Dying Broke (On Purpose) Article

[MortgageOnBlack]

My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.

There is another way: leave any remaining funds to charity.

This is the best plan for me. If I feel I don't have strong meaningful relationships, that is what I intend to do.

[Tejfyy]

“With each year that passes … our ability to convert dollars into positive life experiences declines over time,”

If I were to spend a lot more money than I do, it would not be on positive experiences. Not sure what it would be. So I don't spend more. Running through all, or most of, my money during my life is not a goal, even if one relaxes the requirement of dying with zero or a negative net worth.

Maybe this sums it up well.

"Enough is as good as a feast."
- British proverb

I also don't think in terms of "converting dollars into positive" life experiences, nor are my most extraordinary experiences associated with money, on the contrary, they have consisted of exquisitely enough of whatever was to be had.

I don't believe the moment of death is utterly out of my hands either, and plan to take advantage of whatever right-to-die mechanisms are available and desired. Given that, I still wouldn't make as a goal spending but living, living it up.

[iamblessed]

My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.

I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

[arcticpineapplecorp.]

unfortunately (or fortunately?) my birth certificate does not list an expiration date.

[willthrill81]

My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.

I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

I know of a family distantly related to my own where the inheritance destroyed the family. The parents scrimped like few here could understand. They didn't even by toilet paper using something...reusable...in its place. I believe that when they passed away, they left about $250k behind for their several adult children, and bickering over it drove a wedge between them that never went away.

OTOH, I know of another family where the parents gave away most of their assets when they were still alive, being very careful to be totally open with their children and exactly equal all around, and it definitely helped their children financially without creating any divisiveness at all.

YMMV.

[MathIsMyWayr]

My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.

I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.

[MathIsMyWayr]

Would anybody consider just ending their own life when the money ran out?

I don’t personally have a burning desire to live an extremely long life. I wouldn’t want to be 90 or more.....

When I was a college freshman or a sophomore, I thought that there's no point living beyond age 40. When I was young and ..., I was young and ...

[tman9999]

I love this idea. Been thinking about it a lot lately - decumulation, and how to make our savings last for 30-40 years in retirement with almost no DB pension income apart from SSA.

I was just reading an article about how many retirees get stuck on a total savings number and do everything they can to preserve it. The article claims that “most” retirees still have 80% of their saved up funds remaining 20 years after they retire! That’s crazy. Why did we work so hard to save up money for retirement, only to then sit there and try not to spend it? It’s fear of running out, and that’s all.

So: bring back the tontine. Figure out a way to drive it with blockchain for security, low cost of operations and anonymity. Solved. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tontine

[rgs92]

I'm starting to think the best approach is to be in your 80s or 90s with a big mortgage and as little equity in your house as possible (as long as you have ample income to support it, ideally from single- or joint-life annuities and social security).

[MathIsMyWayr]

I'm starting to think the best approach is to be in your 80s or 90s with a big mortgage and as little equity in your house as possible (as long as you have ample income to support it, ideally from single- or joint-life annuities and social security).

Depending on whether you can find dumb bankers.

[Kaktus]

You may find this article about Chuck Feeney interesting. https://www.forbes.com/sites/stevenbert ... efff693a2a

Thanks for the link. I found it interesting. What a generous man.....

Chuck Feeney is a mensch

I figured it was a compliment, but looked it up to be certain.

The key to being 'a real mensch' is nothing less than character, rectitude, dignity, a sense of what is right, responsible, decorous." The term is used as a high compliment, implying the rarity and value of that individual's qualities. ...

Well said. I agree

Indeed, what a man. And it's not only that Feeney and his wife gave it all away, they did it incognito as much as possible. He did not want his name put on buildings or any gloryfying foundation after he is gone. The billions are now simply dispersed.

[deserat]

My goal is to die with my last check of $10M bounced.

I'm not sure you have to wait until your deathbed. You could probably bounce a$10 million check today. Might as well get that off your bucket list.

Wish there was an upvote on this forum - I laughed out loud at this as well...

[stoptothink]

Would anybody consider just ending their own life when the money ran out?

I don’t personally have a burning desire to live an extremely long life. I wouldn’t want to be 90 or more.....

When I was a college freshman or a sophomore, I thought that there's no point living beyond age 40. When I was young and ..., I was young and ...

Ha, I told my wife when we were getting married that she'll get the 8 best years of my life...she has 5.5 more months.

[DesertDiva]

If you knew the exact day you would die, then you could plan it like that.

However since we don't know that day, we don't want to be eating dog food in our twilight years. It's better to be over prepared than under prepared.

+1 Precisely! People often ignore the spouse that gets left behind or the fact that they may live a whole lot longer than they anticipated. Failure to plan for your own older years is simply foolish.

[tman9999]

If you knew the exact day you would die, then you could plan it like that.

However since we don't know that day, we don't want to be eating dog food in our twilight years. It's better to be over prepared than under prepared.

+1 Precisely! People often ignore the spouse that gets left behind or the fact that they may live a whole lot longer than they anticipated. Failure to plan for your own older years is simply foolish.

Tontines for both. Bring back the tontine!

[iamblessed]

My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.

I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.

True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.

[Robot Monster]

My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.

I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.

True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.

You're in my will, iamblessed. Okay, I'm just gonna say that that for the next 40 years. Just as an experiment.

[DesertDiva]

My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.

I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.

True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.

Planning on receiving a inheritance is no different than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But any financial plan based on promises of a future inheritance is foolish.

Failure to plan is planning to fail.

[willthrill81]

My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.

I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.

True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.

People shouldn't count an receiving an inheritance, regardless of what their parents (or someone else) says or for how long. But it's undeniable that most do just that.

Expectancy theory states that satisfaction is determined by comparing expectations to performance perceptions. If the performance perceptions are poorer than expectations, the result is dissatisfaction. That's clearly what happened in the instance you refer to.

[iamblessed]

I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.

True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.

Planning on a inheritance is no better than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But the promise of a future inheritance is not a wise retirement strategy.

Failure to plan is planning to fail.

True but if it were my will. I would say you are in it or it is going to the church. I think it is cruel to lead someone on for many years. I have seen that happen several times.

[stoptothink]

My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.

I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.

True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.

Happened to my mom and 5 of her siblings; her youngest sister took advantage of my step-grandmother's dementia and became executor in her last year of life. Miraculously everything (we believe mid 7-figures in real estate and investments) was left to the one sister and her kids 3 (individually). Absolutely destroyed a once very close family. It's on my mom for not getting herself in a better financial position, but it was hard seeing her go through that. FWIW, she had also told us (her 5 blood children) that we would be included in the will (I assume similarly to my 3 cousins). I don't think any of us ever really thought about it, so it wasn't a big deal to us.

[DesertDiva]

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.

True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.

Planning on a inheritance is no better than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But the promise of a future inheritance is not a wise retirement strategy.

Failure to plan is planning to fail.

True but if it were my will. I would say you are in it or it is going to the church. I think it is cruel to lead someone on for many years. I have seen that happen several times.

So you unexpectedly go into a nursing home and burn through your assets. Despite your best intentions, you leave behind far less than expected... or you live to 105... in my own family, I’ve seen people not plan for their own future based on promises, and the aforementioned events occurred.

[iamblessed]

Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.

True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.

Planning on a inheritance is no better than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But the promise of a future inheritance is not a wise retirement strategy.

Failure to plan is planning to fail.

True but if it were my will. I would say you are in it or it is going to the church. I think it is cruel to lead someone on for many years. I have seen that happen several times.

So you unexpectedly go into a nursing home and burn through your assets. Despite your best intentions, you leave behind far less than expected... or you live to 105... in my own family, I’ve seen people not plan for their own future based on promises, and the aforementioned events occurred.

I understand that more. With my relatives it was just a flat out 40 year lie or the niece changed the mind of the person passing away. I don't know which but one is a lie and the other is stealing in my mind.

[michaeljc70]

Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.

True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.

Planning on a inheritance is no better than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But the promise of a future inheritance is not a wise retirement strategy.

Failure to plan is planning to fail.

True but if it were my will. I would say you are in it or it is going to the church. I think it is cruel to lead someone on for many years. I have seen that happen several times.

So you unexpectedly go into a nursing home and burn through your assets. Despite your best intentions, you leave behind far less than expected... or you live to 105... in my own family, I’ve seen people not plan for their own future based on promises, and the aforementioned events occurred.

I wouldn't be telling anyone how much they should expect to inherit from me. There was a thread related to this recently. Of course, a lot of things can happen in your last years. However, the average nursing home stay before death is 14 months and the median is 5 months. Though you shouldn't count on an inheritance, not considering it can be poor planning. One reason is it could put you in a much higher tax bracket if you inherit tIRAs with RMDs. I take into mind a potential inheritance when considering doing Roth conversions as an example. Obviously I am not running around spending money I may never get or not saving because of an inheritance that may never come.

[changingtimes]

To kind of go back to the original topic....

As a widow with no direct heirs, I have certainly joked a number of times about wanting to bounce the check to the cemetery on my way off the earth. I have no problem with leaving some money to nieces, nephews, siblings/in-law/charity, but if I just spend my next x number of years sitting on my pile of dough worried about not having enough, I'm going to give THEM more money to spend than I spent myself. I also got to see DH not live to spend the money he accumulated and most definitely wanted to enjoy.

I've started thinking about buying a second home--in talking with my 87(!)-year-old father about it, I told him that of course it's not necessarily the optimal financial move--but that I also don't want to die with $5 million in the bank, which could happen if I don't start spending on what might give me enjoyment. Not that I'm going to buy a palace or go crazy--but if I don't spend at least a little above what I'm taking in, that's going to happen.

Like most people here, I'm pretty prudent about finances--given that I don't have children I am expecting to have to spend a lot more to keep myself comfortable as I get older. But I also want to find the ground between spending like a drunken sailor vs terror that if I spend $1,000 on something nonessential that that means I'll be eating cat food when I'm 80.

[dknightd]

I want to die happy. If being broke makes you happy, then go for it! I think I'd rather die with a few bucks left in the bank. I really do not care what happens to them after I'm dead. I don't want to die broke. At least that is my current thinking.

[JackoC]

True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.

Planning on a inheritance is no better than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But the promise of a future inheritance is not a wise retirement strategy.
Failure to plan is planning to fail.

True but if it were my will. I would say you are in it or it is going to the church. I think it is cruel to lead someone on for many years. I have seen that happen several times.

So you unexpectedly go into a nursing home and burn through your assets. Despite your best intentions, you leave behind far less than expected... or you live to 105... in my own family, I’ve seen people not plan for their own future based on promises, and the aforementioned events occurred.

I understand that more. With my relatives it was just a flat out 40 year lie or the niece changed the mind of the person passing away. I don't know which but one is a lie and the other is stealing in my mind.

Yeah I get that difference, emotional impact of somebody telling you you're going to get the inheritance, the inheritance pans out, but guess what? it goes to someone else, as opposed to they just don't have much money left when they die because of their own expenses and investments. Talking about family relationships ruined by inheritance stuff, the reason is generally perceived favoritism that's perceived betrayal, not bitterness toward the older generation person for incurring high nursing home costs. The heir has to be a real jerk to feel bitter about the latter, though it takes all kinds.

In general have to say, whenever this comes up ('don't be so sure your kids/parents wouldn't cut your legs out from under you') goes in one ear and out the other. There are just different kinds of people and families in the world IME; this kind of stuff doesn't happen randomly. It's a non factor in my outlook and can safely be in our kids' outlook.

But again, if a very conservative approach is being taken because you might live a very long time or rack up high last stage costs, SPIA's and long term care insurance are products to look at. Neither are complete solutions: you cannot get rid of *all* the uncertainties of later life. But nobody should be scrimping out of fear they'll live to 100 or even near it. The 'good' news is that annuities are priced for that as an unlikely outcome, even if you're convinced for some reason it isn't for you. Back to heirs, I don't think anybody should be ashamed to annuitize, thus in simple case that money will go away from heirs' POV, if it avoids excessive worry. Again heirs have to be of low character IMO to have a problem with the older person taking care of their own needs first with their own money.

[kramer]

I am hoping Deferred Annuities become better value over time as they (hopefully) become more popular. They allow a bigger capture of mortality credits than an SPIA and make more sense in the "spend it down" scenario.

[JoeRetire]

My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.

I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

Let's just say I'm not worried about that in my family.

[JoeRetire]

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.

True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.

Planning on a inheritance is no better than expecting to win the lottery. If someone receives an inheritance, thats a bonus. But the promise of a future inheritance is not a wise retirement strategy.

Failure to plan is planning to fail.

True but if it were my will. I would say you are in it or it is going to the church. I think it is cruel to lead someone on for many years. I have seen that happen several times.

Everything my wife and I leave goes to our two sons, divided evenly.

We have told them that. We have never told them how much that will be.

[JoeRetire]

I understand that more. With my relatives it was just a flat out 40 year lie or the niece changed the mind of the person passing away. I don't know which but one is a lie and the other is stealing in my mind.

Or, your relative just changed their mind after 40 years. You don't know.

[MathIsMyWayr]

My ultimate goal in life is to have my last check bounce. I have seen it with my own eyes the way some children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, etc... treat their elders as a ticking payout ready to happen - it's sickening.

I feel sorry for you. That must feel very disheartening.

But everyone's family is different. That hasn't happened (and won't happen) in my family, or in any family I personally know.

Be careful what you say. I had a relative think everything was ok in the family for many years (decades). Then a they found out a niece stole their inheritance. The niece stepped in the last couple of years of the person's life. The person I know was told for 40 years they would be in the will by the person that passed away.

Everything was not ok with the family not because of the niece but because of the expecting person you know.

True but what would you think if someone told you for 40 years you are in their will? I would think 95% of people would be expecting at that point.

If you want to be nice to or help someone, do it not as a person of a good business sense but as a person of a good character.

[Duckinator]

Dad passed away in his 90's and flat out never enjoyed his money - and he had plenty of it. Too cheap to live in a decent apt, buy eyeglasses, false teeth, take that "expensive prescription" every day, etc. Mom (86) is close to the same - I have been pushing her to buy herself some nice things. I've heard others talk of saving money for all their life has made it difficult to spent it in their twilight years.

[Broken Man 1999]

Dad passed away in his 90's and flat out never enjoyed his money - and he had plenty of it. Too cheap to live in a decent apt, buy eyeglasses, false teeth, take that "expensive prescription" every day, etc. Mom (86) is close to the same - I have been pushing her to buy herself some nice things. I've heard others talk of saving money for all their life has made it difficult to spent it in their twilight years.

Stick around and you will see the occasional discussion here started by someone who just can't give up saving and move to the spending of their retirement portfolio.

It always strikes me as a very sad lifestyle.

Broken Man 1999

[tesuzuki2002]

we don't want to be eating dog food in our twilight years.

Why is it always dog food? Plenty of alternatives that provide a better value.

[FIREchief]

we don't want to be eating dog food in our twilight years.

Why is it always dog food? Plenty of alternatives that provide a better value.

My cat's fancy feast is 50 cents a can. Ramen is 27 cents a package. Some days, my cat's lunch costs about twice what mine costs.

(he's a good cat )

[manuvns]

a whole lot of people die broke because they never save , some even ask money from kids . heck look at the US deficits .

[AngelFIRE]

Interesting thread. My father loves the book and even now will joke about dying broke- he is 85 and my mom is 82. I have had many arguments with him over the years. I have no objection to enjoying life and experiences but the « die broke » mantra seems to me to be an excuse to be irresponsible or to take unnecessary risks. That was my experience at living with this. No thanks!

[JPM]

I knew a lady who used to say, and say for many years, that her ambition was to die on public aid in a nursing home and to enjoy spending every nickel she and her prosperous husband had saved. She got her wish, though she probably ended up spending more on medical and less on fun than she would have preferred..