AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
Post Reply
Topic Author
Aw0k3n
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 10:05 am

AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by Aw0k3n » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:35 pm

I think there should not be any issue with market weighted index ETF like ITOT or VTI but I dont know if a split of this magnitude will have any unintended consequences?
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/07/30/apple-j ... stors.html
Tat tvam asi (thou art that)

000
Posts: 798
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:04 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by 000 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:37 pm

Only thing I could think of is AAPL could become more accessible -- think options contracts of 100 shares -- and thus more volatile.
Last edited by 000 on Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Topic Author
Aw0k3n
Posts: 34
Joined: Wed May 09, 2018 10:05 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by Aw0k3n » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:38 pm

000 wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:37 pm
Only think I could think of is AAPL could become more accessible -- think options contracts of 100 shares -- and thus more volatile.
excellent point! so this might translate into higher volatility for an already volatile ETF like QQQ compared to VTI. But for total stock market, it would be dampened noise?
Tat tvam asi (thou art that)

000
Posts: 798
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:04 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by 000 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:40 pm

Aw0k3n wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:38 pm
000 wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 4:37 pm
Only think I could think of is AAPL could become more accessible -- think options contracts of 100 shares -- and thus more volatile.
excellent point! so this might translate into higher volatility for an already volatile ETF like QQQ compared to VTI. But for total stock market, it would be dampened noise?
Possibly. Personally I think the effect will probably be minimal both for QQQ and VTI.

Impatience
Posts: 63
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 3:15 pm

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by Impatience » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:57 pm

It won’t affect anything, excepting the comment about options being more accessible - maybe that will help drive up IVs a bit? Not too familiar with that area. Otherwise, stock splits are purely cosmetic, especially in these days of fractional share trading. All it means is the big number is now smaller.

User avatar
indexfundfan
Posts: 3010
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:21 am
Contact:

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by indexfundfan » Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:58 pm

AAPL's weighting in the DJIA would be reduced though.
My signature has been deleted.

02nz
Posts: 5420
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by 02nz » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:05 pm

indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:58 pm
AAPL's weighting in the DJIA would be reduced though.
Which is a good example of why the DJIA is a meaningless index.

User avatar
nisiprius
Advisory Board
Posts: 41367
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:33 am
Location: The terrestrial, globular, planetary hunk of matter, flattened at the poles, is my abode.--O. Henry

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by nisiprius » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:06 pm

Just to be perfectly clear, the Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Funds and other index funds that hold AAPL do not need to do anything--if you thought they were suddenly going to all buy or sell AAPL at the same time, they won't.

If Total Stock holds, let's say (I am not looking up real numbers) 100 million shares of AAPL at $400/share for a total of $40,000 million worth, it won't buy or sell anything. After the split it will hold 400 million shares. If the stock market acts rationally the price per share will drop to $100/shares and Total Stock will still hold $40,000 million. If, for whatever irrational reason, the market decides the split has made Apple stock more or less attractive, so that instead of $100 a share the price becomes $101/share or $99/share, then Total Stock will hold $40,400 or $39,600 worth. The Apple holdings in Total Stock will gain or lose 1%. And since Apple represents about 5% of the total value of Total Stock, Total Stock will gain or lose 1% of 5% = 0.05%.

In other words... any effect on Total Stock that can be attributed to the split will be negligible. It will be a nonevent.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

User avatar
nisiprius
Advisory Board
Posts: 41367
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:33 am
Location: The terrestrial, globular, planetary hunk of matter, flattened at the poles, is my abode.--O. Henry

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by nisiprius » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:10 pm

I hadn't thought about this before, but brokers are starting to offer fractional shares, and to the extent that they do, splits will become even less important. Anyone who wants $100 worth of Apple stock can buy 1/4 of a share today from Schwab or Fidelity, they don't need to wait for the split.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

000
Posts: 798
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:04 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by 000 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:13 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:10 pm
I hadn't thought about this before, but brokers are starting to offer fractional shares, and to the extent that they do, splits will become even less important. Anyone who wants $100 worth of Apple stock can buy 1/4 of a share today from Schwab or Fidelity, they don't need to wait for the split.
Still important because of the spread on fractional shares.

User avatar
indexfundfan
Posts: 3010
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 11:21 am
Contact:

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by indexfundfan » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:14 pm

02nz wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:05 pm
indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:58 pm
AAPL's weighting in the DJIA would be reduced though.
Which is a good example of why the DJIA is a meaningless index.
Yes. Funds indexed to the DJIA would have to liquidate about 75% of their AAPL shares.
My signature has been deleted.

Normchad
Posts: 855
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by Normchad » Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:19 pm

indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:14 pm
02nz wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:05 pm
indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:58 pm
AAPL's weighting in the DJIA would be reduced though.
Which is a good example of why the DJIA is a meaningless index.
Yes. Funds indexed to the DJIA would have to liquidate about 75% of their AAPL shares.
Stocks split all the time; does this really affect the DJIA? Wouldn’t they adjust their DJIA fudge factory, which they seem to tweak frequently anyway?

02nz
Posts: 5420
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:17 pm

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by 02nz » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:05 pm

Normchad wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:19 pm
indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:14 pm
02nz wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:05 pm
indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:58 pm
AAPL's weighting in the DJIA would be reduced though.
Which is a good example of why the DJIA is a meaningless index.
Yes. Funds indexed to the DJIA would have to liquidate about 75% of their AAPL shares.
Stocks split all the time; does this really affect the DJIA? Wouldn’t they adjust their DJIA fudge factory, which they seem to tweak frequently anyway?
The divisor is adjusted to account for the change in stock price. But the dividend (the number being divided) is still just made up of all the component companies' share prices added together. And that means Apple will only count for 1/4 as much in the DJIA after the split as it did before. Which makes no more sense than UnitedHealth (the next largest Dow component) counting about 3x as much in the DJIA as JP Morgan Chase, even though the latter has a larger market capitalization.

mortfree
Posts: 2361
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:06 pm

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by mortfree » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:13 pm

Love me some apple stock.

I was looking for another 7:1 split but they just decided to do the 4:1.

Normchad
Posts: 855
Joined: Thu Mar 03, 2011 7:20 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by Normchad » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:16 pm

02nz wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:05 pm
Normchad wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:19 pm
indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:14 pm
02nz wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:05 pm
indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:58 pm
AAPL's weighting in the DJIA would be reduced though.
Which is a good example of why the DJIA is a meaningless index.
Yes. Funds indexed to the DJIA would have to liquidate about 75% of their AAPL shares.
Stocks split all the time; does this really affect the DJIA? Wouldn’t they adjust their DJIA fudge factory, which they seem to tweak frequently anyway?
The divisor is adjusted to account for the change in stock price. But the dividend (the number being divided) is still just made up of all the component companies' share prices added together. And that means Apple will only count for 1/4 as much in the DJIA after the split as it did before. Which makes no more sense than UnitedHealth (the next largest Dow component) counting about 3x as much in the DJIA as JP Morgan Chase, even though the latter has a larger market capitalization.
Gotcha. So we won't see a big change in the DJIA price per se, but the amount of influence/weight Apple has on it will be quartered. Thanks for the informative explanation!

User avatar
nisiprius
Advisory Board
Posts: 41367
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:33 am
Location: The terrestrial, globular, planetary hunk of matter, flattened at the poles, is my abode.--O. Henry

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by nisiprius » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:32 pm

indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:14 pm
02nz wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:05 pm
indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:58 pm
AAPL's weighting in the DJIA would be reduced though.
Which is a good example of why the DJIA is a meaningless index.
Yes. Funds indexed to the DJIA would have to liquidate about 75% of their AAPL shares.
I think you mean "the" fund, because as far as I know the only one that is actually indexed to the DJIA is the SPDR® Dow Jones® Industrial Average ETF Trust, DIA. (It's a little hard to be sure because online fund and ETF guides are unreliable! For example, at least one article claims that IYY tracks the Dow Jones Industrial Average, when in fact it tracks the Dow Jones US Index, a cap-weighted broad market index of 1300 stocks!).

DIA does have $22 billion in assets under management and Apple accounts for 9.69% of that, so it will need to sell something like $1.5 billion in AAPL, but since AAPL has a total market cap of $1,670 billion, that is about 0.1% of all the AAPL stock outstanding. I don't know if that would move the market very much.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

quadog
Posts: 30
Joined: Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:25 pm

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by quadog » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:43 pm

I wonder if this alters the dividend amount per share? Or does that just get quartered as well?

User avatar
FIREchief
Posts: 4923
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2016 6:40 pm

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by FIREchief » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:45 pm

02nz wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:05 pm
indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:58 pm
AAPL's weighting in the DJIA would be reduced though.
Which is a good example of why the DJIA is a meaningless index.
Is it even an "index?" :confused
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.

000
Posts: 798
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:04 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by 000 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:51 pm

FIREchief wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:45 pm
02nz wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:05 pm
indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:58 pm
AAPL's weighting in the DJIA would be reduced though.
Which is a good example of why the DJIA is a meaningless index.
Is it even an "index?" :confused
:mrgreen: It only claims to be an average

User avatar
arcticpineapplecorp.
Posts: 5586
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:22 pm

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:51 pm

Ken Thompson stopped in at Dick McDaniels’ Pizza Palace the other night and ordered a pizza. When it was ready, Dick asked Ken if he wanted it cut in six or eight pieces.

Ken thought a while, and then said, “Better make it six pieces. I could never eat eight.”—Weyauwega (Wis.) Chronicle.

source: https://quoteinvestigator.com/2014/07/22/pizza/
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

User avatar
nisiprius
Advisory Board
Posts: 41367
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:33 am
Location: The terrestrial, globular, planetary hunk of matter, flattened at the poles, is my abode.--O. Henry

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by nisiprius » Thu Jul 30, 2020 8:30 pm

FIREchief wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:45 pm
02nz wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:05 pm
indexfundfan wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:58 pm
AAPL's weighting in the DJIA would be reduced though.
Which is a good example of why the DJIA is a meaningless index.
Is it even an "index?" :confused
No, it is not. It is an "average," not an "index."

The word "index" was coined, or at least popularized by economist Irving Fisher in a 1922 book entitled The Making Of Index Numbers: A Study Of Their Varieties, Tests, And Reliability. He introduced the concept of cap-weighting, and until fairly recently "index" was understood to mean "cap-weighted index." The 1938 Cowles Commission book, 500+ pages, Common-Stock Indexes, 1871-1937 used cap-weighted indexes (and is the source of all the data you see "back to 1871.")

There's justification for the continued calculation of the DJIA, just as there's justification for the Blue Hills Weather Observatory to continue using barometers with mercury in tubes and recording pressure in inches of mercury: continuity of long-term records.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

alex_686
Posts: 6508
Joined: Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:39 pm

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by alex_686 » Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:42 pm

The DJIA is a index.

And it is a great index. You can calculate it with just the closing price, a piece of paper, and a pencil.

With the S&P 500 you have to know the free float shares, which is a relatively recent piece of knowledge. You need a computer like a Univac.
Former brokerage operations & mutual fund accountant. I hate risk, which is why I study and embrace it.

User avatar
Nicolas
Posts: 2014
Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2012 7:41 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by Nicolas » Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:11 pm

quadog wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:43 pm
I wonder if this alters the dividend amount per share? Or does that just get quartered as well?
Yes the dividend paid out per share will be quartered. If it wasn’t then your dividend would be quadrupled! You will get the same total $ in dividends from your investment as you got before the split.
When found, make a note of. — Captain Cuttle

CurlyDave
Posts: 1828
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 11:37 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by CurlyDave » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:16 am

In my entire life, I have never been hurt by a stock split, and I am an old geezer.

It has always turned out that my holdings increased in value. I know all the arguments about dividing the same thing into smaller or bigger pieces, but in the real world those smaller pieces are worth just a little bit more.

User avatar
Stinky
Posts: 4789
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 11:38 am
Location: Sweet Home Alabama

Apple’s impact on Dow Jones average will decline after stock split

Post by Stinky » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:11 am

It appears that Apple’s stock split will impact the importance of Apple stock to the DJIA. From the largest component to 15th or so out of 30 stocks.

IMHO, just one more reason to follow a market cap weighted index rather than a price-weighted one.

https://on.mktw.net/2D7s0zc
Last edited by Stinky on Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's a GREAT day to be alive - Travis Tritt

User avatar
abuss368
Posts: 20412
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: Where the water is warm, the drinks are cold, and I don't know the names of the players!
Contact:

Re: Apple’s impact on Dow Jones average will decline after stock split

Post by abuss368 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:13 am

That is interesting and thanks for sharing. CNBC is discussing now.
John C. Bogle: Two Fund Portfolio - Total Stock & Total Bond - “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."

Outer Marker
Posts: 737
Joined: Sun Mar 08, 2009 8:01 am

Re: Apple’s impact on Dow Jones average will decline after stock split

Post by Outer Marker » Fri Jul 31, 2020 10:40 am

That is crazy. Why would anyone pay attention to the Dow? I did not know that. Glad I'm indexed in the S&P 500.

yog
Posts: 68
Joined: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:57 pm

Re: Apple’s impact on Dow Jones average will decline after stock split

Post by yog » Fri Jul 31, 2020 11:01 am

SO, my 'hedge fund' may soon be open, but only for 'accredited' investors. Its benchmark is the DJIA. Objective is to be 90% invested in equities, though from time to time it may have a substantial portion of its holdings in cash, T-Bills, or equivalent. It may be more volatile, but it has substantially outperformed its benchmark in every 7y, 10y, 15y, & lifetime periods. Lifetime performance of the fund is 29.08% CAGR vs 7.28% CAGR for the benchmark.

Current top 5 positions:
AAPL (90%)
CASH (to buy more AAPL) (10%)

Standard 2 & 20 applies. Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.
Portfolio Visualizer Historical Returns since 1999
:mrgreen:
[/joking, I think]

Flyer24
Moderator
Posts: 1820
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2018 4:21 pm

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by Flyer24 » Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:34 pm

I have merged threads related to AAPL split.

anoop
Posts: 1508
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 1:33 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by anoop » Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:36 pm

It has taken < 2 years for Apple to add $1T in market cap!

At this pace, Apple could be a $10T company by the time the economy "recovers".

All aboard the AAPL train...
Last edited by anoop on Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

renegade06
Posts: 264
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2019 3:00 pm

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by renegade06 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:57 pm

Everything I’d read said that there is no advantage to buying Apple stock before the 4:1 split... what say the group?

000
Posts: 798
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:04 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by 000 » Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:32 pm

renegade06 wrote:
Mon Aug 03, 2020 6:57 pm
Everything I’d read said that there is no advantage to buying Apple stock before the 4:1 split... what say the group?
Only possibility is that lower share price gets more interest from small investors. I think the decision depends on: do you think those investors can move the market?

CycloRista
Posts: 135
Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2020 11:53 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by CycloRista » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:05 am

mortfree wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:13 pm
Love me some apple stock.

I was looking for another 7:1 split but they just decided to do the 4:1.
Yes- the 7:1 split made AAPL more accessible to others and the stock price rose steadily afterward. Hopefully even @4:1 the effect will also be positive.

atdharris
Posts: 473
Joined: Wed Jan 02, 2019 3:18 pm

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by atdharris » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:28 am

I don't think it changes anything, but it will likely make the stock more volatile and I bet it keeps going up. In the past, Apple tended to increase substantially post-split.

User avatar
cos
Posts: 148
Joined: Fri Aug 23, 2019 7:34 pm
Location: Boston
Contact:

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by cos » Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:32 am

nisiprius wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:32 pm
I think you mean "the" fund, because as far as I know the only one that is actually indexed to the DJIA is the SPDR® Dow Jones® Industrial Average ETF Trust, DIA. (It's a little hard to be sure because online fund and ETF guides are unreliable! For example, at least one article claims that IYY tracks the Dow Jones Industrial Average, when in fact it tracks the Dow Jones US Index, a cap-weighted broad market index of 1300 stocks!).
For the sake of information, there are also SDOW, DXD, DOG, DDM, and UDOW which track -3x, -2x, -1x, 2x, and 3x the returns of the DJIA respectively.

mortfree
Posts: 2361
Joined: Mon Sep 12, 2016 7:06 pm

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by mortfree » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:28 pm

CycloRista wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:05 am
mortfree wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:13 pm
Love me some apple stock.

I was looking for another 7:1 split but they just decided to do the 4:1.
Yes- the 7:1 split made AAPL more accessible to others and the stock price rose steadily afterward. Hopefully even @4:1 the effect will also be positive.
Maybe they’ll change it to 5:1.

$100 or less would be mentally acceptable otherwise it might even be 125 or so at 4:1

It’s run up $80-ish since recent low on July 24.

000
Posts: 798
Joined: Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:04 am

Re: AAPL announced 4-for-1 stock split - effect on TSM?

Post by 000 » Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:38 pm

mortfree wrote:
Thu Aug 06, 2020 1:28 pm
CycloRista wrote:
Tue Aug 04, 2020 10:05 am
mortfree wrote:
Thu Jul 30, 2020 7:13 pm
Love me some apple stock.

I was looking for another 7:1 split but they just decided to do the 4:1.
Yes- the 7:1 split made AAPL more accessible to others and the stock price rose steadily afterward. Hopefully even @4:1 the effect will also be positive.
Maybe they’ll change it to 5:1.

$100 or less would be mentally acceptable otherwise it might even be 125 or so at 4:1

It’s run up $80-ish since recent low on July 24.
The lower the share price, the worse the spread.

Post Reply