Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Out of blue got this e-mail from Treasury Direct:
Dear TreasuryDirect Customer,
We noticed that you still have undelivered gift bonds in your gift box. Please deliver those gifts to the recipient’s account as soon as possible. If your gift recipient does not have a TreasuryDirect account, remind them to set one up so you can deliver your gift.
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I bought some ibonds in the gift box this April because I already exceeded the purchase limit this year (and so did the recipient). I couldn't deliver these this year anyway? Did anyone else get this e-mail? What prompt the Treasury direct to send such reminder?
Dear TreasuryDirect Customer,
We noticed that you still have undelivered gift bonds in your gift box. Please deliver those gifts to the recipient’s account as soon as possible. If your gift recipient does not have a TreasuryDirect account, remind them to set one up so you can deliver your gift.
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I bought some ibonds in the gift box this April because I already exceeded the purchase limit this year (and so did the recipient). I couldn't deliver these this year anyway? Did anyone else get this e-mail? What prompt the Treasury direct to send such reminder?
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I just got the same email and came to post about the "as soon as possible" aspect. What if I don't deliver "as soon as possible"?
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I also received the email. I was instantly suspicious. While it is from a .gov address it doesn’t feel right. And your bonds can sit in the gift box until they mature - u are under no time constraint to deliver. From Treasury Direct:
“The Gift Box displays all securities you've currently registered as gifts. You may select a specific security to view the details. You may hold securities in your Gift Box until you're ready to deliver them to the intended recipient(s).”
“The Gift Box displays all securities you've currently registered as gifts. You may select a specific security to view the details. You may hold securities in your Gift Box until you're ready to deliver them to the intended recipient(s).”
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I too received the same email today. Not sure if it is a phishing attempt or not but I never use any links on an email. I did just check my gift box directly on the TD site and all looks well. I'm planning to ignore as there is no time limit that I'm aware of for how long an individual can keep one in their gift box.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Both me and DW received the same emails. We are planning on delivering in January next year, so hopefully that qualifies as “soon as possible”. We bought max amount of IBonds at the beginning of 2024, so it would be against the rules to deliver them any sooner.
I guess TD is trying to discourage gift box purchases to get around individual purchase limits.
I guess TD is trying to discourage gift box purchases to get around individual purchase limits.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I received the same message as well. We each have 10k in gifts that we haven't delivered to one another yet, and I was planning on us buying 2 more gifts before the end of the month. I am now hesitant to do that given the tone of TD's email.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Sounds like it's time to eschew Treasury Direct. They are becoming more unstable and unreliable. The I-Bond party is over. I'm going to start dumping my TD holdings next year in such a way so not to mess-up my projected income which health care premium subsidies are based. It may take a couple of years.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Huh, I checked both the address for my account and the one for DH's and we have no so such notice.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I think it's just an automated notice, for people who might actually have forgotten. If you know what you're doing, ignore it.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
We got the same notices in our accounts and had been planning on delivering some this year anyway, so we did it today just to get it out of the way - not because of the "as soon as possible" bit. Of course we didn't use any of the links in the email to access our accounts (safety first). Note that once they were delivered, they had individual registrations so we had to switch them to joint.
Now I just need to get around to sending in our paper I bonds.
Now I just need to get around to sending in our paper I bonds.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
"The US Treasury Bureau of the Fiscal Service is making customers with undelivered gift bonds aware that they should deliver their gifts. Recipients are the sole legal owners of gift bonds registered in their name."
https://treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/email-gifts/
https://treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/email-gifts/
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
My wife got the email but I did not. We both have accounts and each of us has $30K in our gift boxes for the other, and we will each deliver $10K to the other in January. The TreasuryDirect annual limit precludes us from delivering any more than that before 2026. Those are the rules that they made. If they want us to deliver sooner, then they need to increase the limit.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
My understanding is that TreasuryDirect has not previously enforced any gift delivery limits on savings bonds if the recipient did not (and will not) purchase any of those savings bond types for themselves during that calendar year.rab wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 5:20 pm My wife got the email but I did not. We both have accounts and each of us has $30K in our gift boxes for the other, and we will each deliver $10K to the other in January. The TreasuryDirect annual limit precludes us from delivering any more than that before 2026. Those are the rules that they made. If they want us to deliver sooner, then they need to increase the limit.
I don’t know if this is intentional or not, or if any limits would be imposed for gift deliveries in the future if the recipient does not purchase any savings bonds that year.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Wasn't there some debate on the rules earlier this year, with some arguing that you actually can deliver gifts in excess of the annual purchase limit? This attempt by TD could be seen as supportive of that take
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I found this post from last December, and the subsequent ones have various opinions and references on this issue: viewtopic.php?p=7597110#p7597110
I don’t know if there have been more recent developments.
There are reasonable readings of the rules that suggest this may not be allowed. There didn’t seem to be any enforcement if the recipient did not purchase any themselves.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Yes, there are some who believe that unlimited gift delivery is permitted, but I was never convinced. To each his own.Lyrrad wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:27 pmI found this post from last December, and the subsequent ones have various opinions and references on this issue: viewtopic.php?p=7597110#p7597110
I don’t know if there have been more recent developments.
There are reasonable readings of the rules that suggest this may not be allowed. There didn’t seem to be any enforcement if the recipient did not purchase any themselves.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Reading over that thread, it seems like a situation where it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is
Basically they're implying that the $10,000 limit can cause receiving a gift to block a purchase in the same year, but that receiving a gift bond can never be blocked (via the annual limit) by receiving another gift.
("Block" meaning legally, since there are no technological limits in place to enforce them IIRC)
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Count me in the "not received the email" pile. Will keep an eye out and stall till January if I get one.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I've done it (purchased 10k+been delivered 10k in the same year). No mean email, no issues. Family member too. Both only did it once though.Makefile wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:41 pmReading over that thread, it seems like a situation where it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is
Basically they're implying that the $10,000 limit can cause receiving a gift to block a purchase in the same year, but that receiving a gift bond can never be blocked (via the annual limit) by receiving another gift.
("Block" meaning legally, since there are no technological limits in place to enforce them IIRC)
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Skepticism is better than carelessness, but I'm frequently amused at the very specific communications sent to multiple people with rather unique circumstances that people will automatically assume are a scam or phishing.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Just logistically, if B gave A $10k in gift bonds this year, how would C know that A's limit had been reached? TD has no mechanism to prevent C from delivering the gift to A which belonged to A when it was registered.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I guess I don't consider being able to do it as equivalent to it being permitted under the rules. It seems like saying that it is legal to exceed the speed limit because one did so but did not receive a speeding ticket. TD 's ability to monitor such things seems to be pretty limited. Also, if delivery of more than $10K in gifts per year is allowed, why wouldn't TD just clearly state that?nalor511 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 9:33 pmI've done it (purchased 10k+been delivered 10k in the same year). No mean email, no issues. Family member too. Both only did it once though.Makefile wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 8:41 pm
Reading over that thread, it seems like a situation where it depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is
Basically they're implying that the $10,000 limit can cause receiving a gift to block a purchase in the same year, but that receiving a gift bond can never be blocked (via the annual limit) by receiving another gift.
("Block" meaning legally, since there are no technological limits in place to enforce them IIRC)
Last edited by rab on Fri Oct 18, 2024 8:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
It's as if all of the posts after yours are completely ignoring the link you posted.OnlineAdventurer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 5:12 pm "The US Treasury Bureau of the Fiscal Service is making customers with undelivered gift bonds aware that they should deliver their gifts. Recipients are the sole legal owners of gift bonds registered in their name."
https://treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/email-gifts/
Ceers...
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Where does that link clarify the meaning of "as soon as possible" (bolded by the OP)?dcabler wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 6:52 amIt's as if all of the posts after yours are completely ignoring the link you posted.OnlineAdventurer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 5:12 pm "The US Treasury Bureau of the Fiscal Service is making customers with undelivered gift bonds aware that they should deliver their gifts. Recipients are the sole legal owners of gift bonds registered in their name."
https://treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/email-gifts/
Ceers...
Last edited by rab on Fri Oct 18, 2024 7:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
It's not ignoring to ask why they are suddenly insisting on this when elsewhere they say you can keep the bonds in your gift box, and, further, this would seem to result in obvious violations of the annual limit.dcabler wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 6:52 amIt's as if all of the posts after yours are completely ignoring the link you posted.OnlineAdventurer wrote: ↑Thu Oct 17, 2024 5:12 pm "The US Treasury Bureau of the Fiscal Service is making customers with undelivered gift bonds aware that they should deliver their gifts. Recipients are the sole legal owners of gift bonds registered in their name."
https://treasurydirect.gov/indiv/research/email-gifts/
Ceers...
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Except that's not what the link says. It gives no required timeframe and appears to only be a reminder that this eventually needs to be done.toddthebod wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 8:08 amIt's not ignoring to ask why they are suddenly insisting on this when elsewhere they say you can keep the bonds in your gift box, and, further, this would seem to result in obvious violations of the annual limit.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I called and talked with a Treasury Direct representative. I asked specifically if they wanted us to deliver the gifts immediately even if the recipient has met their annual limit. She said, "We don't have any information on that at this time because they just released the statement yesterday. Call back in a couple weeks to a month." Sounds like the upper echelon hasn't communicated to the underlings what the intent of the statement is. She was a nice lady......even if not terribly helpful. Surprisingly, I didn't have to wait on hold.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I really hope that this isn't a shot across the bow and that they're doing this in anticipation of removing the gift box feature just like they recently did with the purchase via tax refunds.Agitated_Analyst wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 9:54 am I called and talked with a Treasury Direct representative. I asked specifically if they wanted us to deliver the gifts immediately even if the recipient has met their annual limit. She said, "We don't have any information on that at this time because they just released the statement yesterday. Call back in a couple weeks to a month." Sounds like the upper echelon hasn't communicated to the underlings what the intent of the statement is. She was a nice lady......even if not terribly helpful. Surprisingly, I didn't have to wait on hold.
"Repeating a thing doesn't improve it." Quote from Inman, as played by Jude Law, in the movie "Cold Mountain"
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I know. It's concerning. I would take it a step further. I wonder if they'll decide to eliminate I-bonds all together. Does anyone know if eliminating I-bonds would require an act of Congress? Or can the Treasury end the program at any time? If they're wanting to end the I-bond program, the outstanding gifts cause a problem.dcabler wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 9:56 amI really hope that this isn't a shot across the bow and that they're doing this in anticipation of removing the gift box feature just like they recently did with the purchase via tax refunds.Agitated_Analyst wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 9:54 am I called and talked with a Treasury Direct representative. I asked specifically if they wanted us to deliver the gifts immediately even if the recipient has met their annual limit. She said, "We don't have any information on that at this time because they just released the statement yesterday. Call back in a couple weeks to a month." Sounds like the upper echelon hasn't communicated to the underlings what the intent of the statement is. She was a nice lady......even if not terribly helpful. Surprisingly, I didn't have to wait on hold.
"Feeling like a victim is a perfectly disastrous way to go through life." - Charlie Munger
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Treasury could unilaterally make changes to the savings bond program without an act of Congress, as the legislative authority for the savings bond program does not prescribe the specific kinds of savings bonds that should be offered, but leaves Treasury broad discretion to determine almost all aspects of savings bonds.
I also know that Treasury Direct is actively considering changes to the gift bond program. They have solicited feedback multiple times from gift bond givers through a 3rd party user-experience testing service over the past several months.
Those who can read between the lines have already discovered that there is no way for Treasury to enforce the annual limit when gifts are involved, and I don't really see how they could do so without revealing gift recipient's financial information to third parties.
Think about it: rich maternal grandparents A buy $10,000 I bonds for grandchild X. Independently, rich paternal grandparents B buy $10,000 I bonds for grandchild X. Independenly, grandchild X opens a TD account and wants to buy $10,000 I bonds. What should happen? I don't think anyone at Treasury actually has an answer. Should X be prevented from buying bonds because A or B have already purchased gifts for them? Why? How would such a restraint even be permissible? Should B be prevented from buying gift bonds for X because A has already done so? If Treasury informs B that they cannot buy gift bonds for X (because either A has already done so, or X has already self-purchased), this is effectively disclosing that X has $10k in assets. Note that B could literally be anyone who has X's social security number.
The gift program's workings are really only defined in a de facto manner of what is actually possible at the current time. I would consider them subject to change at any time with little to no warning.
I also know that Treasury Direct is actively considering changes to the gift bond program. They have solicited feedback multiple times from gift bond givers through a 3rd party user-experience testing service over the past several months.
Those who can read between the lines have already discovered that there is no way for Treasury to enforce the annual limit when gifts are involved, and I don't really see how they could do so without revealing gift recipient's financial information to third parties.
Think about it: rich maternal grandparents A buy $10,000 I bonds for grandchild X. Independently, rich paternal grandparents B buy $10,000 I bonds for grandchild X. Independenly, grandchild X opens a TD account and wants to buy $10,000 I bonds. What should happen? I don't think anyone at Treasury actually has an answer. Should X be prevented from buying bonds because A or B have already purchased gifts for them? Why? How would such a restraint even be permissible? Should B be prevented from buying gift bonds for X because A has already done so? If Treasury informs B that they cannot buy gift bonds for X (because either A has already done so, or X has already self-purchased), this is effectively disclosing that X has $10k in assets. Note that B could literally be anyone who has X's social security number.
The gift program's workings are really only defined in a de facto manner of what is actually possible at the current time. I would consider them subject to change at any time with little to no warning.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
What conceivable actions could TD take if a couple decided to deliver several years worth of gifts to each other?
A nasty letter?
Revoking the delivery?
Account closure / cashing out?
I'm starting to feel somewhat foolish holding anything in our gift boxes.
A nasty letter?
Revoking the delivery?
Account closure / cashing out?
I'm starting to feel somewhat foolish holding anything in our gift boxes.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I'm wondering about it too. In our case my wife and I purchased 30K bonds each in late 2023 to give each other as gifts in 2024 (done), 2025, and 2026. I guess they can always force us to gift the bonds, then say these are excess purchases exceeding annual limits and subject us to forced redemption of the bonds. In which case - I'll live with it.
It does not make sense to me that they're planning to cancel the I bond program. Issuing a billion dollars debt as TIPS is going to cost the Treasury more in interest (determined by the market at auction, then by the CPI, which the Treasury does not control) than a billion dollars of I bonds (where the Treasury has some discretion as to what interest rate to pay).
It does not make sense to me that they're planning to cancel the I bond program. Issuing a billion dollars debt as TIPS is going to cost the Treasury more in interest (determined by the market at auction, then by the CPI, which the Treasury does not control) than a billion dollars of I bonds (where the Treasury has some discretion as to what interest rate to pay).
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
There's no reason to feel foolish. They still accrue interest in the gift box the same as if delivered. You only lose out if you want to redeem all of themPA_Boglehead wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 11:54 am I'm starting to feel somewhat foolish holding anything in our gift boxes.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
MBB_Boy wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 1:47 pmThere's no reason to feel foolish. They still accrue interest in the gift box the same as if delivered. You only lose out if you want to redeem all of themPA_Boglehead wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 11:54 am I'm starting to feel somewhat foolish holding anything in our gift boxes.
Sorry, I meant in terms of them being in their currently "undelivered" state.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
One could see this email as an open invitation to deliver I Bonds regardless of the amount already delivered. (I've already delivered my $10,000 this year)
There's a perfect excuse if they flag it: "Hey, I got your email telling me to deliver them ASAP. What did you expect me to do?"
There's a perfect excuse if they flag it: "Hey, I got your email telling me to deliver them ASAP. What did you expect me to do?"
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
The Treasury has stopped sales of other series before. For example, series HH bonds stopped being issued in 2004.Agitated_Analyst wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 10:10 am I know. It's concerning. I would take it a step further. I wonder if they'll decide to eliminate I-bonds all together. Does anyone know if eliminating I-bonds would require an act of Congress? Or can the Treasury end the program at any time? If they're wanting to end the I-bond program, the outstanding gifts cause a problem.
For whatever reason the Treasury had a huge shift in philosophy in savings bonds between the late 1990s and early 2000s. They created a website allowing you to buy the paper bonds online (by credit card, even), then several years later they terminated all marketing for the program including that site, and a bit after that, stopped sales of paper bonds aside from the tax refund trick. I can't cite it since TreasuryDirect redesigned their website, but I used to be able to use the spreadsheets on there to show that savings bond issuance declined 95% between 2005 and 2019. I suspect that the "rules" behind electronic savings bonds, including the gift box, were incredibly esoteric and never battle-tested before the early 2020s burst of inflation. I think the Treasury sees the program as a nuisance at this point. Shrug.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
It’s probably a blast email for people who did not creatively max out their I bond allocation and do reciprocal gifting with a ten year strategy to lawful exceed the annual limit.
It’s probably a small percentage of I bond investors who, like Bogleheads, are so acutely familiar with gifting mechanics that they recognize the tripwire of giving to a recipient who himself maxed out his or her annual allocation.
Their idea is probably to remind novice, seasonal or forgetful investors to deliver the gift, now that the era of 9 percent interest rates is over.
I think it is not an invitation to exceed the gifting / investing limit.
It’s probably a small percentage of I bond investors who, like Bogleheads, are so acutely familiar with gifting mechanics that they recognize the tripwire of giving to a recipient who himself maxed out his or her annual allocation.
Their idea is probably to remind novice, seasonal or forgetful investors to deliver the gift, now that the era of 9 percent interest rates is over.
I think it is not an invitation to exceed the gifting / investing limit.
Last edited by AnnetteLouisan on Fri Oct 18, 2024 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Jaylat wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 5:08 pm One could see this email as an open invitation to deliver I Bonds regardless of the amount already delivered. (I've already delivered my $10,000 this year)
There's a perfect excuse if they flag it: "Hey, I got your email telling me to deliver them ASAP. What did you expect me to do?"
A year or two ago (or three?), there was an active discussion here about whether the $10k per year in I Bonds per person was in fact applicable to GIFTING.
This came up in part due to the question of if you gift $10k In I bonds to person A, what if they already bought one themselves.
I don't remember if there was any consensus or if anyone found a truly definitive ansswer as to whether gifts had the $10k per recipient per year limit.
This email from TD suggests that in fact, "gifting" is not counted in the annual per person limit.
And if that is generally known/understood... lots of people could just start gifting to each other, however much they wished.
Maybe this is the beginning of the end of the I Bonds?
RM
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Perhaps a penalty of a certain amount of interest. Find out first.PA_Boglehead wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 11:54 am What conceivable actions could TD take if a couple decided to deliver several years worth of gifts to each other?
A nasty letter?
Revoking the delivery?
Account closure / cashing out?
I'm starting to feel somewhat foolish holding anything in our gift boxes.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
The regulations (31 CFR 363.52) say,AnnetteLouisan wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 6:38 pmPerhaps a penalty of a certain amount of interest. Find out first.PA_Boglehead wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 11:54 am What conceivable actions could TD take if a couple decided to deliver several years worth of gifts to each other?
A nasty letter?
Revoking the delivery?
Account closure / cashing out?
I'm starting to feel somewhat foolish holding anything in our gift boxes.
(d) We reserve the right to take any action we deem necessary to adjust the excess, including the right to remove the excess bonds from your TreasuryDirect account and refund the payment price to your bank account of record using the ACH method of payment.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
The regulations and the TreasuryDirect FAQ are quite clear that gifts count toward the limit, but that they are not counted in the purchaser's limit, and are only included in the recipient's limit for the year in which they are delivered (not purchased).ResearchMed wrote: ↑Fri Oct 18, 2024 6:26 pm A year or two ago (or three?), there was an active discussion here about whether the $10k per year in I Bonds per person was in fact applicable to GIFTING.
This came up in part due to the question of if you gift $10k In I bonds to person A, what if they already bought one themselves.
I don't remember if there was any consensus or if anyone found a truly definitive ansswer as to whether gifts had the $10k per recipient per year limit.
This email from TD suggests that in fact, "gifting" is not counted in the annual per person limit.
And if that is generally known/understood... lots of people could just start gifting to each other, however much they wished.
Maybe this is the beginning of the end of the I Bonds?
RM
What has been conjectured is that received gifts don't count against each other for the purposes of the limit, i.e., so long as the recipient buys $0 in bonds for themselves for a calendar year, they can receive an unlimited amount in gifts without running afoul of the regulations.
As a formula, the debate seems to be over whether the constraint is:
Code: Select all
ReceivedGiftBonds + PurchasedBonds < 10000
Code: Select all
Min(10000, ReceivedGiftBonds) + PurchasedBonds < 10000
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Let's approach this scientifically, meaning formulate a hypothesis given what we know, then test that hypothesis empirically with experiments.
Introduction
The TD site on gifts does not mention limits, and only mentions a minimum amount of time before delivery of a gift (5 days).
The TD site on limits says the following:
Hypotheses
H1, H2, and H3b are confirmed. H3a is unconfirmed. Thus, all empirical evidence suggests that there is no limit on the amount of gifts an individual can receive in the same year. However, receiving gifts may reduce the recipient's ability to purchase bonds themselves.
Comment
Having worked in technology, government, and with government technology (such as it is), I can almost guarantee that the folks who dreamt up the gift policies 1) didn't thoroughly think through or formalize the interactions or edge cases around limits, and 2) didn't communicate them in sufficient detail to the folks who would need to implement the code to enforce the policies and limits. The entire system was probably designed by one contractor, and is maintained by a different contractor, and there may not be a way to enforce the policies even if they were clearly defined.
Introduction
The TD site on gifts does not mention limits, and only mentions a minimum amount of time before delivery of a gift (5 days).
The TD site on limits says the following:
31 CFR §§ 363.95 - 363.101 which discusses gifts in Treasury Direct says nothing about limits on the amount you can purchase or deliver as gifts for a recipient. It does say "You may deliver the bond upon purchase, or you may hold the bond in your TreasuryDirect ® account until you are ready to deliver the bond to the owner named on the gift bond.""How much can one person or entity own in savings bonds? There is no limit on the total amount that any person or entity can own in savings bonds."
"How much can I spend each year on savings bonds? We count the limits by the Social Security Number of the first person named on the bond... A given Social Security Number or Employer Identification Number can buy up to these amounts in savings bonds each calendar year: ... $10,000 in electronic I bonds ... Gift bonds count toward the limit of the recipient, not the giver."
"What about bonds I give as gifts? ... The gift belongs to the person to whom you give the bond. Therefore, the amount counts in that person's limit, not in your limit. The gift counts for that person's limit in the year in which they get the bond."
Hypotheses
- H1. "Limit" refers to a purchase limit of bonds by an individual for themselves. Setting aside entity accounts, I hypothesize that an individual can only purchase maximum $10k in electronic I bonds in a year.
- H2. "Limit" does not apply to amounts purchased as gifts by others. That is, others may purchase any amount, including amounts exceeding $10k as gifts, even for the same individual.
- H3. "Limit" only applies in the year a gift bond is delivered. Furthermore, because "limit" is a purchase limit for an individual, delivering a gift bond should have the following effects:
- H3a. If the recipient has not already purchased bonds for themselves, the amount they can purchase will be reduced by the amount of gifts they have received.
- H3b. If the recipient has already purchased bonds for themselves, they can receive gifts beyond the $10k purchase limit. This is because it is a purchase limit, and receiving a gift bond only affects the individual's ability to purchase additional bonds for themselves, not to receive additional gifts.
- H1. We know that TD does flag purchases in excess of $10k, thus H1 is confirmed. Note that in that thread, the flagging consisted of an e-mail and the excess was permitted to remain.
- H2. I know from direct experience, as do many others here, that it is possible to purchase gifts in multiples of the $10k limit for a single individual in the same year.
- H3a. I have not confirmed this and I'm not aware of anyone else who has.
- H3b. I know from direct experience that it is possible to deliver gifts beyond the $10k purchase limit when the recipient has already purchased bonds for themselves.
H1, H2, and H3b are confirmed. H3a is unconfirmed. Thus, all empirical evidence suggests that there is no limit on the amount of gifts an individual can receive in the same year. However, receiving gifts may reduce the recipient's ability to purchase bonds themselves.
Comment
Having worked in technology, government, and with government technology (such as it is), I can almost guarantee that the folks who dreamt up the gift policies 1) didn't thoroughly think through or formalize the interactions or edge cases around limits, and 2) didn't communicate them in sufficient detail to the folks who would need to implement the code to enforce the policies and limits. The entire system was probably designed by one contractor, and is maintained by a different contractor, and there may not be a way to enforce the policies even if they were clearly defined.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Having worked as a software product manager I completely agree with your points highlighted in red. However, as a lawyer (i.e. working on legal software) I am concerned about:langelgjm wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 12:06 am Let's approach this scientifically, meaning formulate a hypothesis given what we know, then test that hypothesis empirically with experiments.
Introduction
The TD site on gifts does not mention limits, and only mentions a minimum amount of time before delivery of a gift (5 days).
The TD site on limits says the following:
31 CFR §§ 363.95 - 363.101 which discusses gifts in Treasury Direct says nothing about limits on the amount you can purchase or deliver as gifts for a recipient. It does say "You may deliver the bond upon purchase, or you may hold the bond in your TreasuryDirect ® account until you are ready to deliver the bond to the owner named on the gift bond.""How much can one person or entity own in savings bonds? There is no limit on the total amount that any person or entity can own in savings bonds."
"How much can I spend each year on savings bonds? We count the limits by the Social Security Number of the first person named on the bond... A given Social Security Number or Employer Identification Number can buy up to these amounts in savings bonds each calendar year: ... $10,000 in electronic I bonds ... Gift bonds count toward the limit of the recipient, not the giver."
"What about bonds I give as gifts? ... The gift belongs to the person to whom you give the bond. Therefore, the amount counts in that person's limit, not in your limit. The gift counts for that person's limit in the year in which they get the bond."
Hypotheses
- H1. "Limit" refers to a purchase limit of bonds by an individual for themselves. Setting aside entity accounts, I hypothesize that an individual can only purchase maximum $10k in electronic I bonds in a year.
- H2. "Limit" does not apply to amounts purchased as gifts by others. That is, others may purchase any amount, including amounts exceeding $10k as gifts, even for the same individual.
- H3. "Limit" only applies in the year a gift bond is delivered. Furthermore, because "limit" is a purchase limit for an individual, delivering a gift bond should have the following effects:
- H3a. If the recipient has not already purchased bonds for themselves, the amount they can purchase will be reduced by the amount of gifts they have received.
Empirical experiments to test the hypotheses
- H3b. If the recipient has already purchased bonds for themselves, they can receive gifts beyond the $10k purchase limit. This is because it is a purchase limit, and receiving a gift bond only affects the individual's ability to purchase additional bonds for themselves, not to receive additional gifts.
- H1. We know that TD does flag purchases in excess of $10k, thus H1 is confirmed. Note that in that thread, the flagging consisted of an e-mail and the excess was permitted to remain.
- H2. I know from direct experience, as do many others here, that it is possible to purchase gifts in multiples of the $10k limit for a single individual in the same year.
- H3a. I have not confirmed this and I'm not aware of anyone else who has.
Conclusion
- H3b. I know from direct experience that it is possible to deliver gifts beyond the $10k purchase limit when the recipient has already purchased bonds for themselves.
H1, H2, and H3b are confirmed. H3a is unconfirmed. Thus, all empirical evidence suggests that there is no limit on the amount of gifts an individual can receive in the same year. However, receiving gifts may reduce the recipient's ability to purchase bonds themselves.
Comment
Having worked in technology, government, and with government technology (such as it is), I can almost guarantee that the folks who dreamt up the gift policies 1) didn't thoroughly think through or formalize the interactions or edge cases around limits, and 2) didn't communicate them in sufficient detail to the folks who would need to implement the code to enforce the policies and limits. The entire system was probably designed by one contractor, and is maintained by a different contractor, and there may not be a way to enforce the policies even if they were clearly defined.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/363.52
§ 363.52 What is the principal amount of book-entry Series EE and Series I savings bonds that I may acquire in one year?
(a) The principal amount of book-entry savings bonds that you may acquire in any calendar year is limited to $10,000 for Series EE savings bonds and $10,000 for Series I savings bonds.
(b) Bonds purchased or transferred as gifts will be included in the computation of this limit for the account of the recipient for the year in which the bonds are delivered to the recipient.
(c) Bonds purchased as gifts or in a fiduciary capacity are not included in the computation for the purchaser. Bonds received due to the death of the registered owner are not included in the computation for the recipient.
(d) We reserve the right to take any action we deem necessary to adjust the excess, including the right to remove the excess bonds from your TreasuryDirect account and refund the payment price to your bank account of record using the ACH method of payment.
The way I read the regulation comes down to what "acquire" means. It doesn't say purchase and subsection (b) indicates to me that acquire means purchased or as a recipient of transferred gifts.
Of course your point about edge cases from a software perspective makes sense and likely difficult for treasury to enforce, but if someone at treasury wanted to enforce the limits on what can be acquired, the regulations support it.
I have a bunch of ibonds siting in the Gift box and will be buying another $20k before the end of October. I will be waiting to deliver these over the next 6 plus years unless treasury publishes something else to change the cited regulation (especially subsection d). I am betting these 1.3% fixed rate bonds will be the high for awhile but, of course, don't know.
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I was planning on using the gift box method to purchase my 2027 I-bonds before the end of October. However, after seeing this notice and talking with the TD representative, I only feel comfortable going out a year (or a little more). I purchased my 2026 I-bonds the day before the notice came out. It's a shame because I would have liked to lock in another year of the 1.30% rate. Oh well.
"Feeling like a victim is a perfectly disastrous way to go through life." - Charlie Munger
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Interesting discussion and conjecture. I will be following closely.
We are in a situation where grandparents wanted to use Series I Savings bonds as a means for funding future higher education costs for a grandchild. I am aware that the tax-free nature for educational costs is subject to certain stipulations which may not be met in this scenario, but that's a topic for a future discussion. In any case, it was decided that the bonds be purchased in advance to using the gift box method to maximize the earning potential, the value at eventual redemption, and also so that the 5-year early-redemption penalty would have already expired by the time they are needed. Enough bonds were purchased to cover quite a few years at the maximum. Several have already been gifted at one $10,000 bond per year.
The original plan was to continue disbursing at one electronic bond per year until fully depleted, but there is still nearly a decade to go on that schedule. The gift bonds are in MY account because purely based on age, I am more likely than the grandparents to be around to disburse the final bonds of the series, and because I was already handling the administrative aspect of the plan. If the policy is further clarified, I would be happy to gift all the bonds at once sooner rather than later and be done with it. There wouldn't seem to be any financial disadvantage from doing this.
As another data point, despite having this tranche of gift bonds in the gift box, I have not yet received the email in question from the Treasury (and have checked the spam folder as well). Wondering if this is because I have been disbursing on on an annual schedule such that their algorithm does not flag me as someone sitting on the bonds indefinitely, or if my number just haven't come up yet in the periodic mass emails. Time will tell, and I will update if I do receive later.
We are in a situation where grandparents wanted to use Series I Savings bonds as a means for funding future higher education costs for a grandchild. I am aware that the tax-free nature for educational costs is subject to certain stipulations which may not be met in this scenario, but that's a topic for a future discussion. In any case, it was decided that the bonds be purchased in advance to using the gift box method to maximize the earning potential, the value at eventual redemption, and also so that the 5-year early-redemption penalty would have already expired by the time they are needed. Enough bonds were purchased to cover quite a few years at the maximum. Several have already been gifted at one $10,000 bond per year.
The original plan was to continue disbursing at one electronic bond per year until fully depleted, but there is still nearly a decade to go on that schedule. The gift bonds are in MY account because purely based on age, I am more likely than the grandparents to be around to disburse the final bonds of the series, and because I was already handling the administrative aspect of the plan. If the policy is further clarified, I would be happy to gift all the bonds at once sooner rather than later and be done with it. There wouldn't seem to be any financial disadvantage from doing this.
As another data point, despite having this tranche of gift bonds in the gift box, I have not yet received the email in question from the Treasury (and have checked the spam folder as well). Wondering if this is because I have been disbursing on on an annual schedule such that their algorithm does not flag me as someone sitting on the bonds indefinitely, or if my number just haven't come up yet in the periodic mass emails. Time will tell, and I will update if I do receive later.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
31 CFR § 363.52 is just the regulatory language version of the TD site on limits I originally linked to. (a) says the purchase limit is $10k. (b) says that gifts count toward the purchase limit of the gift recipient.mfFrom35k wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 7:13 am Having worked as a software product manager I completely agree with your points highlighted in red. However, as a lawyer (i.e. working on legal software) I am concerned about:
https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/31/363.52
§ 363.52 What is the principal amount of book-entry Series EE and Series I savings bonds that I may acquire in one year?
(a) The principal amount of book-entry savings bonds that you may acquire in any calendar year is limited to $10,000 for Series EE savings bonds and $10,000 for Series I savings bonds.
(b) Bonds purchased or transferred as gifts will be included in the computation of this limit for the account of the recipient for the year in which the bonds are delivered to the recipient.
(c) Bonds purchased as gifts or in a fiduciary capacity are not included in the computation for the purchaser. Bonds received due to the death of the registered owner are not included in the computation for the recipient.
(d) We reserve the right to take any action we deem necessary to adjust the excess, including the right to remove the excess bonds from your TreasuryDirect account and refund the payment price to your bank account of record using the ACH method of payment.
The way I read the regulation comes down to what "acquire" means. It doesn't say purchase and subsection (b) indicates to me that acquire means purchased or as a recipient of transferred gifts.
All of 31 CFR § 363.52 (b) is referring to gifts. "Bonds purchased or transferred as gifts" refers to the 2 methods in which bonds can be given as gifts: by purchase or by transfer (see 31 CFR § 363.95). For the purposes of this discussion, we are discussing the first method, purchasing a bond as a gift.
So this tells us that gifts received in a year will count towards the limit you may acquire. This does not tell us that you may not receive gifts in excess of $10k. And indeed, empirically we know that TD allows recipients to receive gifts in excess of $10k.
Re: the definition of "acquire", I have a hard time seeing how the passive recipient of a gift (who need not be aware of the gift and has no way to refuse it) can be considered to have "acquired" it. Acquire generally means to buy, get, or obtain something through some active action you take. "I acquired a gift" would suggest I purchased a gift... to give to someone else.
The regulations could have stated something like "gift recipients may not receive gift amounts whose principal would exceed the lesser of 1) $10k or 2) the difference of $10k and the principal amount of any bonds already purchased or received as gifts" but either that was not the intention, or the drafters realized what a mess it would be to try to enforce such a policy. Or less charitably, it just wasn't thought through carefully.
Note that from 2003 to 2008, the limit was $30k per series. So it would have been possible for someone to have purchased $20k as a gift in 2007 (when it would have been under the annual limit), and then delivered that gift a few months later in 2008 (when it would have been over the annual limit).
My conclusion is 1) gift recipients can (and in fact do) receive more than the current annual limit, 2) the regulations do not forbid this, and 3) Treasury has probably realized this is effectively a loophole and is planning to revamp the gifting process to make it more difficult.
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"If I am what I have and if what I have is lost, who then am I?" - Erich Fromm
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Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
I find this odd as well. I'm in the same boat. If I didn't regularly visit this forum, I would have never known.
"Feeling like a victim is a perfectly disastrous way to go through life." - Charlie Munger
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
Best practice is to send out mass emailings spread out over time. Distributes the impact on customer service, and in some cases reduces the cost of outbound mailing (there can be daily limits).Agitated_Analyst wrote: ↑Sat Oct 19, 2024 9:37 amI find this odd as well. I'm in the same boat. If I didn't regularly visit this forum, I would have never known.
Re: Treasury Direct e-mail: undelivered gift bonds
The instructions you reference are very clear - the delivered gifts count against your purchase limit.
That said, the email is more recent and clearly states in the subject line: "Deliver Your Gift Bond"
"We noticed that you still have undelivered gift bonds in your gift box. Please deliver those gifts to the recipient’s account as soon as possible."
This is a formal communication from TD telling me to take action. They correctly note that I have undelivered bonds, so TD is familiar with my account - it's directed specifically to my situation. There is no caveat regarding purchase limits, etc. in the email. Furthermore, the admonition to deliver "as soon as possible" implies an urgent request that may be backed up by sanctions if it is ignored.
I read this as an open invitation to deliver gift bonds (plural) to my account. In fact, they are formally requesting that I do so ASAP.