My New Car Buying Tips

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Topic Author
denovo
Posts: 4739
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

Here's an update, I just recently used this strategy about a week ago to purchase a vehicle for an acquaintance. Here are the exact details for those interested. Rumors of the demise of this strategy have been greatly exaggerated.

Vehicle: Subaru Forrester Premium Trim
Location: Greater Los Angeles Area (Quotes Requested from Ventura, Los Angeles, Orange, and Riverside County dealers)
MSRP at 8 locations for the requested vehicle with the same option package and color combo: $31,148
Number of dealers who responded with a quote: 7 out of 8
TrueCar discount from dealers in the area $400-1,200 off MSRP ( see below)
Final Denovo price: $31,600 OTD, or $3,000 off sticker

Time Estimate: Total two hours. Took about 30-35 minutes to go through the inventory of about 11 dealers to find the matching vehicle (trim/color/option package) and request quotes. Generated google excel sheet with the vin number + dealer + price from each dealer to track. About a few minutes every hour or two to periodically check e-mails over 3 days and finally get the best price, another 90 mins. Got the best deal in round two that no other dealer could match. No telephone calls, e-mail only communication. Also see this post, it looks as if many dealers are doing bait and switch on the truecar quotes, which aren't very good anyway.

viewtopic.php?p=5997096#p5997096
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
devopscoder
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:35 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by devopscoder »

denovo wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pm Here's an update, I just recently used this strategy about a week ago to purchase a vehicle for an acquaintance.
That’s awesome work! I will have to go through the entire thread again and read all of the posts carefully. I do have a couple questions.

The dealer that gave the best quote, how far is it from your friend?

Is there a way to figure out who are the high volume dealers in an area?

Earlier in the thread, there’s a reference to a Fat Wallet post similar to the one you made. I was able to find it here since the forums no longer exist.
Tingting1013
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Tingting1013 »

denovo wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pm Here's an update, I just recently used this strategy about a week ago to purchase a vehicle for an acquaintance. Here are the exact details for those interested. Rumors of the demise of this strategy have been greatly exaggerated.

Vehicle: Subaru Forrester Premium Trim
Location: Greater Los Angeles Area (Quotes Requested from Ventura, Los Angeles, Orange, and Riverside County dealers)
MSRP at 8 locations for the requested vehicle with the same option package and color combo: $31,148
Number of dealers who responded with a quote: 7 out of 8
TrueCar discount from dealers in the area $400-1,200 off MSRP ( see below)
Final Denovo price: $31,600 OTD, or $3,000 off sticker

Time Estimate: Total two hours. Took about 30-35 minutes to go through the inventory of about 11 dealers to find the matching vehicle (trim/color/option package) and request quotes. Generated google excel sheet with the vin number + dealer + price from each dealer to track. About a few minutes every hour or two to periodically check e-mails over 3 days and finally get the best price, another 90 mins. Got the best deal in round two that no other dealer could match. No telephone calls, e-mail only communication. Also see this post, it looks as if many dealers are doing bait and switch on the truecar quotes, which aren't very good anyway.

viewtopic.php?p=5997096#p5997096
Curious how much you saved off the first round pricing. No one actually pays sticker so that’s not a good comparison point.

I recently negotiated a $70k Volvo and ended up with a car $3k below my neighborhood dealer’s initial quote.
protagonist
Posts: 7171
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 2010 12:47 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by protagonist »

denovo wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:15 pm I've done this a couple of times, and wonder what you guys think. I think I have got the best deal using this process.

Follow-up here. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=124638&start=150#p3061421



05/10/ 2021 Follow-up here. viewtopic.php?f=11&t=124638&p=5998079#p5998079

First, before you negotiate you need to decide on a car, and when I mean decide, I mean make model, options and even the color and interior. You may have to flexible on color , but there's usually no difference on price for color. That means test-drive it and then leave the dealership without leaving your number, e-mail , or any contact info. The only way to get the very best deal is to deal with the internet sales department for two simple reasons. A. You can't shop around multiple dealers simultaneously when you are stuck in a showroom. B. They are always slow to respond to get "approval" from their manager for a price request because they are hoping you will get tired out and just give up. Negotiating via e-mail over a couple of days destroys their advantages.

The Negotiating Process
1. Search the dealer inventories online for the exact car you are looking for. They usually give you the VIN Number, and you can usually find the same car at 4-5 different dealerships within a 60 mile radius if you live in a decent sized metro area, if you are not asking for something really unique like a pink Aston Martin. Ask for price requests from those 5 departments through an online questionnaire. DO NOT PUT down a phone number, or if you have to, a fake one, only contact information you leave is an e-mail address, no residential or mailing address.

2. You'll get an initial contact from someone within 24 hours via e-mail once the phone line doesn't work which is the first thing they'll try. Make it clear that you will negotiate over e-mail only, are soliciting multiple dealers for the best price, and want the quotes to be the out-the-door-price which means after taxes and fees. They will need your zip code to calculate taxes so they give them that. Do not let them talk to you about financing or if you have a trade-in. Tell them you are negotiating on the price of the car only and that those things won't be discussed until you find the dealer with the best price. Do not let them lure you into a phone call or insist you come in and talk to them. Eventually, they will all let you contact them via e-mail if you insist.

3. After you get the initial prices, and insist this is an out the door price after taxes and fees, take the lowest offer and take it to Dealer #2. So this doesn't take too long, tell them you will only go with them if they beat the price of Dealer #1 by at least $300.00. Insist, no matching will be accepted. They key thing about negotiating is for you to create the rules and be firm about it. Don't sound desperate, give them at least 24 hours to respond, but usually they will respond within a few hours. If they beat the price from Dealer #1 (which on the first round they usually will, since everyone starts with a high-ball offer) take that offer to Dealer #3, and keep on rinsing till you get the price. In later stages, you may want to say they can beat the price by only going down $200.00. You know you have the best offer when other dealers back out of the deal and refuse to counter. Not always true, but usually the best deal will end up being from a high-volume dealer in your area that can take a low margin. Even though the manufacturer sells the cars to the dealers for the same price, manufacturers will give rebates to dealers who sell higher volumes.

4. When you have the best offer, keep in your hip pocket the closest offer which will probably be within $200.00 A few dishonest dealers may try to give you an excuse when you get there to buy a car that they can't do that offer anymore, or that the car is gone, but that should be rare since by now you have established yourself as a no nonsense customer. Be prepared to walk out if the offer is even $10 more than what was initially quoted, they will either back down or you go to the second dealer. This will only happen rarely.

5. FINANCING- If you are not paying cash for your car, your best pathaway is to finance through one of the national banks or credit unions, they will offer rates as good as the dealer and you are not tied to one specific dealership as the bank will give you a check you can give to any dealer. Dealers usually just take bank loans and add a markup so only focus on negotiating the price of the car with the dealer. The Finance Department of the car dealership is a pure profit center.

6.TRADE-IN , You will never get the best deal from the dealer. Either sell it private party or to a company like autodirect. This is just another profit center for the dealers.

7. Refuse all markup services like lo-jack, extended warranty, etc. These are all rip-offs that usually some people will cave into when they are tired after sitting in a showroom all day. None of them are good deals.

General Advice
*Be realistic on how much of a discount you can get below sticker price. Even with this strategy, there are certain factors out of your control. If a car is really popular, and selling like hotcakes this strategy will only bring the price down a little bit. Certain manufacturers have rebates on certain cars which will bring the price down. Your best deals usually come in Aug-October when they are bringing in the next year's model and the dealer wants to get rid of the prior year stock, especially if the design is being changed.
*Car negotiating isn't about making friends. There's a less of a chance of this happening since you are going to be dealing with people over e-mail until the end, but the dealer sees this as a pure business transaction and so should you. Dealers are pros about trying to make a fake personal connection, so you feel bad about negotiating, don't fall for it. When you walk in with the best deal, they are not going to greet you with roses since you bought the car for the bare minimum they would sell it.
I agree with all that.
I used essentially this method when I bought my last car (late 2017) and I got a great deal.
I would add:
1. The dealer I purchased from tried a last minute ploy while signing the papers of adding a fee if I didn't take the financing. The key was that the financing could be paid off penalty-free at any time. So I took the financing and paid it off within days after buying the car....my total interest charge was less than $10. No big deal.
2. He also tried hitting me up last minute for floor mats. I gave in on that one....it was a very small fee that he would not back down on and the overall deal was still considerably better than any other dealer offered. Just a heads-up that it could happen to you.
3. Make sure you create a separate email address for this purpose or you will be getting dozens of emails from dealers for years to come.
4. Shop at the end of the month if you can, when the dealerships are trying to make quotas to get their bonus.
hudson
Posts: 4150
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

protagonist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 9:12 am I would add:
1. The dealer I purchased from tried a last minute ploy while signing the papers of adding a fee if I didn't take the financing. The key was that the financing could be paid off penalty-free at any time. So I took the financing and paid it off within days after buying the car....my total interest charge was less than $10. No big deal.
2. He also tried hitting me up last minute for floor mats. I gave in on that one....it was a very small fee that he would not back down on and the overall deal was still considerably better than any other dealer offered. Just a heads-up that it could happen to you.
3. Make sure you create a separate email address for this purpose or you will be getting dozens of emails from dealers for years to come.
4. Shop at the end of the month if you can, when the dealerships are trying to make quotas to get their bonus.
Dealer last minute tricks: Before I drive to the dealer, I ask the salesperson for some kind of document with the itemized deal including the out the door price. I also ask if the vehicle is on the lot and ready to go. I ask that the salesperson inspect my new vehicle just like it was theirs and let me know if it's ready for pickup. I also humbly request that there be NO talk about service contracts or the like. I think those are all reasonable requests. If those requests were not granted, I would likely change horses.

I have always used my regular email and regular cell number during my last 4 buys. I've found that once a dealer knows that I've made a purchase, they leave me alone. If they didn't, it's easy to block them. I don't sweat the birthday emails that I get from two dealers.

Shop at the end the month: I agree...when possible. I like to start the process on Tuesdays or Wednesdays when business is slow and the salesperson has time for me.

I primarily use the phone to negotiate; I've gotten quicker and better responses that way. I want the salesperson to believe that I'm a serious buyer who might just make a decision today or tomorrow(because it's true). I've found that sales managers get involved when there's a serious inquiry. I think that I get put on some kind of priority list because after the first call, I'm never left waiting. I try to build a working relationship with a salesperson and their backup....in case the salesperson isn't going to be there. I like to go from first phone call to purchase in 3 days.
Topic Author
denovo
Posts: 4739
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

devopscoder wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:21 am
denovo wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pm Here's an update, I just recently used this strategy about a week ago to purchase a vehicle for an acquaintance.
That’s awesome work! I will have to go through the entire thread again and read all of the posts carefully. I do have a couple questions.

The dealer that gave the best quote, how far is it from your friend?

Is there a way to figure out who are the high volume dealers in an area?

Earlier in the thread, there’s a reference to a Fat Wallet post similar to the one you made. I was able to find it here since the forums no longer exist.
20 miles. Generally larger inventory= larger volume dealers, which you can figure based on what is available on their site. No guarantee that the highest volume dealer gives the best price, wasn't the case on the Subaru. The highest volume dealers weren't interested in playing ball, gave me the worst prices so that's why I rec getting OTD quotes from as many as 10-15 dealers that have what matches your specs.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Topic Author
denovo
Posts: 4739
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

Tingting1013 wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 8:42 am
denovo wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pm Here's an update, I just recently used this strategy about a week ago to purchase a vehicle for an acquaintance. Here are the exact details for those interested. Rumors of the demise of this strategy have been greatly exaggerated.

Vehicle: Subaru Forrester Premium Trim
Location: Greater Los Angeles Area (Quotes Requested from Ventura, Los Angeles, Orange, and Riverside County dealers)
MSRP at 8 locations for the requested vehicle with the same option package and color combo: $31,148
Number of dealers who responded with a quote: 7 out of 8
TrueCar discount from dealers in the area $400-1,200 off MSRP ( see below)
Final Denovo price: $31,600 OTD, or $3,000 off sticker

Time Estimate: Total two hours. Took about 30-35 minutes to go through the inventory of about 11 dealers to find the matching vehicle (trim/color/option package) and request quotes. Generated google excel sheet with the vin number + dealer + price from each dealer to track. About a few minutes every hour or two to periodically check e-mails over 3 days and finally get the best price, another 90 mins. Got the best deal in round two that no other dealer could match. No telephone calls, e-mail only communication. Also see this post, it looks as if many dealers are doing bait and switch on the truecar quotes, which aren't very good anyway.

viewtopic.php?p=5997096#p5997096

Curious how much you saved off the first round pricing. No one actually pays sticker so that’s not a good comparison point.

I recently negotiated a $70k Volvo and ended up with a car $3k below my neighborhood dealer’s initial quote.
I used the TruePrice quotes as a baseline since that is the lazy way to buy a car, (400-1,200 minus sticker) ;very wide variation in first round (-400 to $2,400) off sticker). Final price was $3,000 off sticker. There was a very limited inventory for this car, I think I would have gotten a better deal pre-COVID 19.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
ballons
Posts: 782
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by ballons »

hudson wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 10:38 am
protagonist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 9:12 am I would add:
1. The dealer I purchased from tried a last minute ploy while signing the papers of adding a fee if I didn't take the financing. The key was that the financing could be paid off penalty-free at any time. So I took the financing and paid it off within days after buying the car....my total interest charge was less than $10. No big deal.
2. He also tried hitting me up last minute for floor mats. I gave in on that one....it was a very small fee that he would not back down on and the overall deal was still considerably better than any other dealer offered. Just a heads-up that it could happen to you.
3. Make sure you create a separate email address for this purpose or you will be getting dozens of emails from dealers for years to come.
4. Shop at the end of the month if you can, when the dealerships are trying to make quotas to get their bonus.
Dealer last minute tricks: Before I drive to the dealer, I ask the salesperson for some kind of document with the itemized deal including the out the door price. I also ask if the vehicle is on the lot and ready to go. I ask that the salesperson inspect my new vehicle just like it was theirs and let me know if it's ready for pickup. I also humbly request that there be NO talk about service contracts or the like. I think those are all reasonable requests. If those requests were not granted, I would likely change horses.

I have always used my regular email and regular cell number during my last 4 buys. I've found that once a dealer knows that I've made a purchase, they leave me alone. If they didn't, it's easy to block them. I don't sweat the birthday emails that I get from two dealers.

Shop at the end the month: I agree...when possible. I like to start the process on Tuesdays or Wednesdays when business is slow and the salesperson has time for me.

I primarily use the phone to negotiate; I've gotten quicker and better responses that way. I want the salesperson to believe that I'm a serious buyer who might just make a decision today or tomorrow(because it's true). I've found that sales managers get involved when there's a serious inquiry. I think that I get put on some kind of priority list because after the first call, I'm never left waiting. I try to build a working relationship with a salesperson and their backup....in case the salesperson isn't going to be there. I like to go from first phone call to purchase in 3 days.
Why aren't people signing a bill of sale for the OTD price? If the dealer and the deal is legit, they won't have any issue doing this. It seems crazy to show up and say, "Well Bob promised me this." You shouldn't be getting any sales pitches for anything. You should have a copy of the monroney/window sticker so you know exactly what is included. You should walk in and be signing a pile of pre-printed docs which you make sure matches.
hudson
Posts: 4150
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

ballons wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:01 pm
hudson wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 10:38 am
protagonist wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 9:12 am I would add:
1. The dealer I purchased from tried a last minute ploy while signing the papers of adding a fee if I didn't take the financing. The key was that the financing could be paid off penalty-free at any time. So I took the financing and paid it off within days after buying the car....my total interest charge was less than $10. No big deal.
2. He also tried hitting me up last minute for floor mats. I gave in on that one....it was a very small fee that he would not back down on and the overall deal was still considerably better than any other dealer offered. Just a heads-up that it could happen to you.
3. Make sure you create a separate email address for this purpose or you will be getting dozens of emails from dealers for years to come.
4. Shop at the end of the month if you can, when the dealerships are trying to make quotas to get their bonus.
Dealer last minute tricks: Before I drive to the dealer, I ask the salesperson for some kind of document with the itemized deal including the out the door price. I also ask if the vehicle is on the lot and ready to go. I ask that the salesperson inspect my new vehicle just like it was theirs and let me know if it's ready for pickup. I also humbly request that there be NO talk about service contracts or the like. I think those are all reasonable requests. If those requests were not granted, I would likely change horses.

I have always used my regular email and regular cell number during my last 4 buys. I've found that once a dealer knows that I've made a purchase, they leave me alone. If they didn't, it's easy to block them. I don't sweat the birthday emails that I get from two dealers.

Shop at the end the month: I agree...when possible. I like to start the process on Tuesdays or Wednesdays when business is slow and the salesperson has time for me.

I primarily use the phone to negotiate; I've gotten quicker and better responses that way. I want the salesperson to believe that I'm a serious buyer who might just make a decision today or tomorrow(because it's true). I've found that sales managers get involved when there's a serious inquiry. I think that I get put on some kind of priority list because after the first call, I'm never left waiting. I try to build a working relationship with a salesperson and their backup....in case the salesperson isn't going to be there. I like to go from first phone call to purchase in 3 days.
Why aren't people signing a bill of sale for the OTD price? If the dealer and the deal is legit, they won't have any issue doing this. It seems crazy to show up and say, "Well Bob promised me this." You shouldn't be getting any sales pitches for anything. You should have a copy of the monroney/window sticker so you know exactly what is included. You should walk in and be signing a pile of pre-printed docs which you make sure matches.
Balloons,

I agree; I would have heartburn if someone tried to add something to the OTD price. Some dealers think that the extended service contracts are fair game. For my next purchase in 2028 :), I plan to request that there be no service contract sales pitches BEFORE I drive to the dealership.

I usually buy Toyotas. I've found that once they make a deal they want to keep you happy because the Toyota Corporate Survey is important to the dealers. Since they want a good report, I've been treated very well once I've put down a deposit....except for one dealer that wore me out pitching a service contract. The last document that I got before driving was titled a "Sales Order." It included the VIN along with the OTD price. I think that I always had information from the Monroney Sticker during the bidding process.
ballons
Posts: 782
Joined: Sun Aug 18, 2019 3:05 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by ballons »

hudson wrote: Tue May 11, 2021 3:16 pm Balloons,

I agree; I would have heartburn if someone tried to add something to the OTD price. Some dealers think that the extended service contracts are fair game. For my next purchase in 2028 :), I plan to request that there be no service contract sales pitches BEFORE I drive to the dealership.

I usually buy Toyotas. I've found that once they make a deal they want to keep you happy because the Toyota Corporate Survey is important to the dealers. Since they want a good report, I've been treated very well once I've put down a deposit....except for one dealer that wore me out pitching a service contract. The last document that I got before driving was titled a "Sales Order." It included the VIN along with the OTD price. I think that I always had information from the Monroney Sticker during the bidding process.
That should be the first document you get before you even get to the dealer.

1. OTD price and deposit amount finalized.
2. You get emailed an itemized "Sales order"/Bill of sale finalizing everything and it shows deposits/taxes/options + dealer sends a copy of window sticker
3. Sign, return, and pay deposit.
4. Drive to dealer and make sure documents match exactly.

There should be zero surprises about fees, floor mats, nor warranties.
d0gerz
Posts: 299
Joined: Thu Apr 10, 2014 9:45 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by d0gerz »

denovo wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pmMSRP at 8 locations for the requested vehicle with the same option package and color combo: $31,148
Final Denovo price: $31,600 OTD, or $3,000 off sticker
Is the MSRP a typo? How can final price be higher than MSRP and still be $3,000 off sticker?
devopscoder
Posts: 65
Joined: Tue Apr 20, 2021 9:35 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by devopscoder »

denovo wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:15 pm

3. After you get the initial prices, and insist this is an out the door price after taxes and fees, take the lowest offer and take it to Dealer #2.
I'm currently looking to get a Honda CRV Hybrid Touring that has a MSRP of $37,920 with a doc fee of $479. One quote I got is for $34,320, $3600 below MSRP.

One dealer wants to get a copy of the offer. Do you send it to them as-is? Or do you edit it slightly to take our the dealer name and some other identifying info.
KFBR392
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Aug 08, 2019 6:32 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by KFBR392 »

d0gerz wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:54 am
denovo wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pmMSRP at 8 locations for the requested vehicle with the same option package and color combo: $31,148
Final Denovo price: $31,600 OTD, or $3,000 off sticker
Is the MSRP a typo? How can final price be higher than MSRP and still be $3,000 off sticker?
If there were rebates or incentives applied, CA sales tax is calculated off of the sale price before those are applied. Depending where you live, (sales tax for me is 10.25%) that can be a hefty difference.
hudson
Posts: 4150
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2007 9:15 am

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

devopscoder wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:17 pm
denovo wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:15 pm

3. After you get the initial prices, and insist this is an out the door price after taxes and fees, take the lowest offer and take it to Dealer #2.
I'm currently looking to get a Honda CRV Hybrid Touring that has a MSRP of $37,920 with a doc fee of $479. One quote I got is for $34,320, $3600 below MSRP.

One dealer wants to get a copy of the offer. Do you send it to them as-is? Or do you edit it slightly to take our the dealer name and some other identifying info.
I don't share that kind of information with dealers. On my second round of bidding, after establishing that I'm a serious buyer, by phone, I tell them the best price, and I expect them to trust me. I'm sure that they know all about pricing for their vehicles. If they won't give me an OTD price, I humbly and politely thank them and move on. They would have my contact information in case they change their minds and want to submit an OTD bid.
Tingting1013
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Tingting1013 »

hudson wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:26 pm
devopscoder wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:17 pm
denovo wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:15 pm

3. After you get the initial prices, and insist this is an out the door price after taxes and fees, take the lowest offer and take it to Dealer #2.
I'm currently looking to get a Honda CRV Hybrid Touring that has a MSRP of $37,920 with a doc fee of $479. One quote I got is for $34,320, $3600 below MSRP.

One dealer wants to get a copy of the offer. Do you send it to them as-is? Or do you edit it slightly to take our the dealer name and some other identifying info.
I don't share that kind of information with dealers. On my second round of bidding, after establishing that I'm a serious buyer, by phone, I tell them the best price, and I expect them to trust me. I'm sure that they know all about pricing for their vehicles. If they won't give me an OTD price, I humbly and politely thank them and move on. They would have my contact information in case they change their minds and want to submit an OTD bid.
If you’re not sharing the written offers then you’re not getting the best price.
Topic Author
denovo
Posts: 4739
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

d0gerz wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:54 am
denovo wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pmMSRP at 8 locations for the requested vehicle with the same option package and color combo: $31,148
Final Denovo price: $31,600 OTD, or $3,000 off sticker
Is the MSRP a typo? How can final price be higher than MSRP and still be $3,000 off sticker?
Have you purchased a new vehicle before? MSRP doesn't include sales tax or license fees. And in LA, sales tax is 9.5 percent
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Topic Author
denovo
Posts: 4739
Joined: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:04 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

devopscoder wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:17 pm
denovo wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:15 pm

3. After you get the initial prices, and insist this is an out the door price after taxes and fees, take the lowest offer and take it to Dealer #2.
I'm currently looking to get a Honda CRV Hybrid Touring that has a MSRP of $37,920 with a doc fee of $479. One quote I got is for $34,320, $3600 below MSRP.

One dealer wants to get a copy of the offer. Do you send it to them as-is? Or do you edit it slightly to take our the dealer name and some other identifying info.

Nyet. Tell them you can only provide the number, no dealer name or Vin. Want to avoid collusion.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
Tingting1013
Posts: 1594
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2020 5:44 pm

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Tingting1013 »

denovo wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:20 pm
devopscoder wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 1:17 pm
denovo wrote: Sun Oct 13, 2013 1:15 pm

3. After you get the initial prices, and insist this is an out the door price after taxes and fees, take the lowest offer and take it to Dealer #2.
I'm currently looking to get a Honda CRV Hybrid Touring that has a MSRP of $37,920 with a doc fee of $479. One quote I got is for $34,320, $3600 below MSRP.

One dealer wants to get a copy of the offer. Do you send it to them as-is? Or do you edit it slightly to take our the dealer name and some other identifying info.

Nyet. Tell them you can only provide the number, no dealer name or Vin. Want to avoid collusion.
Pretty sure if the dealers wanted to collude they are perfectly capable of doing so themselves without any customer input.
d0gerz
Posts: 299
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by d0gerz »

denovo wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 2:19 pm
d0gerz wrote: Wed May 12, 2021 9:54 am
denovo wrote: Mon May 10, 2021 1:26 pmMSRP at 8 locations for the requested vehicle with the same option package and color combo: $31,148
Final Denovo price: $31,600 OTD, or $3,000 off sticker
Is the MSRP a typo? How can final price be higher than MSRP and still be $3,000 off sticker?
Have you purchased a new vehicle before? MSRP doesn't include sales tax or license fees. And in LA, sales tax is 9.5 percent
I have not, no. I live vicariously through others' success on this thread. :mrgreen: But thanks, I get it now. You paid some price below MSRP such that price x 1.095 + license fees etc. came out slightly higher than the MSRP, which doesn't include taxes and fees.
nano
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by nano »

Thanks guys.

Used this method to purchase a 2021 Honda HRV LX.

24,290 MSRP
~23,000 OTD

(Tax 5%, Other fees about $300)

Note: The OTD is adjusted because I also traded in. Trade in value was reasonable. But got about 8-9% off MSRP which was good based on the other dealers.
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denovo
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

nano wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:21 pm Thanks guys.

Used this method to purchase a 2021 Honda HRV LX.

24,290 MSRP
~23,000 OTD

(Tax 5%, Other fees about $300)

Note: The OTD is adjusted because I also traded in. Trade in value was reasonable. But got about 8-9% off MSRP which was good based on the other dealers.
You get the denovo seal of approval with one demerit. I expect you would have gotten a better deal selling the used car separately in the private market or to CarMax.
"Don't trust everything you read on the Internet"- Abraham Lincoln
nano
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by nano »

denovo wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:06 pmYou get the denovo seal of approval with one demerit. I expect you would have gotten a better deal selling the used car separately in the private market or to CarMax.
True. In my case, my trade in was in the 5-6k range so the upside of going private sale wasn't that much. I considered the Carmax or others but I'd need to travel at least 90 minutes to do so. In the end, I maybe could have saved $1k tops.
placeholder
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by placeholder »

In some states the trade in reduces the overall price for sales tax so that needs to be factored in.
saagar_is_cool
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by saagar_is_cool »

How do you guys get the email addresses of the dealerships. I am looking for Acura RDX and I see Contact Us link which has a contact us form. I do not see any email addresses under Contact Us section.
Topic Author
denovo
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

saagar_is_cool wrote: Tue Jun 22, 2021 10:25 pm How do you guys get the email addresses of the dealerships. I am looking for Acura RDX and I see Contact Us link which has a contact us form. I do not see any email addresses under Contact Us section.
You dont need a dealer email address . Once you've found the car on their inventory you want, you fill out the contact us form for that car
Last edited by denovo on Wed Jun 23, 2021 1:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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othermike27
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Location: Chicago Metro

Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by othermike27 »

nano wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:41 pm
denovo wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:06 pmYou get the denovo seal of approval with one demerit. I expect you would have gotten a better deal selling the used car separately in the private market or to CarMax.
True. In my case, my trade in was in the 5-6k range so the upside of going private sale wasn't that much. I considered the Carmax or others but I'd need to travel at least 90 minutes to do so. In the end, I maybe could have saved $1k tops.
Maybe more than $1K...

Bought DW's 2019 Honda Pilot using the Bragg/denovo method. Concurrent with the start of round 1 contacts, I got a Carmax offer of $7K to buy her 2010 Acura RDX. When we went to pick up the Honda (at the pre-agreed OTD price with no trade-in), I mentioned that we planned to sell the RDX and the sales person asked to have the used car manager take a look. They offered $9,500. OK, I can do that.

Yes, that's unusual, but I have sold cars to dealers three times when their offer was better. Point is, other people's experiences are for them in their market at a particular time. Your market and timing may give you a better deal. Or a worse deal. You never know until you start down the path.
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denovo
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by denovo »

othermike27 wrote: Wed Jun 23, 2021 5:52 am
nano wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:41 pm
denovo wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:06 pmYou get the denovo seal of approval with one demerit. I expect you would have gotten a better deal selling the used car separately in the private market or to CarMax.
True. In my case, my trade in was in the 5-6k range so the upside of going private sale wasn't that much. I considered the Carmax or others but I'd need to travel at least 90 minutes to do so. In the end, I maybe could have saved $1k tops.
Maybe more than $1K...

Bought DW's 2019 Honda Pilot using the Bragg/denovo method. Concurrent with the start of round 1 contacts, I got a Carmax offer of $7K to buy her 2010 Acura RDX. When we went to pick up the Honda (at the pre-agreed OTD price with no trade-in), I mentioned that we planned to sell the RDX and the sales person asked to have the used car manager take a look. They offered $9,500. OK, I can do that.

Yes, that's unusual, but I have sold cars to dealers three times when their offer was better. Point is, other people's experiences are for them in their market at a particular time. Your market and timing may give you a better deal. Or a worse deal. You never know until you start down the path.
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crystalbank
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by crystalbank »

What to do when dealers refuse to give you an out the door price over email? Some dealers don't want to play ball saying that they can't give a final price without "finance" managers approval even when I'm paying cash.
devopscoder
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by devopscoder »

crystalbank wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:43 pm What to do when dealers refuse to give you an out the door price over email? Some dealers don't want to play ball saying that they can't give a final price without "finance" managers approval even when I'm paying cash.
Move on to the next one. I found that about 80-90% of the dealers gave OOTD price. It helps to have this because some dealers might play games. In one case, a dealer gave me a good deal but it's because they left out the destination charge which other dealers included.
Old Guy
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Old Guy »

Great but very unlikely to work with certain models like the Ford Mustang Mach E. Your lucky if you get out the door at the MSRP.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by placeholder »

"Sorry we couldn't do business."
livesoft
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by livesoft »

crystalbank wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:43 pm What to do when dealers refuse to give you an out the door price over email? Some dealers don't want to play ball saying that they can't give a final price without "finance" managers approval even when I'm paying cash.
In that case, tell the dealer employee to get the "finance" manager approval first and then e-mail you.
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hudson
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

crystalbank wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:43 pm What to do when dealers refuse to give you an out the door price over email? Some dealers don't want to play ball saying that they can't give a final price without "finance" managers approval even when I'm paying cash.
I prefer to first check inventory to be sure they have what I want in stock.
I call and say…
I’m a serious buyer who wants to make a purchase today or tomorrow.
I want a specific vehicle that is on your lot.
I request an out the door price.
If they don’t play, I move to the next dealer.

Since inventory levels are very low, the above may not work as it appears to be a sellers market.
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crystalbank
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by crystalbank »

hudson wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:08 pm
crystalbank wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:43 pm What to do when dealers refuse to give you an out the door price over email? Some dealers don't want to play ball saying that they can't give a final price without "finance" managers approval even when I'm paying cash.
I prefer to first check inventory to be sure they have what I want in stock.
I call and say…
I’m a serious buyer who wants to make a purchase today or tomorrow.
I want a specific vehicle that is on your lot.
I request an out the door price.
If they don’t play, I move to the next dealer.

Since inventory levels are very low, the above may not work as it appears to be a sellers market.
Yeah, currently the inventory is super low and dealers seem to particularly not care about cash buyers. They're unusually slow in replying emails and sometimes don't even bother to respond.
hudson
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

crystalbank wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:15 pm
hudson wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 5:08 pm
crystalbank wrote: Thu Jun 24, 2021 1:43 pm What to do when dealers refuse to give you an out the door price over email? Some dealers don't want to play ball saying that they can't give a final price without "finance" managers approval even when I'm paying cash.
I prefer to first check inventory to be sure they have what I want in stock.
I call and say…
I’m a serious buyer who wants to make a purchase today or tomorrow.
I want a specific vehicle that is on your lot.
I request an out the door price.
If they don’t play, I move to the next dealer.

Since inventory levels are very low, the above may not work as it appears to be a sellers market.
Yeah, currently the inventory is super low and dealers seem to particularly not care about cash buyers. They're unusually slow in replying emails and sometimes don't even bother to respond.
crystalbank,
I don't think that cash buyers have ever been more attractive to dealers than credit buyers.
If I was a dealer, I'd be excited about serious buyers no matter their payment type.
I've read in this discussion that dealers respond better to the contact forms on their websites than to emails.
I've used emails, faxes, texts, and phone calls. Phone calls work best for me. Sure after the initial phone call, I'll follow the salesperson's lead as to which communication method works best for them.
othermike27
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by othermike27 »

hudson wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:54 am I've read in this discussion that dealers respond better to the contact forms on their websites than to emails.
I've used emails, faxes, texts, and phone calls. Phone calls work best for me. Sure after the initial phone call, I'll follow the salesperson's lead as to which communication method works best for them.
I started with phone calls, then found James Bragg's website in 1998 and went with his "fax attack" a few times. The last couple buys have started mostly with dealer website forms instead of emails. So long as they allow a comment section I can get my full first round message to them.

Denovo, hudson and others have laid out the sequence of steps in many posts upthread, but here are mine for interest:

I send a first round email/text/web form with a request to forward it to a sales manager:

Good Morning,

I am ready to buy a <year/make/model/trim level> and would be pleased to receive a quote from you. The vehicle I’m looking for is new, with very low miles and mint condition, <Trim level>, no other options, and <color choices> . Will also consider <enter any second choice colors, options, trims>.

I’m shopping several dealers for stock on your lot now and will make a final selection quickly. This will be a cash purchase.

If you would like to offer a quote, please email all details of your out-the-door total: offer price, destination charge, doc fee, CVR, any other items, tax, title and new license plates. Where I buy depends on several factors, especially who can deliver on a competitive out-the-door price.

Then a second (and final) round email to those who made a complete response:

Thank you once again for responding to my request for an offer on a <vehicle you want>. I will make a purchase decision today or tomorrow latest, and I expect to complete the purchase this week. Where I buy depends on several factors, but the most important one is who can deliver the lowest out-the-door price.

The best OTD offer I have in hand now is: $

I have your current OTD offer at: $

If you are able to make a lower offer, please do so now. If I don’t hear from you today, I’ll assume that I already have your best offer. Best way to contact me today is the email address below.


I last purchased in early 2019. I contacted 9 local dealers and got 8 responses, one of which was just a single number. I sent the second round message to 4 of the remaining 7 full responses who seemed closest to/most likely to close on the exact combination I wanted. Over the last two cycles of using this process, I noticed a definite increase in the number of dealers willing to meet all the terms of my request for an offer. Ten years ago if I contacted 10 dealers I'd typically get 3-5 complete responses. The rest, if they responded at all, would be "gotta come see us for our best number" or "manager has to approve email offers and he's not in today" or "get your best number then come see me last" or whatever.

I would love to hear more experiences from those using this method or a similar one under the Cloud of Covid Confusion.

And for a look at what the buyer is up against, check out the Youtube video "how to work a car deal" by Jim "The Alpha Dawg" Ziegler. His motto is "Full price is a fair price." I think these guys are great entertainment. But maybe that's because I'm tired of binge-watching favorite shows...

Happy shopping all.
hudson
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

othermike27 wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 9:27 am
hudson wrote: Fri Jun 25, 2021 5:54 am I've read in this discussion that dealers respond better to the contact forms on their websites than to emails.
I've used emails, faxes, texts, and phone calls. Phone calls work best for me. Sure after the initial phone call, I'll follow the salesperson's lead as to which communication method works best for them.
I started with phone calls, then found James Bragg's website in 1998 and went with his "fax attack" a few times. The last couple buys have started mostly with dealer website forms instead of emails. So long as they allow a comment section I can get my full first round message to them.

Denovo, hudson and others have laid out the sequence of steps in many posts upthread, but here are mine for interest:

I send a first round email/text/web form with a request to forward it to a sales manager:

Good Morning,

I am ready to buy a <year/make/model/trim level> and would be pleased to receive a quote from you. The vehicle I’m looking for is new, with very low miles and mint condition, <Trim level>, no other options, and <color choices> . Will also consider <enter any second choice colors, options, trims>.

I’m shopping several dealers for stock on your lot now and will make a final selection quickly. This will be a cash purchase.

If you would like to offer a quote, please email all details of your out-the-door total: offer price, destination charge, doc fee, CVR, any other items, tax, title and new license plates. Where I buy depends on several factors, especially who can deliver on a competitive out-the-door price.

Then a second (and final) round email to those who made a complete response:

Thank you once again for responding to my request for an offer on a <vehicle you want>. I will make a purchase decision today or tomorrow latest, and I expect to complete the purchase this week. Where I buy depends on several factors, but the most important one is who can deliver the lowest out-the-door price.

The best OTD offer I have in hand now is: $

I have your current OTD offer at: $

If you are able to make a lower offer, please do so now. If I don’t hear from you today, I’ll assume that I already have your best offer. Best way to contact me today is the email address below.


I last purchased in early 2019. I contacted 9 local dealers and got 8 responses, one of which was just a single number. I sent the second round message to 4 of the remaining 7 full responses who seemed closest to/most likely to close on the exact combination I wanted. Over the last two cycles of using this process, I noticed a definite increase in the number of dealers willing to meet all the terms of my request for an offer. Ten years ago if I contacted 10 dealers I'd typically get 3-5 complete responses. The rest, if they responded at all, would be "gotta come see us for our best number" or "manager has to approve email offers and he's not in today" or "get your best number then come see me last" or whatever.

I would love to hear more experiences from those using this method or a similar one under the Cloud of Covid Confusion.

And for a look at what the buyer is up against, check out the Youtube video "how to work a car deal" by Jim "The Alpha Dawg" Ziegler. His motto is "Full price is a fair price." I think these guys are great entertainment. But maybe that's because I'm tired of binge-watching favorite shows...

Happy shopping all.
Othermike27,

Great stuff!
I like James Bragg’s package; I’ll continue to use his package because of the specific model information in his package. He gives the latest strategies that work for his customers. I like his phone coaching.

Now when I call for an otd quote, I don’t ask for anything but the quote. I don’t say that I’ll call back…just that I’m a serious buyer who is going to buy tomorrow. I don't set any conditions. I want to make it short and sweet. My goal on the phone call is to establish trust. I want the salesperson to think that he has an easy sale…because that’s true.

Bottom line...I just want to be considered a hot and trusted prospect; I want the salesperson and his superiors to have all of my contact information. I want to make a deal if they want to.
saagar_is_cool
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by saagar_is_cool »

What is the process to sell the current car without trade-in. Do you sell to carmax.com or what is the site for autodirect mentioned in the first post . Is it this - https://sellyourautodirect.com/. When I just search for autodirect, it shows a lot of local used car dealerships.

Also, what is the process.

1. Do you show them the vehicle, what about the registration and other details. Do you take the car to their location and what do you take with you.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

You can throw a lot of these tips out the window today, depending on inventory at dealers. Inventory has dropped to unbelievable lows. I've periodically monitored the Jeep dealer near my office and where I bought my Jeep. Background again, the dealer typically has the lot so full that to get in there to buy parts, I have had to circle the dealer to find a parking spot. They even park some cars on the street. A couple miles away, on my route home, they have a lot for overflow that holds about 200 cars. 7 or so months ago, the dealer lot was full and the overflow lot was full. As of this week, the overflow lot is empty and the dealer has 25 cars!

I would expect that this dealer will only take full MSRP offers with financing and a trade. This gives them some replacement used inventory, the kick back for financing and the most money on their dwindling inventory. I know the Toledo Wrangler factory was shut down for lack of parts. I don't know if they're back up and running again. This has happened to a lot of factories, regardless of their location. If the factory can't get a microprocessor needed for a module, that stops production.
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jabberwockOG
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by jabberwockOG »

Crazy time to buy a car (or a home). Wait till after January 2022 to buy a car if possible, covid spending lunacy may slow down by then.
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by placeholder »

A lot of the problem has been a shortage of computer chips for new cars leading to shortages which has a knock on effect for used cars.
JackoC
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by JackoC »

denovo wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:06 pm
nano wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:21 pm Thanks guys.

Used this method to purchase a 2021 Honda HRV LX.

24,290 MSRP
~23,000 OTD

(Tax 5%, Other fees about $300)

Note: The OTD is adjusted because I also traded in. Trade in value was reasonable. But got about 8-9% off MSRP which was good based on the other dealers.
You get the denovo seal of approval with one demerit. I expect you would have gotten a better deal selling the used car separately in the private market or to CarMax.
Your posts have been educational to me, thanks. One thing I might semi-quibble with is trade in, at least in the following non-average situation. I'm now looking to trade a 2018 car. I got an unsolicited letter from the selling (BMW) dealer offering $40k (high $50's MSRP originally) to trade for 2021 model of same car which is $65k MSRP. Actually, I want to shift model, having reconsidered based on most recent 7k mile road trip what's most practical for those trips, main use of our newer car (the 16 yr old car does the local errands, no commuting by car). Back on point, and target vehicle has a similar (low $60k's) MSRP anyway, private sale of $40k+ used cars IME is much less liquid than $5k-10k used cars. I've sold generic liquid used cars privately a few times, and previously failed to generate interest in private sale of expensive used cars (at least before my patience ran out). I will get quote(s) from usual suspect national used car chains and also put up a post on (BMW M2) user forum, which I haven't tried before, but I'm guessing it will come down to dealer trade in. Also in NJ the dealer is allowed to only collect sales tax on the net of the trade, meaning private/CarMax has to beat them by $2.5k+ on a $40k car to even match.

Note, I am *NOT* asking whether I should trade a 3 yr old BMW for a new one: the overall financial impact vs. a good old Camry is not material for me. I just don't like to pay more for the specific stuff I choose to buy than I have to, which I see as a completely different question than what stuff I choose to buy.

I do offer for comment my idea that in this case I will incorporate the trade in my email solicitations. Here's the car (in your inventory by VIN) I want to buy, here's the car I'll sell you (VIN, odometer, photo's of some 'curb rash' on the front rims, one small visible rock chip on the hood, slightly visible windshield chip repair, and statement it's otherwise in near new condition to the layman's eye). 'I want net OTD price in writing, with my agreement you can reject the whole deal when you see the trade-in if you believe it was misrepresented, thumbs up or down, but I won't renegotiate the number'. I'm not sure this will work, but if others are also just 'not sure', I can find out. :happy If somebody knows this won't work from experience, that would be useful.
hudson
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Re: My New Car Buying Tips

Post by hudson »

JackoC wrote: Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:06 am
denovo wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 8:06 pm
nano wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 6:21 pm Thanks guys.

Used this method to purchase a 2021 Honda HRV LX.

24,290 MSRP
~23,000 OTD

(Tax 5%, Other fees about $300)

Note: The OTD is adjusted because I also traded in. Trade in value was reasonable. But got about 8-9% off MSRP which was good based on the other dealers.
You get the denovo seal of approval with one demerit. I expect you would have gotten a better deal selling the used car separately in the private market or to CarMax.
Your posts have been educational to me, thanks. One thing I might semi-quibble with is trade in, at least in the following non-average situation. I'm now looking to trade a 2018 car. I got an unsolicited letter from the selling (BMW) dealer offering $40k (high $50's MSRP originally) to trade for 2021 model of same car which is $65k MSRP. Actually, I want to shift model, having reconsidered based on most recent 7k mile road trip what's most practical for those trips, main use of our newer car (the 16 yr old car does the local errands, no commuting by car). Back on point, and target vehicle has a similar (low $60k's) MSRP anyway, private sale of $40k+ used cars IME is much less liquid than $5k-10k used cars. I've sold generic liquid used cars privately a few times, and previously failed to generate interest in private sale of expensive used cars (at least before my patience ran out). I will get quote(s) from usual suspect national used car chains and also put up a post on (BMW M2) user forum, which I haven't tried before, but I'm guessing it will come down to dealer trade in. Also in NJ the dealer is allowed to only collect sales tax on the net of the trade, meaning private/CarMax has to beat them by $2.5k+ on a $40k car to even match.

Note, I am *NOT* asking whether I should trade a 3 yr old BMW for a new one: the overall financial impact vs. a good old Camry is not material for me. I just don't like to pay more for the specific stuff I choose to buy than I have to, which I see as a completely different question than what stuff I choose to buy.

I do offer for comment my idea that in this case I will incorporate the trade in my email solicitations. Here's the car (in your inventory by VIN) I want to buy, here's the car I'll sell you (VIN, odometer, photo's of some 'curb rash' on the front rims, one small visible rock chip on the hood, slightly visible windshield chip repair, and statement it's otherwise in near new condition to the layman's eye). 'I want net OTD price in writing, with my agreement you can reject the whole deal when you see the trade-in if you believe it was misrepresented, thumbs up or down, but I won't renegotiate the number'. I'm not sure this will work, but if others are also just 'not sure', I can find out. :happy If somebody knows this won't work from experience, that would be useful.
JackoC,
I like to keep it simple. I'd just call the dealer, give him the VIN, and ask for an OTD price.
After I got that, I'd ask them if they were interested in buying my old car.
I like the phone because you get instant feedback, you don't have to wait for the email that may never come.
If an email is too long, it may get ignored. I'm guessing that you wouldn't send an email; you would use the dealers online form instead?
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