2 and 3 fund funders - sticking soley with Total Bond?

[Cody]

I'm looking for feedback on the 2 and 3 funders who as sticking soley with Vanguards Total Bond.

Have you decided "recently" just to stick with Total Bond? Or hav you made some changes recently?

[1789]

I think it is a great fund and the greatest bond fund on earth. Why would anyone change that? For performance/yield chasing?

[Triple digit golfer]

Always just Total Bond. No plans to change. Why do you ask?

[Jefferson]

I’ve got Total Bond as part of my target date fund in my 401k.

I’ve got VSIGX (intermediate Treasuries) in taxable. Slight tax advantage and leaving the risk to the equity side.

[annu]

I did add VGLT(long term treasuries) and also got some GNMA fund today, but still main holding BND

[lazynovice]

I will use a Total Bond (in my case Fidelity) until I have no more room in our 401(k)s. Once I need bonds in taxable, I will need to make a decision between using tax-exempt bond funds or total bond. My IPS says “own the whole market” and tax-exempt bond funds violate that. On other hand, my IPS says to invest tax efficiently and Total Bond in taxable violates that given my tax bracket.

[gr7070]

I'll very likely transition into some TIPS as I approach retirement (retirement in about 7 years), but yes. I am quite confident I'll always have some Total Bond, and very likely it will be the predominant portion of my fixed income.

There's a possibility I'll look to be more conservative with my fixed income than Total Bond and TIPS. Regardless of how I go, I am absolutely certain one would not be wrong including Total Bond within their fixed income, even 100% of it.

Whether it's the best option I don't think any of us can say. A reasonable option I don't think anyone can argue against.

[jason2459]

I will use a Total Bond (in my case Fidelity) until I have no more room in our 401(k)s. Once I need bonds in taxable, I will need to make a decision between using tax-exempt bond funds or total bond. My IPS says “own the whole market” and tax-exempt bond funds violate that. On other hand, my IPS says to invest tax efficiently and Total Bond in taxable violates that given my tax bracket.

You would hold a more complete market by adding tax exempt munis. Total bond does not hold those. It also does not hold TIPs, I or e bonds, or tbills.

[lazynovice]

I will use a Total Bond (in my case Fidelity) until I have no more room in our 401(k)s. Once I need bonds in taxable, I will need to make a decision between using tax-exempt bond funds or total bond. My IPS says “own the whole market” and tax-exempt bond funds violate that. On other hand, my IPS says to invest tax efficiently and Total Bond in taxable violates that given my tax bracket.

You would hold a more complete market by adding tax exempt munis. Total bond does not hold those. It also does not hold TIPs, I or e bonds, or tbills.

Learn something new every day. Thank you.

[Taylor Larimore]

I'm looking for feedback on the 2 and 3 funders who as sticking soley with Vanguards Total Bond.

Have you decided "recently" just to stick with Total Bond? Or have you made some changes recently?

Cody:

Pat and I moved all our investments from Merrill Lynch to Vanguard in 1986. Vanguard Total Bond Market was one of our first purchases and is now my only bond fund (Pat died in 2013).

TBM with its low-cost and broad diversification (a "free-lunch") has served us very well in bear markets (when bonds are needed) and I would not think of changing. Other investors must feel the same because it is now the largest bond fund in the world.

Note: There are situations with high-income investors where using a tax-exempt bond fund may be better.

Best wishes
Taylor

Jack Bogle's Words of Wisdom: "The Vanguard Total Stock Market Index fund and its Total Bond Market cousin represent the purest form of common-sense investing."

[oldcomputerguy]

DW and I are both retired, we have everything except for our taxable account at Fidelity. We're holding FXNAX (Fidelity's total bond index fund) there. The only exception is that I have about three years' worth of expense draw in FUMBX (short-term Treasury index fund) as a liability-matching move (cash-equivalent to bridge the gap from now until Social Security). I have no plans to change, nor do I see a reason.

[dbr]

Always just Total Bond. No plans to change. Why do you ask?

I agree -- why do you ask?

Look, there are plenty of different choices in bonds that all serve the purpose of what a "three fund portfolio" is trying to do. You could even hold bonds in more than one type of fixed income investment and the same purpose is served.

But if a person wants to take Total Bond as "THE" answer I would not dispute it.

Disclaimer: I hold something different from Total Bond for my fixed income allocation and would still claim to represent a "Three Fund" investor, but if someone insists the fund count has to be three and that Total Bond has to be the bond fund, then I am not a three fund investor. I couldn't care less.

[eye.surgeon]

I would assume he's asking because of all the posts lately about how bonds are a terrible thing to own right now and that total bond fund is inferior to treasuries, gold, etc etc. I own total bond fun in my 401k based on Vanguard's target fund holding for my retirement age, which at the moment is about 21% and I'm 51 planning to retire in 15 years. No plans to deviate from Total Bond.

I do own $50k in Vanguard's California tax free munis in taxable which acts as my EF but I also count as part of my bond holdings. I'm in the highest tax rate in California which makes some sense of it.

[Ferdinand2014]

DW and I are both retired, we have everything except for our taxable account at Fidelity. We're holding FXNAX (Fidelity's total bond index fund) there. The only exception is that I have about three years' worth of expense draw in FUMBX (short-term Treasury index fund) as a liability-matching move (cash-equivalent to bridge the gap from now until Social Security). I have no plans to change, nor do I see a reason.

I had all my ‘bond’ holdings in treasury bills at auction on auto roll at Fidelity up until SARS-CoV-2 hit. Hiccups in the market kicked me out of auto roll for a brief time, so I just bought FUMBX instead. Great low cost short treasury fund. It is my only fixed income.

[ClevrChico]

I'm a total bond fan. It's simple, and I don't have to think about it.

[Dave55]

I have Total Bond, Short Term Investment Grade, and Ginnie Mae.


Dave

[CFM300]

Since 1987...

60% - Total US Stock Market
40% - Intermediate-term Treasuries

has done as well or better than...

60% - Total US Stock Market
40% - Total US Bond Market

Better CAGR, lower max drawdown, lower worst year, lower SD, etc. Something to consider.

Portfolio Visualizer

[Third Son]

DW and I are both retired, we have everything except for our taxable account at Fidelity. We're holding FXNAX (Fidelity's total bond index fund) there. The only exception is that I have about three years' worth of expense draw in FUMBX (short-term Treasury index fund) as a liability-matching move (cash-equivalent to bridge the gap from now until Social Security). I have no plans to change, nor do I see a reason.

Interesting since this is exactly what I have done. The stock portion of my 35/65 is FSKAX. I have about three years in FUMBX and the balance in FXNAX. Oh and I just retired at 60.

[hagridshut]

Yes.

The simplicity of a single fund for debt instruments is more important to me than squeezing out the optimal return with 3 or more funds. There is also no guarantee that I would pick the right mix of bond funds or manage their allocation well.

[Rowan Oak]

Staying with Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Fund Admiral Shares (VBTLX)/BND. I use Total Bond to rebalance into stocks when necessary. Sometimes I sell my Total Stock Index fund to rebalance into Total Bond.

[Gnirk]

Retired. Over 90% of my portfolio is taxable. IRA is Vanguard Total Bond Index, Taxable is all Vanguard: Total Stock Market, Dev. Markets, and Intermediate Muni bond fund.

[Ralph Furley]

I use Vanguard Total Bond Index Fund - VBTLX in my SEP IRA for all of my bond allocation. I have read many of the threads lately about how 1. bonds are terrible investments right now and 2. total bond has unnecessary risk compared to treasuries, CDs, coffee cans, mattresses, etc. I've decided to stay with Total Bond for simplicity within my four fund portfolio. Also, I'm a couple of decades away from drawing on this money.

[jason2459]

I'm still working on what my bond strategy will be. I can't deny the simplicity of just holding a total bond market though. But I keep reading more about bonds and find my self running into one conflict vs another on what one should hold.

One expert doesn't like corporate bonds, another wants to see more of them, many don't like mortgage back securities mixed in, then another expert likes specifically bonds fully dedicated to them, then another just purely suggests treasuries, then there's the own short and long treasuries, the only hold intermediate, or only hold short , or only hold tbills....

Seems like all the head spinning just drives me back to simplicity of holding the total bond market.

So far, I have a target date fund holding the the total bond market and some TIPs. For some reason TIPS have been the only thing that makes sense to me besides just holding the whole basket. But since the total bond funds don't have TIPS in them I feel I just helped the basket pile on higher.

At some point I will be out of that target date fund and hopefully will understand bonds better and may still decide to stay with the simplicity of the entire haystack.

[pascalwager]

I'm a retiree and have TBM, an IT-TIPS fund, and an LT-TIPS fund. The overall duration equals my SS live expectancy. In one account, TBM is my only reasonable choice; otherwise, I might not own it.

Holding only TBM by itself doesn't make sense to me, unless your life expectancy is around six to seven years.

[gr7070]

Seems like all the head spinning just drives me back to simplicity of holding the total bond market.

That's largely where I'm at. I've been researching fixed income allocation for retirement as I'm about to start transitioning into that allocation.

For reasons I'm not completely sure of yet I'm leaning towards adding some TIPS, too.

Total bond still seems to have the best combination of simplicity, diversification, yield and risk for the majority of ones fixed income allocation. Especially those first two, and one can add treasurys or TIPS or whatever else one wants to reduce risk or adjust other factors as desired.

[Lee_WSP]

I am unaware of a one fund alternative. If you add a second bond fund, you’re no longer a 2/3 fund.

[Big Dog]

just moved all of my Total Bond to intermediate Treasuries (after reading a bunch of threads on BH). Enables us to take [nearly] all risk on equity side. Mid-60's with a 60:40 AA.

[jason2459]

I am unaware of a one fund alternative. If you add a second bond fund, you’re no longer a 2/3 fund.

I'm going to guess here but I will assume many that follow the 2 and 3 fund portfolios have more then 2 or 3 funds. I currently have 6 and consider my self following the 3 fund principles with asset allocations across taxable and tax advantaged accounts.

401k a target date fund and an sp500 fund
Roth IRA a total market us and Total market ex-US and some TIPs fund
Taxable a total market us and Total market ex-US

Emergency fund is some cash, CD, and ultra short term muni

[Lee_WSP]

I am unaware of a one fund alternative. If you add a second bond fund, you’re no longer a 2/3 fund.

I'm going to guess here but I will assume many that follow the 2 and 3 fund portfolios have more then 2 or 3 funds. I currently have 6 and consider my self following the 3 fund principles with asset allocations across taxable and tax advantaged accounts.

Unless everyone has IRA's or a brokerage 401k option, I surmise that fund options are not always what we'd like them to be. However, having six funds within a single portfolio (single 401k for instance or an IRA at one brokerage) defeats the simplicity of a 2/3 fund portfolio and therefore you are no longer investing in a 2/3 fund portfolio. Therefore, it is by definition, not a 2/3 fund portfolio anymore.

The only reason for having multiple funds is if you have a taxable account and the old fund won't accept new money. Assuming you want to keep a 2 fund portfolio in the first place.

[CFM300]

I am unaware of a one fund alternative.

Intermediate-term Treasuries

viewtopic.php?p=5350071#p5349633

[jason2459]

I am unaware of a one fund alternative. If you add a second bond fund, you’re no longer a 2/3 fund.

I'm going to guess here but I will assume many that follow the 2 and 3 fund portfolios have more then 2 or 3 funds. I currently have 6 and consider my self following the 3 fund principles with asset allocations across taxable and tax advantaged accounts.

Unless everyone has IRA's or a brokerage 401k option, I surmise that fund options are not always what we'd like them to be. However, having six funds within a single portfolio (single 401k for instance or an IRA at one brokerage) defeats the simplicity of a 2/3 fund portfolio and therefore you are no longer investing in a 2/3 fund portfolio. Therefore, it is by definition, not a 2/3 fund portfolio anymore.

The only reason for having multiple funds is if you have a taxable account and the old fund won't accept new money. Assuming you want to keep a 2 fund portfolio in the first place.

You'll find a thread recently in the past month asking how many people following the 2 or 3 fund portfolio and have more then 2 or 3 funds exactly. It was overwhelming majority that had more then exactly 2 or 3 funds.


My target date fund alone is technically a 4 fund portfolio in one. My addition of Muni bonds for tax efficiency adds another which I consider part of my EF and not my retirement AA. So, yeah there's the strict orthodoxy approach and there's those of us that fully believe in the 2 or 3 fund portfolio and follow the guidance.

[Lee_WSP]

Having more than the two funds advocated by Bogle is clearly not a requirement to be a Bogle head. Nevertheless, having more than three funds is not being a three funder. Nor would having even a three fund be purely Bogle either.

That said, none of that matters, but I answered OPs question as posed. I will no longer respond to this tangent.

[Lee_WSP]

I am unaware of a one fund alternative.

Intermediate-term Treasuries

viewtopic.php?p=5350071#p5349633

They track so closely that they’re pretty much fungible.

[ruralavalon]

I'm looking for feedback on the 2 and 3 funders who as sticking soley with Vanguards Total Bond.

Have you decided "recently" just to stick with Total Bond? Or hav you made some changes recently?

No, not recently.

Changed to Vanguard Intermediate-term Bond Index Fund (VBILX) several years ago.

[cashboy]

yes, sticking with it (or said another way: not changing it) and am content.

i am at Fidelity so i use FXNAX:

https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/mutua ... /316146356

[mc7]

Opposite direction. Out of munis, out of Total Bond, into long term CDs.

[CFM300]

I am unaware of a one fund alternative.

Intermediate-term Treasuries

viewtopic.php?p=5350071#p5349633

They track so closely that they’re pretty much fungible.

Then aren't they an alternative?? Plus, treasuries hold up better in a crisis.

Look at what happened to ITT vs. TBM beginning around March 6th.

[Lee_WSP]

I am unaware of a one fund alternative.

Intermediate-term Treasuries

viewtopic.php?p=5350071#p5349633

They track so closely that they’re pretty much fungible.

Then aren't they an alternative?? Plus, treasuries hold up better in a crisis.

Look at what happened to ITT vs. TBM beginning around March 6th.

Alternatives are not fungible.

fun·gi·ble
/ˈfənjəbəl/
adjectiveLAW
(of goods contracted for without an individual specimen being specified) able to replace or be replaced by another identical item; mutually interchangeable.

Either way, I believe we've answered OP's question unless OP needs further clarification.

[whodidntante]

TBM is great for what it is. The costs are low and the implementation is competent. I have access to the lower-cost institutional shares (VBTIX) and have made the decision to allocate $0 to it. The problem is, I don't want to own the portfolio it owns right now.

Instead, I've put most of my fixed income into a conservatively managed (synthetic GICs) stable value fund yielding 2.15%, and I've been chasing bank bonuses with the rest. The reason I'm doing this is that I insist on being paid a higher yield to extend duration, and these zero duration assets have a significantly higher yield. The expected returns of this approach are higher. But's it's not going to move the needle much and you can't even be sure which way it will move it. So you do you.

The Rick Ferri show has featured two esteemed guests recently who were in favor of higher stock allocations now as compared to before. He didn't debate that with them. For people with a heavy allocation to bonds, I guess that's worth talking about at some point, and maybe y'all did. My fixed income allocation was pretty spartan as it was, so I don't think I have any work to do.

[CFM300]

Allow me one more pass at this...

Intermediate-term Treasury funds hold up better than Total Bond funds when the stock market tanks. You can see this by looking at what happened to each beginning in March.

Further, a 60/40 portfolio using Intermediate-term Treasuries rather than Total Bond has had better returns, less volatility, less max loss, etc.

Thus, ITT is a good one-fund alternative to TBM.

[Lee_WSP]

Allow me one more pass at this...

Intermediate-term Treasury funds hold up better than Total Bond funds when the stock market tanks. You can see this by looking at what happened to each beginning in March.

Further, a 60/40 portfolio using Intermediate-term Treasuries rather than Total Bond has had better returns, less volatility, less max loss, etc.

Thus, ITT is a good one-fund alternative to TBM.

It is a nearly fungible alternative. The difference is tiny and there’s no reason to assume it will repeat.

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100

[Whakamole]

Allow me one more pass at this...

Intermediate-term Treasury funds hold up better than Total Bond funds when the stock market tanks. You can see this by looking at what happened to each beginning in March.

Further, a 60/40 portfolio using Intermediate-term Treasuries rather than Total Bond has had better returns, less volatility, less max loss, etc.

Thus, ITT is a good one-fund alternative to TBM.

It is a nearly fungible alternative. The difference is tiny and there’s no reason to assume it will repeat.

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100

Rates have been mostly declining since 1987.

[Lee_WSP]

Allow me one more pass at this...

Intermediate-term Treasury funds hold up better than Total Bond funds when the stock market tanks. You can see this by looking at what happened to each beginning in March.

Further, a 60/40 portfolio using Intermediate-term Treasuries rather than Total Bond has had better returns, less volatility, less max loss, etc.

Thus, ITT is a good one-fund alternative to TBM.

It is a nearly fungible alternative. The difference is tiny and there’s no reason to assume it will repeat.

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion2_2=100

Rates have been mostly declining since 1987.

And therefore?

[invest4]

TBM (BND) - works fine and while I have thought about it, have not made a change.

ITT (VGIT) - have strongly considered a change to this. Agree it is a suitable alternative. The fact it has been marginally better in the past doesn't really move me from a decision making standpoint (the future may look different a la inflation, etc...and who knows how any of them will perform?). I think it's fair to base your choice on things like not wanting corporate bonds, etc. in your fixed income.

LTT (VGLT) - had also very considered adding this some time back before the more recent volatility (does a nice job when equities are going in the tank). However, believe I have largely missed that boat and not too keen to start chasing it now.

[Big Dog]

Allow me one more pass at this...

Intermediate-term Treasury funds hold up better than Total Bond funds when the stock market tanks. You can see this by looking at what happened to each beginning in March.

...

That decline is what got me to switch into Intermediate Treasuries for more safety. Mid-60's and awaiting to 70 to claim SS, so don't want to risk a prolonged decline in bond markets (which may happen with the Second Wave of covid.) OTOH, once we claim SS, will consider going back into TBM.

[CFM300]

That decline is what got me to switch into Intermediate Treasuries for more safety.

Yep. I took quite a haircut on Total Bond Market when I rebalanced into Total Stock around March 16th. When I rebalanced back into bonds (after Total Stock gains), the money went into Treasuries, not Total Bond.

[hnd]

I run 2 bond funds/etfs. I run 50/50 BND/VWESX. I like the wellington management group is mostly why. at 40yo I hold 10% in bonds and will move to 15-20% at 50yo as the market dictates the need. I feel like i will rebalance more towards BND as I age as well. By 50 a 75/25 split. Obviously all tht is subject to change as mentioned before the market dicates.

[ThePrince]

BNDW for me.

[willthrill81]

Total bond is not objectively the 'best' instrument at achieving any meaningful goal (beyond owning several types of bonds, which isn't an innately worthwhile goal at all IMHO), but many like it because it has the word 'total' in it; many on this forum like that word to be in the funds they own. But for many, it's probably 'good enough', and that's enough for many to own it.

This recent thread discussed many's thoughts on total bond market instruments.

[3funder]

Total bond; I see no reason to change or supplement.