Deciding college for High School Graduate

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FedGuy
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by FedGuy »

fsperling wrote:It's a shame to think about college as only a means to an end, in this case admission to medical school. The four years of college can be truly transformative.
I agree with that. I don't mean to question or criticize the various approaches that have been suggested to keep college costs down, but almost two decades out of college (and despite two postgraduate degrees) I realize that my time in college really contributed a huge amount to who I am as a person. To this day, the majority of my best friends are people I met in college (as opposed to the one friend I still see from high school and the one person I'm in touch with from my graduate programs), and my college alumni association is one of my primary social outlets. I can't imagine how things would be different for me if I had gone somewhere else, or if college's primary impact on me had simply been a credential to put on my resume rather than the personal growth, social relationships, etc. that evolved. I got a very generous financial aid package in college, without which I wouldn't have been able to attend, but I'm really glad that (with the financial aid taken care of) I was able to find a college that was really a good fit for me, and that attracted other students that I was able to get along with so well.

Again, I think it makes sense to do what you can to minimize college costs, but after a point I think that certain strategies may be counterproductive or otherwise too costly, in personal terms, in the long run.
travellight
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by travellight »

Thanks to all the posters for sharing the fantastic information on this thread. I am just starting to learn about this process as my son is a sophomore in HS right now. His best friend is a junior Boglehead and just doesn't know it.... he was pontificating last night about college selection and said basically that he would not incur debt to go to a big name school for undergrad; that really just matters for your graduate degree.

While I agree, I think though that if my son got into CalTech, I will fork up the money and send him there.
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cutterinnj
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by cutterinnj »

I am an MD.

I went to community college for two years, Johns Hopkins for 2 years, then a highly rated private med school for 4 years prior to residency.

If I could've gone back in time, I would've:

Gone to community college for 2 years
gone to state school on full scholarship (or even full tuition) for 2 years
gone to state med school for 4 years.

It makes little to no difference where you go to college; in fact, going to an undergrad like Hopkins may put you at a serious DISADVANTAGE when it comes to going to med school (a career I do not recommend.)

Get whatever scholarships you can, and go to the cheapest school possible. The return on investment just isn't there for anything "fancy".
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StormShadow
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by StormShadow »

travellight wrote:While I agree, I think though that if my son got into CalTech, I will fork up the money and send him there.
If you can afford to send your child to CalTech (or any other elite college/university), then sure send him there.

But if your question is... will going to CalTech help him get into medical school? The answer is no.
cutterinnj
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by cutterinnj »

Unless you know for sure that you want to be an analyst for a top financial firm on wall street, or a physics professor at Harvard, I can't think of a very good reason to go to ANY college other than your most economical choice.

In fact, I would argue that many top firms/academic jobs would look at a top student at a "non-top 10" undergrad school who chose to go there secondary to scholarship as a boon rather than a negative factor.

Don't pay the ridiculous 50k+/year at the alleged "top schools". It's just not worth it.
ThatGuy
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by ThatGuy »

fsperling wrote:It's a shame to think about college as only a means to an end, in this case admission to medical school. The four years of college can be truly transformative.
So can joining the military, or traveling to Europe (or Africa, Asia, anywhere)...

There is so much to learn about being an adult when one is 18-22, that ANY experience is hugely transformative assuming one is out of the home.

College is A Good Thing. But let's not hold it up as the ONLY place to learn valuable skills, or worse, the ONLY place you can broaden yourself as a young adult.
Work is the curse of the drinking class - Oscar Wilde
travellight
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by travellight »

cutterinnj- I don't understand why going to JHU undergrad would put you at a DISADVANTAGE for going to med school. For my experience, I did go to JHU undergrad and went to JHU med school.

Regarding Caltech and getting into med school.... not that my son wants to go to med school, but, I believe that if a top school was looking at 2 applicants with the same grades and one was coming from CalTech and the other from Cal State San Marcos (a local public school), I think the Caltech one will have the advantage.

I am in a position to hire for my group and the name brand really does play a role. It gets you in the door in a very competitive field but ultimately you have to have everything else to get the job.
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travellight
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by travellight »

As an aside, I also agree with everything Fredcouples wrote..... as well as many others.

My take home message from reading this thread:
name brand isn't everything, but if I can find a prestigious school that does have great education that he can get into, where my son is in the middle academically, and if I can afford it, that would be my choice.

I am quite frugal in some other aspects of my life (e.g., cars) but I don't mind spending money on this if I believed it would truly be a quality education and a great experience.
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cutterinnj
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by cutterinnj »

travelight-
I went to JHU in the mid '90's.
It was my experience that a LOT of really smart people went there who ended up with low GPA's who would've excelled at a cheaper state school.
They would have high 30's MCAT's and low 3's GPA's, and wouldn't get into med school.

Med schools would much rather take someone with a great GPA from noname-U than a low 3 GPA from Hopkins, which they got because their organic chem final had questions a nobel laureate could barely answer.

Not worth the stress. Certainly not worth the 50k+/year!

Now, if the kid is a certified genius, wants to do research for a certain professor AT Hopkins, and got a full scholarship, that's a different story, but the vast majority of people who go to JHU likely shouldn't have.

For med school, it matters even less. While it certainly may be a "step in the door" at certain programs to have gone to Harvard med, top residency programs will be very impressed with state school applicant (who is smart enough to make economic choices) with 240+ boards and multiple publications.
10 years later, salary wise, it makes absolutely no difference where you went.
ks289
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by ks289 »

cutterinnj wrote:travelight-
I went to JHU in the mid '90's.
It was my experience that a LOT of really smart people went there who ended up with low GPA's who would've excelled at a cheaper state school.
They would have high 30's MCAT's and low 3's GPA's, and wouldn't get into med school.

Med schools would much rather take someone with a great GPA from noname-U than a low 3 GPA from Hopkins, which they got because their organic chem final had questions a nobel laureate could barely answer.

Not worth the stress. Certainly not worth the 50k+/year!

Now, if the kid is a certified genius, wants to do research for a certain professor AT Hopkins, and got a full scholarship, that's a different story, but the vast majority of people who go to JHU likely shouldn't have.

For med school, it matters even less. While it certainly may be a "step in the door" at certain programs to have gone to Harvard med, top residency programs will be very impressed with state school applicant (who is smart enough to make economic choices) with 240+ boards and multiple publications.
10 years later, salary wise, it makes absolutely no difference where you went.
Sounds like a tough environment for pre-meds at Hopkins. I am uncertain whether it is any easier for those at public universities however. In fact there are some data out there pointing to much higher rates of grade inflation at private schools versus public which cannot be explained by differences in the student competitiveness alone (using SATs).

http://gradeinflation.com/

Look at some of the average GPAs coming out of some of the top schools and Ivies these days. They are quite high!
So if GPA matters more than the school, then perhaps these private schools are not a bad place to consider.
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bottomfisher
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by bottomfisher »

cutterinnj wrote:
Don't pay the ridiculous 50k+/year at the alleged "top schools". It's just not worth it.
As a physician as well, I strongly agree. An exception would be for truly outstanding students who have their heart set on going to one of the top medical/graduate schools as well.
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stemikger
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by stemikger »

cutterinnj wrote:I am an MD.

I went to community college for two years, Johns Hopkins for 2 years, then a highly rated private med school for 4 years prior to residency.

If I could've gone back in time, I would've:

Gone to community college for 2 years
gone to state school on full scholarship (or even full tuition) for 2 years
gone to state med school for 4 years.

It makes little to no difference where you go to college; in fact, going to an undergrad like Hopkins may put you at a serious DISADVANTAGE when it comes to going to med school (a career I do not recommend.)

Get whatever scholarships you can, and go to the cheapest school possible. The return on investment just isn't there for anything "fancy".
+1
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travellight
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by travellight »

I think if money is an issue, and I realize it is for most people, don't go to the big name school that is expensive. ROI may not be worth it financially.

For me, when it comes to education for my son, money is not an issue. I am paying 26K per year for private school now when we have a top public high school for free that is a big name and well recognized. I just believe that this particular private school is considerably better in terms of the educational experience, and a better fit for my kid because it is a more nurturing and yet challenging environment.

Likewise, if he had the chops to get into a school like Caltech and worked hard enough for it, you betcha I am going to send him there and pay for it. I sometimes feel accused of being cheap on some threads because I am frugal in terms of my threshold of what I am willing to spend on myself or how much I feel I need to retire but this is an area where I feel the opposite way.

cutterinnj- true, if someone ends up swimming with the sharks being premed at JHU and ends up in the bottom third where they might have ended up in the top third at the state university, that would have been a bad move for them. That is quite a statement and assumption though that if they were bottom third of a school like JHU, they could have been top third at state U.
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Bfwolf
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by Bfwolf »

There are some states where the flagship public university is so outstanding and relatively affordable, I think it would be a bit crazy to go anywhere else unless there was a significant financial aid package involved.

Michigan is one of those states. Unless your daughter can get the huge scholarship to Vanderbilt or Duke like another poster's child, Ann Arbor ought to be the first choice.

Ironically, when I graduated from high school in California, I was this close to going to Michigan until, at the last moment, I came to my Boglehead senses and realized that California is also one of those states. Going to Berkeley is one of the best financial decisions I've ever made, and I had a great experience there.

I'm sure your daughter would have a great experience at Michigan.
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StormShadow
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by StormShadow »

travellight wrote:I think if money is an issue, and I realize it is for most people, don't go to the big name school that is expensive. ROI may not be worth it financially.
Just my opinion, but the ROI of an expensive undergraduate school is rarely worth it financially. Now, the ROI of a similarly expensive graduate school (e.g. law school, business school, med school) is an entirely different matter.
travellight wrote: cutterinnj- true, if someone ends up swimming with the sharks being premed at JHU and ends up in the bottom third where they might have ended up in the top third at the state university, that would have been a bad move for them. That is quite a statement and assumption though that if they were bottom third of a school like JHU, they could have been top third at state U.
Its not that much of an assumption when you consider the caliber of students that they would be competing with at state U versus JHU. Unless the state U is called UC Berkeley or UVA, chances are it would be considerably less difficult to consistently rank high in class.
MathWizard
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Re: Deciding college for High School Graduate

Post by MathWizard »

ram wrote:
MathWizard wrote:
ram wrote:I am an MD with 2 kids in college and the older gave her MCAT exam last week.

Both kids applied for about 10 schools. They had ACT scores of 35 and 36 and both applied to the flagship state school and the flagship neighboring state school (same tuition) as their safe bets. They then applied (mostly) to 2nd rung brand name schools hoping to get some merit scholarships.

Daughter had the option of attending Duke or Johns Hopkins for full tuition or state school on a scholarship and opted for the state school.

Son is attending Vanderbilt on merit scholarship which makes it cheaper than the state school.

We avoided the Ivy schools as they do not give merit scholarships. As others have said it is probably not a good idea to get into large debts for undergrad education. There is plenty of opportunity to do that while in med school.
Wow, congratulations on the success of your children.

If I may ask, what was the reason your daughter declined Johns Hopkins. I thought that was among the elite of medical schools.
My son (HS senior, National Merit Finalist) is thinking of grad school someplace like that in bio-mechanics after a Mechanical Eng.
undergrad, with bio-mechanics emphasis.
Johns Hopkins is indeed an elite med school and she will likely not refuse admission to its med school if she is offered admission.
She graduated from High School in 2010 and declined undergrad admission at Hopkins. The reason was purely financial. It would cost upward of 220,000 for 4 yrs of undergrad education at Hopkins (tuition + living expenses). It looks like she will be completing her BS (Biology) with a minor in Global Health at the state flagship Univ in 3.5 yrs at a net cost of about 60K. She will apply to med schools this June and Johns Hopkins will be one of them. She has thus saved >160K which should cover at least 2.5 yrs of med school education.

Best luck to your son. My son was also a National Merit finalist and is getting some scholarship from Vanderbilt for that reason. There was at least one university (? Oklahoma) which was willing to waive all the tuition for 4 yrs for any National Merit scholar.
Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you meant by full tuition that she was offered a full tuition scholarship to Johns Hopkins. Instead, she was
choosing between a full tuition scholarship at the state school, and no, or little, scholarship at an elite school.

In understand that choice, since I made the same decision, MIT with no scholarship, or a state school with full tuition scholarship. I really wished I could
have gone to MIT, but I could not afford MIT, and state schools allowed me to get eventually get a PhD.

Good luck to your daughter.
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