VG will not cancel the order

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Re: Child Proof Software Available FREE

Post by Tramper Al » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:31 pm

ziggy29 wrote:Cheap shot and uncalled for.
I'll say. We've got a ho-hum but convenient minor feature that is available pretty much everywhere but VG. Those who would like it are called unethical, stupid, and told they can invest elsewhere. Tough crowd, I think.

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Post by Dale_G » Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:56 pm

My Fido mutual fund account does not permit cancellation of exchanges.

Neither Fidelity's nor Vanguard's policy bothers me in the least. Now I might have a problem if I asked the surgeon to amputate the wrong leg.

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Post by FD » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:29 pm

My Fido mutual fund account does not permit cancellation of exchanges.


Just did it and it works.

BTW, we are talking about a few types of fund transaction...buy, sell, exchange..I tried them all in Fidelity and Schwab and it works.
This means I actually created a transaction and then canceled it.

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Post by pshonore » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:36 pm

FD wrote:
My Fido mutual fund account does not permit cancellation of exchanges.


Just did it and it works.

BTW, we are talking about a few types of fund transaction...buy, sell, exchange..I tried them all in Fidelity and Schwab and it works.
This means I actually created a transaction and then canceled it.
Last time I looked, at Fido you can only exchange within the same fund family, on the same day. Exchange to a different family involves a sell on day 1 and a buy on day 2.

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Post by FD » Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:46 pm

Last time I looked, at Fido you can only exchange within the same fund family, on the same day. Exchange to a different family involves a sell on day 1 and a buy on day 2.
That's correct...and the way in all/most other companies I know.

BTW, as somebody who coded this...as far as I know...the program is still doing a buy and a sell.
There is no such a thing as an exchange when the program is actually performing it...so I really don't like the word "exchange".
I wish they will tell you "buy and sell at the same day" or "buy and sell in 2 days".

This is what Fidelity tells you in the first screen of trade mutual funds
You can sell to buy mutual funds within the same family (exchange) or across different families. When you sell to buy across different families the trade normally executes over two business days. Typically, the sale will execute at the next available price and the purchase will execute on the next business day. This process will expose you to the risk of market fluctuations, please make sure you wish to proceed with this trade.
Excellent explanation.

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Post by Tramper Al » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:08 pm

Dale_G wrote:Now I might have a problem if I asked the surgeon to amputate the wrong leg.
Yeah, that would be bad. What if you indicated the wrong leg to the surgeon on Saturday, and he scheduled the procedure for Monday afternoon. You realized your mistake and informed the surgeon. He said, yeah you didn't have to tell me which leg until right before the surgery, but since you did, I'm afraid we'll have to amputate that wrong leg. Sorry, just policy. Maybe to keep costs down, or protect my other patients, or maybe because I just don't know how to change the OR schedule. Actually, I don't know why. You could use another surgeon, next time.

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Post by Gekko » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:13 pm

Once you click Submit and receive a confirmation number, this transaction cannot be changed or canceled.

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Post by dkdoy » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:28 pm

FD wrote:
My Fido mutual fund account does not permit cancellation of exchanges.


Just did it and it works.

BTW, we are talking about a few types of fund transaction...buy, sell, exchange..I tried them all in Fidelity and Schwab and it works.
This means I actually created a transaction and then canceled it.
I have done it also

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Re: Child Proof Software Available FREE

Post by nisiprius » Fri Nov 06, 2009 6:58 pm

ziggy29 wrote:
Imbusted wrote:If reading carefully is not enough to prevent stupid mistakes like his, maybe his parents should install Child Proof 1.0. It's available FREE on the internet.
Cheap shot and uncalled for.
I read carefully. I make stupid mistakes like this. Therefore, understandably, I don't think we should be blaming the victim.

There are only so many levels of "undo" they can provide. At some point you're committed to the transaction.

IMHO Vanguard's website is reasonably well designed in terms of making it quite clear exactly when you're about to commit, and exactly what you're committing to.

Furthermore, if you decide to cancel instead of proceeding, you get a screen that says something like to the effect that you've just asked to cancel the transaction, if you proceed you'll be canceling--and gives you an option to cancel the cancellation request!
In 'The Rubaiyat of Omar Khayyam,' as translated by Edward FitzGerald, Omar Khayyam wrote:The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all your piety nor wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a line,
Nor all your tears wash out a word of it.
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Re: VG will not cancel the order

Post by fsrph » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:31 pm

FD wrote:Since I don't have an account with VG I would like to know if it's true.

A friend of mine has an account with VG and told me the following...

he wanted to do an exchange from one fund to another but entered the wrong amount of shares.

He thought he can just cancel it...nope.
He called VG rep and the answer is still...nope.

I have an account with Fidelity and Schwab and I can not believe this can be true.
Vanguard's policy is clear that once a confirmation number is received the transaction can't be canceled. That is their policy. Now, if you are asking if it is a good policy that is a different question. I think it is a good policy. It is clear and there are no exceptions. Allowing transaction cancellations after a confirmation number is received opens up a can of worms. For example, let's say an order is entered at 10 am to buy shares of TSM. At that time the DOW is down 250 points. At 3:30 pm that day the DOW is now up 200 points ..... so you just call a VG rep and tell them you entered the wrong number of shares and want the transaction canceled. After all your intent was to buy when the market was down. Isn't that gaming the system? Why should VG be placed in the position to determine who "really" made an innocent mistake and wants to reverse their transaction and those who are attempting to market time? One rule for everyone is much better. You still could buy on market down days, just enter your transaction near market close.

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Post by FD » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:45 pm

The VG religion at it's best.
VG is right and all other companies are wrong.

Amen...I finally got it...last post for me on this subject.

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Post by fundtalk » Fri Nov 06, 2009 7:52 pm

I have had a self directed 401k at Schwab and a taxable account with vanguard for years. I used to wish my company would change to Vanguard. That is no longer the case. Schwab always had customer service, web site and order features that were light years beyond Vanguard's. But, they mostly offered over priced active funds and poor quality index funds. Schwab has evolved and they now offer the cheapest ETF's, free ETF trades, institutional shares of the RAFI funds, along with continuing to have a much better website and customer service.

Investors have had to put up with Vanguard's terrible customer service for years because they were the only game in town (if you wanted low cost index funds). Hopefully, it will dawn on Vanguard that the index investing world has changed dramatically and they need to evolve. Starting free ETF trading for the Vanguard ETF's would be a brilliant move right now.

In my opinion you can be a Boglehead and still point out faults with Vanguard and try to get them to improve. Resorting to absurd arguments (gaming the system and harming shareholders by cancelling orders??) to justify poor policies only harms us, the owners of Vanguard, in the long run.

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Re: VG will not cancel the order

Post by tfb » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:24 pm

fsrph wrote:For example, let's say an order is entered at 10 am to buy shares of TSM. At that time the DOW is down 250 points. At 3:30 pm that day the DOW is now up 200 points ..... so you just call a VG rep and tell them you entered the wrong number of shares and want the transaction canceled. After all your intent was to buy when the market was down. Isn't that gaming the system? Why should VG be placed in the position to determine who "really" made an innocent mistake and wants to reverse their transaction and those who are attempting to market time? One rule for everyone is much better. You still could buy on market down days, just enter your transaction near market close.
No it's not gaming the system because nothing happens until after 4pm. The exchanges are processed after 4pm. If you cancel before 4pm, nothing happens. No need to determine why somebody entered an order. If orders stayed after 4pm, process them. If they are canceled before 4pm, then don't. One rule for everyone. Easy to understand.
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Post by nisiprius » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:39 pm

FD wrote:The VG religion at it's best.
VG is right and all other companies are wrong.
FD, I don't get it. What do you want? Griping about Vanguard Brokerage Services is perennial on this forum. For example, there was a long thread recently on how settlement times work at Vanguard. Apparently some but not all transactions take longer to settle at Vanguard Brokerage Services than at "most" other brokerages.

You want us to say some things about VBS are slightly sucky? Fine, some things about VBS are slightly sucky. As I write this, yeah, literally all of my mutual funds are Vanguard index funds, so I think I qualify as having the "Vanguard religion." And I have a brokerage account at Fidelity. It's not a big deal.

Although the exact details of what you can cancel where haven't been fully pinned down, this thread confirms that Vanguard Brokerage Services does have a stricter no-cancellation policy than most brokerages, and that, yes, indeed, your friend is indeed very likely stuck with a transaction that quite possibly could have been cancelled elsewhere.

I suggested a way for your friend to make the best of it.

We're not being dismissive when we say if your friend doesn't like it, he should go elsewhere. I'm going to guess there's a fairly good chance your friend really will like Fidelity or Schwab somewhat better than Vanguard. Your friend must balance the various nuisance issues of moving against "a fairly good chance of somewhat better." If he's really upset about not being able to cancel, maybe he should take his brokerage business elsewhere. (However, before pulling the trigger he should spend ten minutes of quality time talking to the other brokerage's customer reps and making sure he understands exactly how the policy really works at the new brokerage).

If your friend says "OK, VBS isn't so great but I just don't care that much, I'll just stay with them," that's fine too.

Complaining about VBS is like complaining that Costco won't take Visa or that Five Guys Burgers and Fries doesn't have chicken nuggets. Yeah, OK, so they're different, and some people think it's OK, and some people aren't crazy about it, but it is what it is and I doubt that it will change soon, so if you really want chicken nuggets go to McDonald's, not because we're blowing you off but because McDonald's isn't that far away and they have pretty good chicken nuggets.
Last edited by nisiprius on Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:00 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by jpsfranks » Fri Nov 06, 2009 9:55 pm

I cannot believe that anyone defends Vanguard on this issue. Lack of specific lot identification is annoying. The wall between Vanguard mutual funds and VBS is annoying. The lack of order cancellation is just plain loony and can only be explained by a bad system.

As others have pointed out, it is NOT gaming the system. If I can place an order at 3:59 PM I should be able to modify an order at 3:59 PM.

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Why we left VBS

Post by Taylor Larimore » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:13 pm

Hi Bogleheads:

Conversations like this make me appreciate that our funds are now held directly with Vanguard.
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle

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Post by indexfundfan » Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:27 pm

Strange that VBS was mentioned. I didn't see FD complaining about VBS. I guess VBS is the straw man.
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Post by dave.d » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:41 am

You still could... just enter your transaction near market close.
Because Vanguard will not permit cancellation of orders, I enter practically all of my open-ended fund orders between 3:50 and 3:55pm. If they would like advance notice of what I am planning to do, I would be happy to enter it earlier... if I could still cancel in the event the market moved against me.

With cancellation unavailable, I just wait and enter my transactions at the last minute. The process reminds me of "sniper" bidding on Ebay, where you try to enter your bid at the very last second before the auction closes. In each case, the idea is to maximize knowledge of the other bids you're competing with, before placing your own. I would imagine this is a load on Vanguard's servers at closing time. At least in my case, that could be largely avoided if they permitted cancellation of orders.
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Post by Rrolack » Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:48 am

I once put in a six-figure buy order for a VG fund that was similar to the one I wanted, but wasn't exactly the right one. I wanted the Intermediate Term Bond Index, but I accidentally bought Intermediate Term Investment Grade.

The order was placed on a Saturday. Later that day, I realized the mistake I'd made, and VG said nothing could be done. I asked if I should just exchange from the Investment Grade to the Bond Index shortly after my buy order goes through, and he said I can absolutely do that. Of course, that's exactly what I did.

Really, anyone who buys the wrong fund by accident is just going to sell it immediately. Does this sound like something that's good for the fund's shareholders?

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Post by grabiner » Sun Nov 08, 2009 10:36 pm

nisiprius wrote:Proceeding on the assumption that the original poster would like to help his friend minimize the impact of his mistake, I have a suggestion.

I once made a stupid mistake in an order. I don't remember the details, but I traded X for Y and traded more shares than I meant to, say $5,000 more. I wished I could undo out part of the exchange. But because of the frequent trading policy, I was locked out of buying X for 60 days.
If Vanguard won't waive the frequent-trading policy for a situation like this, you can always get around it by placing the return exchange order by mail; it will take about three days to fix the mistake.
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Post by topos » Sun Nov 08, 2009 11:19 pm

You still could... just enter your transaction near market close.
I am not sure how one can do that. Here is the Vanguard policy I get on every transaction:
Purchases by electronic bank transfer that you submit by 10 p.m., Eastern time, Monday through Friday, will receive the next business day's trade date. We will debit your bank account and you will be able to view your purchase in your account online on the business day following your trade date.
Purchases that you submit after 10 p.m., Eastern time, or on weekends or holidays, will receive a trade date of the second business day after your submission. We will debit your bank account and you will be able to view your purchase in your account online on the business day following your trade date.
Every time, I have to enter a transaction the day before, and before 10PM. If I enter a transaction on the Week end , it only get executed on Tuesday.
Do other have different policy?

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Post by tfb » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:32 am

topos wrote:
You still could... just enter your transaction near market close.
I am not sure how one can do that. Here is the Vanguard policy I get on every transaction
Same day transactions only for exchanges, including exchanges from a money market fund, not for purchases using money from an external bank account.
Harry Sit, taking a break from the forums.

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Post by wander » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:40 am

topos wrote: Every time, I have to enter a transaction the day before, and before 10PM. If I enter a transaction on the Week end , it only get executed on Tuesday.
Do other have different policy?
If you already have the money in your VG account and exchange, you can execute the transaction before 4pm. It sounds like you have the money from your bank account. If so, you have to enter it before 10pm for next day transaction (before 10 pm on Friday for it to happen on Monday). T. Rowe Price allows you to purchase before 4 pm although money is still at the bank; you can cancel the transaction anytime as long it is not 4 pm yet. With brokerage account, you want to transfer the money from your bank to your brokerage account first before purchasing a fund and you likely to enter/cancel a transaction anytime before 4 pm for the transaction happens on that day.

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Post by FD » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:29 am

Purchases by electronic bank transfer that you submit by 10 p.m., Eastern time, Monday through Friday, will receive the next business day's trade date. We will debit your bank account and you will be able to view your purchase in your account online on the business day following your trade date.
Another "great" service by VG.

At Fidelity...
you issue a transfer from the your bank at 10 AM (or after).
buy with this money a mutual fund immediately....of course you can cancel any time before 4 PM.

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Post by Buysider » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:44 am

Amen...I finally got it...last post for me on this subject.
Another "great" service by VG.
Keep on swinging, Vanguard can take it. FWIW, I don't see a cult of Vanguard here - it is just they are so much better than everyone else when it comes to cost AND ethics. T Rowe is as close as it gets in terms of ethics, but their expenses are still higher.

If you want to complain about Vanguard service, it is your right, though since you aren't a customer, it seems a little pointless. I'm a happy Vanguard customer, but I could care less about not being able to change my mind after I place orders. If I wanted to complain, it'd be about a lack of 24x7 customer service ... but that costs money, and I don't want to pay for it.

If you want really high end service, you can go to a private back and they will do extremely high levels of service .. at a price. When I was in b-school, a private banker of a big private bank talked about flying a corporate jet out to a client's vacation home to open up a Coverdell Savings Account the day the baby was born. If you don't care about cost, service is only a question of how much is too much.

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Post by Doc » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:08 am

Buysider wrote: If you want to complain about Vanguard service, it is your right, though since you aren't a customer, it seems a little pointless. I'm a happy Vanguard customer, but I could care less about not being able to change my mind after I place orders. If I wanted to complain, it'd be about a lack of 24x7 customer service ... but that costs money, and I don't want to pay for it.
I am a Vanguard customer and I don't have any accounts anywhere else. I think I have a right to complain. I initially chose Vanguard because of its low cost. I really knew very little about its service. As time has gone bye and I see what is happening at my wife's non Vanguard accounts I am in a better position to compare Vanguard to other investment companies. I see the cost at other companies going down, often lower that Vanguards, and other companies services improve with the availability of new technology while Vanguard seems to be stuck in the last century. If Vanguard doesn't keep up with the services of their low cost competitors they will lose market share and there costs will go up. Then we will get both higher costs and poorer services from Vanguard. If loyal Vanguard advocates will get off their adoration of Vanguard and start complaining also maybe Vanguard will still be around when it is time for my grandchildren to start investing. One can always have hope.
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Post by Mel Lindauer » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:27 am

Doc wrote:
Buysider wrote: If you want to complain about Vanguard service, it is your right, though since you aren't a customer, it seems a little pointless. I'm a happy Vanguard customer, but I could care less about not being able to change my mind after I place orders. If I wanted to complain, it'd be about a lack of 24x7 customer service ... but that costs money, and I don't want to pay for it.
I am a Vanguard customer and I don't have any accounts anywhere else. I think I have a right to complain. I initially chose Vanguard because of its low cost. I really knew very little about its service. As time has gone bye and I see what is happening at my wife's non Vanguard accounts I am in a better position to compare Vanguard to other investment companies. I see the cost at other companies going down, often lower that Vanguards, and other companies services improve with the availability of new technology while Vanguard seems to be stuck in the last century. If Vanguard doesn't keep up with the services of their low cost competitors they will lose market share and there costs will go up. Then we will get both higher costs and poorer services from Vanguard. If loyal Vanguard advocates will get off their adoration of Vanguard and start complaining also maybe Vanguard will still be around when it is time for my grandchildren to start investing. One can always have hope.
While Vanguard does read this forum, I think that a written complaint directly to your Vanguard rep via either secure e-mail or snail mail will get more response if enough people complain about the same service (or lack of service). Same goes for all the others who want to complain about this or any another) restriction or perceived problem.
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Post by mfen » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:34 am

I have not read the financial report perhaps someone here has. I have always assumed that the lion's share of Vanguard's profits are from plan managing, not individual retail accounts. It seems to operate in accordance with those type of accounts.

That being said I am a retail account owner. I have invested with many other brokerages and have finally settled on Vanguard despite its apparent limitations. We consolidated to Vanguard since we were shifting our retirement savings from our own active management to complete indexing with periodic investing. Vanguard is ideal for this. I agree it is not ideal for actively traded portfolios. And as I have stated on other threads I keep my Fidelity account open for bond transactions because it is just a better platform.

I test drive brokerages before I enlist (because that is what it is) and read all the disclosures concerning operations. READ the brochures before you pick a brokerage. I call customer service before enlisting and wend my way through the voice menu pretending to be a current customer. It lets me know how responsive they are to current customers, then I explain my motives and ask some technical question to judge the quality of the answer. You cannot use one of those stupid checklists published in the financial media, you have to read. The rules are the rules. I test drive my banks also. You will never get a perfect fit but you can determine what is an optimal fit for your needs. It is your money you have to do due diligence to protect it.
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Post by Doc » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:11 am

Mel Lindauer wrote:
Doc wrote:
Buysider wrote: If you want to complain about Vanguard service, it is your right, though since you aren't a customer, it seems a little pointless. I'm a happy Vanguard customer, but I could care less about not being able to change my mind after I place orders. If I wanted to complain, it'd be about a lack of 24x7 customer service ... but that costs money, and I don't want to pay for it.
I am a Vanguard customer and I don't have any accounts anywhere else. I think I have a right to complain. I initially chose Vanguard because of its low cost. I really knew very little about its service. As time has gone bye and I see what is happening at my wife's non Vanguard accounts I am in a better position to compare Vanguard to other investment companies. I see the cost at other companies going down, often lower that Vanguards, and other companies services improve with the availability of new technology while Vanguard seems to be stuck in the last century. If Vanguard doesn't keep up with the services of their low cost competitors they will lose market share and there costs will go up. Then we will get both higher costs and poorer services from Vanguard. If loyal Vanguard advocates will get off their adoration of Vanguard and start complaining also maybe Vanguard will still be around when it is time for my grandchildren to start investing. One can always have hope.
While Vanguard does read this forum, I think that a written complaint directly to your Vanguard rep via either secure e-mail or snail mail will get more response if enough people complain about the same service (or lack of service). Same goes for all the others who want to complain about this or any another) restriction or perceived problem.
Hi, Mel. "... will get more response". I said "one can always have hope". But that's a lot of hope. :)

I am sure Vanguard is aware that their competitors are starting to surpass them on both the cost and service fronts. Eventually they will have to take some correction action to avoid becoming a "used to be". The only question is how much market share they will lose before they take the needed steps. Being able to cancel an order is a minor inconvenience but waiting over ten days to buy an ETF after depositing money into your clearing account is another matter.
Recently purchased shares. Although you can redeem shares at any time, proceeds
may not be made available to you until the fund collects payment for your purchase.
This may take up to ten calendar days for shares purchased by check or by electronic
bank transfer. If you have written a check on a fund with checkwriting privileges, that
check may be rejected if your fund account does not have a sufficient available balance.
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Post by dbr » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:37 am

What fraction of Vanguard invested assets outstanding are held at Vanguard compared to elsewhere? What fraction of transactions in Vanguard funds and ETF's are conducted other than at Vanguard?

How important is it to a fund company that they also maintain a service to buy and sell their own funds? Is Vanguard somehow unique in these characteristics compared to other fund companies?

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Post by Doc » Mon Nov 09, 2009 11:55 am

dbr wrote:What fraction of Vanguard invested assets outstanding are held at Vanguard compared to elsewhere? What fraction of transactions in Vanguard funds and ETF's are conducted other than at Vanguard?

How important is it to a fund company that they also maintain a service to buy and sell their own funds? Is Vanguard somehow unique in these characteristics compared to other fund companies?
Interesting questions. I'm probably suffering from "bias of the familiar". Over the past five years I've seen our investment in Vanguard funds drop by 50% while our assets held at Vanguard have held steady. My bias is that I think others are doing the same. But I have no evidence of that. What I do know is that if I have a cost competitive choice, and there are more and more every week, I no longer pick Vanguard just because it is Vanguard. Five years ago that would not have been true. On the other hand, since our assets at Vanguard have reminaed steady maybe the bias is towards the familiar.
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Confused

Post by Taylor Larimore » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:27 pm

Hi Doc:

What does this mean?:
Over the past five years I've seen our investment in Vanguard funds drop by 50% while our assets held at Vanguard have held steady.
Thank you.
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Re: Confused

Post by Harold » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:39 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:Hi Doc:

What does this mean?:
Over the past five years I've seen our investment in Vanguard funds drop by 50% while our assets held at Vanguard have held steady.
Thank you.
I took it to mean that his dissatisfaction with Vanguard is affecting his new contributions.

Kind of like my dissatisfaction with a 63 cent accounting error that Fidelity refuses to fix has cost them many thousands in new contributions from me.

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Re: Still confused

Post by Taylor Larimore » Mon Nov 09, 2009 12:56 pm

Harold wrote:
Taylor Larimore wrote:Hi Doc:

What does this mean?:
Over the past five years I've seen our investment in Vanguard funds drop by 50% while our assets held at Vanguard have held steady.
Thank you.
I took it to mean that his dissatisfaction with Vanguard is affecting his new contributions.
Hi Harold:

If so, where does Doc invest new contributions? He previously wrote: "I am a Vanguard customer and I don't have any accounts anywhere else."
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle

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Re: Confused

Post by Doc » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:29 pm

Taylor Larimore wrote:Hi Doc:

What does this mean?:
Over the past five years I've seen our investment in Vanguard funds drop by 50% while our assets held at Vanguard have held steady.
Thank you.
Vanguard funds have dropped from 27% to 16% of our total portfolios. I rounded the 16/27 to 50% as an illustration. It says nothing about the performance of Vanguard funds which remain very good. The non Vanguard funds that we hold at Vanguard have increased since the total assets at Vanguard as a percentage of our total portfolio has not changed.

Harold wanted to know about new money. We're old. There is no new money. But as I have made trades in order to rebalance or tax harvest or as bonds mature the proceeds have predominantly gone into ETFs and non Vanguard index funds. Please note I don't have any real problem with the performance of Vanguard funds. Vanguard's policies just make it easier to do these transactions elsewhere. So as an example when we have a bond mature at another investment firm I am likely to sell VFINX at Vanguard and buy the replacement bond at Vanguard and replace the S&P 500 with the proceeds from the maturing bond either with the other companies S&P 500 fund or with an ETF. Five years ago this would not have been possible because the alternatives to VFINX were not cost effective, now they are.

If we did have new money it would not go to Vanguard but it might be invested in Vanguard ETFs.
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No longer confused

Post by Taylor Larimore » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:50 pm

Hi Doc:

Thank you for your explanation.
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle

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Post by statsguy » Mon Nov 09, 2009 1:56 pm

As nisiprius says it is Vanguard policy. I do not understand all the comments about how they support the policy but that is just me.

If you rarely buy or sell anything and rarely have to deal with VBS then Vanguard has excellent funds and ETFs and you should be happy.

Frankly, we have been moving a larger part of our account from Vanguard to Fidelity just because they [Fidelity] has a much better interface to buy, sell, and transfer assets. Like someone else said, while our account has more than doubled in the last five years our assets at Vanguard have remained about the same. Almost all our new money goes to Fidelity, unless we want to add to some of the funds.

I don't mean this to knock Vanguard, I love their funds and ETFs but they are way behind other brokerages when it comes to fees and ease of use.

Stats

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Post by Mel Lindauer » Mon Nov 09, 2009 3:36 pm

statsguy wrote:As nisiprius says it is Vanguard policy. I do not understand all the comments about how they support the policy but that is just me.

If you rarely buy or sell anything and rarely have to deal with VBS then Vanguard has excellent funds and ETFs and you should be happy.

Frankly, we have been moving a larger part of our account from Vanguard to Fidelity just because they [Fidelity] has a much better interface to buy, sell, and transfer assets. Like someone else said, while our account has more than doubled in the last five years our assets at Vanguard have remained about the same. Almost all our new money goes to Fidelity, unless we want to add to some of the funds.

I don't mean this to knock Vanguard, I love their funds and ETFs but they are way behind other brokerages when it comes to fees and ease of use.

Stats
I don't mean to imply that I've never had a problem with Vanguard (primarily VBS), but when I consider the big picture and the overall level of service I receive from Vanguard at a very low cost, I elect to stay with them (I was with Fidelity in the past and moved everything to Vanguard years ago).

Different strokes for different folks. Whatever works best for each investor.
Best Regards - Mel | | Semper Fi

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Post by Doc » Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:55 pm

Mel Lindauer wrote:
I don't mean to imply that I've never had a problem with Vanguard (primarily VBS), but when I consider the big picture and the overall level of service I receive from Vanguard at a very low cost, I elect to stay with them (I was with Fidelity in the past and moved everything to Vanguard years ago).
I did too Mel but I think that is the whole point. In recent years there have been many more low cost investment companies come onto the scene or old ones that have significantly improved their service while reducing costs. Meanwhile Vanguards service has not improved even with the "demise" of Pershing and I think some of their costs have even risen somewhat because of lower assets under management. Forcing people to go to Prime MM as their clearing account and waiting until to all was done before folding Investor class into Admiral class for Treasury MM didn't help either.
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Post by Mel Lindauer » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:26 pm

Doc wrote:
Mel Lindauer wrote:
I don't mean to imply that I've never had a problem with Vanguard (primarily VBS), but when I consider the big picture and the overall level of service I receive from Vanguard at a very low cost, I elect to stay with them (I was with Fidelity in the past and moved everything to Vanguard years ago).
I did too Mel but I think that is the whole point. In recent years there have been many more low cost investment companies come onto the scene or old ones that have significantly improved their service while reducing costs. Meanwhile Vanguards service has not improved even with the "demise" of Pershing and I think some of their costs have even risen somewhat because of lower assets under management. Forcing people to go to Prime MM as their clearing account and waiting until to all was done before folding Investor class into Admiral class for Treasury MM didn't help either.
Yes, it's obvious that Fidelity got tired of hearing about Vanguard being the low-cost leader and that led to their even-lower-cost Spartan index funds. However, Vanguard responded with the Admiral share class. In the end, investors at both companies benefited. So competition is good.
Best Regards - Mel | | Semper Fi

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Post by zane » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:50 pm

I think the people who are making mutual fund investments based on intra-day price fluctuations just aren't really Vanguard's core audience.
Okay, that's enough: I'm no longer down on my knees, praying for a crash...

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Post by Mel Lindauer » Mon Nov 09, 2009 8:14 pm

zane wrote:I think the people who are making mutual fund investments based on intra-day price fluctuations just aren't really Vanguard's core audience.
That's one of the main reasons Jack Bogle doesn't like ETFs (inter-day trading, just like individual stocks).
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Post by jpsfranks » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:12 pm

zane wrote:I think the people who are making mutual fund investments based on intra-day price fluctuations just aren't really Vanguard's core audience.
This has nothing to do with making transactions based on intra-day price fluctuations. Anyone wanting to enter an order somehow informed by the day's activity can just place their order at 3:59 PM. This has everything to do with making an honest error when inputting a transaction and wanting to correct it.

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Post by joe8d » Mon Nov 09, 2009 9:55 pm

After having made a mistake once doing a VG online transaction and finding out a minute later VG would not allow me to correct it,I have done all future transactions by phone.I always tell them that I am using the more costly phone method because of VG's policy. BTW, TRP allows transaction cancellations prior to 4 PM on the day you make them..
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Post by Prokofiev » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:19 pm

joe8d wrote:After having made a mistake once doing a VG online transaction and finding out a minute later VG would not allow me to correct it,I have done all future transactions by phone.I always tell them that I am using the more costly phone method because of VG's policy. BTW, TRP allows transaction cancellations prior to 4 PM on the day you make them..
I believe any transaction done via the phone cannot be canceled once you receive the confirmation number. It can only be "corrected" if VG should make a mistake on their end - via checking their recording of the phone conversation. But you cannot call back and change your mind, unless they have changed this recently.

All VG transactions online can be corrected. If you type a mistake, look closely at the page, check it and change it. If you don't catch the error, you get a confirmation page that tells you the transaction which you can read and correct, if necessary. If you make 2 mistakes, you can correct them both . . . the next day.
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Post by joe8d » Mon Nov 09, 2009 10:40 pm

I found having the 2nd set of eyes and having them repeating back your info prevents you from making mistakes.
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Post by Doc » Tue Nov 10, 2009 10:30 am

Mel Lindauer wrote:
Doc wrote:
Mel Lindauer wrote:
I don't mean to imply that I've never had a problem with Vanguard (primarily VBS), but when I consider the big picture and the overall level of service I receive from Vanguard at a very low cost, I elect to stay with them (I was with Fidelity in the past and moved everything to Vanguard years ago).
I did too Mel but I think that is the whole point. In recent years there have been many more low cost investment companies come onto the scene or old ones that have significantly improved their service while reducing costs. Meanwhile Vanguards service has not improved even with the "demise" of Pershing and I think some of their costs have even risen somewhat because of lower assets under management. Forcing people to go to Prime MM as their clearing account and waiting until to all was done before folding Investor class into Admiral class for Treasury MM didn't help either.
Yes, it's obvious that Fidelity got tired of hearing about Vanguard being the low-cost leader and that led to their even-lower-cost Spartan index funds. However, Vanguard responded with the Admiral share class. In the end, investors at both companies benefited. So competition is good.
Mel, I think you are missing the point here. Once upon a time you could get low cost at Vanguard and good service at other firms. Competition from Vanguard has force down the cost at many places. Now you can get good service and low cost at other firms and you can still get low cost at Vanguard. Vanguard's sub standard service continues. As more people become aware that Vanguard has not kept up with IT improvements in the industry they will lose market share and therefore lose the economies of scale that have kept their costs low. If the continues they will eventually have inferior service but also inferior costs.

The number and popularity of threads that discuss Vanguard's sub standard service is increasing. More people are becoming aware. Even "Diehards" are beginning to recognize the situation. I hope Vanguard wakes up before it is too late.
A scientist looks for THE answer to a problem, an engineer looks for AN answer and lawyers ONLY have opinions. Investing is not a science.

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Post by Mel Lindauer » Tue Nov 10, 2009 11:01 am

Doc wrote:The number and popularity of threads that discuss Vanguard's sub standard service is increasing. More people are becoming aware. Even "Diehards" are beginning to recognize the situation. I hope Vanguard wakes up before it is too late.
I hope so too, Doc.
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