I will no longer use the word "should".

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Cubs Fan
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I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Cubs Fan »

In 2014 I retired and decided to roll over my 401k into an IRA. I did not want to donate a portion of this amount to any advisor. That is when I discovered the Bogleheads Forum. I transferred the money in kind to Vanguard and invested in VBTLX (Vanguard Total Bond Fund) for my rollover IRA and VTI (Vanguard Total Stock Fund) for my Roth IRA and my taxable account. Since then I began reading several Boglehead related books and the Bogleheads Forum. I loved the results so much that I decided to share this information with just about everybody. Typical responses were "I really like my guy" and "I could never do that myself". Not one person that I talked to about the Bogleheads Forum has become a Boglehead. I realized then that no matter how strongly I feel about low cost index investing people do not want to make changes based on what I think that they should to. However, if somebody asks me about the Bogleheads I will be happy to tell them.
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tetractys
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by tetractys »

Cubs Fan wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:11 pm In 2014 I retired and decided to roll over my 401k into an IRA. I did not want to donate a portion of this amount to any advisor. That is when I discovered the Bogleheads Forum. I transferred the money in kind to Vanguard and invested in VBTLX (Vanguard Total Bond Fund) for my rollover IRA and VTI (Vanguard Total Stock Fund) for my Roth IRA and my taxable account. Since then I began reading several Boglehead related books and the Bogleheads Forum. I loved the results so much that I decided to share this information with just about everybody. Typical responses were "I really like my guy" and "I could never do that myself". Not one person that I talked to about the Bogleheads Forum has become a Boglehead. I realized then that no matter how strongly I feel about low cost index investing people do not want to make changes based on what I think that they should to. However, if somebody asks me about the Bogleheads I will be happy to tell them.
Congrats! I think you’ve got it right on all fronts!
sailaway
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by sailaway »

To be fair, there aren't many areas of my life where I want to do what other people think I should.

And it is equally rare that anyone wants to hear about my latest soapbox.
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Cubicle
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Cubicle »

Yeah it gets tiring after a while trying to show people the light. I will not so subtly bring up that I am investing every so often, creating a conversation opportunity for people to inquire.

But I stopped trying to recruit.
$1 saved = >$1 earned. ✓
UpperNwGuy
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by UpperNwGuy »

I made a subtle hint to my late father that he should manage his own investments, and he told me not to waste my time trying to talk him out of his long-standing relationship with his investment advisor.

I made a more direct hint to my daughter that she should stop picking individual stocks and transfer out of Robinhood. She likes doing it her way.

I made an even more direct suggestion to my son that he should stop picking sector funds and go with total market index funds. He likes doing it his way.
Normchad
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Normchad »

I never give advice outside of this forum. And honestly, I just keep my mouth shut or change the subject when these kinds of talks come up in real life.

I’ve learned that people aren’t really interested in doing anything different. Mostly they want to talk about how smart they are, or how much they hate taxes. So I just don’t bother.

To do this well, I think you need three things. 1. High cognitive ability. 2. An interest in doing it. 3. An Aptitude for doing it. There aren’t many people in my life who possess all 3.

I read finance related stuff, probably for an hour a day. We here know this stuff is simple. But it takes a lot of time and reading to understand why it’s simple, and to build the mental fortitude to tune out the BS and become rich the BH way. Who else is willing to do that? And that is why they pay “a guy” thousands of dollars a year….
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telemark
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by telemark »

Of course people like their guy. Financial advisors are generally very likable people. It's practically a job requirement.
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Stinky
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Stinky »

telemark wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:29 pm Of course people like their guy. Financial advisors are generally very likable people. It's practically a job requirement.
Can you imagine dealing with an “unlikable” financial advisor?

Somehow I don’t think he/she would get many clients…..
Former life insurance company financial officer who sincerely believes that ”It’s a GREAT day to be alive!”
000
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by 000 »

You should have started doing that years ago. :mrgreen:
What goes up must come down 😎
SevenBridgesRoad
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by SevenBridgesRoad »

Normchad wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:05 pm ...To do this well, I think you need three things. 1. High cognitive ability. 2. An interest in doing it. 3. An Aptitude for doing it. There aren’t many people in my life who possess all 3...
I will ask you about your "high" qualifier in #1, which implies beyond the broad middle of the cognitive bell curve. Why do you think one of normal cognitive abilities can't "do this well", the Boglehead way? By normal, I mean in the thick part of the bell curve.

Using this as a definition:
"What is the meaning of cognitive abilities?
Cognitive ability is defined as a general mental capability involving reasoning, problem solving, planning, abstract thinking, complex idea comprehension, and learning from experience (Gottfredson, 1997)"
Topic Author
Cubs Fan
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Cubs Fan »

Thanks to all for great responses. I try to incorporate this idea in all of my affairs. Just like investing, "Do nothing keep mouth shut!" "Be one among many, and argue without anger."
Normchad
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Normchad »

SevenBridgesRoad wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:01 pm
Normchad wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:05 pm ...To do this well, I think you need three things. 1. High cognitive ability. 2. An interest in doing it. 3. An Aptitude for doing it. There aren’t many people in my life who possess all 3...
I will ask you about your "high" qualifier in #1, which implies beyond the broad middle of the cognitive bell curve. Why do you think one of normal cognitive abilities can't "do this well", the Boglehead way? By normal, I mean in the thick part of the bell curve.

Using this as a definition:
"What is the meaning of cognitive abilities?
Cognitive ability is defined as a general mental capability involving reasoning, problem solving, planning, abstract thinking, complex idea comprehension, and learning from experience (Gottfredson, 1997)"
I wish I had a better way of saying it. From the definition you provide, a lot of people meet that. You don’t need to be a genius, maybe I should have said “above average”….

I really think this stuff is hard to understand and believe in, if you can’t easily do algebra in your head. And lots can’t do that. And a lot of people really aren’t good at reasoning.

This is the tough part for me. And it’s just my opinion. There is a BH formula for doing this stuff. And it’s simple. So in theory, anybody could do it. My contention though is that you can’t really do it, and stick with it for decades, if you don’t understand and appreciate all the data and reasoning behind it. Somebody will eventually trip you up and derail it.

I suppose this is the heart of “it’s simple but it isn’t easy”.
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FreddieFIRE
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by FreddieFIRE »

Cubs Fan wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:11 pm I realized then that no matter how strongly I feel about low cost index investing people do not want to make changes based on what I think that they should to. However, if somebody asks me about the Bogleheads I will be happy to tell them.
This. I'll encourage them to join Bogleheads and also suggest that they might want to call Vanguard to discuss their .3% PAS.
Fallible
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Fallible »

sailaway wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:18 pm To be fair, there aren't many areas of my life where I want to do what other people think I should.

And it is equally rare that anyone wants to hear about my latest soapbox.
And I think this can be especially true when it comes not just to investing but to money overall. As WSJ columnist Jason Zweig wrote in his book, Your Money & Your Brain: "The 100 billion neurons that are packed into that three-pound clump of tissue between your ears can generate an emotional tornado when you think about money."

It's a very good reason to approach the topic of money carefully, or not at all.
"Yes, investing is simple. But it is not easy, for it requires discipline, patience, steadfastness, and that most uncommon of all gifts, common sense." ~Jack Bogle
coalcracker
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by coalcracker »

Normchad wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:17 pm
SevenBridgesRoad wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:01 pm
Normchad wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:05 pm ...To do this well, I think you need three things. 1. High cognitive ability. 2. An interest in doing it. 3. An Aptitude for doing it. There aren’t many people in my life who possess all 3...
I will ask you about your "high" qualifier in #1, which implies beyond the broad middle of the cognitive bell curve. Why do you think one of normal cognitive abilities can't "do this well", the Boglehead way? By normal, I mean in the thick part of the bell curve.

Using this as a definition:
"What is the meaning of cognitive abilities?
Cognitive ability is defined as a general mental capability involving reasoning, problem solving, planning, abstract thinking, complex idea comprehension, and learning from experience (Gottfredson, 1997)"
I wish I had a better way of saying it. From the definition you provide, a lot of people meet that. You don’t need to be a genius, maybe I should have said “above average”….

I really think this stuff is hard to understand and believe in, if you can’t easily do algebra in your head. And lots can’t do that. And a lot of people really aren’t good at reasoning.

This is the tough part for me. And it’s just my opinion. There is a BH formula for doing this stuff. And it’s simple. So in theory, anybody could do it. My contention though is that you can’t really do it, and stick with it for decades, if you don’t understand and appreciate all the data and reasoning behind it. Somebody will eventually trip you up and derail it.

I suppose this is the heart of “it’s simple but it isn’t easy”.
I have a lot of doctor friends with “above average” intelligence, and I don’t know any who are BHs. Most professionals have trained and studied for the better part of a decade to learn their professions, and they find it impossible to believe investing can be so simple. To be fair, many have zero interest in learning about it either.

So, they hand over a few percentage points of their large portfolios every year to the “experts.”
SevenBridgesRoad
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by SevenBridgesRoad »

Normchad wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:17 pm
SevenBridgesRoad wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 10:01 pm
Normchad wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:05 pm ...To do this well, I think you need three things. 1. High cognitive ability. 2. An interest in doing it. 3. An Aptitude for doing it. There aren’t many people in my life who possess all 3...
I will ask you about your "high" qualifier in #1, which implies beyond the broad middle of the cognitive bell curve. Why do you think one of normal cognitive abilities can't "do this well", the Boglehead way? By normal, I mean in the thick part of the bell curve.

Using this as a definition:
"What is the meaning of cognitive abilities?
Cognitive ability is defined as a general mental capability involving reasoning, problem solving, planning, abstract thinking, complex idea comprehension, and learning from experience (Gottfredson, 1997)"
I wish I had a better way of saying it. From the definition you provide, a lot of people meet that. You don’t need to be a genius, maybe I should have said “above average”….

I really think this stuff is hard to understand and believe in, if you can’t easily do algebra in your head. And lots can’t do that. And a lot of people really aren’t good at reasoning.

This is the tough part for me. And it’s just my opinion. There is a BH formula for doing this stuff. And it’s simple. So in theory, anybody could do it. My contention though is that you can’t really do it, and stick with it for decades, if you don’t understand and appreciate all the data and reasoning behind it. Somebody will eventually trip you up and derail it.

I suppose this is the heart of “it’s simple but it isn’t easy”.
Fair enough. I understand the difficulty of providing a set of criteria ("three things") and you did pretty darn good job, in my opinion. I'm admittedly quibbling.

I'm going to suggest substituting curiosity for your #1 and #3, or in some way serving as an alternative (not sure how I would rephrase) I'm a big believer in curiosity as a leveler. If one can remain curious and have a cognitive ability in the big thick middle of the bell curve, they can become outstanding Bogleheads, in my opinion. Your number 2 is spot on. My wife is highly intelligent and has an aptitude for numbers (and remains very curious about things). She simply has no interest in doing this.
Tamalak
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Tamalak »

The most I ever do now, when discussing investing and other fields, is talk about what I do and why I do it. I do not advocate or persuade.
MattB
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by MattB »

Normchad wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:05 pm I never give advice outside of this forum. And honestly, I just keep my mouth shut or change the subject when these kinds of talks come up in real life.

I’ve learned that people aren’t really interested in doing anything different. Mostly they want to talk about how smart they are, or how much they hate taxes. So I just don’t bother.

To do this well, I think you need three things. 1. High cognitive ability. 2. An interest in doing it. 3. An Aptitude for doing it. There aren’t many people in my life who possess all 3.

I read finance related stuff, probably for an hour a day. We here know this stuff is simple. But it takes a lot of time and reading to understand why it’s simple, and to build the mental fortitude to tune out the BS and become rich the BH way. Who else is willing to do that? And that is why they pay “a guy” thousands of dollars a year….
Insightful post. Though I think high cognitive ability may be a stretch. I suspect anyone with more or less average cognitive ability could save and invest like a boglehead, and that's half the point. Interest and aptitude for sure.

To the OP: Yes. You're correct. Nobody cares to be told what they "should" do, even if it will save them a bunch of money. This took me a long time to learn. But I believe that it is true. You can bring a horse to water, but you can't convince them to be a Boglehead.
manatee2005
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by manatee2005 »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:59 pm I made a subtle hint to my late father that he should manage his own investments, and he told me not to waste my time trying to talk him out of his long-standing relationship with his investment advisor.

I made a more direct hint to my daughter that she should stop picking individual stocks and transfer out of Robinhood. She likes doing it her way.

I made an even more direct suggestion to my son that he should stop picking sector funds and go with total market index funds. He likes doing it his way.
How come your kids don’t listen to you? My son asks me for advice before he makes any trade.
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Call_Me_Op »

This is why I try to resist giving investing advice to anyone. No matter how much you try to teach them that markets go up and down and that is part of the process, when the market tanks YOU will be blamed.
Best regards, -Op | | "In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity." Einstein
iamblessed
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by iamblessed »

Cubs Fan wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:11 pm In 2014 I retired and decided to roll over my 401k into an IRA. I did not want to donate a portion of this amount to any advisor. That is when I discovered the Bogleheads Forum. I transferred the money in kind to Vanguard and invested in VBTLX (Vanguard Total Bond Fund) for my rollover IRA and VTI (Vanguard Total Stock Fund) for my Roth IRA and my taxable account. Since then I began reading several Boglehead related books and the Bogleheads Forum. I loved the results so much that I decided to share this information with just about everybody. Typical responses were "I really like my guy" and "I could never do that myself". Not one person that I talked to about the Bogleheads Forum has become a Boglehead. I realized then that no matter how strongly I feel about low cost index investing people do not want to make changes based on what I think that they should to. However, if somebody asks me about the Bogleheads I will be happy to tell them.
For the average Joe the best you could do it guide them to a all in one fund. Something like the Vanguard Balanced Index. Say I know a guy that made a lot of money in that fund. That's about the best you can do. Anything else is over their head.
UpperNwGuy
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by UpperNwGuy »

manatee2005 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:51 am
UpperNwGuy wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:59 pm I made a subtle hint to my late father that he should manage his own investments, and he told me not to waste my time trying to talk him out of his long-standing relationship with his investment advisor.

I made a more direct hint to my daughter that she should stop picking individual stocks and transfer out of Robinhood. She likes doing it her way.

I made an even more direct suggestion to my son that he should stop picking sector funds and go with total market index funds. He likes doing it his way.
How come your kids don’t listen to you? My son asks me for advice before he makes any trade.
I have independently minded kids who don't follow Saint Dad for the same reasons many members here don't follow Saint Jack Bogle or Saint Warren Buffet. My kids prefer to learn by trying new things and seeing what works and what doesn't.
Last edited by UpperNwGuy on Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
jebmke
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by jebmke »

Call_Me_Op wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:07 am This is why I try to resist giving investing advice to anyone. No matter how much you try to teach them that markets go up and down and that is part of the process, when the market tanks YOU will be blamed.
same here; tbf, it almost never comes up in conversations with friends and relatives. I certainly don't bring it up. A lot more interesting things to talk about.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.
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JupiterJones
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by JupiterJones »

I don't like being "should" upon, so I try not to "should" all over my friends and family either.
"Stay on target!" -- Davish Krail
Nowizard
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Nowizard »

Unasked for advice is often interpreted as criticism.

Tim
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Parkinglotracer »

Yes above …. Unsolicited advice is a form of aggression … Is what I have been told.
PaulW
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by PaulW »

I find it frustrating that there are few people with whom I can have a meaningful discussion.

Me: What are your thoughts on changing asset allocation in your 70’s?
Response: What’s asset allocation?

Me: What was last years percentage return from your portfolio?
Response: No idea.

Me: What are you looking for in a stock?
Response: I want good growth with no risk.

Me: I attended the Boglehead Conference last week.
Response: Did you get any good stock tips?

This board is great but sometimes it is nice to be able to sit down with someone and discuss ideas.

Paul
Onlineid3089
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Onlineid3089 »

I don't engage in discussions about saving and investing with friends. I will share what we do if explicitly asked, essentially low cost index funds and that you get what you don't pay for. Otherwise, if it comes up in a group conversation I keep to myself until the topic turns. I started doing this after coming to the realization that some people take offense to the suggestion that they are unnecessarily wasting money on an Edward Jones (or whatever else) advisor.
Silverado
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Silverado »

Normchad wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:05 pm I never give advice outside of this forum. And honestly, I just keep my mouth shut or change the subject when these kinds of talks come up in real life.

I’ve learned that people aren’t really interested in doing anything different. Mostly they want to talk about how smart they are, or how much they hate taxes. So I just don’t bother.

To do this well, I think you need three things. 1. High cognitive ability. 2. An interest in doing it. 3. An Aptitude for doing it. There aren’t many people in my life who possess all 3.

I read finance related stuff, probably for an hour a day. We here know this stuff is simple. But it takes a lot of time and reading to understand why it’s simple, and to build the mental fortitude to tune out the BS and become rich the BH way. Who else is willing to do that? And that is why they pay “a guy” thousands of dollars a year….

I added bold to a phrase I think is excellent. This fits how I think about it perfectly. I read and read and study and study, and I still fret that I am missing something that would make something be different than I think. We have amassed several million dollars, with probably 2/3 of it coming since reading here, so I conclude it really does work to invest simply and cheaply. But that doesn’t stop me from fretting and continuing to try and learn more, just in case.

And unlike others, I think #1 is accurate enough as written.
Independent George
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Independent George »

I'll help if people ask me, but unless I'm invited, it probably comes across like trying to convert someone to your religion. Even with good intentions, there's a certain level of inherent condescension to it.
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by finite_difference »

Sometime in the near future, thanks to the adoption of the Bogleheads forum rules, most if not all 20th century topics were declared distasteful, and conversations were happily limited to the weather, food, and sports.

You may wonder where these rules came from, what a forum is, and who the Bogleheads were. The rules were established to allow for unfettered discussions in financial topics on a Web1 messaging server called a forum. It is unclear why they called themselves “Bogleheads”. But since financial topics are the most boring subject in the universe, naturally such topics were eliminated from discussion as well.

Life will be much simpler in the future.
The most precious gift we can offer anyone is our attention. - Thich Nhat Hanh
UpperNwGuy
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by UpperNwGuy »

Independent George wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:32 pm I'll help if people ask me, but unless I'm invited, it probably comes across like trying to convert someone to your religion. Even with good intentions, there's a certain level of inherent condescension to it.
They say that the following topics are taboo in social situations: money, politics, religion, and sex. I am thinking that investing philosophy falls under money.
ClassII
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by ClassII »

I am happy to talk about stuff if the person is genuinely interested. I'm pretty sure I'm getting a reputation around work as the 401k guru as I'm starting to get asked questions by people I don't know about it. For the rest I'm happy to sit back and not worry about having to compete with them for high end vacation, nice house in the country club, or other pursuits with my extra money. A significant portion of the US economy is designed around milking the rubes for all their worth and working against that machine is like spitting into a forest fire.

I rather look to forums like this to find my own way around a financial industry almost exclusively set up to take my money than lead some crusade against it. A great example would be high reward credit cards. In a way, my BofA Preferred Rewards freebies and 2.65% cash back is all thanks to everyone else dutifully pays their finance charges and late fees. If those people didn't do that (or banned by law like in Europe) then I'd probably get a lot less perks from my bank. Perhaps there's a little slice of ruthless libertarianism running through me but especially in the age of the Internet its pretty hard to excuse people for being ignorant about something as important as money.
peskypesky
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by peskypesky »

I finally managed to get one of my doctor brothers to start investing sort of along BH lines. He had a ton of money sitting in savings accounts that were doing nothing. Last year I convinced him to put a good chunk of it in a Vanguard S&P500 index.

He has thanked me many times.

I have another doctor brother who I can't convince to invest. He's too scared of stock market drops, so he keeps his money in CD's. I've tried for many years to change his mind, but he won't budge.

Both of my brothers made a LOT more money than me, but I'm the one who retired early, thanks to my investing in index funds.

I just managed to convince a friend to do some investing. She also just had her money in CD's. She opened a Vanguard account today.

I do warn everyone that there is RISK when you invest in stocks...but with a 7% inflation rate, it's just not a great idea to have all your savings in low or no interest accounts.

P.S. I owe EVERYTHING to the guy who hired me 24 years ago at my first corporate job in NYC. He hounded me to join the company's Fidelity 401k plan, and he hounded me to put money into it. He is the man who got me started with investing and without him, I'd still be busting my ass night and day in corporate America.

P.P.S. The other person I owe gratitude is Suzie Orman. She really helped me to learn how to live frugally and stay out of debt.
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Barry Barnitz
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Barry Barnitz »

Hi:

Sometimes, albeit infrequently, one can be surprised. About 15 years ago, when I was working graveyard shifts (and doing the business' daily ledger books), a local small store business owner stopped by and noticed I was reading an investment book. He asked me what did I invest in, and I told him "index funds." He replied, "That's the smart thing to do."

regards,
Additional administrative tasks: Financial Page bogleheads.org. blog; finiki the Canadian wiki; The Bogle Center for Financial Literacy site; La Guía Bogleheads® España site.
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by GaryA505 »

My sister asked me for advice on investments for a 401K rollover. She was approached by Fidelity for some of their managed services. I considered suggesting that she do what I do, but she knows nothing about investments (and wasn't interested in learning) so I just suggested that she put it in a target date fund.
"Get most of it right and don't make any big mistakes."
wolf359
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by wolf359 »

Cubs Fan wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:11 pm In 2014 I retired and decided to roll over my 401k into an IRA. I did not want to donate a portion of this amount to any advisor. That is when I discovered the Bogleheads Forum. I transferred the money in kind to Vanguard and invested in VBTLX (Vanguard Total Bond Fund) for my rollover IRA and VTI (Vanguard Total Stock Fund) for my Roth IRA and my taxable account. Since then I began reading several Boglehead related books and the Bogleheads Forum. I loved the results so much that I decided to share this information with just about everybody. Typical responses were "I really like my guy" and "I could never do that myself". Not one person that I talked to about the Bogleheads Forum has become a Boglehead. I realized then that no matter how strongly I feel about low cost index investing people do not want to make changes based on what I think that they should to. However, if somebody asks me about the Bogleheads I will be happy to tell them.
When the student is ready, the teacher appears.
They're not ready.

I know several people in my offline life who are Bogleheads, but it wasn't from me. When I tried broaching the concepts to them, they already knew them. They had found the site on their own.

It turns out that one of them had actually tried to introduce index fund investing to ME, maybe 15-20 years ago. I don't even remember that.
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JupiterJones
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by JupiterJones »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 2:41 pm They say that the following topics are taboo in social situations: money, politics, religion, and sex. I am thinking that investing philosophy falls under money.
Probably a bit under religion too. :D
"Stay on target!" -- Davish Krail
Rudedog
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Rudedog »

As soon as they hear me say, "I do it myself", they generally stop talking about managing investments. My parents used an investment guy, he tagged them for 1.25% for many years and generally did nothing except call them a few times a year, as they did their own trading and hardly ever traded. By the way, he charged them $ 75 for a trade.
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sarabayo
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by sarabayo »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:59 pm I made a subtle hint to my late father that he should manage his own investments, and he told me not to waste my time trying to talk him out of his long-standing relationship with his investment advisor.

I made a more direct hint to my daughter that she should stop picking individual stocks and transfer out of Robinhood. She likes doing it her way.

I made an even more direct suggestion to my son that he should stop picking sector funds and go with total market index funds. He likes doing it his way.
At least your relations seem to be investing at all... I once tried suggesting to my cousin that maybe he should start contributing to his 401(k) and investing in the stock market, particularly in index funds. His response was that for people of our generation (millennials) it's pointless to save money because society is going to collapse by the mid 21st century because of climate change. :shock:

To be fair, he may well be right. But he may well be wrong, and if climate change doesn't cause a societal collapse, I'm going to be glad I have my 401(k) (and taxable account, now) when I reach retirement age...
stats99
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by stats99 »

In my experience, most folks, even when “asking” for advice are really just looking for you to validate a their current thinking or a decision that has already been made,
phxjcc
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by phxjcc »

Normchad wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 9:05 pm I never give advice outside of this forum. And honestly, I just keep my mouth shut or change the subject when these kinds of talks come up in real life.

I’ve learned that people aren’t really interested in doing anything different. Mostly they want to talk about how smart they are, or how much they hate taxes. So I just don’t bother.

To do this well, I think you need three things. 1. High cognitive ability. 2. An interest in doing it. 3. An Aptitude for doing it. There aren’t many people in my life who possess all 3.

I read finance related stuff, probably for an hour a day. We here know this stuff is simple. But it takes a lot of time and reading to understand why it’s simple, and to build the mental fortitude to tune out the BS and become rich the BH way. Who else is willing to do that? And that is why they pay “a guy” thousands of dollars a year….
I think that it is (much much) more than the above.

It is also self discipline, self trust and self reliance—and hardest of all…accountability.

You must discipline your self and your spending habits rather than call Bob or Bobbie and say “I want to buy a new toy, please send me $50,000”. Bob: “ now Vill will that REALLY make you happy?”

You must trust yourself to perform the above self talk.

You must rely on yourself to make the right choices and decisions.

The big one: accountability…if Bob, Bobbie, Madoff, Milken, Ponzi, et al lose all your money…then it’s: “hey, not my fault—other people got taken by them too”.
If you run out of money while being your own counselor…there is no one, NOT ONE OTHER PERSON, to blame but you. If you believe Kathi and ARK or Bogle and VOO and you are wrong..what will your DW/DH and kids/grandkids and in-laws think?

I know PhD’s, MD’s, JD’s, etc that will swear that they are not smart enough to do it themselves.

I am talking about two people that have bootstrapped themselves out of tin shack Southern USA poverty from the bayou that will not even listen to handling their own investments. I am convinced that it is the latter.
Carguy85
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Carguy85 »

One bro listened to what I had to say... investigated what bogle had to stay and seems to think a set/forget 2 fund portfolio of vtsax and a little bond index fund makes a tremendous amount of sense in the long haul as do I....we both diy. The other bro thinks we are messing around with the stock market willie nilly and is gladly paying a buddy a big chunk of change to essentially buy a mix of vanguard funds for him and do exactly what he is accusing us of doing. He said he recently told his money guy to go big in some tech stocks so he could beat the sp500. Btw, his FIL thinks we are totally silly for not leveraging our homes in the market. As an above poster said, the FIL seems to like to tell everyone how smart he is. :sharebeer To each their own. Very similar to the threads on credit cards... some think it’s perfectly rational and very smart of them to have 10 or even 20 cards...LOL I’ll admit I don’t have the mental capacity for any more than one card...and it’s a no kick backs debit card.. I froze all three bureaus a few years ago and could care less how well I score at being a professional money borrower. I’m sure it’s in the dumps by now.
AlphaLess
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by AlphaLess »

Cubs Fan wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:11 pm In 2014 I retired and decided to roll over my 401k into an IRA. I did not want to donate a portion of this amount to any advisor. That is when I discovered the Bogleheads Forum. I transferred the money in kind to Vanguard and invested in VBTLX (Vanguard Total Bond Fund) for my rollover IRA and VTI (Vanguard Total Stock Fund) for my Roth IRA and my taxable account. Since then I began reading several Boglehead related books and the Bogleheads Forum. I loved the results so much that I decided to share this information with just about everybody. Typical responses were "I really like my guy" and "I could never do that myself". Not one person that I talked to about the Bogleheads Forum has become a Boglehead. I realized then that no matter how strongly I feel about low cost index investing people do not want to make changes based on what I think that they should to. However, if somebody asks me about the Bogleheads I will be happy to tell them.
Good perspective. Thanks.

I have stopped giving out free advice.

It's just not helpful, and takes a lot of my time.
I don't carry a signature because people are easily offended.
manatee2005
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by manatee2005 »

UpperNwGuy wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 8:25 am
manatee2005 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 3:51 am
UpperNwGuy wrote: Sun Jan 09, 2022 8:59 pm I made a subtle hint to my late father that he should manage his own investments, and he told me not to waste my time trying to talk him out of his long-standing relationship with his investment advisor.

I made a more direct hint to my daughter that she should stop picking individual stocks and transfer out of Robinhood. She likes doing it her way.

I made an even more direct suggestion to my son that he should stop picking sector funds and go with total market index funds. He likes doing it his way.
How come your kids don’t listen to you? My son asks me for advice before he makes any trade.
I have independently minded kids who don't follow Saint Dad for the same reasons many members here don't follow Saint Jack Bogle or Saint Warren Buffet. My kids prefer to learn by trying new things and seeing what works and what doesn't.
Thanks for calling me Saint Dad 😀
Fat Tails
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Fat Tails »

stats99 wrote: Mon Jan 10, 2022 4:11 pm In my experience, most folks, even when “asking” for advice are really just looking for you to validate a their current thinking or a decision that has already been made,
I think this is very true.

I have also tried to recruit people to bogleheads without success. Being a boglehead does take some mental energy and most people just don't want to pay the price for success. They also don't realize that they are giving up about 1/3 of the amount they can withdraw from their portfolio over their lifetime when paying a 1% fee on assets under management.

Instead of “should” I generally use “may”.
“Doing well with money has little to do with how smart you are and a lot to do with how you behave.” - Morgan Housel
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gas_balloon
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by gas_balloon »

... and here I am - between my close friends, relatives and colleagues; I have managed to convert atleast 10-12 people to partial bogleheads. They still believe they can beat the market and keep aside a small (<5-10%) play money portfolio, but invest a majority of their assets in BND/VNQ/VTI/VBR/VXUS equivalents. I help them setup with some 30-minute brain dump and a spreadsheet that they can then take over and customize it for themselves. Most of them called me the first couple years for advice when they were stuck, but they are all mostly independent at this point and able to follow the strategy on their own. All but one of them were immigrants who had no clue how to get started and efficiently use the various tax advantaged accounts they have access to; so held a vast majority of their savings in cash until I had them think different.
JDave
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by JDave »

I'm a medical doctor, in my 43rd. year of practice. The majority of what I do is give people (what I think is) good advice, and probably 90% of them don't take it. That's just the way life is.
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Stinky
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Stinky »

JDave wrote: Tue Jan 11, 2022 9:33 am I'm a medical doctor, in my 43rd. year of practice. The majority of what I do is give people (what I think is) good advice, and probably 90% of them don't take it. That's just the way life is.
I had no idea that the “ignore medical advice” part of the population was that high.

Such a non-compliance rate must be immensely frustrating to you and your staff.
Former life insurance company financial officer who sincerely believes that ”It’s a GREAT day to be alive!”
Boulder92
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Re: I will no longer use the word "should".

Post by Boulder92 »

I was just thinking about the doctor example similar to the one above. I have read over a third of patients do not even fill very important new medications. Other examples include people who pay executive coaches, therapists, etc. From what I heard a very low percentage follow the advice even when they are paying for it. I try to remember this not only when tempted to give advice but when I receive unsolicited advice myself. I often gently respond, with a chuckle, something to the effect “you know people who pay for advice rarely follow it and I am not even paying you….”
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