Anybody here trying Coast FIRE?

[geerhardusvos]

I am becoming financially independent by the time most people are getting done with their residency. Are you telling me everyone loves medical school and residency? Why did they waste their best decades going to school and working night shifts?

Because they felt passionately about helping other people and contributing to the world around them in some meaningful way. Maybe not every last one of them, but certainly most of them.

Right, and I’m passionate about helping others as well and in order for me to do that to its fullest extent I need to work for a few more years in a job that I would rather not do. The grind that medical school is and night shifts are is extremely equivalent to my big tech career which is going to allow me to significantly give back to my family and community in my next venture. Am I wasting the next three years of my life by saving up another $500,000 in job I would rather quit even though it's mostly tolerable?

You still haven’t commented on the fact that most people, including doctors, who are given enough money to where they are financially independent would actually quit their job or significantly change what they do. Does that mean they’re wasting their best years? I think that’s the rub here that you haven’t commented on... I think if you are honest, the generalization you made about it being “sad” that someone in their 30s would only work for money (even for a time) is wrong and hypocritical.

[JustinR]

It's seriously inappropriate for you to be constantly posting how sad you are

It's seriously inappropriate for you to resort to ad hominem attacks rather than making reasonable arguments about the issues being discussed, not to mention the abbreviated profanity.

Discuss what, your misguided opinion that everyone should just go and get their dream job and work forever?

Maybe work would have no meaningful place in your life if you were financially independent. But that would probably be unusual, particularly if you hit FI in your 30s. I've met many people who became FI in their 30s and 40s. All of them are doing at least some of what most would call work and most of them are getting paid something for it.

It would be interesting to survey FI 30-40 somethings and see how many are working and how their happiness and life satisfaction correlates with whether they work or not.

I mean you have several people in this thread telling you exactly that. That they love their jobs but don't need to keep doing it forever or for money.

I'm FI in my early 30s, have a dream job, and will probably retire soon. So add that to your growing list of counter-examples to your hypothesis.

Many of my peers weren't so fortunate. When they graduated there were not a lot of jobs and some had to grab onto whatever they could. Which may have set them on a trajectory for life. Many people don't have the luxury of choosing how their life turns out.

I don't go around telling them how sad I am for them.

[nigel_ht]

It's seriously inappropriate for you to be constantly posting how sad you are

It's seriously inappropriate for you to resort to ad hominem attacks rather than making reasonable arguments about the issues being discussed, not to mention the abbreviated profanity.

Discuss what, your misguided opinion that everyone should just go and get their dream job and work forever?

Maybe work would have no meaningful place in your life if you were financially independent. But that would probably be unusual, particularly if you hit FI in your 30s. I've met many people who became FI in their 30s and 40s. All of them are doing at least some of what most would call work and most of them are getting paid something for it.

It would be interesting to survey FI 30-40 somethings and see how many are working and how their happiness and life satisfaction correlates with whether they work or not.

I mean you have several people in this thread telling you exactly that. That they love their jobs but don't need to keep doing it forever or for money.

I'm FI in my early 30s, have a dream job, and will probably retire soon. So add that to your growing list of counter-examples to your hypothesis.

Many of my peers weren't so fortunate. When they graduated there were not a lot of jobs and some had to grab onto whatever they could. Which may have set them on a trajectory for life. Many people don't have the luxury of choosing how their life turns out.

I don't go around telling them how sad I am for them.

I guess it’s easier to tell people in this thread they are wrong in how they feel about work than to go back and try to explain why dry powder is a bad idea even though it seems to provide a large jump in performance...

[6bquick]

Many people don't have the luxury of choosing how their life turns out.

This is wrong.

No one has any say in how one's life starts, but the outcome is arguably the only thing one does have control over.

"our lives are a sum total of the choices we've made." - someone smarter than me.

[Kintora]

I heard about "Barista FIRE" for the first time yesterday.

I personally would not Coast FIRE, but I do like the idea of possibly going part-time in a low stress job after I have reached my FI number (which for me is 33.33 times expenses or 3% withdrawal rate). I hope to achieve this in about 5-8 years depending on savings and investment returns.

Once I reach that FI number, I could definitely see myself working part time at a coffee shop for a while. I love coffee, and being in a lower stress job could be fun for a while. The income (and possibly benefits) would be nice, despite my FI status.

I also think it could be fun to go do some English teaching in LCOL countries in semi-retirement, as I enjoy learning and teaching languages.

For now, I accept the higher stress job for the higher income to retire (or semi-retire) sooner. Looking forward to that next chapter in my life though for sure!

[flyingaway]

In Q1 of 2019 the firm I worked for was sold and my employment ended. I stayed for the severance. At that juncture I thought I would get another job. I do enjoy the camaraderie of a workplace and am not opposed to working. To that end I ended up with one offer after ~7 months. It was ~50% of my previous salary. I took it thinking it might be fun. Three weeks later I quit. It wasn't fun and the money wasn't attractive enough to stay. Now I've stopped looking and consider myself retired (early).

Do I have a passion? No. There is absolutely nothing I want to do with regards to working/volunteering. Sure, offer me enough and I'll put on a shirt and tie and go back to work. But I'm not looking for it. I have no interest in starting a blog. Instead, I sit outside by the pool. I would prefer to be overseas sitting by the ocean but the currrent situation doesn't lend itself to that reality.

This is me soon. Once I retire, I don't want to do anything to make money. Why should I retire from a job and pick up another job?

[Normchad]

Work just sucks. That’s why they have to pay you to do it. And most of us pick,our career track when we are young, and aren’t necessarily well informed.....

The golden handcuffs are real though......

I’ll never work part time at a low stress job. If I just suck it up, for one more year at my regular job, I’ll earn as much as I could in a decade working that low stress job. I doubt working for a decade at Starbucks would be any less frustrating or stressful than just working the regular job.

[marcopolo]

I’ll never work part time at a low stress job. ..... I doubt working for a decade at Starbucks would be any less frustrating or stressful than just working the regular job.

I agree with this.

Maybe, I was just lucky and never felt the stress of my job.
But, having held positions from entry-level engineer to C-level executive, I never felt any desire to leave for less stressful job. Now retired, and ZERO desire to work at Startbucks, or any other supposedly "low stress" job.

I wonder how many people working at such jobs would turn down a high paying corporate job because it was "too stressful". I suspect most would jump at the opportunity to make significantly more money.

[CyclingDuo]

I’ll never work part time at a low stress job. If I just suck it up, for one more year at my regular job, I’ll earn as much as I could in a decade working that low stress job. I doubt working for a decade at Starbucks would be any less frustrating or stressful than just working the regular job.

You would always have access to fresh hot coffee. So there's that...

P.S. I trapped gophers for a few years as a kid to make money. Every job since then has been stress free as no murder was involved....

[White Coat Investor]

I am becoming financially independent by the time most people are getting done with their residency. Are you telling me everyone loves medical school and residency? Why did they waste their best decades going to school and working night shifts?

Because they felt passionately about helping other people and contributing to the world around them in some meaningful way. Maybe not every last one of them, but certainly most of them.

Right, and I’m passionate about helping others as well and in order for me to do that to its fullest extent I need to work for a few more years in a job that I would rather not do. The grind that medical school is and night shifts are is extremely equivalent to my big tech career which is going to allow me to significantly give back to my family and community in my next venture. Am I wasting the next three years of my life by saving up another $500,000 in job I would rather quit even though it's mostly tolerable?

You still haven’t commented on the fact that most people, including doctors, who are given enough money to where they are financially independent would actually quit their job or significantly change what they do. Does that mean they’re wasting their best years? I think that’s the rub here that you haven’t commented on... I think if you are honest, the generalization you made about it being “sad” that someone in their 30s would only work for money (even for a time) is wrong and hypocritical.

When I have polled multiple audiences of physicians almost none would quit completely if given $10M, but they'd almost all work less!

[White Coat Investor]

Honestly, I was planning to get part time job at starbucks after I fire. I love coffee and would love to get job there, I dont want to own or run a coffee shop, I want to walk away at any moment when I feel like it.

Now you're talking. Now all you have to do is run the numbers and see how much you'd have to work at Starbucks to maintain your lifestyle with the nest egg you have. Maybe you have to be full time for a couple more years then start cutting back to part-time. Or you have to start a website about coffee on the side. Or whatever. But there is likely a way to get to your new career relatively soon without having to hit a traditional FI number first by working in a job you hate.

Im guessing most of any income will go into feeding a coffee habit vs lifestyle maintenance...

Personally my plan is to sit on the deck and read (books, internet, whatever). When I get bored, I'll get on a plane, travel some place nice and...sit on a deck and read. Maybe even go on a cruise and...sit on a deck and read.

Nope, not going to start a travel blog or anything. Being FI means I don't have to monetize anything. Without being FI means I can't do that...

Have you ever done that? I have. After 6 or 8 weeks I knew I couldn't do it the rest of my life. I suggest you try it for a few months and see how you like it. If you like reading maybe you could be an editor, proofreader, book reviewer etc on your own schedule. Maybe there is a job providing suggestions to your local library as to which books to buy. Dunno.

I am curious, do you believe that only paid endeavors can be "meaningful"?

I have just read a number of your posts where you suggest people try to monetize their hobbies. If one is FI, what benefit do you think that provides? Does it somehow become more rewarding, meaningful, or better, because you make a little money from it?

I had a career I enjoyed very much, at a certain point (not as early as some are discussing, but in my early 50s), the nature of my job changed. I was able to negotiate a very generous exit package, and decided to retire rather than find another job.

Fortunately, my spouse and i both have a number of hobbies and pursuits, including volunteering in the local community, that we enjoy very much.

I really don't see how trying to monetize any of them would provide anymore happiness, or meaning, to our lives. Quite the opposite, I think, trying to monetize them would more likely turn an enjoyable hobby into a demanding chore. What is to be gained?

I'm glad you have meaningful work, whether paid or unpaid.

I was making suggestions for people who are NOT FI but hate their job. You ARE FI, so those suggestions do not apply to you.

[White Coat Investor]

It's not just "Do I enjoy my days off more than the days I go to work?" It's "Do I want ALL days off, or is my overall life better if I only have some days off and I work some days?" To those who think they want all days off, I would encourage them to take a few weeks or months and try it. I suspect most who do so will discover that work still has a meaningful place in their life, especially if they're in their 30s. They just want to do it at a time and in a manner of their own choosing.

I'm still in my 30s for another month. Every time we take a vacation, returning to work... sucks. The longer the vacation, the more it sucks to return.

We could easily fill 100% of our time, enjoyably, with 0% work. Eventually we might get bored enough to volunteer, but I don't foresee that happening.

If you'd like to fund our FIRE, we can be your test subjects. If we start doing activities that appear to be "work" - we lose and have to return your money.

This could be fun. How much do you need?

Seriously though, do you have enough to go take a year off? I wonder if knowing it is a vacation and you'll have to return changes things.

[nigel_ht]

I am becoming financially independent by the time most people are getting done with their residency. Are you telling me everyone loves medical school and residency? Why did they waste their best decades going to school and working night shifts?

Because they felt passionately about helping other people and contributing to the world around them in some meaningful way. Maybe not every last one of them, but certainly most of them.

Right, and I’m passionate about helping others as well and in order for me to do that to its fullest extent I need to work for a few more years in a job that I would rather not do. The grind that medical school is and night shifts are is extremely equivalent to my big tech career which is going to allow me to significantly give back to my family and community in my next venture. Am I wasting the next three years of my life by saving up another $500,000 in job I would rather quit even though it's mostly tolerable?

You still haven’t commented on the fact that most people, including doctors, who are given enough money to where they are financially independent would actually quit their job or significantly change what they do. Does that mean they’re wasting their best years? I think that’s the rub here that you haven’t commented on... I think if you are honest, the generalization you made about it being “sad” that someone in their 30s would only work for money (even for a time) is wrong and hypocritical.

When I have polled multiple audiences of physicians almost none would quit completely if given $10M, but they'd almost all work less!

“One survey found that on average, 45% of resident physicians experience burnout. This ranged from 29.2%-63.8%. The prevalence of career choice regret was between 7.4%-32.7%”
...
“The most recent findings were similar to 2016 with 79% of primary care professionals reporting burnout. This is higher than the 54% of specialists who reported similar symptoms. But of both groups, more than one-third would not recommend their profession to a younger family member.”

https://etactics.com/blog/physician-burnout-statistics

Random google so I haven’t checked sources but somehow I think you are painting a rosier picture than reality...

[TheNightsToCome]

It's seriously inappropriate for you to be constantly posting how sad you are

It's seriously inappropriate for you to resort to ad hominem attacks rather than making reasonable arguments about the issues being discussed, not to mention the abbreviated profanity.

Dr Dahle, your remarks are (sound?) smug and condescending, i.e., insulting. That's the source of the hostility.

[White Coat Investor]

I am becoming financially independent by the time most people are getting done with their residency. Are you telling me everyone loves medical school and residency? Why did they waste their best decades going to school and working night shifts?

Because they felt passionately about helping other people and contributing to the world around them in some meaningful way. Maybe not every last one of them, but certainly most of them.

Right, and I’m passionate about helping others as well and in order for me to do that to its fullest extent I need to work for a few more years in a job that I would rather not do. The grind that medical school is and night shifts are is extremely equivalent to my big tech career which is going to allow me to significantly give back to my family and community in my next venture. Am I wasting the next three years of my life by saving up another $500,000 in job I would rather quit even though it's mostly tolerable?

You still haven’t commented on the fact that most people, including doctors, who are given enough money to where they are financially independent would actually quit their job or significantly change what they do. Does that mean they’re wasting their best years? I think that’s the rub here that you haven’t commented on... I think if you are honest, the generalization you made about it being “sad” that someone in their 30s would only work for money (even for a time) is wrong and hypocritical.

When I have polled multiple audiences of physicians almost none would quit completely if given $10M, but they'd almost all work less!

“One survey found that on average, 45% of resident physicians experience burnout. This ranged from 29.2%-63.8%. The prevalence of career choice regret was between 7.4%-32.7%”
...
“The most recent findings were similar to 2016 with 79% of primary care professionals reporting burnout. This is higher than the 54% of specialists who reported similar symptoms. But of both groups, more than one-third would not recommend their profession to a younger family member.”

https://etactics.com/blog/physician-burnout-statistics

Random google so I haven’t checked sources but somehow I think you are painting a rosier picture than reality...

Those two facts are not mutually exclusive. Lots of people reporting burnout would very much like to work less and have a million bucks but not necessarily stop practicing medicine.

[White Coat Investor]

It's seriously inappropriate for you to be constantly posting how sad you are

It's seriously inappropriate for you to resort to ad hominem attacks rather than making reasonable arguments about the issues being discussed, not to mention the abbreviated profanity.

Dr Dahle, your remarks are (sound?) smug and condescending, i.e., insulting. That's the source of the hostility.

Thanks for the valuable feedback. They weren't intended to be smug, condescending or insulting, but getting the tone right on the internet has never been my strong suit.

I've had jobs I hated and jobs I loved. I'm of the firm belief that most people who hate their jobs simply need a different job, not to retire. That was my only point. Maybe there are a few people in this thread who are not in that "most people" category, dunno. I wish everyone could retire for a while to see if they really like it. I think most young people would not actually like it as much as they imagine they would.

[mmmodem]

It's seriously inappropriate for you to be constantly posting how sad you are

It's seriously inappropriate for you to resort to ad hominem attacks rather than making reasonable arguments about the issues being discussed, not to mention the abbreviated profanity.

Dr Dahle, your remarks are (sound?) smug and condescending, i.e., insulting. That's the source of the hostility.

Interesting. I thought WCI was very respectful in his responses. I also understand it's human behavior to feel insulted when they strongly disagree. I would postulate that there is no way not to appear smug and condescending to the other side when two viewpoints are on opposite ends of the spectrum.

[McGilicutty]

I wonder how many people working at such jobs would turn down a high paying corporate job because it was "too stressful". I suspect most would jump at the opportunity to make significantly more money.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Not everyone is out to make as much money as they can regardless of the cost to their health, free time, preferred location to live, etc.

I wouldn't go back to my old high-paying job for anything less than $1 million per month. Then I would quit after 1 month. There was too much politics, too much unpaid overtime (I was on salary), too much stress in the job (and also having to live in a big city), and just too much about that job I didn't like.

Now I live in a small town and make enough to cover my living expenses by working from home. It's by far the best job I've ever had (although definitely not the best paying job I've ever had)

I agree on Starbucks, though. Working there does not sound fun.

Additionally, I don't consider myself FIRE'd yet. I'm close, but I would consider myself more on a CoastToFire track. To each his own.

[marcopolo]

I wonder how many people working at such jobs would turn down a high paying corporate job because it was "too stressful". I suspect most would jump at the opportunity to make significantly more money.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Not everyone is out to make as much money as they can regardless of the cost to their health, free time, preferred location to live, etc.

I wouldn't go back to my old high-paying job for anything less than $1 million per month. Then I would quit after 1 month. There was too much politics, too much unpaid overtime (I was on salary), too much stress in the job (and also having to live in a big city), and just too much about that job I didn't like.

Now I live in a small town and make enough to cover my living expenses by working from home. It's by far the best job I've ever had (although definitely not the best paying job I've ever had)

I agree on Starbucks, though. Working there does not sound fun.

Additionally, I don't consider myself FIRE'd yet. I'm close, but I would consider myself more on a CoastToFire track. To each his own.

I think it is easy (and maybe a little condescending) for people that make a lot of money in what they perceive to be "high stress" jobs to say "i would like one of those low-stress jobs even if they make less money", it is quite another thing to be living paycheck to paycheck at one of those jobs. I am sure some view them as low stress, but i suspect many are just as stressed out doing that as any other job that may pay more.

As I advanced to higher level jobs, I actually think I had less stress. Sure, I had more responsibility, which can be stressful, but I also had a lot more autonomy and control, which more than made up for it.

I am sure there are varying situations, and everyone has a different perspective. But, i was addressing the more general statement about the often mentioned "barista-FIRE" jobs.

[nigel_ht]

I wonder how many people working at such jobs would turn down a high paying corporate job because it was "too stressful". I suspect most would jump at the opportunity to make significantly more money.

I wouldn't be so sure about that. Not everyone is out to make as much money as they can regardless of the cost to their health, free time, preferred location to live, etc.

I wouldn't go back to my old high-paying job for anything less than $1 million per month. Then I would quit after 1 month. There was too much politics, too much unpaid overtime (I was on salary), too much stress in the job (and also having to live in a big city), and just too much about that job I didn't like.

Now I live in a small town and make enough to cover my living expenses by working from home. It's by far the best job I've ever had (although definitely not the best paying job I've ever had)

I agree on Starbucks, though. Working there does not sound fun.

Additionally, I don't consider myself FIRE'd yet. I'm close, but I would consider myself more on a CoastToFire track. To each his own.

I think it is easy (and maybe a little condescending) for people that make a lot of money in what they perceive to be "high stress" jobs to say "i would like one of those low-stress jobs even if they make less money", it is quite another thing to be living paycheck to paycheck at one of those jobs. I am sure some view them as low stress, but i suspect many are just as stressed out doing that as any other job that may pay more.

As I advanced to higher level jobs, I actually think I had less stress. Sure, I had more responsibility, which can be stressful, but I also had a lot more autonomy and control, which more than made up for it.

I am sure there are varying situations, and everyone has a different perspective. But, i was addressing the more general statement about the often mentioned "barista-FIRE" jobs.

There are a million differences between barista FIRE and barista living...

[jello_nailer]

[/quote]

Then after your money is gone, you can try ForestFIRE, which is where you go into the woods and live off of nuts and berries.
[/quote]

^ This is the funniest thing I've heard all week!
But the week is not over and the Trump/Biden debate starts in 7 minutes and I suspect they will top this comment. Good one though.

[Kelrex]

Because they felt passionately about helping other people and contributing to the world around them in some meaningful way. Maybe not every last one of them, but certainly most of them.

Right, and I’m passionate about helping others as well and in order for me to do that to its fullest extent I need to work for a few more years in a job that I would rather not do. The grind that medical school is and night shifts are is extremely equivalent to my big tech career which is going to allow me to significantly give back to my family and community in my next venture. Am I wasting the next three years of my life by saving up another $500,000 in job I would rather quit even though it's mostly tolerable?

You still haven’t commented on the fact that most people, including doctors, who are given enough money to where they are financially independent would actually quit their job or significantly change what they do. Does that mean they’re wasting their best years? I think that’s the rub here that you haven’t commented on... I think if you are honest, the generalization you made about it being “sad” that someone in their 30s would only work for money (even for a time) is wrong and hypocritical.

When I have polled multiple audiences of physicians almost none would quit completely if given $10M, but they'd almost all work less!

“One survey found that on average, 45% of resident physicians experience burnout. This ranged from 29.2%-63.8%. The prevalence of career choice regret was between 7.4%-32.7%”
...
“The most recent findings were similar to 2016 with 79% of primary care professionals reporting burnout. This is higher than the 54% of specialists who reported similar symptoms. But of both groups, more than one-third would not recommend their profession to a younger family member.”

https://etactics.com/blog/physician-burnout-statistics

Random google so I haven’t checked sources but somehow I think you are painting a rosier picture than reality...

Those two facts are not mutually exclusive. Lots of people reporting burnout would very much like to work less and have a million bucks but not necessarily stop practicing medicine.

Bingo.

A lot of us medical folks hate the career and love the work.

I retired very early because it was literally killing me.
Thankfully, I don't financially need to work anymore, so that's a huge blessing. However, I'm considering going back to school to specialize in a less demanding specialty so that I can work part time, low stress, indefinitely. I LOVE the work, but the career is a god damn grind that chews a lot of us up.

I also wouldn't recommend it to young people, it's lovely as a paid hobby, but damn, that's an expensive and brutal path to take for work that sucks as a career for many.

For me, I want to keep working forever. My best life includes some degree of work, and probably always will. However, I have pretty finicky standards for what work I'll do. Having gotten to a level of work satisfaction and autonomy, I don't accept paid work easily anymore, it has to be right, and I have to be able to walk away.

There are some people who truly benefit from not working at all, they do exist, and do thrive. However, I think it is probably accurate that they are rarer than people assume.

Whether paid or volunteer, the vast majority of people thrive when feeling useful and valued for their usefulness. I think this is the point WCI is trying to make about how many people might thrive if only they found the right kind of work for them. I do, however, think it's common for med folks to over estimate how easily gratifying work is found.

What's tragic is that people spend so many years in careers that don't allow them to thrive, they become convinced that that's what work is. If it's paid, it's bull. No exceptions.

Basically, if someone never gets the chance in life to get paid for having A LOT of fun being rewarded for being marvelously useful doing something they enjoy...well, that is kind of sad. It's a pretty neat way to live, IME.

That said, I TOTALLY agree that literal barista type jobs don't equate to low stress. Low pay should never be confounded with low stress. I went to school for over a decade specifically to avoid having to do low paying, gruelling, thankless jobs. Thankyouverymuch.

Overall, I think that if someone has a good sense of their ideal post-work life and it doesn't include any kind of paid work, then who are we to question it?

However, if they are like most people who have a hard time envisioning what their ideal life could look like? Do they not love their current job? Then it might be worth considering dumping the current plan and trying something different, perhaps some more rewarding work.

[TheNightsToCome]

deleted

[TheNightsToCome]

Right, and I’m passionate about helping others as well and in order for me to do that to its fullest extent I need to work for a few more years in a job that I would rather not do. The grind that medical school is and night shifts are is extremely equivalent to my big tech career which is going to allow me to significantly give back to my family and community in my next venture. Am I wasting the next three years of my life by saving up another $500,000 in job I would rather quit even though it's mostly tolerable?

You still haven’t commented on the fact that most people, including doctors, who are given enough money to where they are financially independent would actually quit their job or significantly change what they do. Does that mean they’re wasting their best years? I think that’s the rub here that you haven’t commented on... I think if you are honest, the generalization you made about it being “sad” that someone in their 30s would only work for money (even for a time) is wrong and hypocritical.

When I have polled multiple audiences of physicians almost none would quit completely if given $10M, but they'd almost all work less!

“One survey found that on average, 45% of resident physicians experience burnout. This ranged from 29.2%-63.8%. The prevalence of career choice regret was between 7.4%-32.7%”
...
“The most recent findings were similar to 2016 with 79% of primary care professionals reporting burnout. This is higher than the 54% of specialists who reported similar symptoms. But of both groups, more than one-third would not recommend their profession to a younger family member.”

https://etactics.com/blog/physician-burnout-statistics

Random google so I haven’t checked sources but somehow I think you are painting a rosier picture than reality...

Those two facts are not mutually exclusive. Lots of people reporting burnout would very much like to work less and have a million bucks but not necessarily stop practicing medicine.

However, I'm considering going back to school to specialize in a less demanding specialty so that I can work part time, low stress, indefinitely.

Please explain. You retired from your medical career, but now you think you might like to apply for a residency position in a new specialty?

[nigel_ht]

Right, and I’m passionate about helping others as well and in order for me to do that to its fullest extent I need to work for a few more years in a job that I would rather not do. The grind that medical school is and night shifts are is extremely equivalent to my big tech career which is going to allow me to significantly give back to my family and community in my next venture. Am I wasting the next three years of my life by saving up another $500,000 in job I would rather quit even though it's mostly tolerable?

You still haven’t commented on the fact that most people, including doctors, who are given enough money to where they are financially independent would actually quit their job or significantly change what they do. Does that mean they’re wasting their best years? I think that’s the rub here that you haven’t commented on... I think if you are honest, the generalization you made about it being “sad” that someone in their 30s would only work for money (even for a time) is wrong and hypocritical.

When I have polled multiple audiences of physicians almost none would quit completely if given $10M, but they'd almost all work less!

“One survey found that on average, 45% of resident physicians experience burnout. This ranged from 29.2%-63.8%. The prevalence of career choice regret was between 7.4%-32.7%”
...
“The most recent findings were similar to 2016 with 79% of primary care professionals reporting burnout. This is higher than the 54% of specialists who reported similar symptoms. But of both groups, more than one-third would not recommend their profession to a younger family member.”

https://etactics.com/blog/physician-burnout-statistics

Random google so I haven’t checked sources but somehow I think you are painting a rosier picture than reality...

Those two facts are not mutually exclusive. Lots of people reporting burnout would very much like to work less and have a million bucks but not necessarily stop practicing medicine.

Bingo.

A lot of us medical folks hate the career and love the work.

I retired very early because it was literally killing me.
Thankfully, I don't financially need to work anymore, so that's a huge blessing. However, I'm considering going back to school to specialize in a less demanding specialty so that I can work part time, low stress, indefinitely. I LOVE the work, but the career is a god damn grind that chews a lot of us up.
...
However, if they are like most people who have a hard time envisioning what their ideal life could look like? Do they not love their current job? Then it might be worth considering dumping the current plan and trying something different, perhaps some more rewarding work.

Not everyone has the luxury of making sufficient money in a short period to not have to work anymore. Some folks don’t have the option to dump “the current plan” and have to keep working at jobs that are killing them.

If you can do a high paying career early that isn’t your passion and save a lot of money then you can go pursue more rewarding work. That’s not sad. That’s lucky.

I dunno. I find it difficult to not roll my eyes when folks in the 90th percentile of income lecture others about how most folks have difficulty in envisioning their ideal life with fulfilling work.

[Kelrex]

When I have polled multiple audiences of physicians almost none would quit completely if given $10M, but they'd almost all work less!

“One survey found that on average, 45% of resident physicians experience burnout. This ranged from 29.2%-63.8%. The prevalence of career choice regret was between 7.4%-32.7%”
...
“The most recent findings were similar to 2016 with 79% of primary care professionals reporting burnout. This is higher than the 54% of specialists who reported similar symptoms. But of both groups, more than one-third would not recommend their profession to a younger family member.”

https://etactics.com/blog/physician-burnout-statistics

Random google so I haven’t checked sources but somehow I think you are painting a rosier picture than reality...

Those two facts are not mutually exclusive. Lots of people reporting burnout would very much like to work less and have a million bucks but not necessarily stop practicing medicine.

Bingo.

A lot of us medical folks hate the career and love the work.

I retired very early because it was literally killing me.
Thankfully, I don't financially need to work anymore, so that's a huge blessing. However, I'm considering going back to school to specialize in a less demanding specialty so that I can work part time, low stress, indefinitely. I LOVE the work, but the career is a god damn grind that chews a lot of us up.
...
However, if they are like most people who have a hard time envisioning what their ideal life could look like? Do they not love their current job? Then it might be worth considering dumping the current plan and trying something different, perhaps some more rewarding work.

Not everyone has the luxury of making sufficient money in a short period to not have to work anymore. Some folks don’t have the option to dump “the current plan” and have to keep working at jobs that are killing them.

If you can do a high paying career early that isn’t your passion and save a lot of money then you can go pursue more rewarding work. That’s not sad. That’s lucky.

I think you misunderstand my point.

That's what I'm saying as well.
If someone has saved a bunch of money and has the option to "Coast" doing more meaningful work, then that might be a better option to consider than dragging along in the high stress work until full FI.

It might not be, but it's worth considering as an option if they hate their job but also can't picture a happy life after it.

Of course if someone truly can't, they can't.

[surfstar]

It's not just "Do I enjoy my days off more than the days I go to work?" It's "Do I want ALL days off, or is my overall life better if I only have some days off and I work some days?" To those who think they want all days off, I would encourage them to take a few weeks or months and try it. I suspect most who do so will discover that work still has a meaningful place in their life, especially if they're in their 30s. They just want to do it at a time and in a manner of their own choosing.

I'm still in my 30s for another month. Every time we take a vacation, returning to work... sucks. The longer the vacation, the more it sucks to return.

We could easily fill 100% of our time, enjoyably, with 0% work. Eventually we might get bored enough to volunteer, but I don't foresee that happening.

If you'd like to fund our FIRE, we can be your test subjects. If we start doing activities that appear to be "work" - we lose and have to return your money.

This could be fun. How much do you need?

Seriously though, do you have enough to go take a year off? I wonder if knowing it is a vacation and you'll have to return changes things.

Haha - thanks for responding - It wasn't needed or expected.
While we could take a year off fiscally, I don't think our employers would oblige.
Every vacation or long weekend, results in the same thing upon returning to work: I coined it PTFD *

Post Traumatic Fun Disorder

...and then we count the work days as "another day closer to retirement", while planning our next trip/adventure. There are just so many things we would like to do, but unfortunately time and money are limiting. We could easily fill the remaining [hopefully] 40+ years of our lives and never want for work again.
Backpack the JMT. Backpack NZ and other places. Climb all over the US. Climb in other countries. Surf all over. Dive all over. Snowboard all over. Get "bored" and take up new things like MTB, paragliding, and so on...

I'll be 40 next month, and if things go as planned, we'll have more than enough to FIRE by age 50. We realize that things may change depending upon parent's health (work longer to fund care vs taking time off to personally help), whether we receive any inheritances (we would be surprised and are not planning on a cent) and a list of unknowns we haven't thought of. Worst case, we dirtbag it in a Van and live on a shoestring and would likely be just as happy as we are now.

As was stated earlier in the thread - a lot of this can come down to genetics and instilled values. I've always said that it is a Catch-22: if you are driven enough to work hard and become financially successful; it is unlikely that you are the type of person who'd be happy to never work. Fortunately or unfortunately, that is not me.

* I mean no disrespect to anyone who suffers from PTSD, especially those who have served our nation. It is just a phrase I found that describes my "case of the Mundays" upon returning to work.

[Kelrex]

However, I'm considering going back to school to specialize in a less demanding specialty so that I can work part time, low stress, indefinitely.

Please explain. You retired from your medical career, but now you think you might like to apply for a residency position in a new specialty?

Yeah, exactly. I'm considering it.

[sd323232]

It's seriously inappropriate for you to be constantly posting how sad you are

It's seriously inappropriate for you to resort to ad hominem attacks rather than making reasonable arguments about the issues being discussed, not to mention the abbreviated profanity.

Dr Dahle, your remarks are (sound?) smug and condescending, i.e., insulting. That's the source of the hostility.

Thanks for the valuable feedback. They weren't intended to be smug, condescending or insulting, but getting the tone right on the internet has never been my strong suit.

I've had jobs I hated and jobs I loved. I'm of the firm belief that most people who hate their jobs simply need a different job, not to retire. That was my only point. Maybe there are a few people in this thread who are not in that "most people" category, dunno. I wish everyone could retire for a while to see if they really like it. I think most young people would not actually like it as much as they imagine they would.

It impossible to explain to some people just how much out of touch with reality they are. Just like you cant explain to person who never experienced hunger (and has unlimited access to food) that there are people dying of starvation in this world. That person would just reply "how come they dont want to eat, they should trying eating, then they wouldnt be dying from hunger"

[TheNightsToCome]

However, I'm considering going back to school to specialize in a less demanding specialty so that I can work part time, low stress, indefinitely.

Please explain. You retired from your medical career, but now you think you might like to apply for a residency position in a new specialty?

Yeah, exactly. I'm considering it.

If you do, please start a thread regarding the process. I'd be interested to hear how it went.

[whiskeymike]

All roads lead to Dublin!
This could have been a good discussion
Oh well
wm

[JimmyJammy]

And I thought COAST FIRE meant retiring on one of the HCOL US coasts!

[coalcracker]

It's seriously inappropriate for you to be constantly posting how sad you are

It's seriously inappropriate for you to resort to ad hominem attacks rather than making reasonable arguments about the issues being discussed, not to mention the abbreviated profanity.

Dr Dahle, your remarks are (sound?) smug and condescending, i.e., insulting. That's the source of the hostility.

Thanks for the valuable feedback. They weren't intended to be smug, condescending or insulting, but getting the tone right on the internet has never been my strong suit.

I've had jobs I hated and jobs I loved. I'm of the firm belief that most people who hate their jobs simply need a different job, not to retire. That was my only point. Maybe there are a few people in this thread who are not in that "most people" category, dunno. I wish everyone could retire for a while to see if they really like it. I think most young people would not actually like it as much as they imagine they would.

At the risk of sounding smug/condescending/insulting, many (most?) working Joes and Janes, especially those in blue collar and retail jobs, don't have the option and perhaps not the desire to look for a different job, even if they hate their current one. A paycheck is a paycheck.

Can you imagine a world in which everyone followed their passions? Seriously. Do you think anyone is passionate about paving roads or packing groceries? Many jobs suck, and I'm happy someone's willing to do them for money. Following one's passion is a luxury for the wealthy, once Maslow's lower level hierarchy of needs are met.

I do agree with you, Jim, that the "life of leisure" is not all it's cracked up to be for many people. As a young teenager, I would fantasize about the good life, hanging out and watching TV all day with nothing to do (I was a lazy kid). Later in life, during my intern year, I had a couple months in which I did essentially that and almost went off the deep end from boredom.

My plan is to go part time in my medical specialty in the next few years and "coast" indefinitely while developing some sweet retirement hobbies

[flyingaway]

My son's roommate, after graduating from college and 15 months on a software developer job, just quitted his job, calming it is too much stressful. He plans to find an easy job at McDonald's.
If he does this, he will be coasting for quite some time.

[dougcoates]

I guess Coast FIRE is partly what I'm doing.

I'm a self-employed consultant, and thus have a lot of control over my workload. I'm 68 now (wish I'd started reading FIRE blogs when I was 40), and still working.

In my early 60's I realized that the daily grind was grinding me into the ground, in a way that made some significant health issues worse. I realized I needed to reduce my workload in order to be healthier in my retirement years. The 401K and the IRAs had about $1M in them, and my wife brings in good money, so I felt I had some room to make changes.

After some thought, I:

o put a lid on my entrepreneurial aspirations, recognizing there was no longer time for further development of the current business or new businesses that I was always thinking up.

o gradually reduced my workload by about 40%, by dropping lot of my smaller clients, and dropping my biggest client that was driving me nuts after having worked for them for over 25 years.

o decided I would start taking social security at age 70 instead of at 66 when I normally would. The delay would increase my SS income in retirement by about 32% under current rules.

o decided to completely retire at when I turned 68

o decided that during the gap years (age 68 to 70 when I would start taking social security) I could probably cover the bills by earning pick-up money from a few of the smaller clients, by relying on my wife's income more, by discontinuing contributions to the 401k and by adjusting my lifestyle.

o picked up a few leisure time activities so I would have an alternative to the habit of working all the time.

o etc.

That left me earning decent money from my 2nd biggest client, and more money from a few smaller clients that don't generate much revenue but I like working with them. If the above plan didn't work out, I could always start taking social security earlier or start taking smaller amounts of money from the retirement accounts to supplement our income.

Then life happened. Covid hit us, and a 2nd business that I also own (but don't need to spend much time managing) was directly impacted financially, potentially increase my expenses by maybe $5K per month. Also, I realized the substantial income that my wife earns managing a small mental health services hospital could disappear overnight during a pandemic. Also, I was in the middle of a major project for that big client that could take up to another year to complete, and I didn't feel it was fair for me to quit the client in the middle of a major project that they would have lots of trouble finding someone else to complete.

So I blew through the age 68 full retirement plan, and now I'm hoping to reach full retirement at age 69. Meanwhile, the retirement accounts have grown to $1.3M.

At 69, with 1.85 years to go on this plan, I guess I am doing Coast FIRE, when life doesn't interfere with it.

[CyclingDuo]

Thanks, Cycling Duo. You're always good at answering my questions.

Fondly, Peter

The only experience we have with this method was how we saved for our children's college educations. We front loaded them heavily with just about everything we could throw at them (which we were able to do as we had no debt and didn't have children until we were in our late 20's, early 30's), and then let those accounts grow for 18-24 years. Worked out pretty well, so I can imagine extrapolating that for a 35-45 year time frame under the context of the terminology Coast FIRE.

CyclingDuo

I should add that our children each had UTMA accounts that we started when they were born that we front loaded for college education costs. As mentioned above, that worked out well over the first 24 years and covered college costs. Converting the UTMA's to their own brokerage accounts was done at graduation and in essence, these accounts have the potential, along with the IRA's and 401k's they each have to work as a Coast FIRE situation as they are approaching a combined amount that could end up being Coast FIRE by age 30 where they wouldn't need to contribute much, if any to them beyond that and just let the accounts grow for a few decades.

However, I'm not willing to use my kids as guinea pigs over the next 30-35+ years to see if it works out for them or not, so will continue advising them to keep contributing to their 401k's and Roth IRA's.

[White Coat Investor]

All right, so after doing a Twitter poll, I owe an apology to some people in this thread. Apparently very, very few people are working primarily for non-monetary reasons. Check it out:

[bog007]

yup. human love da money

[nigel_ht]

Thanks, Cycling Duo. You're always good at answering my questions.

Fondly, Peter

The only experience we have with this method was how we saved for our children's college educations. We front loaded them heavily with just about everything we could throw at them (which we were able to do as we had no debt and didn't have children until we were in our late 20's, early 30's), and then let those accounts grow for 18-24 years. Worked out pretty well, so I can imagine extrapolating that for a 35-45 year time frame under the context of the terminology Coast FIRE.

CyclingDuo

I should add that our children each had UTMA accounts that we started when they were born that we front loaded for college education costs. As mentioned above, that worked out well over the first 24 years and covered college costs. Converting the UTMA's to their own brokerage accounts was done at graduation and in essence, these accounts have the potential, along with the IRA's and 401k's they each have to work as a Coast FIRE situation as they are approaching a combined amount that could end up being Coast FIRE by age 30 where they wouldn't need to contribute much, if any to them beyond that and just let the accounts grow for a few decades.

However, I'm not willing to use my kids as guinea pigs over the next 30-35+ years to see if it works out for them or not, so will continue advising them to keep contributing to their 401k's and Roth IRA's.

Are they guinea pigs of simply exploiting the knowledge and money you’ve gained over the years to be able to concentrate more on the top rather than bottom of the Maslow Hierarchy?

Sure they should work but they can go for those less financially remunerative careers with the safety of knowing retirement is covered if they can just get to that point.

Most folks have to work for money and not passion.

With a moderate pot of money and BH principles our kids don’t have to. I may guide them to a high paying career first but if they can FIRE early they can pursue passion after. Or at least Coast to FIRE doing that.

[sd323232]

All right, so after doing a Twitter poll, I owe an apology to some people in this thread. Apparently very, very few people are working primarily for non-monetary reasons. Check it out:

I dont mean any bad and no disrespect, but you probably lived very privilege life all ur life that it took a twitter poll to figure out that most people work for money and not because they want to work. For most people it is a must to maximize their income so they can pay bills, instead of going for their dream job.

You never had to choose whether to work ur dream job or feed ur family. For some people it is reality they live in, they cant choose their dream job,they have to feed their family.

[kimura king]

I only work for money. I have tons of hobbies I would pursue if I wasn't so strapped for time. Wife works and travels overnight 2-3 nights a week so I'm alone with 2 kids racing to daycare, work all day after a 40 minute commute, dealing with work, race home and driving kids to dance, gymnastics, soccer practice at night. Family is too worried about covid so they won't help with the kids right now.

I'm not complaining or unhappy, but work isn't something I do for fun.

I'll add to the dad jokes - Have you guys heard of FIRE BALL? Where you work until you are so stressed you need a shot of fireball to take care of it?

[White Coat Investor]

You never had to choose whether to work ur dream job or feed ur family. For some people it is reality they live in, they cant choose their dream job,they have to feed their family.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions there. You might be surprised to learn I used to donate plasma for grocery money. But yes, I'm working my dream job at this time.

[ktd]

My dream job is take my kids to school, clean the house, cook, pick them up from school, playing games with them. It doesn't pay so I play the hand I am dealt until FIRE.

[stoptothink]

You never had to choose whether to work ur dream job or feed ur family. For some people it is reality they live in, they cant choose their dream job,they have to feed their family.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions there. You might be surprised to learn I used to donate plasma for grocery money. But yes, I'm working my dream job at this time.

I actually had my "dream job" 15yrs ago; I was training collegiate athletes for the NFL and NBA combines, and working with professional MMA fighters on their strength and conditioning. Other than being the head S&C coach for a professional or collegiate team, I was essentially at the top of the industry as I was working at possibly the world's most renowned athletic training facility. I actually turned out to hate the job (and it wasn't just the specific company, because I hated it worse at 2 competitors). Then went into public health thinking I could use my education and expertise in exercise/nutrition/lifestyle-related health to help more people, because I thought all I really wanted to do was help (A LOT of) people be more healthy. Hated it even more, and accomplished even less. Could never have convinced me a year before I started, that I would be doing what I do now and for the company I do it for, but it's a lot more enjoyable day-to-day and the money is better. It's interesting what you actually end up enjoying; seems to me that once you get really good at something and see that it is making a difference, you tend to like it more. I definitely wouldn't do it for free, but my enjoyment of it is IMO pretty high up there as far as job satisfaction is concerned.

[sd323232]

You never had to choose whether to work ur dream job or feed ur family. For some people it is reality they live in, they cant choose their dream job,they have to feed their family.

I think you're making a lot of assumptions there. You might be surprised to learn I used to donate plasma for grocery money. But yes, I'm working my dream job at this time.

point taken, this post was very interesting discussion, as someone who is currently marching towards the FI, i hope to be in ur position in the future

[nigel_ht]

My dream job is take my kids to school, clean the house, cook, pick them up from school, playing games with them. It doesn't pay so I play the hand I am dealt until FIRE.

You failed MarriageFIRE...where you can claim to have FIRE’d while living off your spouse...maybe there’s an official term for it since so many have done that...

[Normchad]

All right, so after doing a Twitter poll, I owe an apology to some people in this thread. Apparently very, very few people are working primarily for non-monetary reasons. Check it out:

Kudos to you for taking the time to conduct a poll,I appreciate it. I’m assuming most respondents are doctors, but even so, the results are very interesting. A point that might lost someplace is, a lot of people are working for the money. But in a lot of cases, they get more from work than just the paycheck, although the pay is most important. I.e. “i regret becoming a teacher. This is low paid and thankless, but I can’t quit. Even so, I still like knowing I make a difference in some children’s life’s”.

[tdmp]

In the USA: I think one of biggest reason why people don't COAST and take lower paying job or working part time, etc . is lack of health insurance if you don't work full time. If there were some sort of universal health care, then people would be more inclined to hop from 1 job to another, work less hours, or simply work less days. Many times people stay in miserable job b/c of health care insurance. A friend of mine said he will work until he hits 65 so he can have medicare. He is 63 now and could have comfortably COAST 10 years ago; but is working at a stressful job b/c of health insurance.

[dachshunddad]

I think White Coat Investor was trying to be encouraging and more along the lines of anazlyze your goals and career and maybe there are alternatives. It certainly made me think. I have been thinking of ways to work less but for longer to increase satisfaction. For others, killing it now in a hard job is a plan so they can switch to something enjoyable that would pay less. Both ways are good in my opinion. I think the overall sentiment is to be thoughtful about it. The most fulfilled people are those with passions, goals, and challenges. These can be paid or unpaid but being thoughtful and intentional is a good start.

[nigel_ht]

In the USA: I think one of biggest reason why people don't COAST and take lower paying job or working part time, etc . is lack of health insurance if you don't work full time. If there were some sort of universal health care, then people would be more inclined to hop from 1 job to another, work less hours, or simply work less days. Many times people stay in miserable job b/c of health care insurance. A friend of mine said he will work until he hits 65 so he can have medicare. He is 63 now and could have comfortably COAST 10 years ago; but is working at a stressful job b/c of health insurance.

Well, while it’s a heck of a lot easier to talk about being an expat vs being one, but if it weren’t for covid I’d say go live in another country for 2 years until 65 and use expat insurance to gap.

https://www.millennial-revolution.com/i ... insurance/

Some countries are safer than here but probably wouldn’t let us in...