Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

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DJB
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Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by DJB »

Hi All,

I wanted to ask for your guidance on buying a CPO car and negotiating the best deal. I posted several months ago about whether or not I could afford this splurge, and in part due to your feedback I decided to go for it. I am also taking the advice for the post-- buying used and paying cash that I've saved (I have $36K in my account earmarked for this car... my upper limit including all taxes/fees). This will be my first car purchase (I've driven a gifted car for 9 years).

After test driving most of the cars in the market, I decided the one I want is a BMW 335i coupe. I am looking at CPO options only, because I can't/don't want to pay new car price, and also because this model has a known issue with the fuel pumps, so I want the warranty protection. There are several cars in my area within my price range-- 2009 models with about 30K miles with all the features I'd want. List prices are 34-35K. My plan is to drive this car for 3-4 years until the warranty expires and then look to sell and replace (maybe something more practical? I'm 27 now and may need to start thinking family car).

Anyway, my questions are:
How should I negotiate the best price? There are several cars in my area that would meet my needs, and as I mentioned I can use the cash appeal as leverage. How much do I initially offer? What might I be able to get a car like this for?
There are models with closer to 50K miles listed for significantly less... more like 30K. Should I consider these also, or is this too many miles for a car not known for reliability?
Is my 3-4 year plan reasonable?
Any other thoughts/comments that might be useful.

Outside of graduate school, this is the most money I've ever spent, and even though I recognize this is a selfish indulgence, the boglehead in me wants to ensure I do this the right way and get the best possible deal. Thanks in advance for your feedback!
TT
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by TT »

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stevewolfe
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by stevewolfe »

I agree with the above. I'm on my third Corolla, the last one I bought 1 year old (it was a demonstration car) with 5,390 miles on it for $11,695. I drove it for 10 and a half years and put 239,000 miles on it. I still pass it on the highway, I sold it to a friend of mine for his kids use. The only repair, other than oil changes, tire changes and routine maintenance, was to replace the drivers side seat belt once as it started to stick.

My current one is a 2009, 4 years old with 78,000 miles on it and I paid $18,000 for it new on the lot with the options I wanted. I've done nothing other than the maintenance in the owners manual. It has a timing chain, not a belt, so maintenance costs are lower over the life of the car. My commute is 95% highway and I consistently get in the mid-40's MPG with this car.

I'd recommend to buy a bullet proof, reliable, average cost vehicle like the above and invest the rest. It's a depreciating asset after all.

That said, you've saved for it and as long as you can justify it, that's all that matters. I have this discussion each time I get a new Thinkpad - can I really justify the price difference and I can (build quality, dependability, ease of maintenance, engineering flexibility, etc). Maybe you feel the same way about the BMW. But it is a good exercise to stop and ask, "Am I getting 2x the utility from my used BMW that I would from a new Corolla?" ... for example. Good luck... :D
Last edited by stevewolfe on Sat Oct 06, 2012 6:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
wilked
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by wilked »

Gotta agree with the above. If some luxury is what you crave, find a used Nissan Maxima, the 6 cyclinder engines are near bulletproof, look for 40-50K on the engine (just getting broken in), drivie it for 150k, rinse and repeat, save untold thousands
johnny72
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by johnny72 »

I bought a similar car for cash in 1999 and drove it for 9 years before selling it.

It is very true that I would have more money today if I had bought a car like I have today instead but forget that. Driving a BMW is a completely different experience than my Nissan Altima today. My Nissan feels like a cheap plastic knock off that corners like a moving van. Beyond that, if you're single then sorry to say it matters what car you drive.

I'm perfectly content with my Nissan today but that's in large part because I got to drive a BMW for nearly 10 years.
swaption
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by swaption »

I bought a 2009 CPO 328 xdrive earlier this year. Price was already great, but was able to negotiate about $800 off the price. Got it for $23.7k with about 40k miles on it. I put very low miles on my car, so I wanted the high mileage. I think it depends on how you expect to use the car.

If this is the direction you want to go, as crazy as this may seem, you may want to look at leasing a new car. I say this because of your comment about keeping it for 3-4 years. Leasing is not cheap, but neither is what you are planning to do, so I would just do the math. An important consideration is that a new BMW comes with scheduled maintenance included. In a new car lease, you are given credit for relative good residual value right now, as opposed to what you might get in a private sale or a trade in 3-4 years from now. It's also a risk transfer such that BMW retains the risk associated with any circumstance that might impair resale of the car.
ks289
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by ks289 »

johnny72 wrote:
It is very true that I would have more money today if I had bought a car like I have today instead but forget that. Driving a BMW is a completely different experience than my Nissan Altima today. My Nissan feels like a cheap plastic knock off that corners like a moving van.
Agree.
This is why it can be difficult in 3-4 years to replace the vehicle with a practical family car.
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magellan
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by magellan »

Just so folks know, the 'should he or shouldn't he' thread is over here. The OP has weighed the options and wants to go for it and IMO we should respect that (at least on this thread).

Considering everything, I think the OP's approach is reasonable overall, but here are a couple of other considerations.

First, I wonder if sticking only to cars with a warranty is necessary. I can see the appeal of limiting the downside with some insurance, especially with a BMW. But you'll probably pay a premium for this coverage over self-insuring. A private party sale may be better financially if you can negotiate well. Of course, with this approach, you need to have enough emergency cash on hand to cover sudden repair costs and you need to be mentally prepared for the ouch factor. You'll be taking some risk similar to folks with high auto and homeowner deductibles. OTOH, you'll enjoy a solid risk-premium in return for taking the risk. As a trade, you could knock your equity holdings down a percent or two :wink:

Second, IMO the key factor for negotiating the best a price on a used car is to know the market. Spend time at edmunds.com, Kelly Blue Book, and cars.com to get a feel for the market. Do a really wide search on Craigslist and cars.com and others with a helper like autotempest.com. Getting to know the market in your region will give you the information you need to negotiate the best possible deal.

Jim
Last edited by magellan on Sat Oct 06, 2012 7:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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magellan
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by magellan »

One other thought. The fact that you're paying cash is probably a net negative as far as dealers are concerned. They often make more money on the financing and warranty than they do on the car itself.

Jim
awval999
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by awval999 »

magellan wrote:Just so folks know, the 'should he or shouldn't he' thread is over here. The OP has weighed the options and wants to go for it and IMO we should respect that (at least on this thread).
I'm glad someone said this. Like clockwork the first three posts are about Camrys and Corollas.
The man wants a BMW and we should respect that.
ks289
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by ks289 »

awval999 wrote:
magellan wrote:Just so folks know, the 'should he or shouldn't he' thread is over here. The OP has weighed the options and wants to go for it and IMO we should respect that (at least on this thread).
I'm glad someone said this. Like clockwork the first three posts are about Camrys and Corollas.
The man wants a BMW and we should respect that.
You are correct.
However, i understand why It is hard on this site to start a thread about the best way to buy a relatively new luxury car to use for 3-4 years without some offering their opinions about that decision itself.

Just look at the kind of responses one gets from the tilting threads! :D
timmy
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by timmy »

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magellan
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by magellan »

timmy wrote:Regarding whether a higher or lower mileage car is better... it should be reflected in the price. So only you can answer the question (your need/want versus your budget).
One factor here is the cost to you of down-time and the grief involved in a trip to the shop. Although the differences in repair costs are roughly priced in, if you work next to a BMW dealer, you have an advantage compared to an average buyer and a higher mileage car might be better for you. OTOH, if the dealer is 100 miles away, a lower mileage car may be a better value.

Jim
jlj
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by jlj »

awval999 wrote:
magellan wrote:Just so folks know, the 'should he or shouldn't he' thread is over here. The OP has weighed the options and wants to go for it and IMO we should respect that (at least on this thread).
I'm glad someone said this. Like clockwork the first three posts are about Camrys and Corollas.
The man wants a BMW and we should respect that.
I agree with this, but how do you know OP is a man?
rotorhead
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by rotorhead »

Hi DJB,

I may be castigated for saying so; but if that's an itch you must scratch; then I say go for it. Our investment philosophy is Bogleheadian(?), and we are doing OK; but my wife and I like to drive nice cars. I bought a 1995 BMW 525i in 1998, as a CPO; and drove it for 12 years. Was a wonderful driving experience; one of the most finely balanced cars I've ever driven, but the maintenance costs over time were substantial. I kept detailed records, and my excel spread sheet was 3 pages long! I drove it 128,000 miles, and sold it at then fair market value within 3 days of listing it for sale. BMW continues to be a fine automobile; but I am cured.

My current car is 2008 M-B E350; bought last year as CPO, with 2-year warranty. Car was low mileage (28,000), had all the features I wanted; and I was very impressed by M-B's CPO inspection and service process. I re-searched the car thoroughly, I shopped hard for the right car, and the right dealer; and got what I considered to be a very good deal - on the last day of the month. Gotta make those quotas, you know!

Have driven it 12,000 miles to date; and it's a much more refined driving experience. My first service was at 10,000 miles; and cost $450.
Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by magellan » Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:19 am
Just so folks know, the 'should he or shouldn't he' thread is over here. The OP has weighed the options and wants to go for it and IMO we should respect that (at least on this thread).

Considering everything, I think the OP's approach is reasonable overall, but here are a couple of other considerations.

First, I wonder if sticking only to cars with a warranty is necessary. I can see the appeal of limiting the downside with some insurance, especially with a BMW. But you'll probably pay a premium for this coverage over self-insuring. A private party sale may be better financially if you can negotiate well. Of course, with this approach, you need to have enough emergency cash on hand to cover sudden repair costs and you need to be mentally prepared for the ouch factor. You'll be taking some risk similar to folks with high auto and homeowner deductibles. OTOH, you'll enjoy a solid risk-premium in return for taking the risk. As a trade, you could knock your equity holdings down a percent or two :wink:

Second, IMO the key factor for negotiating the best a price on a used car is to know the market. Spend time at edmunds.com, Kelly Blue Book, and cars.com to get a feel for the market. Do a really wide search on Craigslist and cars.com and others with a helper like autotempest.com. Getting to know the market in your region will give you the information you need to negotiate the best possible deal.

Jim
That's great advice from Jim. Also take a look at Auto Trader.com. I found that site to be extremely helpful; saves a lot of time driving around looking. That's how I found my present car, and sold my old one. http://www.autotrader.com/

You may develop a love/hate relationship with the BMW over time; but it's a great driving experience.
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touchdowntodd
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by touchdowntodd »

i would never drive a german car because of upkeep

but if you are heart set on it, with a BMW i would only go precertified unless you know a good mechanic to cehck it out and find a great deal on a used one privately... too many would be issues on those cars

ps - one more for the toyota only crowd and invest the rest :)
tryin to do this right... thanks guys
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magellan
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by magellan »

jlj wrote:I agree with this, but how do you know OP is a man?
That was my bad. I did think about this as I wrote the post, but I was lazy and decided to just play the odds. Universal acceptance of gender neutral pronouns would be a great enhancement to the English language.

Here's a good article about auto brands and sex stereotypes:
Guy Cars vs. Gal's Cars

If the OP is female, she might be interested in this study
Weird Study: Female BMW owners wear sexy lingerie

:shock:

Edit: To keep this balanced, the study above offered this tidbit too:
“[5 percent] of male BMW drivers wear a thong and eight percent of older men are more likely to go commando!”
Jim
Last edited by magellan on Sat Oct 06, 2012 8:47 am, edited 2 times in total.
gt4715b
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by gt4715b »

DJB wrote: How should I negotiate the best price? There are several cars in my area that would meet my needs, and as I mentioned I can use the cash appeal as leverage. How much do I initially offer? What might I be able to get a car like this for?
Check cars.com in your area, doing a wide geographic search. You can sort by CPO cars. You're much more likely to get a better price by not being picky with regards to color or mileage than by negotiating. Dealers do sometimes have specials when they want to move a particular car. BTW, are you looking for an automatic or manual? I was shocked to see 90% of the 335i coupes are automatic.
DJB wrote: There are models with closer to 50K miles listed for significantly less... more like 30K. Should I consider these also, or is this too many miles for a car not known for reliability?
The difference between mileage isn't an indicator of how reliable a given car will be. As long as it's been checked out (as all CPOs have been) you're basically at the mercy of luck. Therefore I would tend to go for a higher mileage car. 50k over 3 years is only 17k/yr
DJB wrote: Is my 3-4 year plan reasonable?
Probably not if you think this will be the type of car you'll like to drive from here on out. If you keep driving the car until it's old the cost of ownership becomes much lower although you have to keep in mind the ownership costs of this car are much higher than normal cars, insurance, premium gas. Even though you have the money to buy the car are you ready for $1,200 sets of tires, $700-800 brake jobs, etc? If so, why not just keep the car and when you have a family let your partner drive the responsible family car?

If you think this is likely a temporary phase, a lease is probably a better option and you'll save money also, especially if you don't have a long commute so that you can go for a low mileage contract lease.
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touchdowntodd
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by touchdowntodd »

ps - remember that wonderfull german engineering and how the 80k mark somes and hits you hard with repairs .. just something to think about .. suspension rebuilds etc
tryin to do this right... thanks guys
BogleBrit
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by BogleBrit »

I bought a CPO 330i nearly 4 years ago and still love it. No regrets at all so far and I would definitely do it again. A couple of thoughts on what I learned:

1) As you do your research you will find a very large variation in prices for cars that appear to have the same specs. Ignore much of what you see (everyone on line says they got a better deal than the one you are looking at) and try to narrow in on the cars that you would actually buy. I looked at cars that were $25k but ended up paying $31K. After looking and driving cars in the $25k - $27k range I realized I did not want one in the condition they were in or with the high miles so moved my range up.
2) Try to decide what features are essential, nice to haves and don't cares for you and it will help you decide if you want to walk away from a particular deal or not. I ended up paying more than I hoped to pay, probably about $1k over, because I wanted that car I had found. It had the exact specs I wanted in terms of features and colors. It was as if I had gone through and picked the options off of the new car list and ordered it. That was worth the money to me rather than walking away and buying a 'fairly' priced or cheaper car that did not make me as 'happy' every time I get in it.
3) Remember this is a business transaction. The car dealer may be nice but he is trying to get the best deal he can for himself. The CPO inspection is very general. Ask for copies of the inspection and the service history before you buy the car. Has it had the fuel pump changed already ? Is it covered by the extended warranty on the fuel pump ? I think from late 2010 they changed the fuel pump design but look into that and look at the car very carefully. Check the tires and bodywork as if you were buying it from a random person from an ad in the paper. Getting it inspected by a mechanic you trust could still be a good idea although I did not.
4) CPO is NOT the same as the full warranty and does NOT include the free maintenance. This is most important. Once the car is 4 years old you will not get free oil changes or brake pad changes etc. Check to see if the brakes have been changed recently and if not if they will likely get changed before the 4 year period runs out. BWM does not change things because you want them to. It is all done per the computer so you can't just take it in and get the brakes changed because the 4 year period is up. Take all of this into consideration when negotiating the price.

Good Luck !!
TheGreyingDuke
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by TheGreyingDuke »

My name is GreyingDuke and I am a German car addict.Sometimes, even years on end, I convince myself I am "cured", driving Hondas and Mazdas. But then I pass a car lot and see the get ready stance of a car from the Fatherland and like a crack addict, I am in the showroom signing the papers. Oh I know all about how the euphoria of that first day will be unmatched, except by the relief of the last day when I see it being piloted down my drive by the lucky next owner. But still, nothing can match the roadability and driveability of the Deutschland specials. :happy

Ok, now to get serious, my current drive is a 2009 VW Jetta Sportswagen, a rare model with the exalted 2 litre turbo engine. It sings as it goes down the road. I bought this as a CPO after a nationwide search turned up exactly two examples. Keep in mind that the CPO process has cost the dealer somewhere north of $1200 and that cost is built into the price you pay. The advantages are obvious and knowing that they have gone over the car very carefully is reassuring.I was shown the check list that they needed to complete for VW. In 12,000 miles I had one covered repair, a leaky turbo seal which cost me the $50 per warranty visit fee, otherwise would have been about $150, not a great savings.

On the other hand, if I could have done the deal with the original owner who was in possession of all the service records, a check over by a reliable mechanic would have given me all the assurances I needed. A private party purchase from the original owner gives e a chance to have him/her take me for a drive so I can assess how they treat the car. It all depends how much risk you are prepared to assume. You and I KNOW that buying the BMW is not a decision that makes economic sense, but that is true for many of our consumer decisions. As long as your long-term investment plan is on track, I say go for it.

In the case of my purchase, it was a 6-speed and it was at a dealership where there was little demand for manual transmissions, so I was able to strike a decent deal.

Most important is the advice to know what the market is and to not exceed it.

One other possibility, there are used car dealers who specialize in buying high end off lease cars at the large auctions. These can sometimes be a happy middle ground between CPO and private party, did this once with an Audi and it worked out
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Gort
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by Gort »

I bought a 2006 CPO 330 coupe in 2008. It replaced a 2003 325 sedan I bought new. I'm very happy with both purchases and the driving experience is wonderful. Obviously some people aren't concerned about this but I am and I'll pay extra for the experience. I don't know what price you can put on buying a cheaper car and pocketing the difference. In the big scheme of things, the difference in dollars saved may not compensate you for the experience lost. (You can probably say this about many things in life!!). CPO prices are hard to negotiate because of the extended warranty the CPO program offers. Peace of mind from having an extended warranty may be worth it to you - it was for me. It adds to the overall driving experience and pride of ownership. On a different, but somewhat related topic, some ORIGINAL owners purchase the BMW extended maintenance program. If they did, the remaining time on the extended maintenance program is transferrable to the new owner under the CPO program. I would offer 10% less than the asking price but settle for 3-5% off. Good luck!
stupidkid
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by stupidkid »

Hi,

I was in much the same boat last year (even looking at the same car) when I ultimately decided on a 2009 135i. It's still under the original factory warranty and I've loved the car thus far, no major issues but everything has been covered by the manufacturer service plan. To the toyota suggestions, I agree with the other posters, get what you want.

As for negotiating the price and your other questions:

1. I bought my car from an import car sales guy who picked it up at auction. We haggled pretty hard but I didn't get much off at the end since his price was already at or below market (plus the 135i is not that common, mine especially had all the specific options I wanted which I couldn't find anywhere, period). I picked it up for $28.5k cash, 23k on the clock if I recall. When I was originally looking at 335i, I saw one for private sale at $31k (iirc). But that was private sale and had 35k miles on it (again iirc). Given that it's CPO, figure you add $2k to the cost of the car. While the N54 twin-turbo issues are well=known, they're also covered up to 100k without a CPO warranty, you don't need a CPO to cover the HPFP issues. The CPO warranty will cover other major items but I would only really be concerned about CPO if you got the iNav system or their funky transmission which was also new that year. If you get a stick, you should be fine without CPO unless you really want that piece of mind.

2. Any car you're looking to buy, ask the dealership for the service records. That will give you an indication of whether you're getting a lemon or not. 30k vs 50k miles is irrelevant, if the car had issues, they would have surfaced before 30k. My only concern would be that 50k is a lot of mileage for a 4 year old car, 15k+/year.

3. The problem with the N54 is that in 3-4 years you'll be beyond the 100k manufacturer warranty on the HPFP and if I was car-shopping, I'd be leery about picking up this particular car. I'm planning on selling my 135i in a year or two while it still has many miles to go before the warranty expires. 335s are cool cars, someone will always buy it, but you'll probably get hosed in the end and lose cash, so factor that in. To the other pragmatic posters, this isn't a toyota, most people will know that you're selling a car with some gremlins.

4. Have fun! I found the 335i to be a little big for my tastes, the 135 is a lot of fun to toss around the 335 is more and more a cruiser but nevertheless it's a great car. That said, unless you're a horsepower addict (which I can appreciate), seriously consider the 328i. It's plenty powerful and the weight distribution and handling are actually a little better than the 335i. Additionally, you can drive it to the limits more since you don't have gobs of power under your foot, it'll be more reliable, lower insurance, lower taxes, etc. While I like my 135i, I sometimes think I should have gotten the 128i and then be able to redline it more often.
rallycobra
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by rallycobra »

How much are you going to budget for tires and wheels? 335's come with run flats, and the tires 'break' before the wear out. A big pothole and boom! The tire gets an egg on the sidewall, and the wheel is bent. I purchased 1/2 used run flats on ebay before turning in my 335 lease. On that car you need to budget at least $1000 a year.

Have you driven the new 328? Just lease one of those and get the tire insurance.

Best way to negotiate is to offer a price that you think is a good deal, and then leave the building. They will call and keep coming down in price over the next few days unless they have another buyer. It takes more effort and you may lose the vehicle but that is the way to get the best price. I've done this a couple of times on different calls and both times I got calls from sales people that their manager said if I come in and sign the papers today, the car is mine.

I would say a 3 yr old CPO 335 will sell at about 70% of MSRP
4 yr old 335 will sell at about 60% MSRP. If you can do better than that you are getting a good deal.
BMW's hold their value well so they are easier to lease but harder to purchase. Once the warranty is up I don't know easy it will be to sell a 335.

Educate yourself on all things bmw with pricing and invoice data here:
http://www.e90post.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=30
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strafe
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by strafe »

The fuel pump issue is a non-issue. It costs at most $400 to replace out of pocket. More importantly, it is covered under the original BMW warranty for 10 years/120k miles regardless of CPO status.

The more expensive repair is the turbo wastegate, which is prone to failure on the earlier models (prior to late 2008). The turbo is also covered by an 8yr/82k mile warranty, again irrespective of whether you buy a CPO car.

You really should consider leasing. BMW inflates the lease-end residual value which lowers your depreciation costs. Over 3-4 yrs, you are almost certain to come out ahead leasing. Having recently run the numbers with BMW's lease offers (which you can probably negotiate further), buying new doesn't save you money unless you keep the car at least 6 years (and that's ignoring that the lease keeps you in a newer car).
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Mister Whale
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by Mister Whale »

.....
Last edited by Mister Whale on Sat Mar 09, 2013 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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arkerr123
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by arkerr123 »

My best recommendation for any negotiation is to understand the seller's interest. This can be difficult, but does not need to.

This is what I did for my most recent car: a 2010 VW CC, certified used with 32k miles.
  • 1. Go to Cars.com
    2. Search for what you are looking for: Certified BMW 3Series?
    3. Make the search rather wide, 250 miles.
    4. Now the best part, look at the FREE carfax. You can identify when the car was sold.
If the car arrived on the dealership's lot two weeks ago, they will not be very motivated to sell. If it has been there a few months, they will be more likely.

For me, this resulted in getting my 2010 VW CC (manual) for 18.5K when Kbb suggested a value of 23K. I basically got it for trade in... but I had to drive for 4 hours both ways to get the car.
jda
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by jda »

I am actually looking for a similar spec car as you and here is a few things you should consider.

1. Time is on your side, F32 coupe will be coming out next year so once it comes out, E92 coupes will depreciate more.
2. Most of the CPO cars are 3 year leased vehicles coming back to the dealer, so if you can't get the price you want you can always wait for 2010 next year.
3. check e90 forum to get some opinions/stats on 09 e92 cpo pricing http://www.e90post.com/forums/forumdisp ... order=desc
4. There is a rebate going on where BMW will cover the first 3 payments up to $500/payment when you finance at 3.9% and after 6 payments (6months) you can pay the whole thing off. So this will knock off another 1k.
5. I would aim for the low 30s (30k, 31k) and see if the dealer is interested, if they are, they would start talking with you. If they aren't you can always wait for the next one. Like I said, there are plenty more of E92 coming back so no needs to get desperate.
6. As for the run flats as the previous poster has mentioned, don't bother with them. You are better off get 4 normal tires and get a AAA membership. Everyone I know who owns a bimmer is doing that.
7. Please get a stick...lol it's much more fun than an auto.

Edit:
one more thing if you are concern about the fuel pump, there is more reasons to get a 2010 where the engine is updated from twin turbo (N54) to a single turbo (N55) which supposed to address the fuel pump problem.
thebogledude
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by thebogledude »

I think OP's trepidation is in negotiating for the car, not whether to buy 335i or not. The key is to go in armed with data like blue book value, market value of the car, etc., even knowing how much the dealer paid for the car would help and negotiate. I would go to your 2nd or 3rd dealer and negotiate to see where they are willing to sell. Start out with a low ball offer with your target around invoice + $500 as your final price. This will give you an idea where you should be at when you go to your primary dealer. I also think the sales people can smell that you've saved up and that you won't settle for a toyota. So you have to be prepared to walk out and not be emotionally attached to the car, which is going to be difficult because you probably are. I think Mark Cuban does it best on Shark Tank, when he listens to pitches for investment money and have to bid with the other sharks. He goes about it in a non-emotional way than the other sharks, he pretty much tells the people, here' s my offer, you have one minute to decide, take it or leave it and when people hesitate, he says he's out. This is how I will buy my next car.
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interplanetjanet
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by interplanetjanet »

magellan wrote:If the OP is female, she might be interested in this study
Weird Study: Female BMW owners wear sexy lingerie
One hardly needs to remind this crowd, however, that past performance is no guarantee of future results. ;)

-janet [former bmw driver]
swaption
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by swaption »

stupidkid wrote:Hi,

4. Have fun! I found the 335i to be a little big for my tastes, the 135 is a lot of fun to toss around the 335 is more and more a cruiser but nevertheless it's a great car. That said, unless you're a horsepower addict (which I can appreciate), seriously consider the 328i. It's plenty powerful and the weight distribution and handling are actually a little better than the 335i. Additionally, you can drive it to the limits more since you don't have gobs of power under your foot, it'll be more reliable, lower insurance, lower taxes, etc. While I like my 135i, I sometimes think I should have gotten the 128i and then be able to redline it more often.
I'll chime in here. Love my 328i and the straight six is just a fantastic engine. As you can see from my earlier post, I saved around $10k relative to what you are thinking. I'll also say that avoiding a coupe could be a happy middle ground enabling longer term ownership as 4 doors can be more family friendly. Granted, not easy to ever characterize a BMW as the fiscally responsible choice, but I think I feel pretty good about the money I spent on a CPO that I hope to keep for 10 years. You'll also be able to get much better deals on a CPO 328i. It's really all about supply and demand, and nothing to do with value. There are just so may 328i's that come off lease and the dealers have to move them, because there are always more coming in. But the CPO buyer is very different from the new lessee. Simply put, the CPO buyer is someone like you that wants something powerful, cool, and perhaps even with a manual transmission. Besides the fact that I likely needed an automatic so my wife could easily drive the car, it was far more difficult to get a good deal on a manual, so I ended up with an automatic. While one might expect an automatic to cost more, it's just not easy to find an off lease manual. Granted, a 328i is not the 335i, but it's a heck of a lot closer to that than it is to a Camry.
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aja8888
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by aja8888 »

interplanetjanet wrote:
magellan wrote:If the OP is female, she might be interested in this study
Weird Study: Female BMW owners wear sexy lingerie
One hardly needs to remind this crowd, however, that past performance is no guarantee of future results. ;)

-janet [former bmw driver]
Other data from the British study mentioned by Janet above:

“One in 20 (5 percent) of male BMW drivers wear a thong and eight percent of older men are more likely to go commando!” ( Now that really made us burst in tears of laugh)

One in ten think their vehicle choice makes them seem more intelligent


(Plus the gal in the photo has California plates on her 740!)
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LazyNihilist
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by LazyNihilist »

I have a feeling these surveys find whatever they are willing to look for.
The strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must -Thucydides
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topper1296
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by topper1296 »

touchdowntodd wrote:i would never drive a german car because of upkeep
This is exactly why I decided against BMW when I bought my last car 7 years ago. I purchased a used Acura and have been very happy with it.
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linuxuser
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by linuxuser »

topper1296 wrote:
touchdowntodd wrote:i would never drive a german car because of upkeep
This is exactly why I decided against BMW when I bought my last car 7 years ago. I purchased a used Acura and have been very happy with it.
I have been thinking about getting an Acura the next time.
Did you buy CPO for your Acura?

There is alot to be said for no upkeep.
I have 155K miles on my 2004 Honda Accord and not a single instance of needing to be in the shop [knock on wood].
With the limited timeoff policy of my employer, I can't see having to be at the dealership for fixes even if the repair was covered by a warranty.
Tabulator
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by Tabulator »

linuxuser wrote:I have been thinking about getting an Acura the next time.
It is very nice to see a brand-new Acura (the ILX) available for $26,000 -- nearly the same price as a new Honda Civic Natural Gas. I haven't seen the ILX in person yet, but it looks like a much better deal than an overpriced 3-Series BMW.
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by jda »

multivoiced wrote:
linuxuser wrote:I have been thinking about getting an Acura the next time.
It is very nice to see a brand-new Acura (the ILX) available for $26,000 -- nearly the same price as a new Honda Civic Natural Gas. I haven't seen the ILX in person yet, but it looks like a much better deal than an overpriced 3-Series BMW.

Spending 26k for a dressed up Civic is not overpaying? lol
Stop comparing a front wheel drive Japanese car to a rear wheel drive German car because there is really no comparison as far as driving dynamic is concerned.
Tabulator
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by Tabulator »

jda wrote:Stop comparing a front wheel drive Japanese car to a rear wheel drive German car because there is really no comparison as far as driving dynamic is concerned.
I hope you will enjoy the engineering dynamic and prestige of your purchase. You've earned it.
KyleAAA
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by KyleAAA »

I don't find your 3-4 year plan very reasonable at all. Unless you're making $150k+ per year, that is.
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aja8888
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by aja8888 »

linuxuser wrote:
topper1296 wrote:
touchdowntodd wrote:i would never drive a german car because of upkeep
This is exactly why I decided against BMW when I bought my last car 7 years ago. I purchased a used Acura and have been very happy with it.
I have been thinking about getting an Acura the next time.
Did you buy CPO for your Acura?

There is alot to be said for no upkeep.
I have 155K miles on my 2004 Honda Accord and not a single instance of needing to be in the shop [knock on wood].
With the limited timeoff policy of my employer, I can't see having to be at the dealership for fixes even if the repair was covered by a warranty.
No upkeep? Do you change your oil? Filters? Other scheduled maintenance? Have you read the maintenance schedule in your owner's manual? Do you use your brakes and tires? :confused
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linuxuser
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by linuxuser »

aja8888 wrote:
linuxuser wrote:
topper1296 wrote:
touchdowntodd wrote:i would never drive a german car because of upkeep
This is exactly why I decided against BMW when I bought my last car 7 years ago. I purchased a used Acura and have been very happy with it.
I have been thinking about getting an Acura the next time.
Did you buy CPO for your Acura?

There is alot to be said for no upkeep.
I have 155K miles on my 2004 Honda Accord and not a single instance of needing to be in the shop [knock on wood].
With the limited timeoff policy of my employer, I can't see having to be at the dealership for fixes even if the repair was covered by a warranty.
No upkeep? Do you change your oil? Filters? Other scheduled maintenance? Have you read the maintenance schedule in your owner's manual? Do you use your brakes and tires? :confused
To me upkeep is unexpected repairs.
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linuxuser
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by linuxuser »

jda wrote:
multivoiced wrote:
linuxuser wrote:I have been thinking about getting an Acura the next time.
It is very nice to see a brand-new Acura (the ILX) available for $26,000 -- nearly the same price as a new Honda Civic Natural Gas. I haven't seen the ILX in person yet, but it looks like a much better deal than an overpriced 3-Series BMW.

Spending 26k for a dressed up Civic is not overpaying? lol
Stop comparing a front wheel drive Japanese car to a rear wheel drive German car because there is really no comparison as far as driving dynamic is concerned.
And where exactly does one get to experience true driving dynamic in rush hour traffic where one is crawling along at 20 mph? :shock:

Interestingly enough, much of my commute is highway driving, so the BMW might work for me except for the fact of snow and ice in the winter.
Tabulator
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by Tabulator »

linuxuser wrote:Interestingly enough, much of my commute is highway driving, so the BMW might work for me except for the fact of snow and ice in the winter.
WRX, maybe?
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by mike143 »

linuxuser wrote:Interestingly enough, much of my commute is highway driving, so the BMW might work for me except for the fact of snow and ice in the winter.
I would never own a vehicle that have enjoyable potential because it would be at the demise of others. If you want to enjoy a vehicle, then you belong on a "race track" with others that have the same risk adversity. On the open streets you don't need more than 100hp and and auto transmission.
Nothing is free, someone pays...You can't spend your way to financial freedom.
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interplanetjanet
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by interplanetjanet »

mike143 wrote:I would never own a vehicle that have enjoyable potential because it would be at the demise of others. If you want to enjoy a vehicle, then you belong on a "race track" with others that have the same risk adversity. On the open streets you don't need more than 100hp and and auto transmission.
I've spoken in the past on the concepts of passive and active safety. Passive safety is more easily understood and appreciated by many, it includes such wonderful things as airbags, seatbelts and crumple zones. Active safety can be tremendously important as well, though, and includes braking, handling, driver training and many other factors. Nimbleness in a car is a positive attribute. From my own experience watching other drivers on the road, I feel safe saying that someone can drive like an idiot in any sort of vehicle.

Enjoyment of driving isn't just limited to power and agility, though - some enjoy luxurious touches, some simply enjoy a vehicle that is designed and put together well. My old Acura Legend wouldn't win many contests against even modern economy cars for power and handling (though it did amazingly well for its time) but there was so much thought put into every part of it that it couldn't help but put a smile on my face. Ergonomics, engineering, even little intelligent touches about when to beep to remind you that a key was put in or not - they just Did It Right. As someone who does engineering and design work for a living, I can appreciate that.

-janet
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magellan
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by magellan »

mike143 wrote:On the open streets you don't need more than 100hp and and auto transmission.
You must live somewhere without any hills. Where I live, which is a little hilly but not even the mountains, a car with 100hp is borderline dangerous because it can't accelerate to traffic speed fast enough, especially on uphill highway entrance ramps.

Jim
clearwater
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by clearwater »

If you want a BMW, get it.

Yes, you can get a Honda or Toyota, which may last a nice long time. New Fords are very well built and may give you the same experience. And they will all drive like you expect.

BMW possesses handling characteristics that only Porsche seems to share. On handling, most BMWs will drive like you're holding the tie rods in your hands. If you're any type of enthusiast, the driving experience will spoil you, and you won't go back to other brands. (E.g. if you get a thrill out of a properly executed heel and toe downshift at the right time, you'll find the dynamics of a BMW leaving you with constant grins.)

There's nothing wrong with economy brand vehicles, but it's like eating off the dollar menu at McDonalds. It's good enough, and a heckuva deal. But do you really want that kind of experience every day?

And on the reliability side, the stories of expensive repairs and so on are almost urban legends. Find a reliable independent mechanic who specializes in BMWs and you'll be in fine shape for maintenance.

I have a Nissan with 210,000 miles which failed (needs a ring job), which drove like a tin can; it's now heading to the recycler... I would not buy another vehicle like that.... it was built cheap and I was regularly replacing parts.

Compare to my 1995 BMW with 190,000 miles which drives like new, still handles great, I drive every day, and expect to last another 10 years at least -- that will be a 30 year car... no matter how you slice it even though I bought it new that's one great deal. And the overall cost of ownership has so far been about $15k less than the Nissan which I never enjoyed as much.

In addition to handling, German cars are built *strong* and to last. The philosophy of engineering is different in a country where vehicles are expected to drive at high speeds on public roads, and where the safety standards are very high. If you do your own maintenance, you'll appreciate how easy it is to work on these vehicles; someone seems to have thought through the process from the beginning, compared to Japanese vehicles where there is always something seemingly in the way (it was not uncommon to need to remove multiple hoses to get at one simple thing on the Nissan; BMW doesn't do that.)

If you just want reliability, you can even look at old Mercedes W124 wagons. They have motors which can easily go 500,000 miles.

It sounds like you've already made your decision, so don't second guess your choice of manufacturer. I think you'll be surprised at how well the BMW will treat you. Maintain it regularly, and there is no need to sell it in four years. Mine is coming up on 20 years old and my repair costs have been LESS than my Nissan which is destined for the scrap yard.

I understand that Toyotas have a strong following on Bogleheads, but get what you want. Life is too short to miss experiences, particularly ones that are not outlandish in price (an extra $10k for a vehicle which can last 20 years seems like a fine expense to me, as long as you keep the car). Cars are tools like anything else; if you want the BMW driving experience, don't let anyone tell you how to spend your money. (For comparison to "car shopping", search for the now infamous $5000 watch thread.)
Last edited by clearwater on Sun Oct 07, 2012 10:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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aja8888
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by aja8888 »

mike143 wrote:
linuxuser wrote:Interestingly enough, much of my commute is highway driving, so the BMW might work for me except for the fact of snow and ice in the winter.
I would never own a vehicle that have enjoyable potential because it would be at the demise of others. If you want to enjoy a vehicle, then you belong on a "race track" with others that have the same risk adversity. On the open streets you don't need more than 100hp and and auto transmission.
"Race track" cars are generally designed for that purpose and are not street worthy (or probably legal). Even many of the plain vanilla, faceless cars being produced these days are 4 cylinder turbo charged vehicles with some sporty attributes. I have a 90 HP turbocharged, diesel powered Jetta which is very economical (40+ MPG), has a pretty decent suspension, has quite a a bit of torque (much more important than horsepower), and is quite fun to drive. It also has eight airbags and exceptional brakes.

Janet's comments are right on as safety is more than just poking along in the right lane at 15 MPH below the speed limit.
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by Elysium »

The 335 is a terrible car to *own*, I am speaking from my experience, others may disagree.

It is blast to drive of course, but cost can be a killer, besides you won't get to use half of what it is designed for.

This puppy has got some serious machinery such as duel fuel pumps and twin turbos. When these things fail, and fail they will eventually, they cost a wad of cash to repair. I had the car under warranty and in that period itself the fuel injectors failed, all six of them needed to be replaced. Imagine one or both of the turbos failing, if you don't have the warranty heavens help you. Unless you have set aside enough cash to throw on this.

This is a pure performance car, parts are designed to fail, so the most important thing the engine won't fail. This car is designed for German roads, where I live in crowded east coast, this car cannot be maximized for what it is intended to do. Why own a performance car, when you really can't use even 50% of its capacity without getting a ticket, or causing an accident.
TRC
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Re: Buying a Certified Pre-Owned BMW

Post by TRC »

I bought a 2008 335xi new. Sold it after 2 years. Way too many issues. Everything was covered by warranty, but it was a hassle to keep bringing it into the shop. I now own an Acura TL SH AWD. Runs like a champ.
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