M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spread

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sharukh
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M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spread

Post by sharukh »

Hi,

I opened a m1 finance account. Learnt that all trades will occur at 9:30 am. It is highly volatile at that time. High bid ask spread at market open. I guess m1 finance gets better money for them for generating traffic at market open from exchanges.

As a investor how much of a concern it is ? (Volatile Market time and high bid ask spread)
Something to stay away or not a big deal ?

Even using their m1 plus, I cannot disable morning market open trade window. Guess it is a very good money maker for them.

Thank you.
Last edited by sharukh on Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:36 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Nathan Drake
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading

Post by Nathan Drake »

I don’t think it matters at all for long term buy and hold

The market is volatile all the time
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading

Post by AlohaJoe »

sharukh wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:51 pm As a investor how much of a concern it is ?
Zero concern.
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sharukh
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading

Post by sharukh »

AlohaJoe wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:03 pm
sharukh wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:51 pm As a investor how much of a concern it is ?
Zero concern.
Thank you, please share any thoughts regarding high bid ask spread at market open.
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sharukh
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading

Post by sharukh »

Nathan Drake wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:02 pm I don’t think it matters at all for long term buy and hold

The market is volatile all the time
Thank you, please share any thoughts regarding high bid ask spread at market open.
MrJedi
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by MrJedi »

I'm not sure how M1 works but orders performed at opening cross do not have a spread.
Nathan Drake
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading

Post by Nathan Drake »

sharukh wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:01 pm
Nathan Drake wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 10:02 pm I don’t think it matters at all for long term buy and hold

The market is volatile all the time
Thank you, please share any thoughts regarding high bid ask spread at market open.
The automated bid/ask spreads haven’t been high for me.

I think it’s more important for your money to be invested as soon as possible and held for the long term. If M1 enables you to do that, then it’s to your advantage
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Impatience
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by Impatience »

Trading volume is relatively high at the open, that’s a good time for them to make the trades, there will be plenty of liquidity.
stimulacra
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by stimulacra »

M1 executes in the morning.

My Vanguard rebalances after close.

I feel it evens out. I don't think about it.
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jason2459
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by jason2459 »

No issues what so ever. The full automation of the platform into my set allocations for the long term it will make no difference.
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CyclingDuo
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by CyclingDuo »

sharukh wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:51 pm Hi,

I opened a m1 finance account. Learnt that all trades will occur at 9:30 am. It is highly volatile at that time. High bid ask spread at market open. I guess m1 finance gets better money for them for generating traffic at market open from exchanges.

As a investor how much of a concern it is ? (Volatile Market time and high bid ask spread)
Something to stay away or not a big deal ?

Even using their m1 plus, I cannot disable morning market open trade window. Guess it is a very good money maker for them.

Thank you.
If you are concerned, use the afternoon trading window at M1.
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel
Topic Author
sharukh
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by sharukh »

CyclingDuo wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:16 am
sharukh wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:51 pm Hi,

I opened a m1 finance account. Learnt that all trades will occur at 9:30 am. It is highly volatile at that time. High bid ask spread at market open. I guess m1 finance gets better money for them for generating traffic at market open from exchanges.

As a investor how much of a concern it is ? (Volatile Market time and high bid ask spread)
Something to stay away or not a big deal ?

Even using their m1 plus, I cannot disable morning market open trade window. Guess it is a very good money maker for them.

Thank you.
If you are concerned, use the afternoon trading window at M1.
I signed up for m1 primarily for their smart transfer and automatic investment. If one uses smart transfer then it uses only morning window only, no option to choose otherwise.

Every downturn, I capitulate a bit. Sell a little stock and stop buying from paycheck.100% stock, so no rebalancing. Smart transfer will take care of that. So I got interested in smart transfer. But it uses only morning window
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CyclingDuo
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by CyclingDuo »

sharukh wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:27 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:16 am
sharukh wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:51 pm Hi,

I opened a m1 finance account. Learnt that all trades will occur at 9:30 am. It is highly volatile at that time. High bid ask spread at market open. I guess m1 finance gets better money for them for generating traffic at market open from exchanges.

As a investor how much of a concern it is ? (Volatile Market time and high bid ask spread)
Something to stay away or not a big deal ?

Even using their m1 plus, I cannot disable morning market open trade window. Guess it is a very good money maker for them.

Thank you.
If you are concerned, use the afternoon trading window at M1.
I signed up for m1 primarily for their smart transfer and automatic investment. If one uses smart transfer then it uses only morning window only, no option to choose otherwise.

Every downturn, I capitulate a bit. Sell a little stock and stop buying from paycheck.100% stock, so no rebalancing. Smart transfer will take care of that. So I got interested in smart transfer. But it uses only morning window
M1 Plus - and the afternoon window is an option.
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel
livesoft
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by livesoft »

MrJedi wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:05 pm I'm not sure how M1 works but orders performed at opening cross do not have a spread.
I wanted to ask the OP if they understood this comment and whether they know if M1 transactions are at the Opening Cross without any bid/ask spread. It sure seems that M1 would explicitly tell their clients all about this. So this might be lack of communication between M1 and clients ... or something else.
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burritoLover
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by burritoLover »

The bid ask spread will depend on the liquidity of the ETFs in question. Are you investing in botique-style low volume ETFs?
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by AlohaJoe »

livesoft wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:55 am
MrJedi wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 11:05 pm I'm not sure how M1 works but orders performed at opening cross do not have a spread.
I wanted to ask the OP if they understood this comment and whether they know if M1 transactions are at the Opening Cross without any bid/ask spread. It sure seems that M1 would explicitly tell their clients all about this. So this might be lack of communication between M1 and clients ... or something else.
M1 doesn't specify how it works exactly. They say something vague like "the trading window opens at 9:30 and stays open until all trades are completed". Which could mean....anything.

The trading window used to be at 10am and only moved to 9:30 relatively recently. The change was due to customer demand, from what I understand.
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sharukh
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by sharukh »

CyclingDuo wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:50 am
sharukh wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:27 am
CyclingDuo wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:16 am
sharukh wrote: Tue Nov 23, 2021 9:51 pm Hi,

I opened a m1 finance account. Learnt that all trades will occur at 9:30 am. It is highly volatile at that time. High bid ask spread at market open. I guess m1 finance gets better money for them for generating traffic at market open from exchanges.

As a investor how much of a concern it is ? (Volatile Market time and high bid ask spread)
Something to stay away or not a big deal ?

Even using their m1 plus, I cannot disable morning market open trade window. Guess it is a very good money maker for them.

Thank you.
If you are concerned, use the afternoon trading window at M1.
I signed up for m1 primarily for their smart transfer and automatic investment. If one uses smart transfer then it uses only morning window only, no option to choose otherwise.

Every downturn, I capitulate a bit. Sell a little stock and stop buying from paycheck.100% stock, so no rebalancing. Smart transfer will take care of that. So I got interested in smart transfer. But it uses only morning window
M1 Plus - and the afternoon window is an option.
I have registered for M1 plus.
To use afternoon window: two options:
1. Place order after morning window time is over
2. Ensure deposits happen after the morning window is over , for auto-invest.

All smart deposit and automated recurring deposits happen overnight, so it uses the next open window: i.e. morning window.
no option to disable morning window.

If one has to use afternoon window then it has to be manual orders only, which negates all the benefits of auto-invest and smart transfer
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sharukh
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by sharukh »

burritoLover wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:56 am The bid ask spread will depend on the liquidity of the ETFs in question. Are you investing in botique-style low volume ETFs?
Just VTI/VXUS and ITOT/IXUS
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by burritoLover »

sharukh wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:20 am
burritoLover wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:56 am The bid ask spread will depend on the liquidity of the ETFs in question. Are you investing in botique-style low volume ETFs?
Just VTI/VXUS and ITOT/IXUS
Yeah, really a non-issue.
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by atdharris »

Sort of related to M1.... does anyone use their "checking" that earns 1% to hold spare cash? And if you do, does that count towards how much you can borrow at 2%? I have a small amount of money at M1 in NTSX since Merrill doesn't allow me to hold it there and have M1 Plus. I can't figure out how their checking works.
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by CyclingDuo »

sharukh wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:20 amIf one has to use afternoon window then it has to be manual orders only, which negates all the benefits of auto-invest and smart transfer.
Then I guess you will have to settle for one over the other: auto invest with transfer vs. concerns regarding purchases made beginning at the 9:30 AM trade window.

As a LTB&H investor, it should all work out over the longer term. :beer
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel
privateer79
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by privateer79 »

I try not to trade much but i had some dividends that accumulated and wanted to put funds to work. I got a little bit scalped.... like M1's "at open price" was the worst price on CNBC ticker at 9:50. like 1.5% over actual open with lots of prior ticker action.

also note, if you have a spin-off they auto-sell the security because "well you didn't have that security in your portfolio pie".

I'm in constant fear that their "auto rebalance" function will kick on and trigger a capital-gains-pocalypse. (only a concern for taxable accounts obviously)

IMO its a s**t show. I'm just waiting out the transfer bonus time to elapse to move on..
MrJedi
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by MrJedi »

privateer79 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:05 am I try not to trade much but i had some dividends that accumulated and wanted to put funds to work. I got a little bit scalped.... like M1's "at open price" was the worst price on CNBC ticker at 9:50. like 1.5% over actual open with lots of prior ticker action.

also note, if you have a spin-off they auto-sell the security because "well you didn't have that security in your portfolio pie".

I'm in constant fear that their "auto rebalance" function will kick on and trigger a capital-gains-pocalypse. (only a concern for taxable accounts obviously)

IMO its a s**t show. I'm just waiting out the transfer bonus time to elapse to move on..
Interesting. I do not know much about M1 but what you suggest sounds like they don't submit and execute orders for the opening cross.
calwatch
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by calwatch »

Nor do they for the afternoon auction, which has always discouraged me from using M1 compared to your standard market or limit on open/close order, and just eat the few pennies of margin interest option if it comes up higher or lower than my target price.
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sharukh
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by sharukh »

privateer79 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:05 am I try not to trade much but i had some dividends that accumulated and wanted to put funds to work. I got a little bit scalped.... like M1's "at open price" was the worst price on CNBC ticker at 9:50. like 1.5% over actual open with lots of prior ticker action.

also note, if you have a spin-off they auto-sell the security because "well you didn't have that security in your portfolio pie".

I'm in constant fear that their "auto rebalance" function will kick on and trigger a capital-gains-pocalypse. (only a concern for taxable accounts obviously)

IMO its a s**t show. I'm just waiting out the transfer bonus time to elapse to move on..
Hi privateer79,

Was this scalping on popular ETF like VTI/VXUS ?
What is a spin-off ?

Thank you.
privateer79
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by privateer79 »

sharukh wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 2:48 pm
privateer79 wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 11:05 am I try not to trade much but i had some dividends that accumulated and wanted to put funds to work. I got a little bit scalped.... like M1's "at open price" was the worst price on CNBC ticker at 9:50. like 1.5% over actual open with lots of prior ticker action.

also note, if you have a spin-off they auto-sell the security because "well you didn't have that security in your portfolio pie".

I'm in constant fear that their "auto rebalance" function will kick on and trigger a capital-gains-pocalypse. (only a concern for taxable accounts obviously)

IMO its a s**t show. I'm just waiting out the transfer bonus time to elapse to move on..
Hi privateer79,

Was this scalping on popular ETF like VTI/VXUS ?
it was on a stock with a ~500 B $ Market cap.
What is a spin-off ?
its when a company breaks itself into a few different pieces and they trade under individual ticker symbols.... here's a recent example:
https://newsroom.ibm.com/2021-11-03-IBM ... of-Kyndryl
cat_guy
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by cat_guy »

atdharris wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:42 am does anyone use their "checking" that earns 1% to hold spare cash? And if you do, does that count towards how much you can borrow at 2%? I have a small amount of money at M1 in NTSX since Merrill doesn't allow me to hold it there and have M1 Plus. I can't figure out how their checking works.
Yep, I use it. it's great! Im surprised it doesn't come up more in the many "what should I do with 100 grand for 10 months?" discussions.

No, savings doesn't count toward how much you can borrow.
atdharris
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by atdharris »

cat_guy wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:59 pm
atdharris wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 10:42 am does anyone use their "checking" that earns 1% to hold spare cash? And if you do, does that count towards how much you can borrow at 2%? I have a small amount of money at M1 in NTSX since Merrill doesn't allow me to hold it there and have M1 Plus. I can't figure out how their checking works.
Yep, I use it. it's great! Im surprised it doesn't come up more in the many "what should I do with 100 grand for 10 months?" discussions.

No, savings doesn't count toward how much you can borrow.
Ah, ok. I am considering moving the savings I have at Marcus over to M1. I suppose I could put some cash into a short-term treasury ETF to increase my borrowing power.
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Re: M1 finance morning window trading - how much concern due to high volatility in 9:30 am trading and high bid ask spre

Post by lazynovice »

sharukh wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 7:20 am
burritoLover wrote: Wed Nov 24, 2021 6:56 am The bid ask spread will depend on the liquidity of the ETFs in question. Are you investing in botique-style low volume ETFs?
Just VTI/VXUS and ITOT/IXUS
I don’t like to place trades close to open or close but sometimes I don’t have a choice. If I have a busy day, I go ahead and place it at open. I have not observed wider bid/ask spreads at open for the ETFs you are looking at. I suppose they might be 2 cents which is 100% more than 1 cent, but on a $200 share price or even a $50 share price, I don’t care about a penny.

The price volatility is what would bother me, but I think the volatility can work for you as much as against you- unless someone has data that says otherwise.
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