Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
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OohLaLa
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by OohLaLa »

Socal77 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:35 pm
watchnerd wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:18 pm
Socal77 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 5:16 pm
The way I see it people that win the capitalism game relative to others in any era can Darwinianly dominate others. This not stated with ill thought. So the smartest will be at the top while others can be ruined. Recently over lunch I spoke with a crypto enthusiast who just got messaged from his friend who lost $200 buying some new "crypto Asset." :)
Hasn't it always been so?

JP Morgan, Hearst, Carnegie were not called "robber barons" for nothing.
Yes of course. I'm just trying to get a birds eye view of crypto and related technologies.

I intend to stay centered as a 3 fund Boglehead and don't need to take any undue risk. It's just that I keep getting involved in Crypto conversations with friends and want to have a pragmatic view on the subject.
You don't need to know much at all. Just make sure you don't engage in crypto discussions with any knowledgeable people, as they will sniff you out as a poser.

Go on coinmarketcap and find some popular examples. Then, look up short summaries of the projects and key figures behind them. Then, google for "[name of project] controversy". Bonus points if you take the time to find some obscure, contender altcoins and can namedrop them as potential replacements. Never admit you know less than you put on.

See below, for possible results:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yX0IDdJMxko
DB2
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by DB2 »

watchnerd wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:20 pm
DB2 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 1:08 pm A number of people, especially younger people, will be forced to liquidate their crypto for expenses, layoffs, etc.
And to add to this, crypto markets have more panic "bank run" potential thank stocks, given they have 0 circuit breakers and trade 24/7/365 around the world. There is no "cooling off" period.

I've never seem a graph of crypto holdings by nation, but I've read there are pockets of intense concentration, such as South Korea.

You could get a localized crisis that spawns into global contagion pretty quickly.

All that being said, I'm still holding at market weights.
Agreed.

Hey, I am still hanging onto my 2,480 shares of Doge purchased at .12 cents a share with a little play money. I already took some profits, so what's left is what's left. :happy
decapod10
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by decapod10 »

Socal77 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:57 pm
watchnerd wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:32 pm
FIREchief wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:31 pm
If 1/3 go to zero, the others will fall like a house of cards. Aren't they all fundamentally the same nonsense? (I ask because I know absolutely nothing about cryptocurrencies) :D
Not at all.

They are a highly heterogenous bunch.

You have satirical meme coins intermixed with distributed applications and protocols, smart contract software foundations living alongside pop culture.
So in the end, complex new legitimate and illegitimate formulas which may or may not solve problems can make some people wealthy at the expense of others.

Is this a fair assessment?
I mean, if that's how you see the dot com era, then maybe. Lots of people got rich, lots of people lost money. The internet was not a scam, but doesn't mean there weren't both good and bad companies/actors attached to it. Some of the biggest winners of all time came out of it, some catastrophic failures too.

Is crypto the next internet or is it Betamax? Hard to say, maybe we will know 5 years from now.
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watchnerd
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by watchnerd »

DB2 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:03 pm Hey, I am still hanging onto my 2,480 shares of Doge purchased at .12 cents a share with a little play money. I already took some profits, so what's left is what's left. :happy
I'm just going to diamond hands it all the way to at least 2025, see if my $100k+ investment really does become worth $1M 5 years from now like the stock to flow model suggests.

https://www.lookintobitcoin.com/charts/ ... low-model/

I'm highly skeptical.

But that would line up nicely with my early retirement plans.
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YeahBuddy
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by YeahBuddy »

And down goes bitcoin again. Because of 1 tweet... Smh
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langlands
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by langlands »

RobLyons wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:30 pm And down goes bitcoin again. Because of 1 tweet... Smh
Bitcoin is not the only asset that can be moved with one tweet. A former president could move the entire stock market with one tweet...
txhill
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by txhill »

Interesting news for SHIB investors. Vitalik will burn most of the remaining tokens and asks not to be sent additional coins in the future (which was always an unfair practice by meme coins): https://twitter.com/ricburton/status/13 ... 16160?s=21
YeahBuddy
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by YeahBuddy »

langlands wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:48 pm
RobLyons wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 6:30 pm And down goes bitcoin again. Because of 1 tweet... Smh
Bitcoin is not the only asset that can be moved with one tweet. A former president could move the entire stock market with one tweet...

True! Quite extreme situations.
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Hustlinghustling
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by Hustlinghustling »

it’s interesting to see recent entrants to bitcoin already get bored of it plateauing for a few months. seems if there was another 2 years of declines or just stagnation like 2018-2020, there’d be a lot of dumping instead of accumulating.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by watchnerd »

Hustlinghustling wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:50 pm it’s interesting to see recent entrants to bitcoin already get bored of it plateauing for a few months. seems if there was another 2 years of declines or just stagnation like 2018-2020, there’d be a lot of dumping instead of accumulating.
Crypto, in general, is probably behaviorally problematic for many people.

You get a year's worth of stock market volatility every month.

Or even sometimes in 1 week.
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Hustlinghustling
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by Hustlinghustling »

watchnerd wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:57 pm
Hustlinghustling wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 7:50 pm it’s interesting to see recent entrants to bitcoin already get bored of it plateauing for a few months. seems if there was another 2 years of declines or just stagnation like 2018-2020, there’d be a lot of dumping instead of accumulating.
Crypto, in general, is probably behaviorally problematic for many people.

You get a year's worth of stock market volatility every month.

Or even sometimes in 1 week.
ya, hard to have longview for most. outcome is just performance chasing though as opposed to any real conviction. or it’s legitimating term, “momentum trading” where buying high and selling low is the smart money
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watchnerd
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by watchnerd »

Hustlinghustling wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:16 pm ya, hard to have longview for most. outcome is just performance chasing though as opposed to any real conviction. or it’s legitimating term, “momentum trading” where buying high and selling low is the smart money
Holding GBTC and ETHE in my Roth not only has a tax advantage, but a behavioral one:

I know I can't touch the money for years no matter what, so no point in worrying over what happens in the short run.
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flyfishers83
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by flyfishers83 »

decapod10 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:33 pm
FIREchief wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:31 pm
watchnerd wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:25 pm
txhill wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:17 pm

Yeah it makes it fun :) it’s also a certainty that like a third of the top 50 coins will be worthless within 5 years. Crazy times, still very early. Hopefully ETH isn’t one of those!
More than 1/3rd, i think.
If 1/3 go to zero, the others will fall like a house of cards. Aren't they all fundamentally the same nonsense? (I ask because I know absolutely nothing about cryptocurrencies) :D
No, they are all quite different. If you're actually curious about it, the most useful thing to learn is the difference between Bitcoin and Ethereum.

But I agree with the prevailing notion that many of these coins will crash in value at some point.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by flyfishers83 »

decapod10 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:33 pm
FIREchief wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 3:31 pm
watchnerd wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:25 pm
txhill wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:17 pm

Yeah it makes it fun :) it’s also a certainty that like a third of the top 50 coins will be worthless within 5 years. Crazy times, still very early. Hopefully ETH isn’t one of those!
More than 1/3rd, i think.
If 1/3 go to zero, the others will fall like a house of cards. Aren't they all fundamentally the same nonsense? (I ask because I know absolutely nothing about cryptocurrencies) :D
No, they are all quite different. If you're actually curious about it, the most useful thing to learn is the difference between Bitcoin and Ethereum.

But I agree with the prevailing notion that many of these coins will crash in value at some point.
I agree that many of the coins are different, but I don’t know that valuations reflect that difference. So my suspicion is that race to zero will infect lots of coins. Hard to figure out how to use that belief.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by Prahasaurus »

sarala wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:26 pm
Prahasaurus wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 11:54 pm
decapod10 wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:44 pm
txhill wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:09 pm
watchnerd wrote: Sat May 15, 2021 10:03 pm

I think there is some logic in this framing:

DOGE = BTC hedge
ADA = ETH hedge

That is, if you think BTC still has any pretense to be 'money'.

If it's just "digital gold" to use as reserve asset and not use a medium of exchange, then maybe DOGE and BTC don't compete at all.

Although DOGE could probably kill off Litecoin.
Two weeks ago I felt pretty confident that I understood the narrative for each coin and would have agreed with your take. Now I feel like I have no clue at all! I think your index based approach is a smart way to play it. I wonder if an equal weight approach (maybe equal amounts of each of the top 15 coins or so) would be even better than market cap weighted given the volatility in the space. For me I just really see how ETH fills the space so I am just buying ETH for the time being, even if it can’t possibly grow as much as smaller cap coins.
If you like the smart contract function of ETH, you could make an “index fund” of sorts of just smart contract blockchain and ignore the rest.

ETH, Binance, ADA, Polkadot, Solana, EOS, Tezos, Vechain. Those are the ones I can think of off the top of my head. If you believe in smart contact blockchain, it is likely the winner will be one of those unless I am forgetting one. It basically ignores all the meme coins and the DeFi tokens which make up most of the others. Also excludes BTC.
ADA does not support smart contracts. They've been talking about it for 4 years. But have never delivered anything, other than lots of powerpoint slides and tweets. I think that project is very happy to keep you focused on their shiny new future and not the existing reality, as then everyone will realize they've been had.
Praha, what do you have against ADA? except from the loud leader I have not heard anything bad about them... please elaborate
Yes, I admit some of my vitriol is a bit irrational, simply because Charles is one of the most obnoxious people in crypto. I just don't want to be associated with someone that toxic, especially when community is key. This will come back to bite ADA, because they are still very much centralized and dependent on Charles, just as Ethereum was very dependent in the early years (no longer) on Vitalik. But Vitalik is a kind person who is always trying to bring people together, the exact opposite of Charles. And it no longer matters for Ethereum, because they have jumped the chasm to full decentralization. Unlike Cardano.

More importantly, ADA has done nothing since its inception but make empty promises. Everything people on this board criticize crypto for is encapsulated in ADA: hype, no value, no revenue, etc. They have done nothing but make empty promises and my feeling is they will never do anything. That Charles has figured out that so long as they never actually release anything INTO PRODUCTION, they still have the perfect crypto project (theoretically). I repeat, Cardano doesn't even have smart contracts, the bread and butter of blockchain!!! If you like ADA, if you have invested your money, can you at least tell me when Cardano will go live with smart contracts? In actual production, the equivalent of Ethereum's mainnet? Can you give me a date? It's not a minor feature, it's actually the core of what it's supposed to do!

Sooner or later, Cardano will need to go live. Eventually more people will cotton on to what is happening. Not "go live" with silly things like staking ADA coins to make more ADA coins (again, exactly what people here think about crypto), but actually go live where users' money is at stake and the entire world will be looking to break your system, something that Ethereum has endured for years.

I'm not saying ADA is worth 0, I'm saying it's been hyped and hyped by its founder, and now by all the early speculators who own a ton of ADA and can't see straight, that there is no way to go but down once they need to deliver. And Charles knows this, which is why he will be reluctant to ever put anything in production. At that point, he loses control of the narrative, which will be devastating for Cardano.

Charles has a great gig. He gets to use foundation money to fly around the world and lobby governments, to talk about the bright, shiny future of crypto, to lobby celebrities and fellow narcissists on how great Cardano will be one day, once it's finally released. He is the superstar in his own reality show production. All he needs to do now is keep the powerpoints coming. The market is eating it up.
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Prahasaurus
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by Prahasaurus »

This recent exchange between Charles and Mark Cuban sums it up nicely. Cuban simply asked what can he do now with ADA. What benefit is the Cardano ecosystem (cough cough, there is no ecosystem) providing users, what applications are interesting as a user, etc. And of course, the answer is zero. Nothing. But Charles can't say that. So he invites Cuban to his "ranch in Colorado" to discuss, no doubt over wine and cigars. I'm sure this works great on other millionaires/billionaires who don't have a clue, especially about crypto.

https://twitter.com/mcuban/status/1393646131708665858
Levity aside Charles, whenever someone pitching me tells me it has to be in person, that's a red flag. I know this isn't a pitch. But would love to know , Where do you use ADA on a daily basis ? How should or could I use it today ? I can answer this for all the crypto I own.
Charles has nothing to show, he can't answer the simple question of how ADA is working today, so he tries to wine and dine Cuban in person. Again, I am sure this is highly effective on government officials or VIPs with little understanding of the differences between DOGE, BTC, ETH, and AAVE. But the problem for Charles is Cuban knows crypto well, he even programs in Solidity, he has started to write smart contracts himself, etc. He is no empty suit, like the rest of the people with money that Charles lobbies.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by decapod10 »

flyfishers83 wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 8:28 pm
I agree that many of the coins are different, but I don’t know that valuations reflect that difference. So my suspicion is that race to zero will infect lots of coins. Hard to figure out how to use that belief.
It is extremely dangerous to short "garbage coins" (since I probably can't use the proper term here, lol), so there's probably not much you can do. You can either look for projects that you believe are valuable and invest in them, ignore crypto altogether, or diversify among different cryptocurrencies hoping that the space will grow as a whole.
sarala wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 4:26 pm

Praha, what do you have against ADA? except from the loud leader I have not heard anything bad about them... please elaborate
As Prahasaurus mentioned, Cardano/ADA does not support smart contracts currently. That is the biggest knock against Cardano. You cannot have DeFi on Cardano today because it literally cannot support it. They do plan to go live with smart contracts in August, however this was delayed from April.

Cardano supposedly has a lot of benefits over Ethereum on paper, however until it can actually run dApps, it is all theoretical. Cardano can claim they have lower gas fees the Ethereum, but it cannot be proven until they handle the same amount of traffic that Ethereum does. Cardano will have low gas fees now because there are so few transactions on it.

That being said, it is always possible that everything could work out, you never know. Ethereum still has to transition to 2.0, there is always a chance that it falters. Or Cardano could just turn out to be really awesome and overtake Ethereum. Or they could co-exist also. The question does that chance make Cardano worth 1/6 to 1/7 of Ethereum? Up to each person to decide.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by HomerJ »

Prahasaurus wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 11:39 pm This recent exchange between Charles and Mark Cuban sums it up nicely. Cuban simply asked what can he do now with ADA. What benefit is the Cardano ecosystem (cough cough, there is no ecosystem) providing users, what applications are interesting as a user, etc. And of course, the answer is zero. Nothing. But Charles can't say that. So he invites Cuban to his "ranch in Colorado" to discuss, no doubt over wine and cigars. I'm sure this works great on other millionaires/billionaires who don't have a clue, especially about crypto.

https://twitter.com/mcuban/status/1393646131708665858
Levity aside Charles, whenever someone pitching me tells me it has to be in person, that's a red flag. I know this isn't a pitch. But would love to know , Where do you use ADA on a daily basis ? How should or could I use it today ? I can answer this for all the crypto I own.
Charles has nothing to show, he can't answer the simple question of how ADA is working today, so he tries to wine and dine Cuban in person. Again, I am sure this is highly effective on government officials or VIPs with little understanding of the differences between DOGE, BTC, ETH, and AAVE. But the problem for Charles is Cuban knows crypto well, he even programs in Solidity, he has started to write smart contracts himself, etc. He is no empty suit, like the rest of the people with money that Charles lobbies.
You know, this is the exact same question I asked you about bitcoin when you first appeared on this site, talking about how bitcoin was the future.

"Where would I use bitcoin on a daily basis? How should or could I use it today?"

I don't remember you thinking my question was wise and illuminating a real problem back then. :(
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by HomerJ »

decapod10 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:07 amCardano supposedly has a lot of benefits over Ethereum on paper, however until it can actually run dApps, it is all theoretical. Cardano can claim they have lower gas fees the Ethereum, but it cannot be proven until they handle the same amount of traffic that Ethereum does. Cardano will have low gas fees now because there are so few transactions on it.

That being said, it is always possible that everything could work out, you never know. Ethereum still has to transition to 2.0, there is always a chance that it falters. Or Cardano could just turn out to be really awesome and overtake Ethereum. Or they could co-exist also. The question does that chance make Cardano worth 1/6 to 1/7 of Ethereum? Up to each person to decide.
Until Ethereum transitions to 2.0 and PoS, it's technically still in the theoretical column as well.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by Prahasaurus »

HomerJ wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:16 am
Prahasaurus wrote: Sun May 16, 2021 11:39 pm This recent exchange between Charles and Mark Cuban sums it up nicely. Cuban simply asked what can he do now with ADA. What benefit is the Cardano ecosystem (cough cough, there is no ecosystem) providing users, what applications are interesting as a user, etc. And of course, the answer is zero. Nothing. But Charles can't say that. So he invites Cuban to his "ranch in Colorado" to discuss, no doubt over wine and cigars. I'm sure this works great on other millionaires/billionaires who don't have a clue, especially about crypto.

https://twitter.com/mcuban/status/1393646131708665858
Levity aside Charles, whenever someone pitching me tells me it has to be in person, that's a red flag. I know this isn't a pitch. But would love to know , Where do you use ADA on a daily basis ? How should or could I use it today ? I can answer this for all the crypto I own.
Charles has nothing to show, he can't answer the simple question of how ADA is working today, so he tries to wine and dine Cuban in person. Again, I am sure this is highly effective on government officials or VIPs with little understanding of the differences between DOGE, BTC, ETH, and AAVE. But the problem for Charles is Cuban knows crypto well, he even programs in Solidity, he has started to write smart contracts himself, etc. He is no empty suit, like the rest of the people with money that Charles lobbies.
You know, this is the exact same question I asked you about bitcoin when you first appeared on this site, talking about how bitcoin was the future.

"Where would I use bitcoin on a daily basis? How should or could I use it today?"

I don't remember you thinking my question was wise and illuminating a real problem back then. :(
Bitcoin is different from ADA. It's a hedge against fiat debasement. ADA, on the other hand, is a smart contracts platform (that doesn’t yet support smart contracts!) and needs to show utility. That is what Cuban is asking, where is the utility?

You continue to go astray by lumping all crypto projects together into one group.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by Prahasaurus »

HomerJ wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:18 am
decapod10 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:07 amCardano supposedly has a lot of benefits over Ethereum on paper, however until it can actually run dApps, it is all theoretical. Cardano can claim they have lower gas fees the Ethereum, but it cannot be proven until they handle the same amount of traffic that Ethereum does. Cardano will have low gas fees now because there are so few transactions on it.

That being said, it is always possible that everything could work out, you never know. Ethereum still has to transition to 2.0, there is always a chance that it falters. Or Cardano could just turn out to be really awesome and overtake Ethereum. Or they could co-exist also. The question does that chance make Cardano worth 1/6 to 1/7 of Ethereum? Up to each person to decide.
Until Ethereum transitions to 2.0 and PoS, it's technically still in the theoretical column as well.
Only someone with little knowledge of crypto can refer to Ethereum as theoretical. Just look at the top 50 projects in terms of revenue. Yes, Ethereum continues to develop. There will never be a final version. But it’s delivering value to users today.

When ADA actually goes into production with smart contracts, we can start to discuss how Cardano compares to Ethereum in production. Not on a PowerPoint slide.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by decapod10 »

HomerJ wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:18 am
decapod10 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:07 amCardano supposedly has a lot of benefits over Ethereum on paper, however until it can actually run dApps, it is all theoretical. Cardano can claim they have lower gas fees the Ethereum, but it cannot be proven until they handle the same amount of traffic that Ethereum does. Cardano will have low gas fees now because there are so few transactions on it.

That being said, it is always possible that everything could work out, you never know. Ethereum still has to transition to 2.0, there is always a chance that it falters. Or Cardano could just turn out to be really awesome and overtake Ethereum. Or they could co-exist also. The question does that chance make Cardano worth 1/6 to 1/7 of Ethereum? Up to each person to decide.
Until Ethereum transitions to 2.0 and PoS, it's technically still in the theoretical column as well.
That is an argument made by Cardano proponents, yes. That Cardano will have a "complete" network before Ethereum does if they hit their deadlines (August for Cardano and December for Ethereum). Ethereum does have a 2.0 network live since late 2020, but it is also true that it is not handling much traffic.

I personally dont find it convincing enough, so I put my bets on Ethereum, but that is for each person to decide. And as I mentioned, I wouldn't rule anything out. Lots of people own both Ether and ADA as well.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by Prahasaurus »

decapod10 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:38 am
HomerJ wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:18 am
decapod10 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:07 amCardano supposedly has a lot of benefits over Ethereum on paper, however until it can actually run dApps, it is all theoretical. Cardano can claim they have lower gas fees the Ethereum, but it cannot be proven until they handle the same amount of traffic that Ethereum does. Cardano will have low gas fees now because there are so few transactions on it.

That being said, it is always possible that everything could work out, you never know. Ethereum still has to transition to 2.0, there is always a chance that it falters. Or Cardano could just turn out to be really awesome and overtake Ethereum. Or they could co-exist also. The question does that chance make Cardano worth 1/6 to 1/7 of Ethereum? Up to each person to decide.
Until Ethereum transitions to 2.0 and PoS, it's technically still in the theoretical column as well.
That is an argument made by Cardano proponents, yes. That Cardano will have a "complete" network before Ethereum does if they hit their deadlines (August for Cardano and December for Ethereum). Ethereum does have a 2.0 network live since late 2020, but it is also true that it is not handling much traffic.

I personally dont find it convincing enough, so I put my bets on Ethereum, but that is for each person to decide. And as I mentioned, I wouldn't rule anything out. Lots of people own both Ether and ADA as well.
When Cardano delivers something that actually works in production, I will reevaluate. Until then, it’s in the XRP camp.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

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Interesting new dynamic is the divorce of Elon Musk and the crypto community, it's like the tech scene splitting in two, beforehand QQQ/ARKK/Tesla/Bitcoin were all on the same page and all moving to the top right on the chart. As the tech growth story disintegrates there will be in-fighting and recrimination.
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Forester wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:00 am Interesting new dynamic is the divorce of Elon Musk and the crypto community, it's like the tech scene splitting in two, beforehand QQQ/ARKK/Tesla/Bitcoin were all on the same page and all moving to the top right on the chart. As the tech growth story disintegrates there will be in-fighting and recrimination.
LOL.

Yeah, tech growth is going to disintegrate. Let's all bet against technology! /s
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

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Prahasaurus wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:07 am
Forester wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:00 am Interesting new dynamic is the divorce of Elon Musk and the crypto community, it's like the tech scene splitting in two, beforehand QQQ/ARKK/Tesla/Bitcoin were all on the same page and all moving to the top right on the chart. As the tech growth story disintegrates there will be in-fighting and recrimination.
LOL.

Yeah, tech growth is going to disintegrate. Let's all bet against technology! /s
Disintegrate = case for stock price appreciation goes away. Some remain excellent businesses but they go sideways for a decade, others disappear.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by Prahasaurus »

Forester wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:10 am
Prahasaurus wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:07 am
Forester wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:00 am Interesting new dynamic is the divorce of Elon Musk and the crypto community, it's like the tech scene splitting in two, beforehand QQQ/ARKK/Tesla/Bitcoin were all on the same page and all moving to the top right on the chart. As the tech growth story disintegrates there will be in-fighting and recrimination.
LOL.

Yeah, tech growth is going to disintegrate. Let's all bet against technology! /s
Disintegrate = case for stock price appreciation goes away. Some remain excellent businesses but they go sideways for a decade, others disappear.
Aha. Ok, from the tech growth story disintegrates to Some remain excellent businesses... And I have to say the thought of "some" tech companies moving sideways for "a decade" seems a bit far fetched. The crypto total market cap is 2 trillion USD or so. I will bet a lot of money (I am betting a lot of money) that number will rise substantially over 10 years. Still, we shall see!
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by Forester »

Prahasaurus wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:14 am
Forester wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:10 am
Prahasaurus wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:07 am
Forester wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:00 am Interesting new dynamic is the divorce of Elon Musk and the crypto community, it's like the tech scene splitting in two, beforehand QQQ/ARKK/Tesla/Bitcoin were all on the same page and all moving to the top right on the chart. As the tech growth story disintegrates there will be in-fighting and recrimination.
LOL.

Yeah, tech growth is going to disintegrate. Let's all bet against technology! /s
Disintegrate = case for stock price appreciation goes away. Some remain excellent businesses but they go sideways for a decade, others disappear.
Aha. Ok, from the tech growth story disintegrates to Some remain excellent businesses... And I have to say the thought of "some" tech companies moving sideways for "a decade" seems a bit far fetched. The crypto total market cap is 2 trillion USD or so. I will bet a lot of money (I am betting a lot of money) that number will rise substantially over 10 years. Still, we shall see!
I view crypto currencies as an online 24/7 casino, so the expected return to crypto tokens is zero, minus costs. Around 50% of participants will gain a profit. Even if crypto tokens have no fundamental value or use case, they can still be oversold or overbought from a technical POV. Realistically they cannot be outlawed, therefore they will always exist and always be speculated upon. Crypto tokens will always be in the news (2017, 2020/21) and out of the news (2018/19), relative to other speculative assets.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by YRT70 »

Forester wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 4:47 am I view crypto currencies as an online 24/7 casino, so the expected return to crypto tokens is zero, minus costs. Around 50% of participants will gain a profit.
Gambling is probably the most important use of crypto at the moment. I suspect less than 50% will make a profit because the house is also taking and because of whales that can manipulate the market.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by Gadget »

HomerJ wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:18 am
decapod10 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:07 amCardano supposedly has a lot of benefits over Ethereum on paper, however until it can actually run dApps, it is all theoretical. Cardano can claim they have lower gas fees the Ethereum, but it cannot be proven until they handle the same amount of traffic that Ethereum does. Cardano will have low gas fees now because there are so few transactions on it.

That being said, it is always possible that everything could work out, you never know. Ethereum still has to transition to 2.0, there is always a chance that it falters. Or Cardano could just turn out to be really awesome and overtake Ethereum. Or they could co-exist also. The question does that chance make Cardano worth 1/6 to 1/7 of Ethereum? Up to each person to decide.
Until Ethereum transitions to 2.0 and PoS, it's technically still in the theoretical column as well.
I think the part you're missing are the current transaction statistics. The ETH 2.0 merge is future. Just like ADA smart contracts are off in the future. Let's talk about today.

Today, the 7 day average of actual fees paid DAILY on ETH is $69 million. I think you'd agree, even with high transaction costs currently, that this means there is just so much network traffic that people are willing to pay actual crypto that they could have cashed in for dollars on something. You may not agree with the use case for that something, but obviously a large number of people do.

If you scroll way down the list at https://cryptofees.info/ you'll find Cardano. Its 7 day average of fees paid DAILY is $26,000. Even if you make the claim that their transactions are cheaper (they are significantly), why isn't everyone using Cardano? Shouldn't its lower transaction fees encourage more network usage? The answer is because it can't do any of the things today that ETH can.

Just to put those numbers into different context... Cardano network fees are currently 0.0376% of ETH's fees. Yet the market cap for Cardano is 17% of Ethereum.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by watchnerd »

Gadget wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 9:13 am Just to put those numbers into different context... Cardano network fees are currently 0.0376% of ETH's fees. Yet the market cap for Cardano is 17% of Ethereum.
I think that's reflecting an 'Ethereum hedge' premium.

If ETH's price goes up after July, I'll be curious to see if, proportionally, ADA moves with it.

Or does the opposite and tanks as FUD gets removed from the Ethereum story.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by typical.investor »

Gadget wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 9:13 am
HomerJ wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:18 am
decapod10 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:07 amCardano supposedly has a lot of benefits over Ethereum on paper, however until it can actually run dApps, it is all theoretical. Cardano can claim they have lower gas fees the Ethereum, but it cannot be proven until they handle the same amount of traffic that Ethereum does. Cardano will have low gas fees now because there are so few transactions on it.

That being said, it is always possible that everything could work out, you never know. Ethereum still has to transition to 2.0, there is always a chance that it falters. Or Cardano could just turn out to be really awesome and overtake Ethereum. Or they could co-exist also. The question does that chance make Cardano worth 1/6 to 1/7 of Ethereum? Up to each person to decide.
Until Ethereum transitions to 2.0 and PoS, it's technically still in the theoretical column as well.
I think the part you're missing are the current transaction statistics. The ETH 2.0 merge is future. Just like ADA smart contracts are off in the future. Let's talk about today.

Today, the 7 day average of actual fees paid DAILY on ETH is $69 million. I think you'd agree, even with high transaction costs currently, that this means there is just so much network traffic that people are willing to pay actual crypto that they could have cashed in for dollars on something. You may not agree with the use case for that something, but obviously a large number of people do.

If you scroll way down the list at https://cryptofees.info/ you'll find Cardano. Its 7 day average of fees paid DAILY is $26,000. Even if you make the claim that their transactions are cheaper (they are significantly), why isn't everyone using Cardano? Shouldn't its lower transaction fees encourage more network usage? The answer is because it can't do any of the things today that ETH can.

Just to put those numbers into different context... Cardano network fees are currently 0.0376% of ETH's fees. Yet the market cap for Cardano is 17% of Ethereum.
I think you have twisted this inside out.

As ETH gets more valuable, transaction fees get more and more expensive when measured in USD. This is simply a fact.

That's it. So no, the lower market cap of Cardano is not necessarily because people are so willing to pay transaction fees on ETH because the smart contracts are so useful. The transaction fees are simply high because the ETH price is. Same with bitcoin.

Whether or not ETH does something with its contracts that adds value is another questions Some argue those contracts will raise the network congestion and raise the transaction fees. Some day people will examine whether the costs are worth it.

As it is, POW (proof of work by miners) seems extremely inefficient.

I'm curious what that $69 million in fees actually bought that Visa couldn't have done cheaper. But yeah, illegal transactions are always expensive.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by HomerJ »

Eth is making money, sure...

But it expanding rapidly is still theoretical. Until it transitions to Proof of Stake instead of Proof of Work, it's future is limited. It cannot scale at this point.

The entire crypto environment is always about what's just around the corner, but never quite getting there.

Technically, I am right at this point of time. The best kind of right... technically right. :)

But, sure it's possible, maybe even probable for Eth to fix it's problems. But until it does, it's future is also theoretical.
Last edited by HomerJ on Mon May 17, 2021 10:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by decapod10 »

typical.investor wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 9:37 am
Gadget wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 9:13 am
HomerJ wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:18 am
decapod10 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:07 amCardano supposedly has a lot of benefits over Ethereum on paper, however until it can actually run dApps, it is all theoretical. Cardano can claim they have lower gas fees the Ethereum, but it cannot be proven until they handle the same amount of traffic that Ethereum does. Cardano will have low gas fees now because there are so few transactions on it.

That being said, it is always possible that everything could work out, you never know. Ethereum still has to transition to 2.0, there is always a chance that it falters. Or Cardano could just turn out to be really awesome and overtake Ethereum. Or they could co-exist also. The question does that chance make Cardano worth 1/6 to 1/7 of Ethereum? Up to each person to decide.
Until Ethereum transitions to 2.0 and PoS, it's technically still in the theoretical column as well.
I think the part you're missing are the current transaction statistics. The ETH 2.0 merge is future. Just like ADA smart contracts are off in the future. Let's talk about today.

Today, the 7 day average of actual fees paid DAILY on ETH is $69 million. I think you'd agree, even with high transaction costs currently, that this means there is just so much network traffic that people are willing to pay actual crypto that they could have cashed in for dollars on something. You may not agree with the use case for that something, but obviously a large number of people do.

If you scroll way down the list at https://cryptofees.info/ you'll find Cardano. Its 7 day average of fees paid DAILY is $26,000. Even if you make the claim that their transactions are cheaper (they are significantly), why isn't everyone using Cardano? Shouldn't its lower transaction fees encourage more network usage? The answer is because it can't do any of the things today that ETH can.

Just to put those numbers into different context... Cardano network fees are currently 0.0376% of ETH's fees. Yet the market cap for Cardano is 17% of Ethereum.
I think you have twisted this inside out.

As ETH gets more valuable, transaction fees get more and more expensive when measured in USD. This is simply a fact.

That's it. So no, the lower market cap of Cardano is not necessarily because people are so willing to pay transaction fees on ETH because the smart contracts are so useful. The transaction fees are simply high because the ETH price is. Same with bitcoin.

Whether or not ETH does something with its contracts that adds value is another questions Some argue those contracts will raise the network congestion and raise the transaction fees. Some day people will examine whether the costs are worth it.

As it is, POW (proof of work by miners) seems extremely inefficient.

I'm curious what that $69 million in fees actually bought that Visa couldn't have done cheaper. But yeah, illegal transactions are always expensive.
Transaction fees are not generally dependent on the price of the underlying coin, they are dependent on supply and demand for blockspace.

When you submit a transaction, it is essentially an auction process. You submit a gas fee along with your transaction, and the miners will choose the transactions which have submitted the highest transaction fee. If there is no demand for the network, people can submit low gas fees and miners just have to accept because there is no other business. It doesn't matter what the spot price of Ether is at the time.

There is an association between gas fees and Ether prices, but you have the cause and effect slightly out of order.

High demand for the network is the root cause of both high network fees and Ether prices (though Ether prices also have speculation boosting them as well).

Edit to add: I will say though that total network fees both is and isn't a good way of measuring what a network is worth I think, but there are a lot of way to look at it.
Last edited by decapod10 on Mon May 17, 2021 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by txhill »

HomerJ wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:13 am Eth is making money, sure...

But it taking over the world is still theoretical. Until it transitions to Proof of Stake instead of Proof of Work, it's future is limited. It cannot scale at this point.

The entire crypto environment is always about what's just around the corner, but never quite getting there.

Technically, I am right at this point of time. The best kind of right... technically right. :)

But, sure it's possible, maybe even probable for Eth to fix it's problems. But until it does, it's future is also theoretical.
The current price of ETH reflects heavy discounting based on execution risks associated with EIP 1559 and the move to Proof of Stake. If those transitions both go well, ETH will go to the moon almost no matter what valuation model you use--based on DCF calculated from ETH revenue (and after POS the vast majority of revenue will be direct income for ETH holders), based on network effects, based on the value of governance over the dominant smart contract network, etc.

If the transitions go poorly then my portfolio is going to have a bad time!

So whether that makes you "technically right" about ETH's future being theoretical or not, I guess it depends on how you define terms. There's a clear path forward but there is high execution risk. To me that makes ETH risky, but not that it has a "theoretical" future value (which to me implies there isn't even a clear path forward, like for Cardano which has no use cases even in the pipeline, and which will only succeed if ETH falls flat AND folks decide to start developing on Cardano instead of other smart contract networks).
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by watchnerd »

txhill wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:37 am
The current price of ETH reflects heavy discounting based on execution risks associated with EIP 1559 and the move to Proof of Stake. If those transitions both go well, ETH will go to the moon almost no matter what valuation model you use--based on DCF calculated from ETH revenue (and after POS the vast majority of revenue will be direct income for ETH holders), based on network effects, based on the value of governance over the dominant smart contract network, etc.
The cash to drive ETH to the moon still has to come from somewhere.

So either it steals a bunch of market cap from BTC and the alt coins, or there is a massive influx of net new money into crypto.

Or both.

One of the things that annoys me about all the various YouTubers and influencers who make crypto price predictions is that they rarely talk about what kind of total crypto cap is necessary to make their predictions come true.

If every 'hot thing' goes to 3X-5X current values, then either BTC declines a lot in value or there is a doubling of the crypto market cap to something like $4-5T.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by watchnerd »

HomerJ wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:13 am The entire crypto environment is always about what's just around the corner, but never quite getting there.
I think the 24x7x365 worldwide trading of crypto markets applies a dopamine-driven model like you see so being so successful in driving addictive social media products, taping into behavioral economic "bugs" in homo economicus at a scale that regulated markets don't.

In that environment, "the next big thing" may be more sellable than the current reality.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by txhill »

watchnerd wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:43 am
txhill wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:37 am
The current price of ETH reflects heavy discounting based on execution risks associated with EIP 1559 and the move to Proof of Stake. If those transitions both go well, ETH will go to the moon almost no matter what valuation model you use--based on DCF calculated from ETH revenue (and after POS the vast majority of revenue will be direct income for ETH holders), based on network effects, based on the value of governance over the dominant smart contract network, etc.
The cash to drive ETH to the moon still has to come from somewhere.

So either it steals a bunch of market cap from BTC and the alt coins, or there is a massive influx of net new money into crypto.

Or both.

One of the things that annoys me about all the various YouTubers and influencers who make crypto price predictions is that they rarely talk about what kind of total crypto cap is necessary to make their predictions come true.

If every 'hot thing' goes to 3X-5X current values, then either BTC declines a lot in value or there is a doubling of the crypto market cap to something like $4-5T.
It probably is both. A lot of money in other smart contract chains are betting on ETH to fail. If ETH doesn't fail, that money is going right back into ETH--as I doubt there is room for very many smart contract chains at the end of the day (unless DOT or something that links different chains takes off).

And addressable markets are huge for stores of value as well as the global financial services market. Crypto still is dwarfed by other investments in those spaces so it's not crazy to think that net new money will arrive in crypto over time too.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by watchnerd »

txhill wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:56 am

It probably is both. A lot of money in other smart contract chains are betting on ETH to fail. If ETH doesn't fail, that money is going right back into ETH--as I doubt there is room for very many smart contract chains at the end of the day (unless DOT or something that links different chains takes off).
While I think that's true, let's take a SWAG of how much money there is to scoop up from the "losers". Some of these are "smart chain ambitious" as opposed to actually having one:

BNB - $78B
ADA - $65B
DOT - $36B
LINK - $16B

Total: $195B

(as of 5/17/21)

$380B (ETH current market cap) + $195B (100% capture of losers) = $575B =33% increase

$3200 ETH * 1.33 = $4256 ETH

33% is a nice bump, for sure, but moonshot money, 5-10X, requires a lot more money flowing into the space.

That's years down the road, IMHO.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by txhill »

watchnerd wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 11:59 am
txhill wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:56 am

It probably is both. A lot of money in other smart contract chains are betting on ETH to fail. If ETH doesn't fail, that money is going right back into ETH--as I doubt there is room for very many smart contract chains at the end of the day (unless DOT or something that links different chains takes off).
While I think that's true, let's take a SWAG of how much money there is to scoop up from the "losers". Some of these are "smart chain ambitious" as opposed to actually having one:

BNB - $78B
ADA - $65B
DOT - $36B
LINK - $16B

Total: $195B

(as of 5/17/21)

$380B (ETH current market cap) + $195B (100% capture of losers) = $575B =33% increase

$3200 ETH * 1.33 = $4256 ETH

33% is a nice bump, for sure, but moonshot money, 5-10X, requires a lot more money flowing into the space.

That's years down the road, IMHO.
Probably true. But I'm sure it'll happen quickly if/when it does happen. Crypto as a whole did a 10x over the last year; that kind of movement could happen again (though I also doubt that is going to happen this cycle).
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by watchnerd »

txhill wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:12 pm Probably true. But I'm sure it'll happen quickly if/when it does happen. Crypto as a whole did a 10x over the last year; that kind of movement could happen again (though I also doubt that is going to happen this cycle).
Highly doubtful for this cycle.

To get another 10x in the next 5 years probably requires a hard crash and buying after things have been crushed -50% or more.

Crypto market cap drops to $1T by end of 2022, grows back to $5T by 2025.

Just HODLing at current prices, that gets you to 2.5x just based on market cap.

You might get 10x+ if you pick exactly the right assets, or doing a lot of DCA in the bear market.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by txhill »

watchnerd wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:19 pm
txhill wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:12 pm Probably true. But I'm sure it'll happen quickly if/when it does happen. Crypto as a whole did a 10x over the last year; that kind of movement could happen again (though I also doubt that is going to happen this cycle).
Highly doubtful for this cycle.

To get another 10x in the next 5 years probably requires a hard crash and buying after things have been crushed -50% or more.

Crypto market cap drops to $1T by end of 2022, grows back to $5T by 2025.

Just HODLing at current prices, that gets you to 2.5x just based on market cap.

You might get 10x+ if you pick exactly the right assets, or doing a lot of DCA in the bear market.
I'm buying nothing but meme coins in the next bear market. Only half joking...
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by vanbogle59 »

watchnerd wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:19 pm
Highly doubtful for this cycle.
My 1 BTC sincerely hopes this is, in fact, a "cycle". :D
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by watchnerd »

vanbogle59 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:28 pm

My 1 BTC sincerely hopes this is, in fact, a "cycle". :D
Well, yeah.

The utility of the crypto space as a good investment (as opposed to a field of technology) could all just get flushed down the toilet permanently after Gen Z and Millenials get burnt hard in the next crash, regulations get slapped on because people are mad, and CBDC's appear.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by decapod10 »

watchnerd wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:32 pm
vanbogle59 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 12:28 pm

My 1 BTC sincerely hopes this is, in fact, a "cycle". :D
Well, yeah.

The utility of the crypto space as a good investment (as opposed to a field of technology) could all just get flushed down the toilet permanently after Gen Z and Millenials get burnt hard in the next crash, regulations get slapped on because people are mad, and CBDC's appear.
CBDC's would be a huge boon to cryptocurrencies IMO, my guess is that it would make the space as a whole more valuable rather than less.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by watchnerd »

decapod10 wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:41 pm

CBDC's would be a huge boon to cryptocurrencies IMO, my guess is that it would make the space as a whole more valuable rather than less.
I think it could have all sorts of unintended consequences depending on how CBDCs are implemented.

In the US, if Fedcoin comes directly from the Fed itself, and not something you get through the retail banking system, I think it crushes retail banking, eventually.

On the other hand, if Fedcoin has to be obtained through your regular bank, is it really a big paradigm shfit?
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by nisiprius »

Prahasaurus wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:07 am
Forester wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:00 am Interesting new dynamic is the divorce of Elon Musk and the crypto community, it's like the tech scene splitting in two, beforehand QQQ/ARKK/Tesla/Bitcoin were all on the same page and all moving to the top right on the chart. As the tech growth story disintegrates there will be in-fighting and recrimination.
LOL.

Yeah, tech growth is going to disintegrate. Let's all bet against technology! /s
Were you paying attention to the stock market circa the year 2000?

Global Crossing. WorldCom. Webvan. Globalstar. Lycos. 3Com. Lucent. There was just no way you can avoid winning. Just invest in technology. In the "New Economy." The future is undervalued.

Yes, technology rolls on but there are bubbles and busts within it, and simply buying technology stocks isn't the master key to wealth without work.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by Prahasaurus »

nisiprius wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 6:02 pm
Prahasaurus wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 3:07 am
Forester wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 2:00 am Interesting new dynamic is the divorce of Elon Musk and the crypto community, it's like the tech scene splitting in two, beforehand QQQ/ARKK/Tesla/Bitcoin were all on the same page and all moving to the top right on the chart. As the tech growth story disintegrates there will be in-fighting and recrimination.
LOL.

Yeah, tech growth is going to disintegrate. Let's all bet against technology! /s
Were you paying attention to the stock market circa the year 2000?

Global Crossing. WorldCom. Webvan. Globalstar. Lycos. 3Com. Lucent. There was just no way you can avoid winning. Just invest in technology. In the "New Economy." The future is undervalued.

Yes, technology rolls on but there are bubbles and busts within it, and simply buying technology stocks isn't the master key to wealth without work.
It's all about fundamentals. If crypto is a scam, if it's about convincing a "greater fool" to buy something with no value, then longer term the crypto market will go to zero. If, on the other hand, crypto will become a foundation of many industries, including finance, then its 2 trillion USD total market cap is peanuts.

Shorter term, there are always ups and downs. I'm a long term believer.
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

Post by Cycle »

Looking at my 1040, the first question the IRS asks after general information (address, filing status):
At any time during 2020, did you receive, sell, send, exchange, or otherwise acquire any financial interest in any virtual currency?
Never look back unless you are planning to go that way
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Re: Cryptocurrency - Bitcoin Continues to Soar!

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Cycle wrote: Mon May 17, 2021 10:14 pm Looking at my 1040, the first question the IRS asks after general information (address, filing status):
At any time during 2020, did you receive, sell, send, exchange, or otherwise acquire any financial interest in any virtual currency?
You just now noticed this? ;)
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