New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

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Gaston
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New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by Gaston »

Anyone else seeing a new (and maybe harder to use) version of PortfolioVisualizer in their browser?

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/
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itsmeagain
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by itsmeagain »

Gaston wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 4:28 pm Anyone else seeing a new (and maybe harder to use) version of PortfolioVisualizer in their browser?

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/
Alas, yes. What a mess. So many steps to get to backtesting a portfolio. And then I can't even see how to enter a new set of portfolios to compare. (I haven't tried too hard, but it's clearly a lot more complicated than the old version.)

EDIT: Ok, I now see there's a button at upper right on the backtest portfolio page labeled "Customize Data" that seems to allow what the old version had. But the button is half hidden behind the banner headings, and it takes many more steps to get there. Another case of website "improvement" gone awry. :oops:
Verto
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by Verto »

Gaston wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 4:28 pm Anyone else seeing a new (and maybe harder to use) version of PortfolioVisualizer in their browser?

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/
Yes and now limited to ten years for a custom backtest.

A sad day for a lot of us DIY investors that took it for granted.
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Charles Joseph
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by Charles Joseph »

Yes, i just found out only a ten year backtest limit.

Boo.
Retired June 2023
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anagram
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by anagram »

Verto wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 5:00 pm
Gaston wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 4:28 pm Anyone else seeing a new (and maybe harder to use) version of PortfolioVisualizer in their browser?

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/
Yes and now limited to ten years for a custom backtest.

A sad day for a lot of us DIY investors that took it for granted.
I noticed that at the bottom of the page there is a reference to SRL Global. If this is the same company they are in the business of family offices. Interesting.
avalpert1
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by avalpert1 »

Looks like they are trying to monetize the toolset, can't really blame them for that.
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anagram
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by anagram »

avalpert1 wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 5:11 pm Looks like they are trying to monetize the toolset, can't really blame them for that.
Yup. Fee for use next.
Lastrun
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by Lastrun »

Thanks for posting this, will allow some more time to absorb the shock.

A hot mess is right.
the_wiki
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by the_wiki »

Honestly the kind of analysis and queries you can make on PV are quite expensive from a hosting standpoint. I am not surprised that they are scaling back and trying to get subscriptions.

Rather than being upset, I am grateful for all the free usage I got over the years. They didn't even run banner ads!
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cosmos
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by cosmos »

Will check back when its a $99.95/monthly sub to use the site.
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GaryA505
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by GaryA505 »

Gaston wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 4:28 pm Anyone else seeing a new (and maybe harder to use) version of PortfolioVisualizer in their browser?

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/
What is that we say at work? Oh yeah, "if it ain't broke don't fix it", that's it.
Get most of it right and don't make any big mistakes. All else being equal, simpler is better. Simple is as simple does.
billfromct
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by billfromct »

GaryA505 wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 5:55 pm
Gaston wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 4:28 pm Anyone else seeing a new (and maybe harder to use) version of PortfolioVisualizer in their browser?

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/
What is that we say at work? Oh yeah, "if it ain't broke don't fix it", that's it.
I think the quote is, “If it ain’t broke, charge for it!”

bill
smooth_rough
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by smooth_rough »

Yep they mucked it up.

Bogleheads want to sound off regarding alternatives?

Here is one link:

https://valueinvesting.io/backtest-portfolio
dcabler
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by dcabler »

Gaston wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 4:28 pm Anyone else seeing a new (and maybe harder to use) version of PortfolioVisualizer in their browser?

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/
Yes. I wonder if the rollout of this is what's keeping them from answering any of the questions I've sent in recently. :annoyed
CletusCaddy
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by CletusCaddy »

smooth_rough wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 6:06 pm Yep they mucked it up.

Bogleheads want to sound off regarding alternatives?

Here is one link:

https://valueinvesting.io/backtest-portfolio
Wow this looks like a field for field ripoff of PV

Also it’s broken! Doesn’t capture dividend reinvestment properly.
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nisiprius
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by nisiprius »

Oh, TOO bad. But that's the internet for you. It looks as if it literally happened today.

My first impression is that it is just a new skin on the old engine, so I'm not panicking... just yet.
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gatorking
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by gatorking »

cosmos wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 5:55 pm Will check back when its a $99.95/monthly sub to use the site.
Pricing is right there: https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/pricing
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quisp65
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by quisp65 »

This is a shame, I learned alot with PV especially regarding bond funds. Backtesting doesn't show future performance but it teaches alot about how different types of bond funds & their durations impact your portfolio. I would consider paying to get the old one back, however finance sites cater to the wealthy and the prices are usually too high & not worth it to me.

Sad day
techbud
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by techbud »

smooth_rough wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 6:06 pm Yep they mucked it up.

Bogleheads want to sound off regarding alternatives?

Here is one link:

https://valueinvesting.io/backtest-portfolio
Someone on Reddit mentioned:
https://portfoliocharts.com/
bongo
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by bongo »

My saved URL still works, so this is kind of a big nothingburger. They haven't changed any of the inner workings, just the UI.

And that's a somewhat minor change too - looks like they simply got rid of the output tabs and made it a single pane. Color scheme did change negatively (the graph colors are a little too similar now, compared to the simple primary colors they had before). And they added a top section which says in words what the Performance table gives. I guess this is good for cut-and-pasting into reports? I noticed a lot of the Zacks news is also like this - just computer generated English for something a chart or table could explain more quickly.

The 10 year backtest limit IS a big downgrade though.
Lastrun
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by Lastrun »

Charles Joseph wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 5:07 pm Yes, i just found out only a ten year backtest limit.

Boo.
Sad, in the old blue box where it would indicate limited results because of the age of the fund, and offer suggestions, you get this:
The time period of the results is limited to 10 years for free tier and trial accounts.
the_wiki
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by the_wiki »

Wow the “cheap” tier paid plan is $30/mo billed annually. So $360 to sign up.

Might have paid $5-10 billed monthly with no commitments.
Mr. Buzzkill
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by Mr. Buzzkill »

Yep. More complex user interface among other changes. Glad I made use of it before the changes.

I’d pay 9.99 per month but not the $30 being asked for a personal account.

Unless I’m going to contemplate major change in my asset allocation, I can’t say it’s worth the cost. I’m done with PV.

Thank goodness for the Simba spreadsheet.
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nisiprius
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by nisiprius »

Lastrun wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 7:13 pm
Charles Joseph wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 5:07 pm Yes, i just found out only a ten year backtest limit.

Boo.
Sad, in the old blue box where it would indicate limited results because of the age of the fund, and offer suggestions, you get this:
The time period of the results is limited to 10 years for free tier and trial accounts.
O no.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
Lastrun
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by Lastrun »

nisiprius wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 8:44 pm O no.
Well, at least for a while people can still backtest the Avantis funds. :twisted:
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

CletusCaddy wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 6:20 pm
smooth_rough wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 6:06 pm Yep they mucked it up.

Bogleheads want to sound off regarding alternatives?

Here is one link:

https://valueinvesting.io/backtest-portfolio
Wow this looks like a field for field ripoff of PV

Also it’s broken! Doesn’t capture dividend reinvestment properly.
and it said you get 5 free but then have to register an account to access more for free. But it looks like after registering it's still 5 free and then you have to pay. Am I misreading this?

yeah, this is really bad. I looked up 2013 because the US market went up like 32% and it shows 20%. S&P went up 29% and this tool shows 19.04%. Don't use this tool. It's giving misinformation.
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions | Wiki
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CRC_Volunteer
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by CRC_Volunteer »

Looks like they hired the Vanguard UI team. Going from a webpage with concise information to something I would call an aberration.
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happenstance
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by happenstance »

Huge bummer. I understand the need to cover costs, but their pricing scheme is pretty unreasonable for an overly enthusiastic individual investor like myself. I would consider paying for their service, but not $30/month.

It looks like the Fund Performance module is also capped to a 10-year period, but the factor Factor Regression is not.
smooth_rough
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by smooth_rough »

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 9:09 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 6:20 pm
smooth_rough wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 6:06 pm Yep they mucked it up.

Bogleheads want to sound off regarding alternatives?

Here is one link:

https://valueinvesting.io/backtest-portfolio
Wow this looks like a field for field ripoff of PV

Also it’s broken! Doesn’t capture dividend reinvestment properly.
and it said you get 5 free but then have to register an account to access more for free. But it looks like after registering it's still 5 free and then you have to pay. Am I misreading this?

yeah, this is really bad. I looked up 2013 because the US market went up like 32% and it shows 20%. S&P went up 29% and this tool shows 19.04%. Don't use this tool. It's giving misinformation.
1. Clean your browser cache and wipe out your cookies and it resets to new user every time.

2. Like the real Portfolio Visualizer that it appears based on, it can't track performance of funds or ETFs before their inception. There is notice for that on the results if you set the start date prior to the fund's inception date.
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

smooth_rough wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 9:32 pm
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 9:09 pm
CletusCaddy wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 6:20 pm
smooth_rough wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 6:06 pm Yep they mucked it up.

Bogleheads want to sound off regarding alternatives?

Here is one link:

https://valueinvesting.io/backtest-portfolio
Wow this looks like a field for field ripoff of PV

Also it’s broken! Doesn’t capture dividend reinvestment properly.
and it said you get 5 free but then have to register an account to access more for free. But it looks like after registering it's still 5 free and then you have to pay. Am I misreading this?

yeah, this is really bad. I looked up 2013 because the US market went up like 32% and it shows 20%. S&P went up 29% and this tool shows 19.04%. Don't use this tool. It's giving misinformation.
1. Clean your browser cache and wipe out your cookies and it resets to new user every time.

2. Like the real Portfolio Visualizer that it appears based on, it can't track performance of funds or ETFs before their inception. There is notice for that on the results if you set the start date prior to the fund's inception date.
thanks about the #1 tip.

regarding #2, vtsax has been around since 1992 so I'm not sure why 2013 data would be a problem. It's showing incorrect return data for that year (and others). So this tool is not useful because it is not showing correct data.

it's showing 17.36% for last year. Pretty sure vtsax earned 25% last year. Portfoliovisualizer shows 25.9%. It's accurate. This other tool provided is not accurate at all.
It's hard to accept the truth when the lies were exactly what you wanted to hear. Investing is simple, but not easy. Buy, hold & rebalance low cost index funds & manage taxable events. Asking Portfolio Questions | Wiki
abc132
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by abc132 »

CRC_Volunteer wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 9:21 pm Looks like they hired the Vanguard UI team. Going from a webpage with concise information to something I would call an aberration.
Also Vanguard's new pricing team.

Those that only look back less than 10 years will be glad others are finally paying for 10+ years.

They have to cover their costs and it allows them to keep less than 10 years free.

So the logic goes...
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Gaston
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by Gaston »

It’s too bad one of the big players (eg, Fidelity, Vanguard, Schwab) doesn’t build and offer a PortfolioVisualizer-like tool free of charge and without having to sign into anything. I think it might garner them a lot of goodwill, at least from people on this forum.
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CRC_Volunteer
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by CRC_Volunteer »

abc132 wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 9:54 pm
CRC_Volunteer wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 9:21 pm Looks like they hired the Vanguard UI team. Going from a webpage with concise information to something I would call an aberration.
Also Vanguard's new pricing team.

Those that only look back less than 10 years will be glad others are finally paying for 10+ years.

They have to cover their costs and it allows them to keep less than 10 years free.

So the logic goes...
If the price was $10.00 per month, I would signup today. However, the UI is horrible. You can present data in a concise way (as it was before) or present it as if it was a plate of spaghetti thrown against the wall.

This would qualify as enshittification...
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cosmos
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by cosmos »

CRC_Volunteer wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 10:05 pm
If the price was $10.00 per month, I would signup today. However, the UI is horrible. You can present data in a concise way (as it was before) or present it as if it was a plate of spaghetti thrown against the wall.

This would qualify as enshittification...
The good news is the new CEO at Vanguard will be hiring these guys to redo all the website and app UI.
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by Northern Flicker »

I looks to me like it was sold. I think it was a small operation before, perhaps just 1 person, the developer.
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Beensabu
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by Beensabu »

Gaston wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 4:28 pm maybe harder to use
it's so annoying
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Lawrence of Suburbia
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by Lawrence of Suburbia »

They're charging to use PV now?!

What do they think we are ... made of money?
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learning30
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by learning30 »

I just discovered it and started using it like a month ago too. Bummer!
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SB1234
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by SB1234 »

Beensabu wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 10:23 pm
Gaston wrote: Sat May 18, 2024 4:28 pm maybe harder to use
it's so annoying
Don't be so annoyed. looks like you finally get your wish. :D
Beensabu wrote: Sun Jul 23, 2023 6:08 pm No more growth of $10,000 charts. No more PV links allowed!
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rushrocker
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by rushrocker »

Thank God I've spent hundreds of hours back testing portfolios and practically have the complete history of any funds I had interest in ingrained in my memory already... :mrgreen:

I agree the subscription prices are a bit much.
BetaTracker
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by BetaTracker »

Has anyone tried out this?
https://portfoliocharts.com/charts/
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DoctorE
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by DoctorE »

Oh no, why do companies insist on annoying customers by doing this?!
The new version is terrible :annoyed (similar to Reddits' new layout)
Oh and limited to 10Y data unless paying $360... ok!
Last edited by DoctorE on Sun May 19, 2024 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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TimeIsYourFriend
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by TimeIsYourFriend »

I wouldn't mind a free version with ads. Say when you run an analysis, you have to watch a 30-second ad or something but have full capability.
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by beachtech »

I’ve been slowly working on https://totalrealreturns.com/ as a side project for many years. Basically stock/ETF/mutual fund charts with dividend reinvestment, inflation adjustment, log scale, %/year trendline, etc.

What are the minimal set of features you’d need to make this a decent replacement?
DoctorE
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by DoctorE »

beachtech wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 6:35 am I’ve been slowly working on https://totalrealreturns.com/ as a side project for many years. Basically stock/ETF/mutual fund charts with dividend reinvestment, inflation adjustment, log scale, %/year trendline, etc.

What are the minimal set of features you’d need to make this a decent replacement?
I tried contact you, your tool is amazing. I would love to provide feedback.
Your tool could blow out the previous Portfolio Visualizer out of the water.
I believe most investors, like myself, just want to see historical results, dividend and inflation adusted by combining different assets.
mmcmonster
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by mmcmonster »

Came here looking to see what happened to Portfolio Visualizer and you don't disappoint.

Here is a thought:

Is it possible for a non-profit that is interested in financial literacy (ie: https://boglecenter.net/ ) to re-create the interface and get the data and run this? How much would a site like this cost to set up and run indefinitely?

I can't image the old interface can be trademarked.
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by nisiprius »

beachtech wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 6:35 am I’ve been slowly working on https://totalrealreturns.com/ as a side project for many years. Basically stock/ETF/mutual fund charts with dividend reinvestment, inflation adjustment, log scale, %/year trendline, etc.

What are the minimal set of features you’d need to make this a decent replacement?
1) Long-term data, if possible data back to inception, is very important to me. Of course PV did not, in fact, go back to inception. I think there was a time when it went back to 1972, but then they limited it to 1985 for the free account level.

2) It's a small thing, but PV's inclusion of perhaps twenty well-known portfolios as available presets is quite convenient. Do they still have that? Yes, they do, but it's a shorter list. They've chucked out "Bogleheads Three Fund," I see. I think "Mebane Faber Ivy Portfolio" and "Marc Faber Portfolio" might be new.
Stocks/Bonds (60/40)
Ray Dalio All Seasons
Rick Ferri Core Four
Bill Bernstein No Brainer
Bill Schultheis Coffee House
David Swensen Lazy Portfolio
David Swensen Yale Endowment
Scott Burns Couch Portfolio
Harry Browne Permanent Portfolio
Larry Swedroe Simple Portfolio
Larry Swedroe Minimize FatTails Portfolio
Mebane Faber Ivy Portfolio
Marc Faber Portfolio
3) Careful and explicit documentation of data sources.

4) Monthly returns in tabular form.

5) This is something PV does not provide, so not needed for a "replacement," but I'd love to see integration of a handful of various well-known data sets that are not actually mutual fund, market, or stock data. In many cases these are available online at no cost, but scattered among different websites and in different formats. These would include: Robert Shiller's "online data" (including stocks back to 1871); Fama-French research portfolios (from Ken French's data library); gold prices, potentially back to before 1700, from measuringworth.com; some kind of data representing bank accounts, possibly from the St. Louis Fed; and, if at all possible, the six Ibbotson SBBI ("stocks, bonds, bills, and inflation") data series.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
Austhuds
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by Austhuds »

Does the paid version of Morningstar have a feature similar to the PortfolioVisualizer we've been using?
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nisiprius
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by nisiprius »

There might have been a time when ten years of history seemed reasonable, but today it's a bad joke. Ten years doesn't include a full business cycle; it's missing the global financial crisis and the "lost decade." It's missing the tech bubble and crash around 2000, and... significantly for factor fans... it's missing the period from 2000-2003 when small-cap value performed spectacularly.

I'm not personally a fan of small-cap value, international stocks, commodity funds, or REITs, but ten years doesn't give any of them a fair shake.

It will be interesting to see what happens with regard to mentions of PortfolioVisualizer in the forum. For about a decade, X% of all forum threads, where X might well be as high as 50%, have mentioned it at some point. The ubiquity of PortfolioVisualizer use has probably had a meaningful effect in encouraging traffic to the PortfolioVisualizer site. I don't know what percentage of their paying memberships are "conversions" from free membership, though.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
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sycamore
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Re: New version of PortfolioVisualizer?

Post by sycamore »

mmcmonster wrote: Sun May 19, 2024 6:56 am I can't image the old interface can be trademarked.
No, but it can be copyrighted.
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