What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
fatcoffeedrinker
Posts: 362
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:03 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by fatcoffeedrinker »

jhsu802701 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:25 pm If you have to get a home equity loan to buy a used Porsche, that means you cannot afford one.
This is a common rerfrain from earlier posts as well. The way I read the OP, he doesn't "need" a loan, but there may be tax advantages to borrowing versus selling appreciated assets. Some BHers keep a lot of cash around. I am not one of them (and seems like OP is similar). I literally invest every dollar, and all of my bonds are in tax-deferred, so if I have to sell taxable assets, there will probably be some capital gains hit. If I wanted to buy an expensive car (or expensive anything), I would have to make the same choice. Getting a loan would not be out of "need." It is just spending the funds in the most economically advantageous manner.

EDIT: To add to this, once I retire, buying expensive things in cash may require me to take more out of tax-deferred accounts than I want to, given income taxes and ACA subsidies. There could be a distinct advantage to getting a loan and spreading those withdrawals out over several years.
sureshoe
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:26 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by sureshoe »

fatcoffeedrinker wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:41 pm
jhsu802701 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:25 pm If you have to get a home equity loan to buy a used Porsche, that means you cannot afford one.
This is a common rerfrain from earlier posts as well. The way I read the OP, he doesn't "need" a loan, but there may be tax advantages to borrowing versus selling appreciated assets. Some BHers keep a lot of cash around. I am not one of them (and seems like OP is similar). I literally invest every dollar, and all of my bonds are in tax-deferred, so if I have to sell taxable assets, there will probably be some capital gains hit. If I wanted to buy an expensive car (or expensive anything), I would have to make the same choice. Getting a loan would not be out of "need." It is just spending the funds in the most economically advantageous manner.
For what it's worth, I needed ~$100k cash in a short pinch and triggered a capital gains event. It simply didn't occur to me to withdraw on margin, which I already had lined up. Ended up paying an extra $5-8k in tax, can't remember... just know I was annoyed at my shortsightedness. So while it's fun to mock and judge people, I assume they have some level of intelligence.

This is Boglehead, not DaveRamseyHead.
chipperd
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:58 am
Location: here and now

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by chipperd »

BruDude wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:26 pm Porsche guy here. Is this for something like a GT3 that will hold its value incredibly well or something like a 991 turbo or 992 that will still have another $50-70k of future depreciation? I think that makes a huge difference.

I’ve owned 4 911’s, a 997.2S, two 991.1S and a 991.1 GT3. I made pretty good money on all of them except the GT3 which I bought for $101k and sold a little over a year later for $100k (probably worth $115k in current market). To say the least, I have been incredibly happy with being able to drive these cars for literally no money. If you know what you are doing, it is very possible to drive a $150k 911 for free, close to it, or make a profit. Do A LOT of research. Know the market and the desirable options and color combos. Rennlist is your friend if you aren’t on it already.

Having said all of that, I just did exactly what you described and bought my favorite “obtainable” car of all time, a Ferrari FF. My bank gave me 1.99% interest only HELOC for the first year then 3.49% variable after that. Purchase price $108k. Interest cost = $179/month in year 1, $314/month year 2+ (less if I pay down the principal). These cars are going back up in value and as one of the last NA V12’s are unlikely to ever fall below $90-100k regardless of mileage.

Is the car expensive to service and repair? Absolutely. Is it worth it to me anyway? Absolutely. Every single drive is an experience and the sound with an aftermarket exhaust is just unbelievable. To me, the cost of admission is worth every single penny.

My LTV is under 40% and I’m single with no kids so I have no worries about a market downtown. This is my fun money and the HELOC was by far the cheapest way to utilize it. I could pay cash but why do that when I can keep my money in the market earning way more than 1.99% or 3.49%?

I expect the car to be worth somewhere between $100-125k by the time I’m ready to sell it. When I sell I will eat the difference between the loan balance and sale price if it’s worth less and I haven’t paid down the principal yet. Another reason the HELOC offers more flexibility is you’ll have the title in hand. Buyers of cars in this price range expect you to have the title, not a lien from a bank that you’d have with a traditional auto loan.

Most BH people are not “car people” and don’t get it. That’s fine. I get it and know where you’re coming from. If the interest rate is attractive and you have the cash I think a HELOC offers you the most flexibility. You can always refi into a regular car loan if you need to.
You contradict yourself in the post highlighted above.
No way anyone owns and maintains a Porche, or any car, for nothin'. Maintenance, repairs, insurance, gas, .... you know the drill. The question is, does the appreciation (assuming there is appreciation) cover all those expenses, along with opportunity cost of another investment? If yes I would like to see the math on that.
To the OP: pay cash, but know this is highly unlikely to be a profitable investment (see above). If this is a fun purchase, lets call it that and understand it's a money loser. Which is completely fine in my book. It's your money and no one should be telling you how to spend money to have fun as that's highly personal. But then, nor should you be asking.
"A portfolio is like a bar of soap, the more it's handled, the less there is." Dr. William Bernstein
luckyducky99
Posts: 297
Joined: Sun Dec 15, 2019 7:47 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by luckyducky99 »

fatcoffeedrinker wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:41 pm
jhsu802701 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:25 pm If you have to get a home equity loan to buy a used Porsche, that means you cannot afford one.
The way I read the OP, he doesn't "need" a loan, but there may be tax advantages to borrowing versus selling appreciated assets. Some BHers keep a lot of cash around. I am not one of them (and seems like OP is similar). I literally invest every dollar, and all of my bonds are in tax-deferred, so if I have to sell taxable assets, there will probably be some capital gains hit. If I wanted to buy an expensive car (or expensive anything), I would have to make the same choice.\
+1 to this.

IBKR margin is likely to be the lowest rate you could get for this, assuming your portfolio is big enough to carry it without worrying about getting called, and could easily be less than the tax hit of realizing capital gains.
Topic Author
coffeeblack
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:20 am

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by coffeeblack »

fatcoffeedrinker wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:41 pm
jhsu802701 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:25 pm If you have to get a home equity loan to buy a used Porsche, that means you cannot afford one.
This is a common rerfrain from earlier posts as well. The way I read the OP, he doesn't "need" a loan, but there may be tax advantages to borrowing versus selling appreciated assets. Some BHers keep a lot of cash around. I am not one of them (and seems like OP is similar). I literally invest every dollar, and all of my bonds are in tax-deferred, so if I have to sell taxable assets, there will probably be some capital gains hit. If I wanted to buy an expensive car (or expensive anything), I would have to make the same choice. Getting a loan would not be out of "need." It is just spending the funds in the most economically advantageous manner.

EDIT: To add to this, once I retire, buying expensive things in cash may require me to take more out of tax-deferred accounts than I want to, given income taxes and ACA subsidies. There could be a distinct advantage to getting a loan and spreading those withdrawals out over several years.
TY. At least somebody gets it. :sharebeer
Topic Author
coffeeblack
Posts: 374
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 10:20 am

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by coffeeblack »

luckyducky99 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:09 pm
fatcoffeedrinker wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:41 pm
jhsu802701 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:25 pm If you have to get a home equity loan to buy a used Porsche, that means you cannot afford one.
The way I read the OP, he doesn't "need" a loan, but there may be tax advantages to borrowing versus selling appreciated assets. Some BHers keep a lot of cash around. I am not one of them (and seems like OP is similar). I literally invest every dollar, and all of my bonds are in tax-deferred, so if I have to sell taxable assets, there will probably be some capital gains hit. If I wanted to buy an expensive car (or expensive anything), I would have to make the same choice.\
+1 to this.

IBKR margin is likely to be the lowest rate you could get for this, assuming your portfolio is big enough to carry it without worrying about getting called, and could easily be less than the tax hit of realizing capital gains.
+1
MMiroir
Posts: 185
Joined: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:14 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by MMiroir »

I have not read most of the replies thinking they came from the "why buy anything but a Camry" crowd, but I would not take out a HELOC. Either do a cash out refinance so you can deduct the interest, or take the car loan.

The OP did not make his financial situation clear, but we are cash poor with most of our assets tied up in retirement accounts or home equity. We bought our newest vehicle late last year with a six year $65,000 loan at 3% interest. It will be paid off by the end of this month due to accelerated payments. I hate having debt, so having the car loan focused my earnings and expenses so we can pay it off earlier.
User avatar
8foot7
Posts: 2573
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2015 7:29 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by 8foot7 »

It's pretty clear that at least some folks on this board have no idea how to use debt to avoid or reduce taxes. :oops:

You clearly can afford the Porsche if you have enough assets to pay for the Porsche even if you'd have to pay CG tax to sell the shares in order to fund the purchase. And a hearty LOL to the suggestion than instead of a Porsche, choose an American hobby car.

I'd look into IB for a margin loan or take the DCU 1.49% loan.
fatcoffeedrinker
Posts: 362
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2020 2:03 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by fatcoffeedrinker »

coffeeblack wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:20 pm
fatcoffeedrinker wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:41 pm
jhsu802701 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:25 pm If you have to get a home equity loan to buy a used Porsche, that means you cannot afford one.
This is a common rerfrain from earlier posts as well. The way I read the OP, he doesn't "need" a loan, but there may be tax advantages to borrowing versus selling appreciated assets. Some BHers keep a lot of cash around. I am not one of them (and seems like OP is similar). I literally invest every dollar, and all of my bonds are in tax-deferred, so if I have to sell taxable assets, there will probably be some capital gains hit. If I wanted to buy an expensive car (or expensive anything), I would have to make the same choice. Getting a loan would not be out of "need." It is just spending the funds in the most economically advantageous manner.

EDIT: To add to this, once I retire, buying expensive things in cash may require me to take more out of tax-deferred accounts than I want to, given income taxes and ACA subsidies. There could be a distinct advantage to getting a loan and spreading those withdrawals out over several years.
TY. At least somebody gets it. :sharebeer
Yup. I've actually toyed around with the idea of buying a Tesla Roadster 2 when they become available, and tried to game plan how best to pay for it in the most efficient manner given where my assets are and what they are invested in today.
BruDude
Posts: 3692
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2010 12:28 am
Location: Las Vegas

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by BruDude »

chipperd wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:01 pm
You contradict yourself in the post highlighted above.
No way anyone owns and maintains a Porche, or any car, for nothin'. Maintenance, repairs, insurance, gas, .... you know the drill. The question is, does the appreciation (assuming there is appreciation) cover all those expenses, along with opportunity cost of another investment? If yes I would like to see the math on that.
To the OP: pay cash, but know this is highly unlikely to be a profitable investment (see above). If this is a fun purchase, lets call it that and understand it's a money loser. Which is completely fine in my book. It's your money and no one should be telling you how to spend money to have fun as that's highly personal. But then, nor should you be asking.
I'm not contradicting myself - Ferrari has a significantly higher maintenance/repair cost than Porsche does. I have owned 6 Porsche's and overall they are extremely reliable compared to other German luxury brands. I paid $150 for an oil change once a year. Tires are $1200-1500 a set. I haven't owned any of them long enough to need to replace the brakes but they are in line with other brands. I think I've only had to replace one set of tires in the last 6 years for the same reason. Having an independent shop instead of the dealer is helpful, I wouldn't want to pay dealer pricing for service and repairs. You have insurance and gas costs with all cars so that doesn't really enter into the equation.

Most people buy a new BMW or Mercedes and lose $50k on it in 3 years. You can buy a 911, drive it for 3 years, then sell it for the same price or more, if you know what you're doing and buy the right car. I know which option I'd take.
Flashes1
Posts: 1114
Joined: Wed May 07, 2008 7:43 am

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by Flashes1 »

Predictably, the amount of judging on this site is nauseating all because of the name of car.

To answer the OP's question, I vote for the HELOC primarily because I like to not be boxed-in by an official payment schedule. Here's what I will do: I will buy a car for my daughter when she turns 16 (the brand of the car is deliberately ommitted because I know people here will jump my arse!), and pay the HELOC balance off with excess cash flow generated by my paychecks. This is greatly assisted by having my checking account at the same bank as my HELOC - I have a few extra $ after payday ---that gets put against the HELOC----I will do that when I have an extra $50----I will sometimes make 20 payments a month towards my HELOC balance all in an effort to reduce interest costs.

I paid down a +$100k investment in a local startup and a +$60K car purchase in the past 5 years this way----just relentlessly pay that sucker down!
MarkerFM
Posts: 615
Joined: Fri Nov 30, 2018 4:18 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by MarkerFM »

I am also fully invested. My portfolio throws off more than the normal spend, so I would wait 4-6 months and pay cash, but to answer the OPs question, I would as others have suggested do a margin loan. I believe the interest might be deductible as investment interest depending upon your specific circumstances? HELOCs used to be easy to get with low interest rates, and I always had one out there with no balance. Now, it seems lenders are more difficult-the rates are higher, the max loan is smaller, and the hassle factor is higher.
jello_nailer
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:20 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by jello_nailer »

BruDude wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:37 pm
chipperd wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:01 pm
You contradict yourself in the post highlighted above.
No way anyone owns and maintains a Porche, or any car, for nothin'. Maintenance, repairs, insurance, gas, .... you know the drill. The question is, does the appreciation (assuming there is appreciation) cover all those expenses, along with opportunity cost of another investment? If yes I would like to see the math on that.
To the OP: pay cash, but know this is highly unlikely to be a profitable investment (see above). If this is a fun purchase, lets call it that and understand it's a money loser. Which is completely fine in my book. It's your money and no one should be telling you how to spend money to have fun as that's highly personal. But then, nor should you be asking.
I'm not contradicting myself - Ferrari has a significantly higher maintenance/repair cost than Porsche does. I have owned 6 Porsche's and overall they are extremely reliable compared to other German luxury brands. I paid $150 for an oil change once a year. Tires are $1200-1500 a set. I haven't owned any of them long enough to need to replace the brakes but they are in line with other brands. I think I've only had to replace one set of tires in the last 6 years for the same reason. Having an independent shop instead of the dealer is helpful, I wouldn't want to pay dealer pricing for service and repairs. You have insurance and gas costs with all cars so that doesn't really enter into the equation.

Most people buy a new BMW or Mercedes and lose $50k on it in 3 years. You can buy a 911, drive it for 3 years, then sell it for the same price or more, if you know what you're doing and buy the right car. I know which option I'd take.
The money doesn't know what it's secured by - house equity, stock/bonds, cash, or the car itself. Buy it with the lowest cost money available to you. This is a balance sheet evaluation/decision. If I borrow $50k from my HELOC and buy a car, then the next weekend go to Vegas and spend $2k paying BJ on BH it means I blew $2k gambling and took a HELOC for it. My BS simply moved -$2k against me and each transaction is a personal decision.

FWIW, Buying a good used Porsche generally is hugely less expensive than a ton of other cars. Said the guy with 7 Porsches in my garage. Buy it, it's worth the price of admission as we say.
phxjcc
Posts: 931
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:47 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by phxjcc »

coffeeblack wrote: Sat Jun 12, 2021 3:01 pm So I am considering purchasing a used Porsche. Value of 150K. I plan on keeping it for 3 years.

A colleague likes to purchase cars such as this by using his home equity.

After doing the math and keeping depreciation the same for a pay cash option vs. a 15 year home equity option where he pays the loan off after he sells the car, the interest paid comes out more for the 15 year equity loan by about 4 to 5 grand. The five year loan option has very high payments but still comes out ahead in interest payments. The payments for the home equity are significantly lower and he gets to tap into his home equity. His investments don't have to be used and he does not have to sell stock and pay taxes on them. So he saves there as well as possibly writing off the mortgage interest. To be clear I didn't have a long conversation of the pro's and cons.

What would you do and why?

OK, I didn't post in here to get judgement statements or personal choice statements. I set specific facts and wanted serious answers. If you don't have constructive comments. Then keep it to yourself. I'm not interested. You are being rude and not helping.
It is very simple.

IF THE INTEREST RATE IS LOWER ON CHOICE "A" or "B" then go with that choice.
Amortize it however you want--find an HP14c and run the numbers and then make those payments.
If you want to get sexy, then figure in inflation to the future cash payments---and that $5000 more interest may turn out to be $2500 in today's dollars.

If you are buying a classic, I would go with a 15 HELOC and make the minimum payments.

The appreciation on a 356 or an early "S" would make some of these naysayers clutch their pearls and faint.
bogledogle
Posts: 572
Joined: Wed May 07, 2014 4:34 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by bogledogle »

BruDude wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:06 pm
coffeeblack wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:48 pm
Thanks for the post. I was thinking a turbo S but it seems they depreciate too much. I will have to research a GT3. Or perhaps a 911 S or 4S. I was thinking a 2016 or so.

I have all this equity sitting in my house doing nothing so when my colleague said thats what he does I thought I'd see if there is something to it.
The turbo S is an incredible car but will definitely depreciate much more than a GT car. Have you driven any/all of them? An S/4S, GT3, and turbo S are all VERY different cars despite all being 911s. I would very highly recommend going to LA or Atlanta to the Porsche experience center for a couple of cars to really get a feel for them. Costs $500-1000 per car but a very cool experience that you won’t find anywhere else.

The GT3 is one of the best cars I’ve ever driven, but it’s not for everyone and not as usable daily as a turbo S would be. Hell of a lot of fun. A big selling point for a 991.1 GT3 is they all have a 10 year 120k mile engine warranty. A turbo S in your price range will be out of warranty unless you buy CPO from a dealer.
+1 on GT3 on resale value. Although, maybe OP wants a "power without the noise" experience.

OP,

Absent more info, I say get the cheapest loan you can get that makes sense to you and your tax scenarios. I am not going to presume like some folk here that you will run out of money and go bankrupt ...lol
eucalyptus
Posts: 729
Joined: Tue Apr 24, 2007 1:24 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by eucalyptus »

bogledogle wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 6:28 pm
BruDude wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 9:06 pm
coffeeblack wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:48 pm
Thanks for the post. I was thinking a turbo S but it seems they depreciate too much. I will have to research a GT3. Or perhaps a 911 S or 4S. I was thinking a 2016 or so.

I have all this equity sitting in my house doing nothing so when my colleague said thats what he does I thought I'd see if there is something to it.
The turbo S is an incredible car but will definitely depreciate much more than a GT car. Have you driven any/all of them? An S/4S, GT3, and turbo S are all VERY different cars despite all being 911s. I would very highly recommend going to LA or Atlanta to the Porsche experience center for a couple of cars to really get a feel for them. Costs $500-1000 per car but a very cool experience that you won’t find anywhere else.

The GT3 is one of the best cars I’ve ever driven, but it’s not for everyone and not as usable daily as a turbo S would be. Hell of a lot of fun. A big selling point for a 991.1 GT3 is they all have a 10 year 120k mile engine warranty. A turbo S in your price range will be out of warranty unless you buy CPO from a dealer.
+1 on GT3 on resale value. Although, maybe OP wants a "power without the noise" experience.

OP,

Absent more info, I say get the cheapest loan you can get that makes sense to you and your tax scenarios. I am not going to presume like some folk here that you will run out of money and go bankrupt ...lol



I think we're in a very, very unusual situation today with GT3/RS resale values.

That said, I'm on the list for the 992 version. I understand they're announcing the GT3 Touring tomorrow - OP should get on the list. I think the Touring is the best idea Porsche has had in a long time, even though I won't buy one.
Lookingforanswers
Posts: 73
Joined: Sun May 06, 2018 4:39 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by Lookingforanswers »

You can figure out who someone is by the way they answer this question.

1. Pure Bogleheads: "Get a Camry instead, drive it for 20 years."
2. Semi-pure Bogleheads: "You might have enough money to afford this luxury, but only if you pay cash."
3. Finance geeks: "Don't take the tax hit by selling appreciated stock, borrow the money."
4. Car nuts: "Don't just get one - get two! - one for the track, one for your commute."
260chrisb
Posts: 833
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 7:26 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by 260chrisb »

coffeeblack wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:48 pm
BruDude wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:26 pm Porsche guy here. Is this for something like a GT3 that will hold its value incredibly well or something like a 991 turbo or 992 that will still have another $50-70k of future depreciation? I think that makes a huge difference.

I’ve owned 4 911’s, a 997.2S, two 991.1S and a 991.1 GT3. I made pretty good money on all of them except the GT3 which I bought for $101k and sold a little over a year later for $100k (probably worth $115k in current market). To say the least, I have been incredibly happy with being able to drive these cars for literally no money. If you know what you are doing, it is very possible to drive a $150k 911 for free, close to it, or make a profit. Do A LOT of research. Know the market and the desirable options and color combos. Rennlist is your friend if you aren’t on it already.

Having said all of that, I just did exactly what you described and bought my favorite “obtainable” car of all time, a Ferrari FF. My bank gave me 1.99% interest only HELOC for the first year then 3.49% variable after that. Purchase price $108k. Interest cost = $179/month in year 1, $314/month year 2+ (less if I pay down the principal). These cars are going back up in value and as one of the last NA V12’s are unlikely to ever fall below $90-100k regardless of mileage.

Is the car expensive to service and repair? Absolutely. Is it worth it to me anyway? Absolutely. Every single drive is an experience and the sound with an aftermarket exhaust is just unbelievable. To me, the cost of admission is worth every single penny.

My LTV is under 40% and I’m single with no kids so I have no worries about a market downtown. This is my fun money and the HELOC was by far the cheapest way to utilize it. I could pay cash but why do that when I can keep my money in the market earning way more than 1.99% or 3.49%?

I expect the car to be worth somewhere between $100-125k by the time I’m ready to sell it. When I sell I will eat the difference between the loan balance and sale price if it’s worth less and I haven’t paid down the principal yet. Another reason the HELOC offers more flexibility is you’ll have the title in hand. Buyers of cars in this price range expect you to have the title, not a lien from a bank that you’d have with a traditional auto loan.

Most BH people are not “car people” and don’t get it. That’s fine. I get it and know where you’re coming from. If the interest rate is attractive and you have the cash I think a HELOC offers you the most flexibility. You can always refi into a regular car loan if you need to.
Thanks for the post. I was thinking a turbo S but it seems they depreciate too much. I will have to research a GT3. Or perhaps a 911 S or 4S. I was thinking a 2016 or so.

I have all this equity sitting in my house doing nothing so when my colleague said thats what he does I thought I'd see if there is something to it.
Here's the answer you wanted. If BruDude had chimed in earlier it would have saved a few snarky comments. I'm a Porsche guy (three in the collection currently) but have never taken this approach to buying one. I wish you the best, they are great cars. Please tell me that by you "researching" you also mean driving and understanding that these cars are yes?
jello_nailer
Posts: 436
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2019 10:20 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by jello_nailer »

260chrisb wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 7:19 pm
coffeeblack wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 8:48 pm
BruDude wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:26 pm Porsche guy here. Is this for something like a GT3 that will hold its value incredibly well or something like a 991 turbo or 992 that will still have another $50-70k of future depreciation? I think that makes a huge difference.

I’ve owned 4 911’s, a 997.2S, two 991.1S and a 991.1 GT3. I made pretty good money on all of them except the GT3 which I bought for $101k and sold a little over a year later for $100k (probably worth $115k in current market). To say the least, I have been incredibly happy with being able to drive these cars for literally no money. If you know what you are doing, it is very possible to drive a $150k 911 for free, close to it, or make a profit. Do A LOT of research. Know the market and the desirable options and color combos. Rennlist is your friend if you aren’t on it already.

Having said all of that, I just did exactly what you described and bought my favorite “obtainable” car of all time, a Ferrari FF. My bank gave me 1.99% interest only HELOC for the first year then 3.49% variable after that. Purchase price $108k. Interest cost = $179/month in year 1, $314/month year 2+ (less if I pay down the principal). These cars are going back up in value and as one of the last NA V12’s are unlikely to ever fall below $90-100k regardless of mileage.

Is the car expensive to service and repair? Absolutely. Is it worth it to me anyway? Absolutely. Every single drive is an experience and the sound with an aftermarket exhaust is just unbelievable. To me, the cost of admission is worth every single penny.

My LTV is under 40% and I’m single with no kids so I have no worries about a market downtown. This is my fun money and the HELOC was by far the cheapest way to utilize it. I could pay cash but why do that when I can keep my money in the market earning way more than 1.99% or 3.49%?

I expect the car to be worth somewhere between $100-125k by the time I’m ready to sell it. When I sell I will eat the difference between the loan balance and sale price if it’s worth less and I haven’t paid down the principal yet. Another reason the HELOC offers more flexibility is you’ll have the title in hand. Buyers of cars in this price range expect you to have the title, not a lien from a bank that you’d have with a traditional auto loan.

Most BH people are not “car people” and don’t get it. That’s fine. I get it and know where you’re coming from. If the interest rate is attractive and you have the cash I think a HELOC offers you the most flexibility. You can always refi into a regular car loan if you need to.
Thanks for the post. I was thinking a turbo S but it seems they depreciate too much. I will have to research a GT3. Or perhaps a 911 S or 4S. I was thinking a 2016 or so.

I have all this equity sitting in my house doing nothing so when my colleague said thats what he does I thought I'd see if there is something to it.
Here's the answer you wanted. If BruDude had chimed in earlier it would have saved a few snarky comments. I'm a Porsche guy (three in the collection currently) but have never taken this approach to buying one. I wish you the best, they are great cars. Please tell me that by you "researching" you also mean driving and understanding that these cars are yes?
^ Drive them all, they are all different, very different. Drive a ton of them until one speaks to you.
The AWD Turbo's drive much heavier than the GT3's but you can drive in lower rpm range with the turbo. Get an S at minimum if it's a commuter/grocery getter and I would definitely get the 4S because of the extra wide hips - it just looks beautiful. GT3 is quite visceral, new ones are less so and more civilized.
Hopefully you won't find that the fun is in the hunt - that it's more fun the find than own and drive.
JackoC
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by JackoC »

HyperCat wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 10:00 pm
BruDude wrote: Sun Jun 13, 2021 7:26 pm Most BH people are not “car people” and don’t get it.
I'd say that's a mischaracterization. My impression is there are a lot of car people here (including myself). However, someone who purely appreciates cars and their driving experience can be happy with a $5-10k car. All that the extra $140k buys is performance that can't be practically used and the status symbol of a rare badge. It shouldn't be surprising that most Bogleheads would say to avoid that ego trap, buy a Miata/944/MGB/350Z instead, and invest the remainder.
The part about 'the status symbol of a rare badge' sounds pretty non-car person doctrinaire BH-ish to me. :happy To me 'car person' would mean somebody who understood how high end 911's appeal to other car people, as cars, even if they were not their choice. There might be cases where a very high performance car is arguably 'buying a badge for status', an arguable example might be Lamborghini Urus (SUV) v highest comparable Audi Q SUV*. But no way IMO does that apply to high end 911's. IMO there are car people who have the means, circumstances and taste for them to buy them, and car people whose means circumstances and tastes don't come out that way but understand why other car people do buy them *as cars*.

The M2 was put to the test yesterday in hours of driving extremely winding remote roads along OR side of the Snake Canyon, 2k+ miles from home. I don't believe our stuff, for a two week+ trip also with hiking, would fit in a 911, obviously not in a Miata. An M3/4 (among various other cars) would have both more performance and more room, but also would not be quite the same around 25mph hairpins. Though, I might actually get a bigger car for road trips, maybe even an SUV (a Macan GTS maybe) and give up some agility for more well roundedness. With an SUV on all season tires (and we could carry chains) wouldn't have to avoid snow in the mountains so fastidiously (got caught in snow May 2019 in the M2 in CO on summer tires). Also we could extend to destinations further out on gravel roads (I coaxed the M2 down a few miles of gravel on this trip). It all depends on the use of the car. But just as far as cornering and two lane passing, I could use more performance than the M2 has, though it's very and pretty good at those two things IMO. The 'can't use the performance' thing is sometimes overstated IMO when it seems to focus on top track speed, but a Miata's top speed isn't legal to use on public roads either.

*currently same corporate parent, much mechanical similarity though some Lambo mechanical customization, but end result big price difference and narrow performance difference, if even in the Lambo's favor.
HyperCat
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2021 10:44 am

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by HyperCat »

JackoC wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:57 pm The part about 'the status symbol of a rare badge' sounds pretty non-car person doctrinaire BH-ish to me. :happy To me 'car person' would mean somebody who understood how high end 911's appeal to other car people, as cars, even if they were not their choice. There might be cases where a very high performance car is arguably 'buying a badge for status', an arguable example might be Lamborghini Urus (SUV) v highest comparable Audi Q SUV*. But no way IMO does that apply to high end 911's. IMO there are car people who have the means, circumstances and taste for them to buy them, and car people whose means circumstances and tastes don't come out that way but understand why other car people do buy them *as cars*.
*Shrugs* I've owned Porsches, driven my share of exotics, and hung out with enough owners. My opinion is what it is based on those experiences. Feel free to disagree with it and take it with as much salt as you would anyone else's on the internet.
User avatar
JupiterJones
Posts: 3069
Joined: Tue Aug 24, 2010 3:25 pm
Location: Nashville, TN

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by JupiterJones »

What would I do? I'd either just pay cash for the thing and call it a day, or I wouldn't buy the car.

I'm not saying that there aren't potential financial/tax advantages to fooling around with loans and credit and such. Only that I typically wouldn't consider the time/effort/risk involved to be worth it, when it comes to anything I would be in the market for buying.

To put it another way, I go by a general rule-of-thumb: If the amount saved by borrowing money to buy a thing instead of using the money I have to buy the thing makes enough of a difference in my life to bother with, then the thing is probably too expensive for me.

Conversely, if the thing is something that's not too expensive for me, then by definition the amount saved via financial finagling is negligible, so I might as well just pay for the thing outright.
Stay on target...
squirm
Posts: 3567
Joined: Sat Mar 19, 2011 11:53 am

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by squirm »

I've done this before many times in the past, it's not rocket science. Many people took out margin loans during the 90's Nasdaq bull market, so did I. In huge bulls when markets literally go straight up, why pull money out and get taxed to death??? The only issue is if markets turn quickly on you, then your hit with the notorious margin calls, unless you have a good buffer, decide to short, or pull the trigger early enough to cover the debt before getting wiped out.
sureshoe
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:26 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by sureshoe »

JackoC wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:57 pm The part about 'the status symbol of a rare badge' sounds pretty non-car person doctrinaire BH-ish to me. :happy To me 'car person' would mean somebody who understood how high end 911's appeal to other car people, as cars, even if they were not their choice. There might be cases where a very high performance car is arguably 'buying a badge for status', an arguable example might be Lamborghini Urus (SUV) v highest comparable Audi Q SUV*. But no way IMO does that apply to high end 911's. IMO there are car people who have the means, circumstances and taste for them to buy them, and car people whose means circumstances and tastes don't come out that way but understand why other car people do buy them *as cars*.

The M2 was put to the test yesterday in hours of driving extremely winding remote roads along OR side of the Snake Canyon, 2k+ miles from home. I don't believe our stuff, for a two week+ trip also with hiking, would fit in a 911, obviously not in a Miata. An M3/4 (among various other cars) would have both more performance and more room, but also would not be quite the same around 25mph hairpins. Though, I might actually get a bigger car for road trips, maybe even an SUV (a Macan GTS maybe) and give up some agility for more well roundedness. With an SUV on all season tires (and we could carry chains) wouldn't have to avoid snow in the mountains so fastidiously (got caught in snow May 2019 in the M2 in CO on summer tires). Also we could extend to destinations further out on gravel roads (I coaxed the M2 down a few miles of gravel on this trip). It all depends on the use of the car. But just as far as cornering and two lane passing, I could use more performance than the M2 has, though it's very and pretty good at those two things IMO. The 'can't use the performance' thing is sometimes overstated IMO when it seems to focus on top track speed, but a Miata's top speed isn't legal to use on public roads either.

*currently same corporate parent, much mechanical similarity though some Lambo mechanical customization, but end result big price difference and narrow performance difference, if even in the Lambo's favor.
I feel like I'm getting told I should go listen to Joey Santiago play guitar. Meh, I'll pop on a Taylor Swift record.
hilink73
Posts: 561
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 3:29 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by hilink73 »

jhsu802701 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:25 pm If you have to get a home equity loan to buy a used Porsche, that means you cannot afford one.

Nobody needs a Porsche. This is a hobby car, not a daily driver. Parts are difficult to come by, and only a few mechanics know their way around a Porsche. Thus, the maintenance and repairs will be prohibitively expensive even if all goes well. If there are problems, that's quite a money pit. If you thought that maintenance and repairs were expensive on your Honda, Toyota, Ford, or Chevrolet, they will be several times more expensive on the Porsche.

If you really want a hobby car, get a Japanese or American brand car. Parts will be MUCH easier and cheaper to obtain, and you can easily find mechanics who can work on your car. If your car turns out to be a lemon, at least it will waste FAR less of your money.
That's your opinion, not a fact.
chipperd
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sat Sep 24, 2011 5:58 am
Location: here and now

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by chipperd »

BruDude wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 3:37 pm
chipperd wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 1:01 pm
You contradict yourself in the post highlighted above.
No way anyone owns and maintains a Porche, or any car, for nothin'. Maintenance, repairs, insurance, gas, .... you know the drill. The question is, does the appreciation (assuming there is appreciation) cover all those expenses, along with opportunity cost of another investment? If yes I would like to see the math on that.
To the OP: pay cash, but know this is highly unlikely to be a profitable investment (see above). If this is a fun purchase, lets call it that and understand it's a money loser. Which is completely fine in my book. It's your money and no one should be telling you how to spend money to have fun as that's highly personal. But then, nor should you be asking.
I'm not contradicting myself - Ferrari has a significantly higher maintenance/repair cost than Porsche does. I have owned 6 Porsche's and overall they are extremely reliable compared to other German luxury brands. I paid $150 for an oil change once a year. Tires are $1200-1500 a set. I haven't owned any of them long enough to need to replace the brakes but they are in line with other brands. I think I've only had to replace one set of tires in the last 6 years for the same reason. Having an independent shop instead of the dealer is helpful, I wouldn't want to pay dealer pricing for service and repairs. You have insurance and gas costs with all cars so that doesn't really enter into the equation.

Most people buy a new BMW or Mercedes and lose $50k on it in 3 years. You can buy a 911, drive it for 3 years, then sell it for the same price or more, if you know what you're doing and buy the right car. I know which option I'd take.
The third option is not buying a car at all as an investment and call it a toy. I don't begrudge anyone having toys or doing whatever they want with their money. Have fun, but know it's an ongoing sunk expense. Most toys do lose money in one way or another. It's great you found a way to loose less than others.
"A portfolio is like a bar of soap, the more it's handled, the less there is." Dr. William Bernstein
JackoC
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by JackoC »

sureshoe wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:15 am
JackoC wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:57 pm The part about 'the status symbol of a rare badge' sounds pretty non-car person doctrinaire BH-ish to me. :happy To me 'car person' would mean somebody who understood how high end 911's appeal to other car people, as cars, even if they were not their choice. There might be cases where a very high performance car is arguably 'buying a badge for status', an arguable example might be Lamborghini Urus (SUV) v highest comparable Audi Q SUV*. But no way IMO does that apply to high end 911's. IMO there are car people who have the means, circumstances and taste for them to buy them, and car people whose means circumstances and tastes don't come out that way but understand why other car people do buy them *as cars*.
I feel like I'm getting told I should go listen to Joey Santiago play guitar. Meh, I'll pop on a Taylor Swift record.
I hope you know what you mean, cause shot right over my head. Who is Joey Santiago? :happy
helloeveryone
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:16 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by helloeveryone »

sureshoe wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:48 pm
fatcoffeedrinker wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:41 pm
jhsu802701 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:25 pm If you have to get a home equity loan to buy a used Porsche, that means you cannot afford one.
This is a common rerfrain from earlier posts as well. The way I read the OP, he doesn't "need" a loan, but there may be tax advantages to borrowing versus selling appreciated assets. Some BHers keep a lot of cash around. I am not one of them (and seems like OP is similar). I literally invest every dollar, and all of my bonds are in tax-deferred, so if I have to sell taxable assets, there will probably be some capital gains hit. If I wanted to buy an expensive car (or expensive anything), I would have to make the same choice. Getting a loan would not be out of "need." It is just spending the funds in the most economically advantageous manner.
For what it's worth, I needed ~$100k cash in a short pinch and triggered a capital gains event. It simply didn't occur to me to withdraw on margin, which I already had lined up. Ended up paying an extra $5-8k in tax, can't remember... just know I was annoyed at my shortsightedness. So while it's fun to mock and judge people, I assume they have some level of intelligence.

This is Boglehead, not DaveRamseyHead.
What does withdraw on margin mean? (is that same as getting HELOC as OP describes?)
sureshoe
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:26 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by sureshoe »

helloeveryone wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:47 pm
sureshoe wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:48 pm
fatcoffeedrinker wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:41 pm
jhsu802701 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:25 pm If you have to get a home equity loan to buy a used Porsche, that means you cannot afford one.
This is a common rerfrain from earlier posts as well. The way I read the OP, he doesn't "need" a loan, but there may be tax advantages to borrowing versus selling appreciated assets. Some BHers keep a lot of cash around. I am not one of them (and seems like OP is similar). I literally invest every dollar, and all of my bonds are in tax-deferred, so if I have to sell taxable assets, there will probably be some capital gains hit. If I wanted to buy an expensive car (or expensive anything), I would have to make the same choice. Getting a loan would not be out of "need." It is just spending the funds in the most economically advantageous manner.
For what it's worth, I needed ~$100k cash in a short pinch and triggered a capital gains event. It simply didn't occur to me to withdraw on margin, which I already had lined up. Ended up paying an extra $5-8k in tax, can't remember... just know I was annoyed at my shortsightedness. So while it's fun to mock and judge people, I assume they have some level of intelligence.

This is Boglehead, not DaveRamseyHead.
What does withdraw on margin mean? (is that same as getting HELOC as OP describes?)
No, this is quite different than a HELOC.

I have a couple hundred thousand in a brokerage account, most of which has ran up substantially. I was buying a house, and because I was closing on the new property before my old property was going to close, I needed $100k cash (or so). But, I didn't have anything liquid - so what's a boy to do?

Stupidly, I sold $100k of stock. This triggered capital gains taxes. At the same time, the market continued to run up, so I missed out on a few percent point gains. Furthermore, I dragged out reinvestment a couple more months just because I didn't want to drop $100k in at once, so I did $25k/month over 4 months... and the market kept climbing. All-in-all, just a bad decision made in haste.

What I SHOULD have done, and just didn't consider, was withdraw $100k cash from my brokerage account. This would have effectively caused my brokerage to lend me the money on MARGIN. So to simplify, let's say I have $250k in VT ETF and no cash right now. I have no margin. What would happen is I would have still had $250k in VT, but a -$100k cash balance that the brokerage loaned me at 5% interest (or whatever their margin rate is). Then, 1-2 months later when my house clears/etc, I re-deposit the money back into my brokerage and the cash balance goes back to $0. I pay interest on whatever time period I had the negative balance. The big advantage, particularly for a bridge type loan, is that it doesn't trigger any sort of capital gains event.

The danger is, of course, the market takes a dive and I have the dreaded "margin call" where I have to come up with the money to meet margin requirements or they start selling VT to make up the minimum requirements.

Compare this to a HELOC (which I'm literally getting ready to open), and I'm opening a credit line against my house, qualifying for credit, etc. The collateral is my home. Foreclosing on the house if I don't pay is a lot tougher. Which is why getting a HELOC is more complex than getting margin. Both have their purpose.
sureshoe
Posts: 396
Joined: Tue Jan 15, 2019 4:26 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by sureshoe »

JackoC wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:00 pm
sureshoe wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:15 am
JackoC wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:57 pm The part about 'the status symbol of a rare badge' sounds pretty non-car person doctrinaire BH-ish to me. :happy To me 'car person' would mean somebody who understood how high end 911's appeal to other car people, as cars, even if they were not their choice. There might be cases where a very high performance car is arguably 'buying a badge for status', an arguable example might be Lamborghini Urus (SUV) v highest comparable Audi Q SUV*. But no way IMO does that apply to high end 911's. IMO there are car people who have the means, circumstances and taste for them to buy them, and car people whose means circumstances and tastes don't come out that way but understand why other car people do buy them *as cars*.
I feel like I'm getting told I should go listen to Joey Santiago play guitar. Meh, I'll pop on a Taylor Swift record.
I hope you know what you mean, cause shot right over my head. Who is Joey Santiago? :happy
Joey Santiago is some great technical guitarist that everyone tells me I should appreciate. I don't :) I don't appreciate fine cars either. I like a mush riding Lexus.

Taylor Swift is the mush riding Lexus in this parable.
helloeveryone
Posts: 848
Joined: Sun Sep 04, 2016 5:16 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by helloeveryone »

sureshoe wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:13 pm
helloeveryone wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:47 pm
sureshoe wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:48 pm
fatcoffeedrinker wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:41 pm
jhsu802701 wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 12:25 pm If you have to get a home equity loan to buy a used Porsche, that means you cannot afford one.
This is a common rerfrain from earlier posts as well. The way I read the OP, he doesn't "need" a loan, but there may be tax advantages to borrowing versus selling appreciated assets. Some BHers keep a lot of cash around. I am not one of them (and seems like OP is similar). I literally invest every dollar, and all of my bonds are in tax-deferred, so if I have to sell taxable assets, there will probably be some capital gains hit. If I wanted to buy an expensive car (or expensive anything), I would have to make the same choice. Getting a loan would not be out of "need." It is just spending the funds in the most economically advantageous manner.
For what it's worth, I needed ~$100k cash in a short pinch and triggered a capital gains event. It simply didn't occur to me to withdraw on margin, which I already had lined up. Ended up paying an extra $5-8k in tax, can't remember... just know I was annoyed at my shortsightedness. So while it's fun to mock and judge people, I assume they have some level of intelligence.

This is Boglehead, not DaveRamseyHead.
What does withdraw on margin mean? (is that same as getting HELOC as OP describes?)
No, this is quite different than a HELOC.

I have a couple hundred thousand in a brokerage account, most of which has ran up substantially. I was buying a house, and because I was closing on the new property before my old property was going to close, I needed $100k cash (or so). But, I didn't have anything liquid - so what's a boy to do?

Stupidly, I sold $100k of stock. This triggered capital gains taxes. At the same time, the market continued to run up, so I missed out on a few percent point gains. Furthermore, I dragged out reinvestment a couple more months just because I didn't want to drop $100k in at once, so I did $25k/month over 4 months... and the market kept climbing. All-in-all, just a bad decision made in haste.

What I SHOULD have done, and just didn't consider, was withdraw $100k cash from my brokerage account. This would have effectively caused my brokerage to lend me the money on MARGIN. So to simplify, let's say I have $250k in VT ETF and no cash right now. I have no margin. What would happen is I would have still had $250k in VT, but a -$100k cash balance that the brokerage loaned me at 5% interest (or whatever their margin rate is). Then, 1-2 months later when my house clears/etc, I re-deposit the money back into my brokerage and the cash balance goes back to $0. I pay interest on whatever time period I had the negative balance. The big advantage, particularly for a bridge type loan, is that it doesn't trigger any sort of capital gains event.

The danger is, of course, the market takes a dive and I have the dreaded "margin call" where I have to come up with the money to meet margin requirements or they start selling VT to make up the minimum requirements.

Compare this to a HELOC (which I'm literally getting ready to open), and I'm opening a credit line against my house, qualifying for credit, etc. The collateral is my home. Foreclosing on the house if I don't pay is a lot tougher. Which is why getting a HELOC is more complex than getting margin. Both have their purpose.
Got it. Thank you for explaining it so well!
lws
Posts: 234
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:12 pm

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by lws »

Do a used car loan.
Good luck with the purchase.
JackoC
Posts: 2438
Joined: Sun Aug 12, 2018 11:14 am

Re: What would you do and why? [HELOC to buy used Porsche]

Post by JackoC »

sureshoe wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 10:17 pm
JackoC wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 9:00 pm
sureshoe wrote: Tue Jun 15, 2021 11:15 am
JackoC wrote: Mon Jun 14, 2021 10:57 pm The part about 'the status symbol of a rare badge' sounds pretty non-car person doctrinaire BH-ish to me. :happy To me 'car person' would mean somebody who understood how high end 911's appeal to other car people, as cars, even if they were not their choice. There might be cases where a very high performance car is arguably 'buying a badge for status', an arguable example might be Lamborghini Urus (SUV) v highest comparable Audi Q SUV*. But no way IMO does that apply to high end 911's. IMO there are car people who have the means, circumstances and taste for them to buy them, and car people whose means circumstances and tastes don't come out that way but understand why other car people do buy them *as cars*.
I feel like I'm getting told I should go listen to Joey Santiago play guitar. Meh, I'll pop on a Taylor Swift record.
I hope you know what you mean, cause shot right over my head. Who is Joey Santiago? :happy
Joey Santiago is some great technical guitarist that everyone tells me I should appreciate. I don't :) I don't appreciate fine cars either. I like a mush riding Lexus.

Taylor Swift is the mush riding Lexus in this parable.
OK but it's kind of off the point of the exchange. Hypercat claims to be a 'car person' who nonetheless assumes people who buy high end 911's buy them for 'the status symbol of a badge'. This seems a little incongruous to me; it's much more typical IME of non-car people to invoke the 'status symbol of a badge' criticism of buyers of impressively performing, expensive cars. But I guess everyone has their own experiences. But you're saying you're not a car person. Which is fine. I don't see how my statements could be construed to read 'everyone has to be a car person', so that's probably why I didn't get your point, besides never having heard of Joey. And only some non-car people fail to understand that other people *do* appreciate highly capable cars, I never said they all fail to. Many people who don't appreciate X themselves recognize that others do appreciate X; a less self aware subset for each X fail to understand that everyone isn't like them.
Post Reply