Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

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RobLyons
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Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by RobLyons »

I recently joined Chris Hogan's official Facebook finance group "Hogan's Everyday Millionaires" in which Chris Hogan posts himself often. There was a post yesterday in the group asking for personal opinions as how to start investing or how to optimize investing. User seemed overwhelmed/confused as to what path to take. I offered the Bogleheads strategy with a link to Taylor's infamous post about the Three-Fund portfolio here.

Well my post was removed and my comments were shut off with a note from the admins:

"Please do not advocate in this group for using index funds as the first option for investing. They only mirror the market and there are mutual funds.."
my screen shot ends there...


Interestingly enough I searched the spin off group "Everyday Millionaires" after the fact and noticed dozens of recent posts indicating many members are being banned from Hogan's group for offering any advice outside of the Ramsey and Hogan mantra of mutual funds and professionally managed accounts. These posts from the banned members appeared to be thoughtful, intuitive, and not outside the realm of normal water cooler chat. Many believe Hogan's admins do this for financial purposes but to me it seems a bit extreme to remove any discussion outside of regurgitating exactly what they preach.

Now, I'm not offended or hurt at all. I was a new member and was more curious than anything else in joining the page. Bogleheads is my go-to and has been for years.

So I guess what I'm wondering if anyone has seen this type of censorship anywhere else online in the finance or other sectors? Thanks!
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whodidntante
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by whodidntante »

Dave will be for index funds if they can make him more money. One must cultivate an echo chamber and keep it pure. You can advocate for active funds if you like here, but if you shill for financial advisors you probably wouldn't be welcome here very long.
Last edited by whodidntante on Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
grettman
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by grettman »

Haven't seen it. Haven't looked for it either.

It is not surprising. Nor is there anything wrong with it.

Ramsey is out to make money peddling his referral business and is using social media to do that.

Reader/Buyer beware. His investing advice is terrible and he steers people to advisors who are willing to pay him a fee.
Housedoc
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Housedoc »

Hogan is a bag of hot air, his advice has been poor but he entertains the media shows that have him on.
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JoMoney
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by JoMoney »

RobLyons wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:50 am...
So I guess what I'm wondering if anyone has seen this type of censorship anywhere else online in the finance or other sectors? Thanks!
Yes.
Pretty sure this forum left Morningstar's forums so that they could "moderate" in their own fashion.
Diet can be a subject where you get people with strong opposing opinions as well, and I've seen groups that censor certain food topics they deem controversial.
Lots of online hubs that make their money through advertising don't allow things that are considered unsafe for their sponsors... that's pretty much the norm in advertising lead media (which is just about all of it).
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Mr.BB
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Mr.BB »

I went to his site to check things out. They have a list of Group Rules, here is one of them. "No Advice Contrary to What We Teach
This is a group for Chris Hogan’s tribe and those striving to be an Everyday Millionaire. Please only give advice that aligns with Chris' message. Thank you."

I understand the need for guidelines to run an online group, my friend has one and he doesn't allow political or anytime of insulting toward other members opinions in his group. You wouldn't believe how many people he has had to ban from his group because they bring in politics or cannot talk civil with other members. But everyone is free to discuss their own views/beliefs regarding the group's subject. Here they you have to agree only with Chris Hogan's point of view, that is a problem. FYI I also found a FB group page "Hogan’s Everyday Millionaire Rejects"...which I find to be very funny!
Last edited by Mr.BB on Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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JoeRetire
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by JoeRetire »

RobLyons wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:50 amSo I guess what I'm wondering if anyone has seen this type of censorship anywhere else online in the finance or other sectors? Thanks!
That's pretty typical of Facebook Groups. The Admin and Moderators can do anything they choose to guide the conversations.
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Ferdinand2014
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Ferdinand2014 »

This is everywhere with all social media. It can come in the form of confirmation bias or in effect self censoring as that is how most social media adjusts searches and suggestions over time as it learns your behaviors. It can come from group think with characteristics including collective rationalization, belief in inherent morality, direct pressure on dissenters, illusion of unanimity, excessive stereotyping, and mind guards within the group. In your case it is seeded in financial gain, but likely the censors believe or have rationalized what they believe to be true.
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Nate79
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Nate79 »

Sure, all sites have rules, even Bogleheads. Go ahead and try to post a topic on politics or make future law change speculation and see how fast it gets deleted.

Thems the rules.
BalancedJCB19
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by BalancedJCB19 »

Nate79 wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:15 am Sure, all sites have rules, even Bogleheads. Go ahead and try to post a topic on politics or make future law change speculation and see how fast it gets deleted.

Thems the rules.
Very true! I have a friend that left the Bogleheads because he felt the Admins were a bit too harsh with something he posted. I am not a follower of Dave or Chris, but this is not unique to them.
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by z3r0c00l »

Out of curiosity, joined the group just now. There are many rules you must accept before joining including the first three below. At least they are upfront about it, they don't want advice contrary to what they teach. They don't specifically say no index funds, but they do oddly say no FIRE talk. (Wouldn't hate such a policy as FIRE seems like an ill-defined fad rather than a strategy.)

No Profanity
In an effort to keep it G, we do not allow foul language, even if edited. Thank you for understanding.
2
Political posts
This is not a space to share political views. Anything political in nature is not allowed and will be removed. Thank you for understanding.
3
No Advice Contrary to What We Teach
This is a group for Chris Hogan’s tribe and those striving to be an Everyday Millionaire. Please only give advice that aligns with Chris' message. Thank you.
Jags4186
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Jags4186 »

Why would you even want to join that group? Most Ramsey listeners are low IQ investors. Ramsey teaches people to be low IQ investors and doesn’t believe one can or should become a high IQ investor. What use is there participating in that type of discussion?

Most people think managing money is difficult. They think this because most people have no money. What they don't realize is that managing money is easy, it's the earning and savings part that's hard. The no. 1 audience for Dave Ramsey is broke people who know nothing about money.
BeachPerson
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by BeachPerson »

RobLyons wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:50 am I recently joined Chris Hogan's official Facebook finance group "Hogan's Everyday Millionaires" in which Chris Hogan posts himself often. There was a post yesterday in the group asking for personal opinions as how to start investing or how to optimize investing. User seemed overwhelmed/confused as to what path to take. I offered the Bogleheads strategy with a link to Taylor's infamous post about the Three-Fund portfolio here.

Well my post was removed and my comments were shut off with a note from the admins:

"Please do not advocate in this group for using index funds as the first option for investing. They only mirror the market and there are mutual funds.."
my screen shot ends there...


Interestingly enough I searched the spin off group "Everyday Millionaires" after the fact and noticed dozens of recent posts indicating many members are being banned from Hogan's group for offering any advice outside of the Ramsey and Hogan mantra of mutual funds and professionally managed accounts. These posts from the banned members appeared to be thoughtful, intuitive, and not outside the realm of normal water cooler chat. Many believe Hogan's admins do this for financial purposes but to me it seems a bit extreme to remove any discussion outside of regurgitating exactly what they preach.

Now, I'm not offended or hurt at all. I was a new member and was more curious than anything else in joining the page. Bogleheads is my go-to and has been for years.

So I guess what I'm wondering if anyone has seen this type of censorship anywhere else online in the finance or other sectors? Thanks!
Two years ago at church, since the pastor found 80% of people coming to him were about financial problems, he decided to have the entire church take the Dave Ramsey class. I did sit in on the class, but since Dave supports load funds, I refused to buy his material. Attendees in the class thought I was disobedient and bad financially.

Dave just does not get investing.
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BeachPerson
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by BeachPerson »

This is a common problem there: Check the Facebook group "Hogan’s Everyday Millionaire Rejects". You can join that group.

Here is more info there
This page is for anyone who’s been kicked out of the chris hogan group or for anyone! Well talk about financial security, investments, and anything retirement related!
Last edited by BeachPerson on Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:40 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

What do you expect from a person who’s livelihood depends upon him not understanding or wanting to understand that the fastest way to millionaire status is to stop looking for the needle in the haystack but to own the entire haystack.

My relatives in the military were going to visit a SmartVestor pro - then I told them that investing with them will result in them paying higher fees which Dave takes a percentage of through his referral network. They were shocked to hear that. I gave them the link to the Bogleheads and the wiki but I don’t know if they did anything with it.

Hard to become an everyday millionaire when you have to pay a sales charge everytime you make a transaction.
Last edited by Grt2bOutdoors on Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Actin
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Actin »

They get a commission from their "ELP" program because it pushes active mutual funds with 5% front load fees. They remove these posts because people buying index funds doesn't make them any money.

To play devil's advocate, the people who do the Ramsey programs are people with low intelligence, zero common sense, and zero impulse control. They absolutely need someone doing everything for them, even if it costs a fee, or else they will probably just waste their money on consumerism. They are not capable of getting in a computer, setting up an account, and automatically transferring money each money. They still end up with more retirement paying the fee than if they were left on their own to do it so
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Nate79
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Nate79 »

Would you create an index fund FB group and then be happy if a bunch of insurance sales people came on and started try to sell your group WL, VUL, and other horrible products?
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RobLyons
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by RobLyons »

JoeRetire wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:33 am
RobLyons wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:50 amSo I guess what I'm wondering if anyone has seen this type of censorship anywhere else online in the finance or other sectors? Thanks!
That's pretty typical of Facebook Groups. The Admin and Moderators can do anything they choose to guide the conversations.

I've joined over 150 fb groups over the past 10 years and never found a group this restrictive. I'd say it's atypical, especially considering the post was asking for personal opinions.
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RobLyons
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by RobLyons »

Nate79 wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:15 am Sure, all sites have rules, even Bogleheads. Go ahead and try to post a topic on politics or make future law change speculation and see how fast it gets deleted.

Thems the rules.

Right but I didn't make a post about a random non financial topic.
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RobLyons
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by RobLyons »

Jags4186 wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:30 am Why would you even want to join that group? Most Ramsey listeners are low IQ investors. Ramsey teaches people to be low IQ investors and doesn’t believe one can or should become a high IQ investor. What use is there participating in that type of discussion?

Most people think managing money is difficult. They think this because most people have no money. What they don't realize is that managing money is easy, it's the earning and savings part that's hard. The no. 1 audience for Dave Ramsey is broke people who know nothing about money.

I used to watch his YouTube videos, and I enjoy general financial discussion. Also his baby steps are easy to follow, although I do not subscribe to following them in the exact order. It is interesting the point you make about Dave's audience being broke people knowing nothing bout money as these are the people he's making money off of. I find that troubling.
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pondering
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by pondering »

Sometimes the censorship is part of the stated group rules and sometimes it is part of the group norms.

I manage a few Facebook groups and I think this kind of action is normal when people assemble, online and off.
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mmmodem
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by mmmodem »

RobLyons wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:19 am I used to watch his YouTube videos, and I enjoy general financial discussion. Also his baby steps are easy to follow, although I do not subscribe to following them in the exact order. It is interesting the point you make about Dave's audience being broke people knowing nothing bout money as these are the people he's making money off of. I find that troubling.
Really? Huge Dave Ramsey here. I find his financial advice completely free. His radio talk show is free. His books at the library are free. His budgeting app is free. If you call into his talk show, he often gives one his books or one of his classes to you for free. I don’t have issue with him charging low financial literacy people for additional handholding. Not a fan of Chris Hogan. He uses the word intentional too often.
Be intentional with your money.
That phrase has lost all meaning to me

I don’t use Facebook so I can’t comment on that but Bogleheads is by far the most censored forum I’ve ever visited. And guess what? It is by far the most visited forum by me. The mods must be doing something right.
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by TomatoTomahto »

My life got better when I deleted my Facebook account. I highly recommend it. If you’re not ready to do it, suspend your account as a trial. I did that and restored my account twice before finally kissing it goodbye. Mark Zuckerberg makes me want to believe in an afterlife.

As far as Chris Hogan goes, I never heard of him before today, and I will have forgotten the name by tomorrow.
Okay, I get it; I won't be political or controversial. The Earth is flat.
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by bottlecap »

Don't know Hogan, but Ramsey has turned solid basic advice and his radio personality into a multi-million dollar fee-for-referral service.

He is not really interested in an idea if he can’t get that referral fee. I don’t hate the guy, but that’s the plain truth. That’s the "fee" a certain percentage of his listeners pay for listening to the program and buying his books.

Sounds like Hogan operates on the same principle.

JT
Mindbender
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Mindbender »

I’m in that group. Par for the course. I don’t comment on any investing related post with what I really think. I keep it for reading and motivation. Chris and Dave are all in for “mutual funds that beat the market.” Funny that no one asks “for how long?” :D
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

What’s the most you ever paid for a pair of jeans? :twisted:
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by welderwannabe »

Dave is not anti index fund. He frequently advises callers to invest in a no-load S&P 500 fund, but only in taxable.

He is, however, 100% anti-bond.

He is a get out of debt guy, and he is good at that. Any of his other advice take with a huge grain of salt.
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JoMoney
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by JoMoney »

I wonder if there's a Paul Merriman Facebook group, and if there was, if they'd allow a constant barrage of posts antithetical to his small-value stocks are best mantra.
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nedsaid
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by nedsaid »

BeachPerson wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:36 am
RobLyons wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:50 am I recently joined Chris Hogan's official Facebook finance group "Hogan's Everyday Millionaires" in which Chris Hogan posts himself often. There was a post yesterday in the group asking for personal opinions as how to start investing or how to optimize investing. User seemed overwhelmed/confused as to what path to take. I offered the Bogleheads strategy with a link to Taylor's infamous post about the Three-Fund portfolio here.

Well my post was removed and my comments were shut off with a note from the admins:

"Please do not advocate in this group for using index funds as the first option for investing. They only mirror the market and there are mutual funds.."
my screen shot ends there...


Interestingly enough I searched the spin off group "Everyday Millionaires" after the fact and noticed dozens of recent posts indicating many members are being banned from Hogan's group for offering any advice outside of the Ramsey and Hogan mantra of mutual funds and professionally managed accounts. These posts from the banned members appeared to be thoughtful, intuitive, and not outside the realm of normal water cooler chat. Many believe Hogan's admins do this for financial purposes but to me it seems a bit extreme to remove any discussion outside of regurgitating exactly what they preach.

Now, I'm not offended or hurt at all. I was a new member and was more curious than anything else in joining the page. Bogleheads is my go-to and has been for years.

So I guess what I'm wondering if anyone has seen this type of censorship anywhere else online in the finance or other sectors? Thanks!
Two years ago at church, since the pastor found 80% of people coming to him were about financial problems, he decided to have the entire church take the Dave Ramsey class. I did sit in on the class, but since Dave supports load funds, I refused to buy his material. Attendees in the class thought I was disobedient and bad financially.

Dave just does not get investing.
Yes, we had Dave Ramsey seminars offered at my church. I went to one session but declined to sign up. One reason was the naivete regarding investing, I was told that if I just invested in the right funds that I could get 12% return on my money. I had many years of investing experience under my belt at that time, and I knew that this was just too good to be true. I was wary of 100% stock portfolios then and I am today. I also thought that the radical "no debt" philosophy for businessmen was also flawed. His materials and advice were mostly good, there were weak spots though and my advice is that you have to separate the wheat from the chaff. Nothing is without flaws.
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by tibbitts »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:39 am What do you expect from a person who’s livelihood depends upon him not understanding or wanting to understand that the fastest way to millionaire status is to stop looking for the needle in the haystack but to own the entire haystack.
Well, a good percentage of Bogleheads believes the fastest way involves selecting the correct half or so of the haystack.
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Third Son »

mmmodem wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:42 am
RobLyons wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:19 am I used to watch his YouTube videos, and I enjoy general financial discussion. Also his baby steps are easy to follow, although I do not subscribe to following them in the exact order. It is interesting the point you make about Dave's audience being broke people knowing nothing bout money as these are the people he's making money off of. I find that troubling.
Really? Huge Dave Ramsey here. I find his financial advice completely free. His radio talk show is free. His books at the library are free. His budgeting app is free. If you call into his talk show, he often gives one his books or one of his classes to you for free. I don’t have issue with him charging low financial literacy people for additional handholding. Not a fan of Chris Hogan. He uses the word intentional too often.
Be intentional with your money.
That phrase has lost all meaning to me

I don’t use Facebook so I can’t comment on that but Bogleheads is by far the most censored forum I’ve ever visited. And guess what? It is by far the most visited forum by me. The mods must be doing something right.
Folks who visit this site are looking for solid financial advice without having to pay for the service. Jack Bogle realized decades ago that fees are counter intuitive to efficient returns. Those who heed Hogan /Ramsay's mantra either don't know or don't care. For my money, I'll stick with below average returns.
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guyinlaw
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by guyinlaw »

Feel free to share you views on his YouTube channel comments.

https://m.youtube.com/user/ChrisHogan360
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Brianmcg321 »

Oh good, a Ramsey bashing thread. How original.
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by lostdog »

tibbitts wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:29 am
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:39 am What do you expect from a person who’s livelihood depends upon him not understanding or wanting to understand that the fastest way to millionaire status is to stop looking for the needle in the haystack but to own the entire haystack.
Well, a good percentage of Bogleheads believes the fastest way involves selecting the correct half or so of the haystack.
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JoMoney
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by JoMoney »

tibbitts wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:29 am
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:39 am What do you expect from a person who’s livelihood depends upon him not understanding or wanting to understand that the fastest way to millionaire status is to stop looking for the needle in the haystack but to own the entire haystack.
Well, a good percentage of Bogleheads believes the fastest way involves selecting the correct half or so of the haystack.
Maybe even more narrow than 'half the haystack' by weight, Small-cap stocks only make up about 10%-15% of the market, "small value" less than half of that...
Yet despite the performance of actual funds trying to capture the "small value premium", this forum is full of advocates for that, and defenders of Paul Merriman's articles suggesting you can get 12% annualized (or more) by following that strategy...
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by mmmodem »

Third Son wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:32 am Folks who visit this site are looking for solid financial advice without having to pay for the service. Jack Bogle realized decades ago that fees are counter intuitive to efficient returns. Those who heed Hogan /Ramsay's mantra either don't know or don't care. For my money, I'll stick with below average returns.
Agree with the former. Disagree with the latter. I find their advice completely compatible with Bogleheads. Which is stay the course, get company match, use Roth IRA, etc. More specific fund investing diverges a bit but so do Bogleheads with 3 fund portfolio, slice and dice, international or no international, pay off mortgage or invest, 60/40 or 80/20, and so on. In some cases, Bogleheads recommend a financial advisor and I would hope these FA earn some money off these people for the provided service.
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Ivygirl »

There is a substantial percentage of people who suffer when subjected to controversy. Sometimes they have been wounded by being the softest person in the room for many years. Sometimes they are not very smart and know it, and every honest question they have asked has been shot down as dumb by somebody quicker. Sometimes they have anxiety, or depression, or have been poor a long time, or have been unloved, or have been cast aside for something better.

Sometimes they have made financial mistakes and hurt themselves and other people. They've let down their families. Their own way caused nothing but trouble. Now they want to be different.

Mr. Hogan and Mr. Ramsey go after the lost sheep. Every single person is worthy, no one is doomed to financial failure.

There is a toxic snobbery about money sometimes that is really a toxic snobbery against those who aren't "winners." Like we are all in boarding school somewhere and need the right clothes. Can you blame people for wanting a place to go where they can do their financial work without somebody's ego exulting over them?

Sometimes the dearest wish of one's heart is to go somewhere where the people are all nice, the rules are all known, everyone supports and cheers each other in a common endeavor, and a strong authority figure keeps the marauders out.
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Third Son »

mmmodem wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:58 am
Third Son wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:32 am Folks who visit this site are looking for solid financial advice without having to pay for the service. Jack Bogle realized decades ago that fees are counter intuitive to efficient returns. Those who heed Hogan /Ramsay's mantra either don't know or don't care. For my money, I'll stick with below average returns.
Agree with the former. Disagree with the latter. I find their advice completely compatible with Bogleheads. Which is stay the course, get company match, use Roth IRA, etc. More specific fund investing diverges a bit but so do Bogleheads with 3 fund portfolio, slice and dice, international or no international, pay off mortgage or invest, 60/40 or 80/20, and so on. In some cases, Bogleheads recommend a financial advisor and I would hope these FA earn some money off these people for the provided service.
So you agree with front end loads and paying several thousand dollars in fees for something that can cost you relatively little? I think most financial advisors are merely hand holders in times of crisis. Sure their job is to earn some money off these people but for what service? I have had a FA previously. Didn't see the value and moved on. Now a two funder in retirement and find it suits me just fine.
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JoMoney
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by JoMoney »

Ivygirl wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:03 am...
Sometimes the dearest wish of one's heart is to go somewhere where the people are all nice, the rules are all known, everyone supports and cheers each other in a common endeavor, and a strong authority figure keeps the marauders out.
Conversely, the world also has people with a disdain for unbendable 'rules' and 'strong authority figures' especially if the rule is viewed as false or unjust... and some who like to be on the edge of the boundary, testing the limits of what 'rules' are hard and which are soft.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

tibbitts wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:29 am
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:39 am What do you expect from a person who’s livelihood depends upon him not understanding or wanting to understand that the fastest way to millionaire status is to stop looking for the needle in the haystack but to own the entire haystack.
Well, a good percentage of Bogleheads believes the fastest way involves selecting the correct half or so of the haystack.
Which half is that? Value and Small? :wink:

I do hold some small but that would be in line with holding Aggressive Growth. Value is closely related to a Growth and Income fund like the S&P 500. But I also hold International too. I just avoid paying loads that cut the annual returns of 12 percent down to 7 percent. If the funds earn 12 percent but you are paying a load, automatically you aren’t earning 12 percent. To make matters worse, most including myself are not lump summing in on January 1, so if you are investing in April and the fund earned 10 percent in months January through March but only 1 percent in the subsequent remainder of the year, your return is negative. Are they talking about that? I hear Dave Ramsey say it on his show but not so sure people understand it.

I get what Dave Ramsey is doing, he DOES help a lot of people and he’s NOT sticking a gun to anyone’s head saying you must use his ELP or else. Most will consult with one because they will take anyone versus places that have ridiculous minimums or may really take advantage of them. We can all make decisions about what is best for us. I don’t agree with charging 5 percent but 5 percent may not be bad for someone who’s used to paying usurious rates of interest for car loans, payday loans, leases, etc. At least initially but if you do it for too long you’ll find you only have 1/3 of what you could have had if you had paid less in fees.
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Ivygirl
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Ivygirl »

JoMoney wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:20 am
Ivygirl wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:03 am...
Sometimes the dearest wish of one's heart is to go somewhere where the people are all nice, the rules are all known, everyone supports and cheers each other in a common endeavor, and a strong authority figure keeps the marauders out.
Conversely, the world also has people with a disdain for unbendable 'rules' and 'strong authority figures' especially if the rule is viewed as false or unjust... and some who like to be on the edge of the boundary, testing the limits of what 'rules' are hard and which are soft.
This is your own preference, and what suits your own temperament. Your kind of person is needed, but only in very small quantities. More than a few of you is destructive. Do you accept this?
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CyclingDuo
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by CyclingDuo »

RobLyons wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:50 amI recently joined Chris Hogan's official Facebook finance group "Hogan's Everyday Millionaires" in which Chris Hogan posts himself often. There was a post yesterday in the group asking for personal opinions as how to start investing or how to optimize investing. User seemed overwhelmed/confused as to what path to take. I offered the Bogleheads strategy with a link to Taylor's infamous post about the Three-Fund portfolio here.

Well my post was removed and my comments were shut off with a note from the admins:
If it makes you feel any better, I've been silenced more than once with the standard two week ban on commenting. :beer

I'd be banned again if I commented on this current thread from 2 days ago...

Chris Hogan says:

We don't recommend index funds (which is what Vanguard specializes in) as the first option for investing. All they do is mirror what the market is doing and there are many mutual funds that consistently beat the market. We want you to get the best return for your money and you're leaving funds on the table by using them first.

Once you have maxxed out all your Roth/IRA options, then they're OK to use.

You should be able to easily roll your funds over to Roth IRA with a mutual fund company and put them into the 4 categories that we recommend.


Or later in the thread he says...

We don't recommend VTSAX for retirement investing. We only recommend index funds for saving for a goal such as the down payment on a home or if all your other retirement options are maxxed out and you still need to invest money somewhere to make up the 15% household income investing that we recommend.

And then a few posts later when asked about which funds he would recommend, he says...

We are not licensed investing professionals so by law we aren't allowed to recommend specific funds. Dave and I are both very well educated when it comes to investing but we both use professionals to help guide us with that area of our finances because it's their job to know what funds are performing well and which ones should be replaced in our portfolios due to poor performance. We don't build our own homes or perform dental work on ourselves either. Some things are best left to the professionals.

It is what it is.

I love when an everyday millionaire appears on the Ramsey/Hogan millionaire hour and when they ask them how they did it, and you hear a response such as "I'm DIY and invested in index funds" or "I only invested in my company stock" - I love to see the reaction from Dave and Chris as they quickly move on to the next question. :beer

Regardless, we all know there are many roads to accumulating wealth. Pitting one group's philosophy against another leads to threads like these. Index funds, mutual funds with load fees and or high ER fees, active vs. passive, individual stocks and bonds, preferred stocks, MLP's, CEF's, dividends, annuities, AUM vs. DIY, etc... will never stop being the subjects of much discussion - which is a good thing.

Enlightenment is good and is actionable when it comes to one's investment portfolio.
"Save like a pessimist, invest like an optimist." - Morgan Housel
jibantik
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by jibantik »

Housedoc wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:11 am Hogan is a bag of hot air, his advice has been poor but he entertains the media shows that have him on.
+1. Anytime I hear this guy talk it amazes me how someone can offer virtually no substantial concrete advice on ANY situation.

Anyway, no idea why the OP is surprised by this. Ramsey (and thus Hogan) is in the business of getting people out of debt to scam their investments. They make money off those "high performing" funds that return "12%" so the fees don't really matter, not low-cost index funds.

Bit of an aside, but it absolutely blows my mind that Ramsey can be so successful when he literally does not even understand the different between a roth and traditional ira.
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by tibbitts »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:22 am Which half is that? Value and Small? :wink:
Honestly if I was commenting few years ago I might have been thinking exactly that!
yules
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by yules »

RobLyons wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:50 am I recently joined Chris Hogan's official Facebook finance group "Hogan's Everyday Millionaires" in which Chris Hogan posts himself often. There was a post yesterday in the group asking for personal opinions as how to start investing or how to optimize investing. User seemed overwhelmed/confused as to what path to take. I offered the Bogleheads strategy with a link to Taylor's infamous post about the Three-Fund portfolio here.

Well my post was removed and my comments were shut off with a note from the admins:

"Please do not advocate in this group for using index funds as the first option for investing. They only mirror the market and there are mutual funds.."
my screen shot ends there...


Interestingly enough I searched the spin off group "Everyday Millionaires" after the fact and noticed dozens of recent posts indicating many members are being banned from Hogan's group for offering any advice outside of the Ramsey and Hogan mantra of mutual funds and professionally managed accounts. These posts from the banned members appeared to be thoughtful, intuitive, and not outside the realm of normal water cooler chat. Many believe Hogan's admins do this for financial purposes but to me it seems a bit extreme to remove any discussion outside of regurgitating exactly what they preach.

Now, I'm not offended or hurt at all. I was a new member and was more curious than anything else in joining the page. Bogleheads is my go-to and has been for years.

So I guess what I'm wondering if anyone has seen this type of censorship anywhere else online in the finance or other sectors? Thanks!
Not much different than if you were to try to call into his radio show, he has a phone screener who will get to decide who gets on air with Chris Hogan.

Chris Hogan trying to make “focuses but not finished” a catchphrase is sad!
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JoeRetire
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by JoeRetire »

RobLyons wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 7:14 am
JoeRetire wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 6:33 am
RobLyons wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 5:50 amSo I guess what I'm wondering if anyone has seen this type of censorship anywhere else online in the finance or other sectors? Thanks!
That's pretty typical of Facebook Groups. The Admin and Moderators can do anything they choose to guide the conversations.

I've joined over 150 fb groups over the past 10 years and never found a group this restrictive. I'd say it's atypical, especially considering the post was asking for personal opinions.
I have seen plenty of Facebook groups this restrictive and I help moderate one. Apparently we travel in different Facebook circles.

You seem surprised at the reaction to your post in that group. I'm not surprised at all.
Last edited by JoeRetire on Sun Sep 20, 2020 10:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by JoMoney »

Ivygirl wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:36 am
JoMoney wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:20 am
Ivygirl wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:03 am...
Sometimes the dearest wish of one's heart is to go somewhere where the people are all nice, the rules are all known, everyone supports and cheers each other in a common endeavor, and a strong authority figure keeps the marauders out.
Conversely, the world also has people with a disdain for unbendable 'rules' and 'strong authority figures' especially if the rule is viewed as false or unjust... and some who like to be on the edge of the boundary, testing the limits of what 'rules' are hard and which are soft.
This is your own preference, and what suits your own temperament. Your kind of person is needed, but only in very small quantities. More than a few of you is destructive. Do you accept this?
It's "destructive" from the perspective of a 'temperament' that resists change, some view change as constructive and a necessity for growth (rather than decay).
Nothing can be built without adding on to some foundational structure, but change is the only constant, it takes all types to figure out which 'rules' are foundational support and which might better off broken down.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham
yules
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by yules »

tibbitts wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 8:29 am
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: Sat Sep 19, 2020 7:39 am What do you expect from a person who’s livelihood depends upon him not understanding or wanting to understand that the fastest way to millionaire status is to stop looking for the needle in the haystack but to own the entire haystack.
Well, a good percentage of Bogleheads believes the fastest way involves selecting the correct half or so of the haystack.
You mean everyone who claims that no one knows anything and to embrace assign management....then says to invest in US only part of the haystack, and stay away from international, right?
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by IowaFarmWife »

Ivygirl wrote: Sun Sep 20, 2020 9:03 am There is a substantial percentage of people who suffer when subjected to controversy. Sometimes they have been wounded by being the softest person in the room for many years. Sometimes they are not very smart and know it, and every honest question they have asked has been shot down as dumb by somebody quicker. Sometimes they have anxiety, or depression, or have been poor a long time, or have been unloved, or have been cast aside for something better.

Sometimes they have made financial mistakes and hurt themselves and other people. They've let down their families. Their own way caused nothing but trouble. Now they want to be different.

Mr. Hogan and Mr. Ramsey go after the lost sheep. Every single person is worthy, no one is doomed to financial failure.

There is a toxic snobbery about money sometimes that is really a toxic snobbery against those who aren't "winners." Like we are all in boarding school somewhere and need the right clothes. Can you blame people for wanting a place to go where they can do their financial work without somebody's ego exulting over them?

Sometimes the dearest wish of one's heart is to go somewhere where the people are all nice, the rules are all known, everyone supports and cheers each other in a common endeavor, and a strong authority figure keeps the marauders out.
Ivy girl, I think you are spot on about the "toxic snobbery" regarding those who are not "winners." Although I have not/do not follow Dave Ramsey to the letter, his advice really got my finances rolling in the right direction 10-12 years ago when I had a ton of debt, very little savings, and NO IDEA where to even begin tackling all of my financial issues. I read his "Total Money Makeover" and began his baby steps. Ten years later, I am no longer following his program, but I have very little debt, more savings than I thought I would ever have, and the confidence to invest in the market (thank you fellow Bogelheads for this).

On a completely different note, I need to tell you that your posts are very thought provoking and compassionate. I still remember the post you wrote several months ago about many of us knowing that there is a better life out there, but having no idea as how to get there. I believe the analogy you used was that we could hear the people on the upper floor walking around, but having no idea how to even find the staircase? That really resonated well with me. You have a great writing style, and I think you should/could start your own blog about women and personal finance and maybe mentoring other women in financial matters. Yes, I'm being totally serious here, too. :)
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Re: Chris Hogan's Facebook Group restrictions

Post by Helo80 »

All this chatter is nice, but say Ramsey solutions shuts down and the entire empire he has is over. Would you prefer people go back to their old habits?

It seems like a lot of his listening audience don't know how to make sense of basic financial matters that are basic life skills any functional adult should have. It's easy for us to snipe from Ivory Towers, but the BH audience has above average knowledge on basic budgeting/finance/investing.
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