Death of 'Soul of Capitalism": Bogle, Faber, Moore

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mathu1968
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Death of 'Soul of Capitalism": Bogle, Faber, Moore

Post by mathu1968 »

Here is a great article that references John Bogle. It refers to his book The battle for the soul of capitalism, along with other writers. Hopefully we can carry Jack's reforming spirit forward.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/story/ ... 41EEE671D2
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nisiprius
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Post by nisiprius »

Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.

Or then again maybe not.

Who knows? When I graduated from high school we figured nuclear war was inevitable, and we'd all just read Hamlet and believed "The time is out of joint; O cursed spite, That ever I was born to set it right!" Just after I graduated from college, under the impact of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King, the Chicago 7 trial, etc. etc. I thought we were on the brink of revolution.

I thought Y2K would be a big deal. Not apocalyptic, but very bad and something I'd be telling my grandchildren.

"Nobody's planning for a 'Black Swan'?" Of course not; if you could plan for it, it wouldn't be a "Black Swan."

I've often thought the End Of The World As We Know It was coming, but it has always reflected The State of My Mind more than the state of the world.

Some say the world will end in fire, some day in ice, personally I'll put my money on plague. (Which reminds me: where do I go for my H1N1 shot?)

Returning to my high school days,
in A Tale of Two Cities, Charles Dickens wrote:It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way--in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
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theac
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Post by theac »

According to the Mayans (and others) the world is supposed to end on 12-21-2012. I'm looking forward to that date (just out of curiosity) to see if they really knew anything (and what EXACTLY could be meant by "the end"). Could just mean some cataclysmic event, and not a total end...who knows.

I think the History Channel (or maybe National Geographic) will be having a show about this on Nov 1st.

I know I'll still be investing for the long term (he he). But I remember years ago that large group of people who were told the world was going to end on a certain day, so they sold all their belongings ahead of time, gave it to their church, and as they stood on the beach waiting, nothing happened. I would have felt pretty dumb about then :shock:

But how could someone not reason that if the world is ending, why bother to sell anything, or give anything to anyone, since it would be ending for everybody anyway? :lol:
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Post by neverknow »

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Last edited by neverknow on Sun Jan 16, 2011 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by InvestingMom »

nisiprius wrote:Howl, ye shepherds, and cry; and wallow yourselves in the ashes, ye principal of the flock: for the days of your slaughter and of your dispersions are accomplished; and ye shall fall like a pleasant vessel.

Or then again maybe not.

Who knows? When I graduated from high school we figured nuclear war was inevitable, and we'd all just read Hamlet and believed "The time is out of joint; O cursed spite, That ever I was born to set it right!" Just after I graduated from college, under the impact of the assassination of John F. Kennedy, Robert Kennedy, and Martin Luther King, the Chicago 7 trial, etc. etc. I thought we were on the brink of revolution.

I thought Y2K would be a big deal. Not apocalyptic, but very bad and something I'd be telling my grandchildren.

"Nobody's planning for a 'Black Swan'?" Of course not; if you could plan for it, it wouldn't be a "Black Swan."

I've often thought the End Of The World As We Know It was coming, but it has always reflected The State of My Mind more than the state of the world.

Some say the world will end in fire, some day in ice, personally I'll put my money on plague. (Which reminds me: where do I go for my H1N1 shot?)

Returning to my high school days,
in A Tale of Two Cities, Charles Dickens wrote:It was the best of times, it was the worst of times, it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness, it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity, it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness, it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair, we had everything before us, we had nothing before us, we were all going direct to Heaven, we were all going direct the other way--in short, the period was so far like the present period, that some of its noisiest authorities insisted on its being received, for good or for evil, in the superlative degree of comparison only.
Thanks Nisiprius. That was funny. Love the Dickens quote too.

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Post by chaz »

IMO there never was a soul of capitalism - only greed.
Chaz | | “Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons." Woody Allen | | http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
allsop
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Post by allsop »

chaz wrote:IMO there never was a soul of capitalism - only greed.
Greedy souls exists, on the premise that souls exists in the first place.
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Post by chaz »

allsop wrote:
chaz wrote:IMO there never was a soul of capitalism - only greed.
Greedy souls exists, on the premise that souls exists in the first place.
souls exist but not in capitalism.
Chaz | | “Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons." Woody Allen | | http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
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rcshouldis
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Post by rcshouldis »

theac wrote:
I know I'll still be investing for the long term (he he). But I remember years ago that large group of people who were told the world was going to end on a certain day, so they sold all their belongings ahead of time, gave it to their church, and as they stood on the beach waiting, nothing happened. I would have felt pretty dumb about then :shock:

But how could someone not reason that if the world is ending, why bother to sell anything, or give anything to anyone, since it would be ending for everybody anyway? :lol:
The church told them that they would be rewarded in heaven for their earthly giving and was only too happy to accept their gifts. hummm! I wonder if the church financially supported these people ( those who had sold everything and given the proceeds to the church) when it became clear that the end had not come after all. (No, I think that today's churches would have bought new buildings, gave the pastors a raise, and installed new video/surround sound projector systems. ) Tough luck people.
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Post by allsop »

chaz wrote:
allsop wrote:
chaz wrote:IMO there never was a soul of capitalism - only greed.
Greedy souls exists, on the premise that souls exists in the first place.
souls exist but not in capitalism.
We may disagree on the premise, but perhaps "soulless" adequately describe your intent?
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Bogle

Post by pkcrafter »

I read Bogle's book when it first came out and it had a lasting impact. It is a serious look at serious problems. So, I don't take what Bogle said lightly, especially when four years later (now) the things he warned about are much more clearly evident. No one has stepped up to change anything. At the least, a good case could be made that investors are at higher risk from a playing field that is not efficient or even fair. This risk is not factored in. The only defense against it is lower exposure to equities.

When W. Edwards Demming was teaching the Japanese how to improve quality of goods and services in the 1960s, Japanese executives were making 7x what the workers were. In the U.S. at that time, executives were making 40x what U.S. workers were making. And that gap was criticized. Now the gap is 500x. There has to be consequences to what is happening in corporate America and investment America if things are not changed.


Paul
When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.
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nisiprius
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Re: Bogle

Post by nisiprius »

pkcrafter wrote:When W. Edwards Demming was teaching the Japanese how to improve quality of goods and services in the 1960s, Japanese executives were making 7x what the workers were. In the U.S. at that time, executives were making 40x what U.S. workers were making. And that gap was criticized. Now the gap is 500x. There has to be consequences to what is happening in corporate America and investment America if things are not changed.
Perhaps the workers are being stepped on by the sole of capitalism. :wink:
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
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Post by pkcrafter »

Nisiprius, Oh you are in rare form today. :D

Paul
When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.
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mathu1968
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Re: Bogle

Post by mathu1968 »

nisiprius wrote:
pkcrafter wrote:When W. Edwards Demming was teaching the Japanese how to improve quality of goods and services in the 1960s, Japanese executives were making 7x what the workers were. In the U.S. at that time, executives were making 40x what U.S. workers were making. And that gap was criticized. Now the gap is 500x. There has to be consequences to what is happening in corporate America and investment America if things are not changed.
Perhaps the workers are being stepped on by the sole of capitalism. :wink:
Im my opinion, many are being stepped upon by the "sole of corporatism" rather than capitalism.
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Re: Bogle

Post by bottlecap »

pkcrafter wrote:No one has stepped up to change anything.
Sure someone has - the United States Congress. They've tackled this problem several times over the last thirty years and have led us directly to the present situation.

Capitalism is simply a system in which the players, people, are permitted to bargain amongst themselves freely. People haven't changed - the only things that have changed are our laws. I'm guessing whatever the politicians come up with next will have unintended consequences that we will again blame on the "sole" of capitalism.
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Re: Bogle

Post by snowman9000 »

bottlecap wrote:
pkcrafter wrote:No one has stepped up to change anything.
Sure someone has - the United States Congress. They've tackled this problem several times over the last thirty years and have led us directly to the present situation.

Capitalism is simply a system in which the players, people, are permitted to bargain amongst themselves freely. People haven't changed - the only things that have changed are our laws. I'm guessing whatever the politicians come up with next will have unintended consequences that we will again blame on the "sole" of capitalism.
Excellent post.
Capitalism is the most effective system of allocating scarce resources. We have a special-interest-dominated mixed economy in the US and most of the world today. It has a capitalist structure but with a lot of distortions and favoritism.

Anyone who wants to eliminate self-interest in economic transactions is just dreaming. It's been tried, it failed and led to misery.
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Re: Death of 'Soul of Capitalism": Bogle, Faber, Moore

Post by Taylor Larimore »

mathu1968 wrote:Here is a great article that references John Bogle. It refers to his book The battle for the soul of capitalism, along with other writers. Hopefully we can carry Jack's reforming spirit forward.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/story/ ... 41EEE671D2
Hi Matt:

I also did a review of Jack's book and pulled out what I thought were important excerpts. You can read them here:

A Gem-"The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism"
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
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Post by Beezthree »

"According to the Mayans (and others) the world is supposed to end on 12-21-2012."


not true. they just predicted a new age/awakening or complete change of consciousness. other people have presumed this meant the end of the world.
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mathu1968
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Re: Death of 'Soul of Capitalism": Bogle, Faber, Moore

Post by mathu1968 »

Taylor Larimore wrote:
mathu1968 wrote:Here is a great article that references John Bogle. It refers to his book The battle for the soul of capitalism, along with other writers. Hopefully we can carry Jack's reforming spirit forward.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/story/ ... 41EEE671D2
Hi Matt:

I also did a review of Jack's book and pulled out what I thought were important excerpts. You can read them here:

A Gem-"The Battle for the Soul of Capitalism"
Thanks. A lot of good insights for reform on every level.
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