Cliff Asness of AQR is our guest on Bogleheads on Investing!

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Cliff Asness of AQR is our guest on Bogleheads on Investing!

Post by Rick Ferri »

In this interview, Cliff Asness makes his case for value and momentum factors in a stock portfolio despite recent underperformance. Whether you believe in these strategies or not, there is much to learn from listening. As with all Bogleheads on Investing podcasts, the content is provided for educational purposes only and not to be view as an investment recommendation or endorsement of the ideas being discussed.

Here is the link to the interview:

Bogleheads On Investing Podcast Episode 027 with Cliff Asness

Dr. Cliff Asness is a Founder, Managing Principal, and Chief Investment Officer at AQR Capital Management, a quantitative money manager overseeing $186 billion in assets as of December 2019. Prior to co-founding AQR Capital Management, he was a Managing Director and Director of Quantitative Research for the Asset Management Division of Goldman, Sachs & Co.  He is an award-winning researcher on quantitative investment strategies and has authored articles for many publications, including The Journal of Portfolio Management, Financial Analysts Journal, The Journal of Finance, and The Journal of Financial Economics. 

Cliff received a B.S. in economics from the Wharton School and a B.S. in engineering from the Moore School of Electrical Engineering at the University of Pennsylvania, graduating summa cum laude in both. He received an M.B.A. with high honors and a Ph.D. in finance from the University of Chicago, where he was Eugene Fama’s student and teaching assistant for two years.

This podcast is hosted by me, Rick Ferri, CFA, a long-time Boglehead and investment adviser. This podcast is supported by the John C. Bogle Center for Financial Literacy, a non-profit organization approved by the IRS as a 501(c)(3) public charity on February 6, 2012.

Enjoy!
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Thank you for doing these podcasts. I am listening right now. Cliff Asness is a delightful guest.
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The magic woid is "implementability". You win $64,000.

Instead of thinking about Value, think about Price.

Phrase of the day is "Price divided by anything reasonable. Price divided by book, trailing earnings, forecasted earnings, free cash flow, sales."

Value is a risk story and a behavioral story. Asness started 2/3 risk and 1/3 behavioral. Now he is 2/3 behavioral and 1/3 risk. If Asness had to pick one, it would be behavioral unless he was 1,000 miles in range of Gene Fama, then he would change his story back to risk. Wow, ol' Nedsaid wasn't so wrong.
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Post by Angst »

I enjoyed the "value plus a catalyst" part of his discussion of momentum and value.
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Angst wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:59 am I enjoyed the "value plus a catalyst" part of his discussion of momentum and value.
Ditto. I also his observation, and Rick's, that International Stocks in general give you a Value type of investment.
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nedsaid wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:56 pm
Angst wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:59 am I enjoyed the "value plus a catalyst" part of his discussion of momentum and value.
Ditto. I also his observation, and Rick's, that International Stocks in general give you a Value type of investment.
This really is pronounced. All you have to do is run a "Compare" on the Vanguard website of VTI and VXUS and look at the fundamentals to see how value dominates international markets.

If you didn't know better, you'd think you were looking at a US mid-cap value index.

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Rick Ferri wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:08 pm
nedsaid wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:56 pm
Angst wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:59 am I enjoyed the "value plus a catalyst" part of his discussion of momentum and value.
Ditto. I also his observation, and Rick's, that International Stocks in general give you a Value type of investment.
This really is pronounced. All you have to do is run a "Compare" on the Vanguard website of VTI and VXUS and look at the fundamentals to see how value dominates international markets.

If you didn't know better, you'd think you were looking at a US mid-cap value index.

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Vanguard US mid-cap value index vs VXUS. Mel's Unloved Mid-Caps win again :D

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On every fundamental price/anything measure, international stocks look a lot more like US mid-cap value stocks than the US total market.

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Thanks Rick.

I’ll listen on my walk in the morning. I love the podcast.
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Good one Rick. Thanks again.
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Rick Ferri wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 1:08 pm
nedsaid wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 12:56 pm
Angst wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 11:59 am I enjoyed the "value plus a catalyst" part of his discussion of momentum and value.
Ditto. I also his observation, and Rick's, that International Stocks in general give you a Value type of investment.
This really is pronounced. All you have to do is run a "Compare" on the Vanguard website of VTI and VXUS and look at the fundamentals to see how value dominates international markets.

If you didn't know better, you'd think you were looking at a US mid-cap value index.

Rick Ferri
Rick, thanks for bringing that up. You can be invested in the Taylor Larimore 3 fund portfolio and still have a Value tilt, and a Mid-Cap tilt at that. By the way, it was an excellent interview and Cliff Asness was a delightful guest. You don't have to agree with his investment philosophy in order to learn from him. Thanks again for doing these podcasts.
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That's not exactly a compelling feature.
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Rick,

Just finished the Podcast and enjoyed it. My big AHA was your comment on VXUS being a Value play. Never occurred to me.

Enjoyed the discussion, especially the humor!

Thanks

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Post by DanLeeRot »

Rick: You pulled off yet another outstanding interview, this time with Dr. Cliff Asness. Also, congrats on being named as one of the top 100 financial advisors for 2020 by Investopedia.
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Thanks! Cliff was a wonderful guest.

Our next guest will be ROGER LOWENSTEIN, former WSJ reporter and author of several award-winning books about Wall Street.

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Rick Ferri wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:55 pm On every fundamental price/anything measure, international stocks look a lot more like US mid-cap value stocks than the US total market.

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I still prefer to expose myself to value within the subset of ex-US stocks. Just because it’s cheap relative to a different nation doesn’t mean it’s gaining the same risk/behavioral premium/mispricing relative to a cap-weighted approach.
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MotoTrojan wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:43 pm
I still prefer to expose myself to value within the subset of ex-US stocks. Just because it’s cheap relative to a different nation doesn’t mean it’s gaining the same risk/behavioral premium/mispricing relative to a cap-weighted approach.
That's true, but you'll get some of it without doing anything except diversifying internationally. That was the point of my question to Cliff about this idea, and he agreed.

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Rick Ferri wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:46 pm
MotoTrojan wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 3:43 pm
I still prefer to expose myself to value within the subset of ex-US stocks. Just because it’s cheap relative to a different nation doesn’t mean it’s gaining the same risk/behavioral premium/mispricing relative to a cap-weighted approach.
That's true, but you'll get some of it without doing anything except diversifying internationally. That was the point of my question to Cliff about this idea, and he agreed.

Rick Ferri
Right on. Pod is in the queue, looking forward to it!
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columbia wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:47 pm That's not exactly a compelling feature.
It's funny that "value" is the new marketing buzzword for holding international stocks.
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000 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:28 pm
columbia wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:47 pm That's not exactly a compelling feature.
It's funny that "value" is the new marketing buzzword for holding international stocks.
Not a buzzword. No one made it that way. It just became that way in part because of the industries international represents. This is a table showing the international market (VXUS) and US market (VTI) by industry groups. Notice the differences.

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Rick Ferri wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:45 pm
000 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:28 pm
columbia wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:47 pm That's not exactly a compelling feature.
It's funny that "value" is the new marketing buzzword for holding international stocks.
Not a buzzword. No one made it that way. It just became that way in part because of the industries international represents. This is a table showing the international market (VXUS) and US market (VTI) by industry groups. Notice the differences.

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Yes, I know that the international stock index has a different sector makeup and valuation.

What I find funny is how the reasons given for holding international have changed over the years. First, it was diversification, and this is probably still true at extremes, but for the most part broad stock indices are highly correlated. Then, it was high growth because emerging markets have a lot of room to grow, but that hasn't really happened; China, etc. GDP growth hasn't really gone to shareholders in emerging markets equity index funds.

Now, it's sector concentration and valuations. But if sector concentration and valuations justify international, they also justify a sector neutral and/or value tilt within US stocks. A person can get plenty of exposure to banks, oil, materials, etc. within US stocks, no? As you yourself say: international "looks like" mid cap value; so if adding international is justified for this reason, so is adding a MCV tilt.

Anyway, I think holding international stocks is a good idea, but "value" is not a good reason for it.
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Post by Gentex »

Really great conversation Rick; I enjoyed it immensely.

You gave Cliff a lot of room to talk while gently guiding the discussion with your questions and observations. Definitley one of the top pods I've listened to recently.
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000 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 5:02 pm
Rick Ferri wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:45 pm
000 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:28 pm
columbia wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:47 pm That's not exactly a compelling feature.
It's funny that "value" is the new marketing buzzword for holding international stocks.
Not a buzzword. No one made it that way. It just became that way in part because of the industries international represents. This is a table showing the international market (VXUS) and US market (VTI) by industry groups. Notice the differences.

Image
Yes, I know that the international stock index has a different sector makeup and valuation.

What I find funny is how the reasons given for holding international have changed over the years. First, it was diversification, and this is probably still true at extremes, but for the most part broad stock indices are highly correlated. Then, it was high growth because emerging markets have a lot of room to grow, but that hasn't really happened; China, etc. GDP growth hasn't really gone to shareholders in emerging markets equity index funds.

Now, it's sector concentration and valuations. But if sector concentration and valuations justify international, they also justify a sector neutral and/or value tilt within US stocks. A person can get plenty of exposure to banks, oil, materials, etc. within US stocks, no? As you yourself say: international "looks like" mid cap value; so if adding international is justified for this reason, so is adding a MCV tilt.

Anyway, I think holding international stocks is a good idea, but "value" is not a good reason for it.
Diversification is, and always has been, the only reason anyone should need to maintain exposure to non-US markets.

But when US stocks are more expensive than ALL of the forty largest equity markets in the world, the reasons just multiply.

What’s amazing to me is how much people will dance around the evidence to avoid seeing the plain facts in front of them.
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vineviz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:26 pm Diversification is, and always has been, the only reason anyone should need to maintain exposure to non-US markets.
I agree.
vineviz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:26 pm But when US stocks are more expensive than ALL of the forty largest equity markets in the world, the reasons just multiply.
Not sure about that. If one believes in the value (P/B, P/E) premium, then to be internally consistent one should believe in the value premium both in US and ex-US, so the comparison of International Blend to US Blend on value grounds is shaky. i.e. if value is a reason to buy Intl Blend, it's also a reason to buy US Value, which I don't think is a position Ferri supports.
vineviz wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 6:26 pm What’s amazing to me is how much people will dance around the evidence to avoid seeing the plain facts in front of them.
I think I agree with you, but I'm not quite sure what you mean by this. If higher US valuations (by something like CAPE or a similar metric) justify reducing exposure to US Blend for Intl Blend, they surely also justify reducing exposure from US LCG for US [lms]CV within US allocation.

--

It doesn't make sense to cite valuations as a justification for holding international but reject value tilting within US markets. That is my only quibble with the "value is a good reason to buy international" argument. It also reeks of market timing.
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000 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 7:50 pm It doesn't make sense to cite valuations as a justification for holding international but reject value tilting within US markets. That is my only quibble with the "value is a good reason to buy international" argument. It also reeks of market timing.
I don’t reject “value tilting” in US markets . I cannot speak for Rick, but one of his model portfolios is the Total Economy Core-4 Portfolio which has something of a SCV tilt so I suspect he is not dogmatic and rigid about it either.

In either case, a value tilt isn’t necessarily “market timing” if it is a strategic policy rather than a tactical one.
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Rick Ferri wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:45 pm
000 wrote: Sat Oct 31, 2020 4:28 pm
columbia wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 7:47 pm That's not exactly a compelling feature.
It's funny that "value" is the new marketing buzzword for holding international stocks.
Not a buzzword. No one made it that way. It just became that way in part because of the industries international represents. This is a table showing the international market (VXUS) and US market (VTI) by industry groups. Notice the differences.

Image
Two good arguments for International Diversification with your stocks. You get better sector diversification when you include International to a stock portfolio and you also add some cheaper stocks. What is not to like? Thank you Rick for bringing this up.
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I understand the diversification. Is there not an added advanced advantage to a scv international rather than a total int market cap fund. ?.
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Mardoc01 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:04 pm I understand the diversification. Is there not an added advanced advantage to a scv international rather than a total int market cap fund. ?.
The "ultimate larry": International SCV + Short Term Treasuries. :twisted:
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Mardoc01 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:04 pm I understand the diversification. Is there not an added advanced advantage to a scv international rather than a total int market cap fund. ?.
Yes, and there is also a diversification advantage by favoring emerging markets over ex-US developed markets.
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vineviz wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:47 pm
Mardoc01 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:04 pm I understand the diversification. Is there not an added advanced advantage to a scv international rather than a total int market cap fund. ?.
Yes, and there is also a diversification advantage by favoring emerging markets over ex-US developed markets.
Is the PE even lower in emerging small cap value right now or P/S ratio lower, which ever metric used,compared to ex US small value ?a.
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Mardoc01 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:31 pm
vineviz wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:47 pm
Mardoc01 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:04 pm I understand the diversification. Is there not an added advanced advantage to a scv international rather than a total int market cap fund. ?.
Yes, and there is also a diversification advantage by favoring emerging markets over ex-US developed markets.
Is the PE even lower in emerging small cap value right now or P/S ratio lower, which ever metric used,compared to ex US small value ?a.
I have no idea, but the correlation of emerging market stocks with US stocks is lower and the variance is higher. That’s what makes EM a better diversifier.
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch
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vineviz wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:12 pm
Mardoc01 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:31 pm
vineviz wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:47 pm
Mardoc01 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:04 pm I understand the diversification. Is there not an added advanced advantage to a scv international rather than a total int market cap fund. ?.
Yes, and there is also a diversification advantage by favoring emerging markets over ex-US developed markets.
Is the PE even lower in emerging small cap value right now or P/S ratio lower, which ever metric used,compared to ex US small value ?a.
I have no idea, but the correlation of emerging market stocks with US stocks is lower and the variance is higher. That’s what makes EM a better diversifier.
Thx. Appreciate. I own a fair amount of spem which is market weighted. Not small per se. was looking at avdv as there doesn’t seem a good emerging small value that I like
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vineviz wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 7:12 pm
Mardoc01 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 6:31 pm
vineviz wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 3:47 pm
Mardoc01 wrote: Sun Nov 01, 2020 12:04 pm I understand the diversification. Is there not an added advanced advantage to a scv international rather than a total int market cap fund. ?.
Yes, and there is also a diversification advantage by favoring emerging markets over ex-US developed markets.
Is the PE even lower in emerging small cap value right now or P/S ratio lower, which ever metric used,compared to ex US small value ?a.
I have no idea, but the correlation of emerging market stocks with US stocks is lower and the variance is higher. That’s what makes EM a better diversifier.
The correlation between US and Italy is even lower than the correlation between US and EM, and the variance is higher as well. Italy is an even better diversifier than EM!

Of course that last statement isn't true, fund correlations and variance are not useful measures of diversification. Similarly, it cannot be concluded that EM is a better diversifier than ex-us solely on the basis of correlations and variance.
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Uncorrelated wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:25 am The correlation between US and Italy is even lower than the correlation between US and EM, and the variance is higher as well. Italy is an even better diversifier than EM!
Yes, this is true.
Uncorrelated wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:25 amOf course that last statement isn't true, fund correlations and variance are not useful measures of diversification.
It's true because correlation and variance are the ONLY useful measures of diversification.

If asset A has a variance of 4%, the perfect diversifier would be an asset with a correlation of -1.0 to asset A that ALSO has a variance of 4%. If the two assets had the same mean expected return, the combination would have that return and no volatility.

Asness even made reference to this in the podcast, pointing out that this hypothetical "perfect" diversifying asset doesn't exist in the real world but that assets (or factors, in the context Asness was addressing) which have low correlations and positive expected returns are desirable from a diversification standpoint.
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch
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Rick Ferri wrote: Fri Oct 30, 2020 5:55 pm On every fundamental price/anything measure, international stocks look a lot more like US mid-cap value stocks than the US total market.

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This is an intriguing observation. Any idea how true this was in past years/decades?
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vineviz wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 9:06 am
Uncorrelated wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:25 am The correlation between US and Italy is even lower than the correlation between US and EM, and the variance is higher as well. Italy is an even better diversifier than EM!
Yes, this is true.
Uncorrelated wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 5:25 amOf course that last statement isn't true, fund correlations and variance are not useful measures of diversification.
It's true because correlation and variance are the ONLY useful measures of diversification.

If asset A has a variance of 4%, the perfect diversifier would be an asset with a correlation of -1.0 to asset A that ALSO has a variance of 4%. If the two assets had the same mean expected return, the combination would have that return and no volatility.

Asness even made reference to this in the podcast, pointing out that this hypothetical "perfect" diversifying asset doesn't exist in the real world but that assets (or factors, in the context Asness was addressing) which have low correlations and positive expected returns are desirable from a diversification standpoint.
Correlation and variance are measures used in the diversification ratio. Diversification ratio != diversification. It is not difficult to see that diversification ratio is flawed: the portfolio with the highest diversification ratio two ETF's Spain and France is different than the portfolio with the highest diversification ratio between the two ETF's 80% Spain/20% France and 100% France.

According to my definition of diversification, the most diversified portfolio is the one with the least idiosyncratic risk. Variance and correlation and imperfect and flawed measures of idiosyncratic risk. Using the diversification ratio in your portfolio construction is an active bet against efficient markets.
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Uncorrelated wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:26 am According to my definition of diversification, the most diversified portfolio is the one with the least idiosyncratic risk.
Cool. How do you calculate the amount of idiosyncratic risk?

Let's say you manage a trust that, for some reason, has a bizarre restriction: its portfolio must be made up entirely of TWO of the following three stocks: J P Morgan Chase & Co (JPM), Walmart Inc (WMT), Walt Disney Company (DIS). Without using either variance or correlation, how would you choose which pair of stocks is the most diversified pair?
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Post by Uncorrelated »

vineviz wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:31 am
Uncorrelated wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:26 am According to my definition of diversification, the most diversified portfolio is the one with the least idiosyncratic risk.
Cool. How do you calculate the amount of idiosyncratic risk?
I don't have to do that. I trust that the market prices securities relative to their marginal benefit, therefore the market portfolio has the lowest degree of idiosyncratic risk. No calculating required.

Let's say you manage a trust that, for some reason, has a bizarre restriction: its portfolio must be made up entirely of TWO of the following three stocks: J P Morgan Chase & Co (JPM), Walmart Inc (WMT), Walt Disney Company (DIS). Without using either variance or correlation, how would you choose which pair of stocks is the most diversified pair?
I would tell the client to stop micromanaging me and allow me to select the pair with the highest expected utility according to client's risk aversion and human capital, not diversification. Try asking me some questions that actually reflect individual investor goals and restrictions instead of asking a question that makes implicit assumptions that diversification is something that is worth optimizing for.
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siamond
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Re: Cliff Asness of AQR is our guest on Bogleheads on Investing!

Post by siamond »

Only went mid-way, will finish listening later, but I have to say that Cliff is a really likable character. It isn't that common to see very knowledgeable people who are also humble, open-minded and quite funny. Notably in the world of finance.
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Re: Cliff Asness of AQR is our guest on Bogleheads on Investing!

Post by garlandwhizzer »

siamond wrote:

It isn't that common to see very knowledgeable people who are also humble, open-minded and quite funny. Notably in the world of finance.
I believe that most of us who invest seriously for decades and objectively observe market action in relation to our predictions about it, learn humility over time. It is often an acquired rather than an innate trait. The market also teaches a sense of humor (better to laugh than cry when things don't go our way) and an awareness of our own fallibility. Cliff Asness is brilliant and exceptionally knowledgeable but those traits aren't guaranteed to produce great investing results as has been apparent in recent years.

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columbia
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Re: Cliff Asness of AQR is our guest on Bogleheads on Investing!

Post by columbia »

I noted that Cliff signed off on home country bias.
retiringwhen
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Re: Cliff Asness of AQR is our guest on Bogleheads on Investing!

Post by retiringwhen »

Just listened today, Cliff is a great guest and your entire exchange of a broad range of "quant" subjects was really excellent! Some real nuggets today.
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vineviz
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Re: Cliff Asness of AQR is our guest on Bogleheads on Investing!

Post by vineviz »

Uncorrelated wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:14 pm
vineviz wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:31 am
Uncorrelated wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:26 am According to my definition of diversification, the most diversified portfolio is the one with the least idiosyncratic risk.
Cool. How do you calculate the amount of idiosyncratic risk?
I don't have to do that. I trust that the market prices securities relative to their marginal benefit, therefore the market portfolio has the lowest degree of idiosyncratic risk. No calculating required.
Perfectly circular reasoning. Nicely evaded.
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch
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Uncorrelated
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Re: Cliff Asness of AQR is our guest on Bogleheads on Investing!

Post by Uncorrelated »

vineviz wrote: Tue Nov 10, 2020 6:54 pm
Uncorrelated wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:14 pm
vineviz wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 11:31 am
Uncorrelated wrote: Mon Nov 02, 2020 10:26 am According to my definition of diversification, the most diversified portfolio is the one with the least idiosyncratic risk.
Cool. How do you calculate the amount of idiosyncratic risk?
I don't have to do that. I trust that the market prices securities relative to their marginal benefit, therefore the market portfolio has the lowest degree of idiosyncratic risk. No calculating required.
Perfectly circular reasoning. Nicely evaded.
It may sound like circular reasoning, it is more or less equivalent to how academics do it. For example, in The cross-section of volatility and expected returns (PDF), idiosyncratic volatility is defined as the regression residuals after running a CAPM or Fama/French regression. I'm too lazy to track down the original source, but this definition goes back to at least Campbell (2001). I'm sure you're familiar with Campbell's rigorous mathematical approach.

Recall that the purpose of diversification is to reduce idiosyncratic risk. Therefore, the most diversified portfolio is equal to the portfolio with the least amount of idiosyncratic risk, which is equal to the market portfolio (or linear combinations of factors).

As you can imagine, this makes measuring idiosyncratic risk almost pointless. No point in measuring something if the optimal solution is trivial.
musicagogo
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Re: Cliff Asness of AQR is our guest on Bogleheads on Investing!

Post by musicagogo »

Heard this and thought it was interesting-
https://tdameritradenetwork.com/video/r ... deZ-IB4AKA
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bobcat2
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Re: Cliff Asness of AQR is our guest on Bogleheads on Investing!

Post by bobcat2 »

siamond wrote: Tue Nov 03, 2020 11:34 am Only went mid-way, will finish listening later, but I have to say that Cliff is a really likable character. It isn't that common to see very knowledgeable people who are also humble, open-minded and quite funny. Notably in the world of finance.
Yes, very likable. Perhaps Cliff could meet with some Bogleheads at Bistro Bis and we could discuss finance and split a couple of bottles of Jayer-Gilles 2004 Echezeaux Grand Cru, or a close substitute. I'm sure he'd enjoy that. :wink:

BobK
In finance risk is defined as uncertainty that is consequential (nontrivial). | The two main methods of dealing with financial risk are the matching of assets to goals & diversifying.
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