card for the travel bonuses. Maybe this Sapphire card will work better, because as you suggested, the issuing bank has a lot to do with the experience. So come on Chase, don't make me hate you.

scrabbler1
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by scrabbler1 » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:23 am

I rarely use my CC, often going months between purchases using it. So, when I once had a flurry of CC activity (around 5 or 6 times in one month) I was fearful that one of those transactions would get flagged, especially because a few of them were for large amounts (at least $500). But thankfully, that did not happen and each purchase went through without incident. Even though I don't use it often, this is why I have a credit card - in case something arises and I end up using it often in a short period of time (for me).

I agree with roymeo that a key element to the OP's problem was the similarity of names, and that could have posed problems no matter who the bank was.

TheOscarGuy
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by TheOscarGuy » Wed Mar 13, 2013 9:17 am

Nummerkins wrote:I love credit cards.

NFL Extra points card: Spend $1000, get $400. Check, x2
American Express Gold: Spend $1000, get $500. Check, x2
Chase Business Ink: Spend $5000, get $500. Check.

Total: $2300 for shuffling some money around.
Ditto here. 'cept don't "own" a business so don't think I would qualify for ink :D

ilisira
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by ilisira » Wed Mar 13, 2013 10:53 am

TheOscarGuy wrote:
Nummerkins wrote:I love credit cards.

NFL Extra points card: Spend $1000, get $400. Check, x2
American Express Gold: Spend $1000, get $500. Check, x2
Chase Business Ink: Spend $5000, get $500. Check.

Total: $2300 for shuffling some money around.
Ditto here. 'cept don't "own" a business so don't think I would qualify for ink :D
You can always have Sole proprietorship. I have done this many times in the past for American Express, and my wife's Ink was just activated last night for that 50K bonus points..

WHL
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by WHL » Wed Mar 13, 2013 11:22 am

TheOscarGuy wrote:
Nummerkins wrote:I love credit cards.

NFL Extra points card: Spend $1000, get $400. Check, x2
American Express Gold: Spend $1000, get $500. Check, x2
Chase Business Ink: Spend $5000, get $500. Check.

Total: $2300 for shuffling some money around.
Ditto here. 'cept don't "own" a business so don't think I would qualify for ink :D
I have the Chase Ink Plus which I use for business expenses. I'm an employee of that business. I qualified :)

I've also heard that if you sell stuff on eBay or any site like that, you should also qualify.

I need to spend another $600 or so to get my 50k points. Woop!

TheOscarGuy
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by TheOscarGuy » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:00 am

WHL wrote: I have the Chase Ink Plus which I use for business expenses. I'm an employee of that business. I qualified :)

I've also heard that if you sell stuff on eBay or any site like that, you should also qualify.

I need to spend another $600 or so to get my 50k points. Woop!
I have thought a lot about your suggestion earlier too. But I am a lowly software engineer, who sits at the desk all day and almost never travel for "business". So even though I would like to, I don't see how I can claim a business card for business related expenses. But I do agree, this is a good option for people traveling etc.

Grasshopper
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by Grasshopper » Thu Mar 14, 2013 8:29 am

mhc wrote:
greg24 wrote:20+ years of credit card use, no experience like the OP. Capitol One is the scum of the Earth, or so I hear.
I've had Cap One for 10+ years. No problems. Great service. Very polite and helpful when I call them. I would highly recommend them to anyone looking for a credit card.
I took a Cap One for the no foreign transaction feature and immediately went to Costa Rica with it never a problem. Plus enjoyed over $500 cash back from them.

WHL
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by WHL » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:10 am

TheOscarGuy wrote:
WHL wrote: I have the Chase Ink Plus which I use for business expenses. I'm an employee of that business. I qualified :)

I've also heard that if you sell stuff on eBay or any site like that, you should also qualify.

I need to spend another $600 or so to get my 50k points. Woop!
I have thought a lot about your suggestion earlier too. But I am a lowly software engineer, who sits at the desk all day and almost never travel for "business". So even though I would like to, I don't see how I can claim a business card for business related expenses. But I do agree, this is a good option for people traveling etc.
Even if you don't qualify for the Ink Plus, you can still get the Chase Sapphire Preferred which is a personal card. 40k point bonus after a 3k spend in the first 3 months. I have that one, too :)

And just because I want to mention it to someone, I spent $1500 on my card last night to complete my Ink Plus initial spend. Can't wait to get the 50k bonus points! Between those two Chase cards, I now have another free first class international flight waiting for me :)

WHL
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by WHL » Thu Mar 14, 2013 11:15 am

Grasshopper wrote:
mhc wrote:
greg24 wrote:20+ years of credit card use, no experience like the OP. Capitol One is the scum of the Earth, or so I hear.
I've had Cap One for 10+ years. No problems. Great service. Very polite and helpful when I call them. I would highly recommend them to anyone looking for a credit card.
I took a Cap One for the no foreign transaction feature and immediately went to Costa Rica with it never a problem. Plus enjoyed over $500 cash back from them.
Can you provide more information on this card? I do not see anything with such a high sign-up bonus, so I'm assuming that the $500 cash back was accrued over a while?

hsv_climber
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by hsv_climber » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:09 pm

American Express Gold is not $500 cash back. It is 50,000 points. The best redemption that I saw was for $500 HomeDepot gift cards, but I don't want that, since I would not be able to spend that much @ HomeDepot and lazy to sell.
So, I have not applied for this card yet. Otherwise, you'd need to convert the points to airlines and such. In pure cash, I think it is $250.

Also, me & my wife both got denied for Chase Ink cards (for different reasons); although, none of us has been denied for a CC (including Sapphire preferred) before. So, it is not an easy card to get. There are multiple reports on the internet about that. It seems like it depends on the analyst who'd be reviewing your case.

WHL
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by WHL » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:26 pm

hsv_climber wrote:American Express Gold is not $500 cash back. It is 50,000 points. The best redemption that I saw was for $500 HomeDepot gift cards, but I don't want that, since I would not be able to spend that much @ HomeDepot and lazy to sell.
So, I have not applied for this card yet. Otherwise, you'd need to convert the points to airlines and such. In pure cash, I think it is $250.

Also, me & my wife both got denied for Chase Ink cards (for different reasons); although, none of us has been denied for a CC (including Sapphire preferred) before. So, it is not an easy card to get. There are multiple reports on the internet about that. It seems like it depends on the analyst who'd be reviewing your case.
I think the Amex card might be in my next group of applications. It's unfortunate, however, that I missed their ridiculous 100k sign-up offer a month or two ago.

Did you call the Chase "reconsideration" line? When I applied online, I got wait listed, when I usually get immediate approval. I waited a day then called the Chase phone number. They said I had too much credit already issued (20k on the United card, 30k on the CSP), so all I had to do was transfer some from one of my other Chase cards, and bingo, approval.

hsv_climber
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by hsv_climber » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:34 pm

WHL wrote: Did you call the Chase "reconsideration" line? When I applied online, I got wait listed, when I usually get immediate approval. I waited a day then called the Chase phone number. They said I had too much credit already issued (20k on the United card, 30k on the CSP), so all I had to do was transfer some from one of my other Chase cards, and bingo, approval.
Yes, I did. And my request for transferring credit got denied. Like I wrote, it depends on your luck with the analyst.

WHL
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by WHL » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:09 pm

hsv_climber wrote:
WHL wrote: Did you call the Chase "reconsideration" line? When I applied online, I got wait listed, when I usually get immediate approval. I waited a day then called the Chase phone number. They said I had too much credit already issued (20k on the United card, 30k on the CSP), so all I had to do was transfer some from one of my other Chase cards, and bingo, approval.
Yes, I did. And my request for transferring credit got denied. Like I wrote, it depends on your luck with the analyst.
That's too bad. I would have kept climbing up the ladder, speaking to a supervisor or manager. I was determined to get that card.

I'm not a believer of luck, I believe in going after what you want!

hsv_climber
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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by hsv_climber » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:37 pm

WHL wrote: That's too bad. I would have kept climbing up the ladder, speaking to a supervisor or manager. I was determined to get that card.

I'm not a believer of luck, I believe in going after what you want!
Multiple reports on the Internet that this could've cost you another hard pull.
BTW, what is so special about this card?

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Re: Credit Cards [Bad Experience]

Post by LadyGeek » Thu Mar 14, 2013 7:47 pm

This thread is a general complaint, which has run its course and is locked. See: Forum Policy
Note that topics must be directly connected to your (or your friend's or family's) life as a consumer. General comments or complaints about these topics will be removed.

Note that this subforum has a much lower threshold for locking or removing posts than the financial and investing subforums. In general, controversial, offensive, pointless, divisive or mean-spirited posts or topics may be locked, edited or deleted (with or without notice) at the discretion of the moderating staff even if they do not otherwise violate forum policies.
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