U.S. stocks in free fall

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letsgobobby
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by letsgobobby »

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rotLobster
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by rotLobster »

its hard not to stare at your portfolio in times like this when the market takes a nose dive.

actually thats why i dont stare and thus avoid the worry.

someone said, 'the time to buy is when there's blood in the streets' i guess thats market timing though..

i maxed my 401k this year, i hope the market is down a bit when i start loading up in January.
vwgrrc
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by vwgrrc »

We have been on cash-heavy side for little while, is this a good time to buy in or should still wait a little bit :confused
Kompass
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Kompass »

I'm waiting for my 20% off coupon. 8-)
The large print giveth and the fine print taketh away.
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by finite_difference »

vwgrrc wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:11 pm We have been on cash-heavy side for little while, is this a good time to buy in or should still wait a little bit :confused
“The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today.” - Chinese proverb

If you’re worried about further drops, DCA in over time.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
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calmaniac
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by calmaniac »

finite_difference wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:23 pm “The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today.” - Chinese proverb
Love it! I have had that thought so many times, but never expressed so eloquently. Brilliant.
63 yo,1y til go part-time. AA 70/30: 30% S&P, 16% value, 14% intl, 10% EM, 30% short/int govt bonds. My mil pension + DW's now ≈60% of expenses. Taking SS @age 70--> pension+SS ≈100% of expenses.
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Taylor Larimore
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Post by Taylor Larimore »

Bogleheads:
There will be times when the waters are rough, and fear, even panic will hold sway. When these trying times come, be sure to, yes, Stay the Course.
Source: Jack Bogle's "Forward" in The Bogleheads' Guide to The Three-Fund Portfolio.

Best wishes.
Taylor
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willthrill81
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by willthrill81 »

My funds are back where they were in October of last year! The horror!! Get the kids in the car honey, we're heading for the hills!! :wink:
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
flyingaway
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by flyingaway »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 10:29 pm My funds are back where they were in October of last year! The horror!! Get the kids in the car honey, we're heading for the hills!! :wink:
I do my portfolio calculation at the end of every month. I am going to know if I am still financially independent in the morning of November 1.
rgs92
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by rgs92 »

Taylor should always get the last word. Thanks Taylor!
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loves2read
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by loves2read »

Pre-market is not showing much upside at 9EST
The HSI and NIKKEI are both down -- on their 10/25--by 2-3% when I checked

The market is always where it is supposed to be according to "efficient market" theory, isn't it?
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loves2read
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by loves2read »

letsgobobby wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 pm
Earl Lemongrab wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:13 pm
loves2read wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:06 pm Makes me think of the Bradbury short story "All Summer in a Day" where the sun only comes out one day a year on Venus...
That was kind of a sad story.
It's only once every seven years.

One of my favorites.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... fLNN-9hsi5
Yes my mistake
Long time since I read it
Bradbury does wistful and wonder so well...not every piece...but certain ones...
rgs92
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by rgs92 »

The S&P is exactly where it was on April 9th of this year. (2656) Did you feel that your portfolio was doing terribly then?
It was even lower in March, a month earlier. Did that feel like your portfolio was performing horribly?
If not, why feel bad? Just imagine you are back in springtime again.
2015
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by 2015 »

Getting control of one's emotions is markedly more important than whatever the stock market happens to be doing at the present moment. If you cannot invest unemotionally at all times at the very least try to act like you do.
Grogs
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Grogs »

letsgobobby wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 8:27 pm
Earl Lemongrab wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:13 pm
loves2read wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 6:06 pm Makes me think of the Bradbury short story "All Summer in a Day" where the sun only comes out one day a year on Venus...
That was kind of a sad story.
It's only once every seven years.

One of my favorites.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source= ... fLNN-9hsi5
Thanks to you all. I have vaguely recalled that book several times over the years, but couldn't for the life of me remember the name. I seem to recall there was a short film as well that we watched back in grade school.

As for the markets, my taxable account is fairly small and I've just reached the point where I can TLH and get more than $1k in losses. Monday will be 31 days since my last purchase so I'll TLH then unless there is a rapid rebound.
Elbukari
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Elbukari »

I am quite knew to investing and although my portfolio is not large (about 25k), it's quite interesting to see myself so apathetic the last couple of weeks. I guess it didn't take me too long to understand that the market goes down and up, but that overtime it tends to go up and make money for all of us that...stay the course, as we say here on this forum. I donno.

I like chapter 8 of the Intelligent Investor. In these times, I would recommend those who are itching to do something to read it, or re-read it.
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c.coyle
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by c.coyle »

Is something happening?
VTSAX - 50%, VBTLX - 50%
MotoTrojan
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by MotoTrojan »

Elbukari wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 4:43 am I am quite knew to investing and although my portfolio is not large (about 25k), it's quite interesting to see myself so apathetic the last couple of weeks. I guess it didn't take me too long to understand that the market goes down and up, but that overtime it tends to go up and make money for all of us that...stay the course, as we say here on this forum. I donno.

I like chapter 8 of the Intelligent Investor. In these times, I would recommend those who are itching to do something to read it, or re-read it.
Right there with you. I look multiple times a day and no qualms. If it dropped 50% I'd be thrilled to do some serious loss-harvesting.

Approaching $100K.
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DanMahowny
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by DanMahowny »

Today's "bounce back" will be short lived. Pretty soon, the market will roll over and go deep red.
Funding secured
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willthrill81
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by willthrill81 »

DanMahowny wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:38 am Today's "bounce back" will be short lived. Pretty soon, the market will roll over and go deep red.
I'm glad to hear that somebody's crystal ball is working.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by MotoTrojan »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:32 am
DanMahowny wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:38 am Today's "bounce back" will be short lived. Pretty soon, the market will roll over and go deep red.
I'm glad to hear that somebody's crystal ball is working.
Missed my chance to TLH several fund classes yesterday :(. I'll take it.
MotoTrojan
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by MotoTrojan »

Yesterday was the first day in my investing career that my portfolio balance has dropped below my total contributions. Pretty neat!
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gilgamesh
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by gilgamesh »

MotoTrojan wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:35 am Yesterday was the first day in my investing career that my portfolio balance has dropped below my total contributions. Pretty neat!
when did you start your contributions?
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by MotoTrojan »

gilgamesh wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:39 am
MotoTrojan wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:35 am Yesterday was the first day in my investing career that my portfolio balance has dropped below my total contributions. Pretty neat!
when did you start your contributions?
I believe it was February of 2017. Currently at $84K. Started with just a 2016/2017 IRA and then built up taxable via income and some private stock sales. Current job just got a 401k in July and it'll be maxed by next month. US & Small-value tilt 100% equity.

To be clear, I suppose my very first contribution could've flipped negative, but it has been an uphill ride since.
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by cpan00b »

MotoTrojan wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:35 am Yesterday was the first day in my investing career that my portfolio balance has dropped below my total contributions. Pretty neat!
Same here. I started investing in April of 2017 and have my entire networth in the market. Yesterday was the first day I went into negative territory. Sucks that the market has wiped out all of the gains I ever made (albeit only had about $15k gains) and I could have just started investing today and been in a better position.
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by MotoTrojan »

cpan00b wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:52 am
MotoTrojan wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:35 am Yesterday was the first day in my investing career that my portfolio balance has dropped below my total contributions. Pretty neat!
Same here. I started investing in April of 2017 and have my entire networth in the market. Yesterday was the first day I went into negative territory. Sucks that the market has wiped out all of the gains I ever made (albeit only had about $15k gains) and I could have just started investing today and been in a better position.
But you tax-loss harvested and saved on taxes, right :sharebeer .
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by cpan00b »

MotoTrojan wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:53 am
cpan00b wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:52 am
MotoTrojan wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:35 am Yesterday was the first day in my investing career that my portfolio balance has dropped below my total contributions. Pretty neat!
Same here. I started investing in April of 2017 and have my entire networth in the market. Yesterday was the first day I went into negative territory. Sucks that the market has wiped out all of the gains I ever made (albeit only had about $15k gains) and I could have just started investing today and been in a better position.
But you tax-loss harvested and saved on taxes, right :sharebeer .
I only have a paper net loss of $2k right now so I haven't yet. Is there a guide to Tax loss harvesting you recommend? I hold only VTIAX and VTSAX in my taxable account wondering if there is any conflict since I also hold VSTAX (and VEXMX) in my roth. At my fidelity 401k I also hold FSIVX (Sp500 Index) and FSPSX (International index). What would I even buy if i sold? Most of my losses are coming from international exposure (VTIAX).

ETA: I also dont have any capital gains to offset with. I am in the highest tax bracket for income though and am still perpetually using 3k of NOL that I carry forward each year from a huge loss I suffered when I played with stocks when I was younger. So don't think any benefit?
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gilgamesh
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by gilgamesh »

MotoTrojan wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:48 am
gilgamesh wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:39 am
MotoTrojan wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:35 am Yesterday was the first day in my investing career that my portfolio balance has dropped below my total contributions. Pretty neat!
when did you start your contributions?
I believe it was February of 2017. Currently at $84K. Started with just a 2016/2017 IRA and then built up taxable via income and some private stock sales. Current job just got a 401k in July and it'll be maxed by next month. US & Small-value tilt 100% equity.

To be clear, I suppose my very first contribution could've flipped negative, but it has been an uphill ride since.
Yeah! it sounded like you are a relatively new investor. That's a good amount for just being in the market less than 2 years.
flyingaway
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by flyingaway »

DanMahowny wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:38 am Today's "bounce back" will be short lived. Pretty soon, the market will roll over and go deep red.
Please let me know how deep it will go. I like free falls.
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by MotoTrojan »

cpan00b wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:58 am
MotoTrojan wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:53 am
cpan00b wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:52 am
MotoTrojan wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 9:35 am Yesterday was the first day in my investing career that my portfolio balance has dropped below my total contributions. Pretty neat!
Same here. I started investing in April of 2017 and have my entire networth in the market. Yesterday was the first day I went into negative territory. Sucks that the market has wiped out all of the gains I ever made (albeit only had about $15k gains) and I could have just started investing today and been in a better position.
But you tax-loss harvested and saved on taxes, right :sharebeer .
I only have a paper net loss of $2k right now so I haven't yet. Is there a guide to Tax loss harvesting you recommend? I hold only VTIAX and VTSAX in my taxable account wondering if there is any conflict since I also hold VSTAX (and VEXMX) in my roth. At my fidelity 401k I also hold FSIVX (Sp500 Index) and FSPSX (International index). What would I even buy if i sold? Most of my losses are coming from international exposure (VTIAX).

ETA: I also dont have any capital gains to offset with. I am in the highest tax bracket for income though and am still perpetually using 3k of NOL that I carry forward each year from a huge loss I suffered when I played with stocks when I was younger. So don't think any benefit?
I don't know how big your loss is but someday you'll want to sell investments and can offset that income well above 3k/year.

Plenty of threads on here to read but yes you have to be careful with your IRA with regards to a wash sale. With US stocks you have Total US, S&P500, and Vanguard Large-cap so maybe use Large-cap if you don't hold it already. For Total International I swap between VXUS (primary) and VEU.

I personally ignore wash sales in 401k as I interpret the IRS to not care about those. Others feel differently.
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by ruralavalon »

calmaniac wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:27 pm
finite_difference wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 9:23 pm “The best time to plant a tree was 20 years ago. The second best time is today.” - Chinese proverb
Love it! I have had that thought so many times, but never expressed so eloquently. Brilliant.
+ 1.
flyingaway wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 10:22 am
DanMahowny wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:38 am Today's "bounce back" will be short lived. Pretty soon, the market will roll over and go deep red.
Please let me know how deep it will go. I like free falls.
I predict that most predictions will be very wrong.

The S&P 500 index is up 1.52% so far today.
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Wakefield1
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by Wakefield1 »

Lotta market timing going on out there.
Still wonder if it is professionals managing institutional money or individual holders of mutual funds/stocks.
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willthrill81
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by willthrill81 »

Wakefield1 wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:27 am Lotta market timing going on out there.
Still wonder if it is professionals managing institutional money or individual holders of mutual funds/stocks.
I suspect that computer algorithms are responsible for a lot of this. Is there really that much more to panic about now versus a month ago? All of the economic indicators are still very robust.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
MJS
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by MJS »

c.coyle wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 5:55 am Is something happening?
Bad things. Horrid things. Dreadful things.
All the stores have Christmas displays and it's not even Halloween yet!
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rudeboy
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by rudeboy »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:44 am
Wakefield1 wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 11:27 am Lotta market timing going on out there.
Still wonder if it is professionals managing institutional money or individual holders of mutual funds/stocks.
I suspect that computer algorithms are responsible for a lot of this. Is there really that much more to panic about now versus a month ago? All of the economic indicators are still very robust.
I'm not making a prediction here, but 'economic indicators' didn't help us foresee or prevent the major crashes of the past, because the market has crashed in a new way every time. Once it has crashed, we then look back and say, "Oh, hey, here's a new economic indicator."
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knpstr
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by knpstr »

The recent run up in the last 2 years has been so dramatic I still "feel" ahead if the DJIA is above 20,000.

It's still a 19.55% decline from here to hit 19,999.
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by edgeagg »

rudeboy wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:17 pm I'm not making a prediction here, but 'economic indicators' didn't help us foresee or prevent the major crashes of the past, because the market has crashed in a new way every time. Once it has crashed, we then look back and say, "Oh, hey, here's a new economic indicator."
Well, that isn't quite true. Interest rate inversions have been pretty predictive - see this paper from Vanguard. Naturally, I am not making a prediction either, :o
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by willthrill81 »

hdas wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:10 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Wed Oct 24, 2018 3:36 pm We're not quite in an official correction yet, but we're close (down 9.1%).

Don't abandon your strategy. Stick to your IPS.
Mr. willthrill81, since you are the resident Trend Follower, would you kindly illuminate the forum regarding the conditions of your system to exit US stocks? Thanks
There are two components to my trend following strategy concerning whether to be in or out of stocks. For me to move out of stocks, the unemployment rate must be above its 12 month moving average and stocks must be trading below their 7 month moving average (measured at the end of the month). The UER is still well below its 12 month moving average, and as of the last trading day of September, stocks were still above their 7 month moving average. So it's steady as she goes for me.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by willthrill81 »

edgeagg wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:38 pm
rudeboy wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:17 pm I'm not making a prediction here, but 'economic indicators' didn't help us foresee or prevent the major crashes of the past, because the market has crashed in a new way every time. Once it has crashed, we then look back and say, "Oh, hey, here's a new economic indicator."
Well, that isn't quite true. Interest rate inversions have been pretty predictive - see this paper from Vanguard. Naturally, I am not making a prediction either, :o
Indeed. The single best recession indicator I'm aware of is the 12 month moving average of the unemployment rate. Every recession since 1948 has been preceded by the UER moving above its 12 month moving average. On average, this happened about 3.5 months before the recession begins (ranging from 0 to 8 months).
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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rudeboy
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by rudeboy »

edgeagg wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:38 pm
rudeboy wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:17 pm I'm not making a prediction here, but 'economic indicators' didn't help us foresee or prevent the major crashes of the past, because the market has crashed in a new way every time. Once it has crashed, we then look back and say, "Oh, hey, here's a new economic indicator."
Well, that isn't quite true. Interest rate inversions have been pretty predictive - see this paper from Vanguard. Naturally, I am not making a prediction either, :o
An inverted yield curve has preceded the past 7 recessions by 5-17 months. If that were actionable, no one would be advocating 'buy and hold.'
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by rudeboy »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:54 pm
edgeagg wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:38 pm
rudeboy wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:17 pm I'm not making a prediction here, but 'economic indicators' didn't help us foresee or prevent the major crashes of the past, because the market has crashed in a new way every time. Once it has crashed, we then look back and say, "Oh, hey, here's a new economic indicator."
Well, that isn't quite true. Interest rate inversions have been pretty predictive - see this paper from Vanguard. Naturally, I am not making a prediction either, :o
Indeed. The single best recession indicator I'm aware of is the 12 month moving average of the unemployment rate. Every recession since 1948 has been preceded by the UER moving above its 12 month moving average. On average, this happened about 3.5 months before the recession begins (ranging from 0 to 8 months).
Just curious -- how many times has the UER moved above its 12 month moving average and not preceded a recession within 5 months?
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willthrill81
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by willthrill81 »

rudeboy wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 1:08 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:54 pm
edgeagg wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:38 pm
rudeboy wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 12:17 pm I'm not making a prediction here, but 'economic indicators' didn't help us foresee or prevent the major crashes of the past, because the market has crashed in a new way every time. Once it has crashed, we then look back and say, "Oh, hey, here's a new economic indicator."
Well, that isn't quite true. Interest rate inversions have been pretty predictive - see this paper from Vanguard. Naturally, I am not making a prediction either, :o
Indeed. The single best recession indicator I'm aware of is the 12 month moving average of the unemployment rate. Every recession since 1948 has been preceded by the UER moving above its 12 month moving average. On average, this happened about 3.5 months before the recession begins (ranging from 0 to 8 months).
Just curious -- how many times has the UER moved above its 12 month moving average and not preceded a recession within 5 months?
Almost every time that the UER has crossed its 12 month moving average, a recession has followed. The longest lead time has been 8 months. See this site for a chart and explanation.

But I don't rely only on the UER. I also use the 7 month moving average, and don't trade unless both indicators 'tell me' to move out of stocks.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by willthrill81 »

letsgobobby wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:01 pm How much have stocks typically fallen by the time those indicators tell you to move out of stocks?
The point of trend following is not to get out at the peak because that's impossible to do on a regular basis. The point is to minimize downside risk, particularly those nasty 40-50% declines that happen every now and then, without a compensatory reduction in upside potential.

For instance, if one had employed the decades old 200 day moving average (roughly the same as a 10 month moving average) in the last recession, they would have moved out of stocks in Dec., 2007, and not moved back in until Jun., 2009. They wouldn't have missed all of the downside or captured all of the upside, but they would fared much better than buy-and-hold in every measurable way. I have a hard time believing that many humans making subjective market timing decisions could have done that well at picking when to get out and back in.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
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nedsaid
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by nedsaid »

The markets were up today pretty strongly but fell short of wiping out yesterday's losses. Hard to say what is going on, probably some profit taking. It seems that the market wants a correction and got it. My guess is that the markets will thrash around for a while. Up big one day, down big the next, and then up again the day after that. Another thing to remember is that we are in October which often has been a volatile month. I still remember October 1987 when the market crashed 22% in one day! It was a scary event but 1987 ended with markets in positive territory. Hopefully, someone won't post in the competing "Soar" thread and ruin this rally. :wink:
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edgeagg
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by edgeagg »

willthrill81 wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:37 pm
letsgobobby wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 3:01 pm How much have stocks typically fallen by the time those indicators tell you to move out of stocks?
The point of trend following is not to get out at the peak because that's impossible to do on a regular basis. The point is to minimize downside risk, particularly those nasty 40-50% declines that happen every now and then, without a compensatory reduction in upside potential.
I think that I cannot put it any better than what WillThrill81 said. I did use the inversion data in my IP to move to a 50/50 AA from my (then) 70/30 in 2007 and I am very definitely a stay the course kind of guy. There have been plenty of threads on BH as well as articles from the Fed on the phenomenon and economics behind this, so I won't recap it here. FWIW I am now at 60/40.

A reasonable question to ask is: When do I get back to 60/40 if I rebalance to 50/50? Obviously inversions are of no use. Don't have a good answer there.
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munemaker
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Re: U.S. stocks in freefall

Post by munemaker »

DanMahowny wrote: Thu Oct 25, 2018 8:38 am Today's "bounce back" will be short lived. Pretty soon, the market will roll over and go deep red.
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