Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

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JAZZISCOOL
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Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by JAZZISCOOL »

I just saw this post on WCI FWIW. Food for thought.

Sorry if it's already been posted but I didn't see it in searching this section.

https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/bogle ... =739538125

"So let me be very clear when I criticize my fellow Bogleheads that the amount of good being done on the forum is several orders of magnitude larger than the amount of harm. But if you can’t step back and chuckle at yourself every now and then, you’re probably wound a little bit too tight. So today, let’s step back and look at some of the silly things that happen among Bogleheads, have a little fun, and maybe even learn something in the process."
Last edited by JAZZISCOOL on Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by core4portfolio »

Bogleheds forum is meant for advising the strategy to normal person in most understandable way.
Save money wherever possible and avoid fund managers are general concepts.
#7 seems often advised here. Reason is entrepreneur become investor when a question is posted here on what to do with that kind of windfall of 5M like that. I wonder how bogleheads give another business idea to that person... if its possible then everyone was CEO already

For me, I dont see the author was right or wrong but it depends on how you see this forum.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by bertilak »

In other words, extreme positions are often too extreme.

About the three-fund portfolio. Maybe there are other just as good options, but if you have to defend a hill the three-fund is a good hill to pick. It is a non-extreme position. You can chose it and not bother yourself with the nit-pickers.

About not seeing the forest for the trees. If a question is about a choice between an oak and an elm, the discussion really needs to focus on the trees.

Otherwise, a good level-setting article.
Last edited by bertilak on Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Clever_Username »

#6 sounds like something I may have said. I didn't click the link (edit: in the article, which I now see doesn't link to this forum, so it wasn't me saying it), it might well have been.

#10 is only half right. MMM is not the devil.

I'll read the article more carefully later and carefully consider it. I find WCI very worth reading, even though I'm not the kind of doctor his posts are typically aimed at.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Tdubs »

I like #8: Liquidity is Critical. "Certainly putting 10-25% of a portfolio into illiquid investments is not an insane move." Now there's an endorsement for you.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by JAZZISCOOL »

Clever_Username wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:46 pm #6 sounds like something I may have said. I didn't click the link (edit: in the article, which I now see doesn't link to this forum, so it wasn't me saying it), it might well have been.

#10 is only half right. MMM is not the devil.

I'll read the article more carefully later and carefully consider it. I find WCI very worth reading, even though I'm not the kind of doctor his posts are typically aimed at.
I have listened to some of Dave Ramsey and believe he is good for debt reduction tips that can be obtained for free (e.g. podcast), in general (not investing).

I have also read some of MMM and think he has some good concepts, depth and breadth. He and others in the "FIRE" movement provide an interesting perspective that I find refreshing. I do not consider him (or others within FIRE) to be the devil so I missed reading any threads that stated as much. I haven't read that much about his investment advice but I like hearing about his values and minimalism.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Nowizard »

Interesting! I agree that absolutes lead to dogma and that there are many people, perhaps most, that would prefer it if there were absolute answers to complex issues. Personal opinion is that willingness to accept a level of ambiguity and that issues are not dichotomous is important. A personal issue is when absolutes are listed as the response to a poster's question, often a new poster, who has provided little information. It is critical that one consider the personal circumstances of questioners. A key issue where this applies in my opinion is regarding the stay the course related commentary.
I do agree with the overall statement that this forum is the best out there for financial advice but do take it in terms of belief that there are seldom absolute answers to complex issues. That is not the primary way responders to posts present, but it does occur frequently.

Tim
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by index245 »

Clever_Username wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:46 pm #6 sounds like something I may have said. I didn't click the link (edit: in the article, which I now see doesn't link to this forum, so it wasn't me saying it), it might well have been.

#10 is only half right. MMM is not the devil.

I'll read the article more carefully later and carefully consider it. I find WCI very worth reading, even though I'm not the kind of doctor his posts are typically aimed at.
Dave Ramsey helps a lot of people who are buried in debt (credit card, student loan, etc.) and literally have no where to start. I've listened to the program...I'm often amazed people need to be taught how to get out of debt, make a budget, live within their means, increase revenue (ie income), but that is the case. And they listen to him.

The investing advice is more of an afterthought for those who have succeeded in getting out of debt. Mostly bad advice, but not the end of the world. Stock mutual funds can make you some money, even with the fees. The funds with loads are gross. I think advising that all people go 100% stocks is horrible, given the range in risk tolerance. Many people (on this board too) also prefer to pay of a mortgage.

I have no issues with him making money on book sales, websites, courses, etc. He never says that they are purely humanitarian and non-profit. He is quite forthcoming that his goal is to make a profit.

I agree with #10 in the list
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by bck63 »

I agree with number two, but for different reasons. International stocks have been a horrible investment. I stick with a two-fund portfolio, and avoid international stocks like the plague.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Helo80 »

"Guess what? Doctors are expensive. If the bill is accurate and your insurance company has paid its portion, then it’s time for you to pay your portion. If you don’t like the deal you made with your insurance company or the deal the insurance company made with the doctor on your behalf, then go to a new insurance company. But singling out physician bills over all other professions is not fair when they have already provided you the promised services."


That's disingenuous at best and kind of a head in the sand approach to what consumers complaints are. Sure, you go to Morton's, order the filet mignon and lobster tail, order a few bottles of wine/champagne, order dessert.... don't be shocked by the bill being 100x what McDonald's would have been. But, you go to the hospital simply wanting to get better, and then potentially walk out with a 5 or 6 digit bill if SHTF because you're afflicted by something congenital or autoimmune... (I'm not even going to the obesity/tobacco/alcohol/drugs and other self-inflicted calamities).

Patients have no idea what anything costs in a hospital. Physicians have little idea either of what anything costs since insurance/medicare/medicaid/self-pay are all different. Sure, maybe a GI guy knows compensation for a standard colonoscopy b/c he/she does that all day long. But, as an ER physician WCI, people coming in from infected stubbed toes to gunshot victims... I'm sure billing is absolutely crazy.

Plus, physicians usually can defend anything they bill for either from a CYA perspective or diagnostic purposes. If there are cheaper ways of doing it, that is sometimes an after-thought, especially if "insurance is just going to cover it". If insurance or the government is going to pay for it, I'm ordering Morton's and the rest of you BHs can have leftovers from McDonald's.

If I'm not mistaken, WCI has posted in the "flaunt your high-mileage car" thread here on BH. I'm sure his high-mileage cars he has or used to have could have had thousands of dollars in repairs/maintenance done on them. However, since we as consumers foot the bill on car repairs (outside of warranties), we tend to watch the dollars more carefully. With healthcare, since other people, like insurance, might cover most, if not all of the bill... heck yeah, order the entire menu!

I once asked a major teaching hospital (satellite outpatient FM clinic) what a self-pay physician visit costs as I had an HSA... at the front desk, they had no idea. So, they went to their billing person, she arrived at the window, and then pulled out a giant binder... likely 3 inches thick, and flipped through hundreds of pages... and in about 2-3 minutes, was able to find this little line on a giant printed Excel spreadsheet that looked like size 6 font, what the cost would be for I believe a Level IV FM visit. I accepted the cost and made the appointment. I paid for it OOP on the day of the visit and ended up getting a refund check b/c it was billed as a Level III visit.

This whole situation is nuts. I mean, I can go to McDonald's and ask somebody being paid federal minimum wage on their first day what a hamburger cost and get a faster answer. And yes, I realize there is a world of difference between fast food menus and healthcare billing, but it goes to show what a nightmare of a system that is being run.

WCI --- feel free to PM me. I will respond. I understand both sides, but I appreciate why patients are frustrated with the status quo of the system, and why healthcare payments are going the way they are going in terms of future changes to our system. I also appreciate why many physicians, especially specialists, fear the direction medicine is going payment wise. Interestingly enough, the "wallet" is the unifying factor between patients and physicians. Again, WCI, feel free to PM if you prefer to take this away. Also, don't make the assumption I think everything will be better with big brother running the circus.

And WCI, obviously as an ER doc, if people show up after a car accident... they don't exactly have time to shop around or find "in-network" providers. Nor, are they in the right state of mind to let their physicians know to try to stretch their dollars as far as possible. It's not exactly unfair that people don't want to be bankrupted after a car accident.
Last edited by Helo80 on Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by 9-5 Suited »

And now for the side betting pool: which of these 10 items will become the primary debate within this thread? Dave Ramsey, ever the polarizing figure, appears to be in the early lead.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Normchad »

9-5 Suited wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:49 pm And now for the side betting pool: which of these 10 items will become the primary debate within this thread? Dave Ramsey, ever the polarizing figure, appears to be in the early lead.
I can find good things to say about Dave Ramsay. Medical Billing on the other hand.....
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Helo80 »

9-5 Suited wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:49 pm And now for the side betting pool: which of these 10 items will become the primary debate within this thread? Dave Ramsey, ever the polarizing figure, appears to be in the early lead.

It's been at least a week since the last DR thread.... We should have a BH bot that just posts entire posts from previous DR threads. E.g. just populate the DR bot with posts from the monthly DR bash threads and just have said bot randomly post a previous forum post every 2-4 hours to keep the pot stirred.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Helo80 »

Normchad wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:58 pm
9-5 Suited wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:49 pm And now for the side betting pool: which of these 10 items will become the primary debate within this thread? Dave Ramsey, ever the polarizing figure, appears to be in the early lead.
I can find good things to say about Dave Ramsay. Medical Billing on the other hand.....

Yeah, and Dave always celebrates and praises his callers who are in healthcare. That's fine when you're worth 9-digits, and I have nothing against DR for having built that wealth as he certainly did not steal a cent from my piece of the American pie.... but, some of his callers are 5/6 digits in debt purely from student loans/CC/cars and healthcare debt would certainly not help the matter.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by milktoast »

Agree on "Liquidity is Critical".

I'm always amazed when people give advice to avoid paying down mortgage to increase liquidity beyond one year expense in cash EF.

If I've burned through a year of cash and I'm still heading down, that house is going to start looking a lot more liquid.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Big Dog »

Helo80 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:42 pm And WCI, obviously as an ER doc, if people show up after a car accident... they don't exactly have time to shop around or find "in-network" providers. Nor, are they in the right state of mind to let their physicians know to try to stretch their dollars as far as possible. It's not exactly unfair that people don't want to be bankrupted after a car accident.
I would hope BogleHeads include an Uninsured (and Underinsured) Motorists Bodily Injury rider on their auto policy.....
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by anonsdca »

Helo80 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:42 pm "Guess what? Doctors are expensive. If the bill is accurate and your insurance company has paid its portion, then it’s time for you to pay your portion. If you don’t like the deal you made with your insurance company or the deal the insurance company made with the doctor on your behalf, then go to a new insurance company. But singling out physician bills over all other professions is not fair when they have already provided you the promised services."


That's disingenuous at best and kind of a head in the sand approach to what consumers complaints are. Sure, you go to Morton's, order the filet mignon and lobster tail, order a few bottles of wine/champagne, order dessert.... don't be shocked by the bill being 100x what McDonald's would have been. But, you go to the hospital simply wanting to get better, and then potentially walk out with a 5 or 6 digit bill if SHTF because you're afflicted by something congenital or autoimmune... (I'm not even going to the obesity/tobacco/alcohol/drugs and other self-inflicted calamities).

Patients have no idea what anything costs in a hospital. Physicians have little idea either of what anything costs since insurance/medicare/medicaid/self-pay are all different. Sure, maybe a GI guy knows compensation for a standard colonoscopy b/c he/she does that all day long. But, as an ER physician WCI, people coming in from infected stubbed toes to gunshot victims... I'm sure billing is absolutely crazy.

Plus, physicians usually can defend anything they bill for either from a CYA perspective or diagnostic purposes. If there are cheaper ways of doing it, that is sometimes an after-thought, especially if "insurance is just going to cover it". If insurance or the government is going to pay for it, I'm ordering Morton's and the rest of you BHs can have leftovers from McDonald's.

If I'm not mistaken, WCI has posted in the "flaunt your high-mileage car" thread here on BH. I'm sure his high-mileage cars he has or used to have could have had thousands of dollars in repairs/maintenance done on them. However, since we as consumers foot the bill on car repairs (outside of warranties), we tend to watch the dollars more carefully. With healthcare, since other people, like insurance, might cover most, if not all of the bill... heck yeah, order the entire menu!

I once asked a major teaching hospital (satellite outpatient FM clinic) what a self-pay physician visit costs as I had an HSA... at the front desk, they had no idea. So, they went to their billing person, she arrived at the window, and then pulled out a giant binder... likely 3 inches thick, and flipped through hundreds of pages... and in about 2-3 minutes, was able to find this little line on a giant printed Excel spreadsheet that looked like size 6 font, what the cost would be for I believe a Level IV FM visit. I accepted the cost and made the appointment. I paid for it OOP on the day of the visit and ended up getting a refund check b/c it was billed as a Level III visit.

This whole situation is nuts. I mean, I can go to McDonald's and ask somebody being paid federal minimum wage on their first day what a hamburger cost and get a faster answer. And yes, I realize there is a world of difference between fast food menus and healthcare billing, but it goes to show what a nightmare of a system that is being run.

WCI --- feel free to PM me. I will respond. I understand both sides, but I appreciate why patients are frustrated with the status quo of the system, and why healthcare payments are going the way they are going in terms of future changes to our system. I also appreciate why many physicians, especially specialists, fear the direction medicine is going payment wise. Interestingly enough, the "wallet" is the unifying factor between patients and physicians. Again, WCI, feel free to PM if you prefer to take this away. Also, don't make the assumption I think everything will be better with big brother running the circus.

And WCI, obviously as an ER doc, if people show up after a car accident... they don't exactly have time to shop around or find "in-network" providers. Nor, are they in the right state of mind to let their physicians know to try to stretch their dollars as far as possible. It's not exactly unfair that people don't want to be bankrupted after a car accident.
Uggg. I dont even know where to start with this post. I tried and gave up. Anyone comparing healthcare to a McDonalds burger or a steak at Mortons shouldn't be talking about the subject. It is just too complex, yet, this is the most common compare. How come I know what a burger costs but I dont know what my health care costs??? Answer. You dont know what either costs. You only know what the charge is.

You can find out the costs for both, but it does take some critical thinking and understanding of both restaurant staffing and costs and health care staffing and costs.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Sandtrap »

Agreed.
#6 & #7
Entrepreneurs and Real Estate businessman are underrepresented.

But, MMM and “Bigger Pockets” is a mine field with quicksand and cow dung, and hair brain schemes and myths, amidst the jewels of real life success and mature business wisdom. Bogleheads is a zillion times better.

It’s the overall financial and life sensibilities that put the “BogleHeads forum in best light.

j🌺
Wiki Bogleheads Wiki: Everything You Need to Know
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by AZAttorney11 »

Some of that article is click bait-ish, but he's right about Nos. 2 and 6, and maybe about 8.

The Three Fund Portfolio love affair is mind boggling. Is is a solid portfolio? Sure. Are you a degenerate gambler if you tilt or want something a little more nuanced? Not at all, but some Bogleheads, including one very well known Boglehead, will blast your posts using quotes from "experts" advising again such tilting (even though some of the very experts cited by this poster advocate for factor tilting, particularly SCV).

He's spot on regarding #6. There are a lot of Bogleheads who appear extremely risk-averse and assume the worst with real estate and tenants. Are their horror stories? Sure, but there's far more happy stories than horror stories in real estate investing. Same goes for investing. Plenty of horror stories out there. The pure disdain for real estate rentals by some Bogleheads, many of whom have never owned rental properties, is perplexing.
Last edited by AZAttorney11 on Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by AZAttorney11 »

Sandtrap wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:47 pm Agreed.
#6 & #7
Entrepreneurs and Real Estate businessman are underrepresented.

But, MMM and “Bigger Pockets” is a mine field with quicksand and cow dung, and hair brain schemes and myths, amidst the jewels of real life success and mature business wisdom. Bogleheads is a zillion times better.

It’s the overall financial and life sensibilities that put the “BogleHeads forum in best light.

j🌺
I glanced at Bigger Pockets a few months ago and was wildly unimpressed. It seems like there are lots of snakes in the grass ready to strike. Perhaps the best thing about Bogleheads is the commercial-free zone it provides.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by McGilicutty »

There's an 'illiquidity premium?' Is this a real thing or just something that Private Equity guys made up in order to get you to give them your money for 10 years?

On a positive note, I really like the ads on his site. Very clean and nicely done.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by AZAttorney11 »

bck63 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:34 pm I agree with number two, but for different reasons. International stocks have been a horrible investment. I stick with a two-fund portfolio, and avoid international stocks like the plague.
What will you do if international starts to outperform U.S. over the next 12, 36, or 60 months?
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by grok87 »

Tdubs wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 5:52 pm I like #8: Liquidity is Critical. "Certainly putting 10-25% of a portfolio into illiquid investments is not an insane move." Now there's an endorsement for you.
In general i liked the article. well written and thoughtful.

on #8, what i thought was missing was the estimated cost of getting out of the il-liquid investment. For example if one buys individual munis you will face a haircut if you need to sell, but you can still generally sell. that's different than say a private reit where you cannot get out at all for say 3-5 years.
https://www.pensco.com/blog/reit-invest ... vate-reits
i personally avoid investments where i have no liquidity (except I bonds and EE bonds for the first year) but am willing to invest in things where i may take a haircut if i need to sell.
RIP Mr. Bogle.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by 02nz »

Interesting. I haven't seen a lot of hate of MMM here, and to say that anybody here thinks DR is the "devil incarnate" (even though it's clearly meant tongue-in-cheek) is probably unfair; I think even the critics (including myself) agree DR is good for getting out of debt; it's the investing advice (12% average annual returns!) and especially the incentive structure that's not clearly disclosed to listeners, that many find troubling.

I'd add a #11: Expensive college is never worth it. (OK, like the rest of it that's a caricature of "Boglehead" views, but there's definitely a bias here against paying a lot for higher ed.)
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by RocketShipTech »

McGilicutty wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:54 pm There's an 'illiquidity premium?' Is this a real thing or just something that Private Equity guys made up in order to get you to give them your money for 10 years?

On a positive note, I really like the ads on his site. Very clean and nicely done.
You’d Pay Not to See Your Stock Price
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Helo80 »

Big Dog wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:32 pm
Helo80 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:42 pm And WCI, obviously as an ER doc, if people show up after a car accident... they don't exactly have time to shop around or find "in-network" providers. Nor, are they in the right state of mind to let their physicians know to try to stretch their dollars as far as possible. It's not exactly unfair that people don't want to be bankrupted after a car accident.
I would hope BogleHeads include an Uninsured (and Underinsured) Motorists Bodily Injury rider on their auto policy.....
Oh yeah, I agree. But, that costs extra and some people don't have tons of money.

I even have a rider on my umbrella coverage that covers social media should any of y'all dox me. :annoyed
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by eagleeyes »

anonsdca wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:45 pm
Helo80 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:42 pm "Guess what? Doctors are expensive. If the bill is accurate and your insurance company has paid its portion, then it’s time for you to pay your portion. If you don’t like the deal you made with your insurance company or the deal the insurance company made with the doctor on your behalf, then go to a new insurance company. But singling out physician bills over all other professions is not fair when they have already provided you the promised services."


That's disingenuous at best and kind of a head in the sand approach to what consumers complaints are. Sure, you go to Morton's, order the filet mignon and lobster tail, order a few bottles of wine/champagne, order dessert.... don't be shocked by the bill being 100x what McDonald's would have been. But, you go to the hospital simply wanting to get better, and then potentially walk out with a 5 or 6 digit bill if SHTF because you're afflicted by something congenital or autoimmune... (I'm not even going to the obesity/tobacco/alcohol/drugs and other self-inflicted calamities).

Patients have no idea what anything costs in a hospital. Physicians have little idea either of what anything costs since insurance/medicare/medicaid/self-pay are all different. Sure, maybe a GI guy knows compensation for a standard colonoscopy b/c he/she does that all day long. But, as an ER physician WCI, people coming in from infected stubbed toes to gunshot victims... I'm sure billing is absolutely crazy.

Plus, physicians usually can defend anything they bill for either from a CYA perspective or diagnostic purposes. If there are cheaper ways of doing it, that is sometimes an after-thought, especially if "insurance is just going to cover it". If insurance or the government is going to pay for it, I'm ordering Morton's and the rest of you BHs can have leftovers from McDonald's.

If I'm not mistaken, WCI has posted in the "flaunt your high-mileage car" thread here on BH. I'm sure his high-mileage cars he has or used to have could have had thousands of dollars in repairs/maintenance done on them. However, since we as consumers foot the bill on car repairs (outside of warranties), we tend to watch the dollars more carefully. With healthcare, since other people, like insurance, might cover most, if not all of the bill... heck yeah, order the entire menu!

I once asked a major teaching hospital (satellite outpatient FM clinic) what a self-pay physician visit costs as I had an HSA... at the front desk, they had no idea. So, they went to their billing person, she arrived at the window, and then pulled out a giant binder... likely 3 inches thick, and flipped through hundreds of pages... and in about 2-3 minutes, was able to find this little line on a giant printed Excel spreadsheet that looked like size 6 font, what the cost would be for I believe a Level IV FM visit. I accepted the cost and made the appointment. I paid for it OOP on the day of the visit and ended up getting a refund check b/c it was billed as a Level III visit.

This whole situation is nuts. I mean, I can go to McDonald's and ask somebody being paid federal minimum wage on their first day what a hamburger cost and get a faster answer. And yes, I realize there is a world of difference between fast food menus and healthcare billing, but it goes to show what a nightmare of a system that is being run.

WCI --- feel free to PM me. I will respond. I understand both sides, but I appreciate why patients are frustrated with the status quo of the system, and why healthcare payments are going the way they are going in terms of future changes to our system. I also appreciate why many physicians, especially specialists, fear the direction medicine is going payment wise. Interestingly enough, the "wallet" is the unifying factor between patients and physicians. Again, WCI, feel free to PM if you prefer to take this away. Also, don't make the assumption I think everything will be better with big brother running the circus.

And WCI, obviously as an ER doc, if people show up after a car accident... they don't exactly have time to shop around or find "in-network" providers. Nor, are they in the right state of mind to let their physicians know to try to stretch their dollars as far as possible. It's not exactly unfair that people don't want to be bankrupted after a car accident.
Uggg. I dont even know where to start with this post. I tried and gave up. Anyone comparing healthcare to a McDonalds burger or a steak at Mortons shouldn't be talking about the subject. It is just too complex, yet, this is the most common compare. How come I know what a burger costs but I dont know what my health care costs??? Answer. You dont know what either costs. You only know what the charge is.

You can find out the costs for both, but it does take some critical thinking and understanding of both restaurant staffing and costs and health care staffing and costs.

Anon,

I agree with helo. I think the heart of his post describes the lack of transparency and opacity of health care billing. While his metaphor is not perfect, it is just that, a metaphor.

Physician health care bills consume a much smaller portion of national health care expenditure than big hospitals and big pharma. It’s just easier to pin a face to your doctors bills

He’s asking to be an informed consumer. I believe that to be fair and give kudos.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Helo80 »

anonsdca wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:45 pm Uggg. I dont even know where to start with this post. I tried and gave up. Anyone comparing healthcare to a McDonalds burger or a steak at Mortons shouldn't be talking about the subject. It is just too complex, yet, this is the most common compare. How come I know what a burger costs but I dont know what my health care costs??? Answer. You dont know what either costs. You only know what the charge is.

You can find out the costs for both, but it does take some critical thinking and understanding of both restaurant staffing and costs and health care staffing and costs.

Sure... clearly I was speaking of how much the hamburger costs McDonald's...

And yes, I admit it's a very complex subject, but, that's the system that has emerged.

Also, i apologize if my metaphors are not good or clear enough for you. However, most physicians would get tired, real fast, if every patient asked them how much every test would cost them.
Last edited by Helo80 on Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
leftcoaster
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by leftcoaster »

It’s not a bad list. Since we are offering feedback... I find it silly that we get these doctor-specific threads here. Most docs are working as employees. They have a ton of student debt. Not too different from others professions. I know everyone thinks they are special...
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Helo80 »

eagleeyes wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:11 pm He’s asking to be an informed consumer. I believe that to be fair and give kudos.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

I gave the example of my experience to find the charge for a simply PC visit at a satellite FM clinic and even the billing person took a few minutes to track that information down. I did get it, but I can only relay that it was in a giant binder with I'm not even kidding, like size 6 font on an Excel spreadsheet like page.

Of course they said, "Just go through your insurance because it's cheaper that way" --- which I found odd because it normal world, it's better to have one in the bag than two in the bush when dealing with insurance companies and promises of payment. I was willing to pay up front, day of visit and I was told that would be more expensive than going thru insurance. (I'm not 100% sure that was true though because I later found out you get 20% off if you self-pay though who knows what insurance companies negotiated with the system).

Now, with COVID cases impacting hospital systems and patient pay getting slashed and/or 401k matching on hold in some major systems (if memory serves from news articles), it makes me wonder how much funny money is going on in the system.

Just to be clear --- not singling out WCI, but his claim that "Doctors are expensive" and we should just pay for whatever is charged... I hate to say it, but I don't see too many of y'all bending over when you go to car dealerships and buy new/used cars and/or take your car to the dealership to get routine maintenance done. There are a lot of people that watch their wallets at the car dealership, but apparently, we're not allowed to watch our wallets in medical building.

Disclaimer: I am not in the auto industry. i am no longer in the healthcare industry (by the grace of God)
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Big Dog »

Helo80 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:11 pm
Big Dog wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:32 pm
Helo80 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:42 pm And WCI, obviously as an ER doc, if people show up after a car accident... they don't exactly have time to shop around or find "in-network" providers. Nor, are they in the right state of mind to let their physicians know to try to stretch their dollars as far as possible. It's not exactly unfair that people don't want to be bankrupted after a car accident.
I would hope BogleHeads include an Uninsured (and Underinsured) Motorists Bodily Injury rider on their auto policy.....
Oh yeah, I agree. But, that costs extra and some people don't have tons of money.

I even have a rider on my umbrella coverage that covers social media should any of y'all dox me. :annoyed
sure, but don't blame the docs for not having proper coverages.....if your neighborhood floods and you don't have flood insurance, do you blame the contractor's prices while are trying to make repairs?
Helo80
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Helo80 »

Big Dog wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:29 pm sure, but don't blame the docs for not having proper coverages.....if your neighborhood floods and you don't have flood insurance, do you blame the contractor's prices while are trying to make repairs?

I'm allowed to shop around for contractors, right? I also can get straightforward prices, right?

TBH -- I'm insured out the you know what. I have a policy of not going into my private financials here. But, I can certainly empathize with the frustration many Americans have with healthcare billing. Just because I'll be fine, does not mean FYIGM. And tbh, I don't really have a bleeding heart.
Last edited by Helo80 on Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
typical.investor
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by typical.investor »

anonsdca wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:45 pm
Helo80 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 6:42 pm "Guess what? Doctors are expensive. If the bill is accurate and your insurance company has paid its portion, then it’s time for you to pay your portion. If you don’t like the deal you made with your insurance company or the deal the insurance company made with the doctor on your behalf, then go to a new insurance company. But singling out physician bills over all other professions is not fair when they have already provided you the promised services."


That's disingenuous at best and kind of a head in the sand approach to what consumers complaints are. Sure, you go to Morton's, order the filet mignon and lobster tail, order a few bottles of wine/champagne, order dessert.... don't be shocked by the bill being 100x what McDonald's would have been. But, you go to the hospital simply wanting to get better, and then potentially walk out with a 5 or 6 digit bill if SHTF because you're afflicted by something congenital or autoimmune... (I'm not even going to the obesity/tobacco/alcohol/drugs and other self-inflicted calamities).

Patients have no idea what anything costs in a hospital. Physicians have little idea either of what anything costs since insurance/medicare/medicaid/self-pay are all different. Sure, maybe a GI guy knows compensation for a standard colonoscopy b/c he/she does that all day long. But, as an ER physician WCI, people coming in from infected stubbed toes to gunshot victims... I'm sure billing is absolutely crazy.

Plus, physicians usually can defend anything they bill for either from a CYA perspective or diagnostic purposes. If there are cheaper ways of doing it, that is sometimes an after-thought, especially if "insurance is just going to cover it". If insurance or the government is going to pay for it, I'm ordering Morton's and the rest of you BHs can have leftovers from McDonald's.

If I'm not mistaken, WCI has posted in the "flaunt your high-mileage car" thread here on BH. I'm sure his high-mileage cars he has or used to have could have had thousands of dollars in repairs/maintenance done on them. However, since we as consumers foot the bill on car repairs (outside of warranties), we tend to watch the dollars more carefully. With healthcare, since other people, like insurance, might cover most, if not all of the bill... heck yeah, order the entire menu!

I once asked a major teaching hospital (satellite outpatient FM clinic) what a self-pay physician visit costs as I had an HSA... at the front desk, they had no idea. So, they went to their billing person, she arrived at the window, and then pulled out a giant binder... likely 3 inches thick, and flipped through hundreds of pages... and in about 2-3 minutes, was able to find this little line on a giant printed Excel spreadsheet that looked like size 6 font, what the cost would be for I believe a Level IV FM visit. I accepted the cost and made the appointment. I paid for it OOP on the day of the visit and ended up getting a refund check b/c it was billed as a Level III visit.

This whole situation is nuts. I mean, I can go to McDonald's and ask somebody being paid federal minimum wage on their first day what a hamburger cost and get a faster answer. And yes, I realize there is a world of difference between fast food menus and healthcare billing, but it goes to show what a nightmare of a system that is being run.

WCI --- feel free to PM me. I will respond. I understand both sides, but I appreciate why patients are frustrated with the status quo of the system, and why healthcare payments are going the way they are going in terms of future changes to our system. I also appreciate why many physicians, especially specialists, fear the direction medicine is going payment wise. Interestingly enough, the "wallet" is the unifying factor between patients and physicians. Again, WCI, feel free to PM if you prefer to take this away. Also, don't make the assumption I think everything will be better with big brother running the circus.

And WCI, obviously as an ER doc, if people show up after a car accident... they don't exactly have time to shop around or find "in-network" providers. Nor, are they in the right state of mind to let their physicians know to try to stretch their dollars as far as possible. It's not exactly unfair that people don't want to be bankrupted after a car accident.
Uggg. I dont even know where to start with this post. I tried and gave up. Anyone comparing healthcare to a McDonalds burger or a steak at Mortons shouldn't be talking about the subject. It is just too complex, yet, this is the most common compare. How come I know what a burger costs but I dont know what my health care costs??? Answer. You dont know what either costs. You only know what the charge is.

You can find out the costs for both, but it does take some critical thinking and understanding of both restaurant staffing and costs and health care staffing and costs.
Uuugh, it’s absurd to suggest you can find out the costs of medicine in advance.

One out-of-network doctor and bam!
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by eigenperson »

#9 is self-serving and disingenuous, and to be honest I expected better from White Coat Investor. Surely he understands that physician bills are different from all other professions, because physicians are basically the only ones who refuse to disclose prices until after the work is done. Relatively few people would complain about an $8000 charge for a 4-hour ER visit if there were a sign on the door saying "Rate: $2000/hour," or about a $20,000 out-of-network charge for the anesthesiologist if they were provided with an estimate before their surgery stating that the anesthesiologist will be charging $20,000 and is not in network. They might, of course, choose to take their business elsewhere, but that's how capitalism is supposed to work. The remaining complaints would come mostly from people who were provided that service without their choice or consent because they were unconscious -- another situation that obviously doesn't apply to other professionals.

When no one will tell you the price until after the services are done, and then the price turns out to be significantly above -- perhaps many times above -- the typical price, it is fully appropriate to vigorously dispute the charge, including by refusing to pay.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by 2pedals »

in #1, WCI states "there is nobody who can actually speak for the entire community and there is actually very little that the vast majority of the community agrees on". Then he titles the article "Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong". :confused
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by theTRA »

That article is clickbait. Otherwise worthless...
# 1 There is “Boglehead Consensus” on Every Topic
This is one of my personal favorites. Sometimes it shows up as a poster asking “What do Bogleheads think of……” or “What is the Bogleheads Doctrine on….?” But more often it shows up in the answers from someone who feels like they speak for all Bogleheads. Well, there are over 91,000 Bogleheads and if the ratio of posters to lurkers is the same as on the WCI Forum, there are likely over a million people using the forum regularly. Needless to say, there is nobody who can actually speak for the entire community and there is actually very little that the vast majority of the community agrees on.
I really don't see what the argument here is. "What do bogleheads think of..." Well surely it's appropriate to ask the opinion of other Bogleheads in the place where the forum was conceived? And I have not seen egregious use of the word "we" by individual posters here.

#2 The 3 fund portfolio is special.
Boglehead wiki highlights 2, 3 and 4 fund porfolios...It really doesn't even matter. I don't understand why author is offended
#3Optimizing Investments Is The Key to Wealth
The Bogleheads are very good at optimizing investments. They’ll help you pick the best funds out of your 401(k) line-up, do some tax-loss harvesting, get your average expense ratio down, and save some tax dollars. But they sometimes miss the forest for the trees.
Author argues in the #1 that a boglehead consensus is impossible given there are over 91,000 registered members. He's correct. We are all unique.
However, while acknowledging the diversity of bogleheads opinions in the first point, by the 3rd, we are all seemingly lumped together again with no diversity of opinion or ability. Interesting...but hey, anything for clicks right?
# 5 Expense Ratios Always Matter
I find it hilarious to watch people try to reduce their overall mutual fund expense ratio by a basis point or two. As discussed under # 1, cost matters, and it matters a lot. But little costs don’t matter a lot. When costs get down to a certain level, other things matter more. For instance, with an index fund three things matter:

What index
How well the fund tracks it
At what cost?
What I remember is that when Fidelity came out with their zero expense funds, a subset of bogleheads expressing the opinion that its not worth it for 1-2 basis points, and that index tracking is bigger deal. Again, author recognizes the diversity of boglehead opinions in #1, but lumps us all back together again in #5.



ah but finally the Author makes a handwavy concession. Pretending to have perused the entire forum of post from over 91,000 registered users to deduce that there are "too many of them" making these "mistakes".
As I mentioned at the beginning, there are many Bogleheads who aren’t holding on to any of these misguided beliefs. It is a very diverse community after all with a variety of incomes, professions, genders, races, sexual orientations, and religions. But there are too many Bogleheads who are not only making these mistakes, but evangelizing them.

I have not been here that long, I do not claim allegiance to anything, but I have two eyes, can read, and this piece seems a bit silly...but credit to whitecoat for knowing what gets the clicks :sharebeer
Last edited by theTRA on Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:49 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Helo80 »

typical.investor wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:33 pm Uuugh, it’s absurd to suggest you can find out the costs of medicine in advance.

One out-of-network doctor and bam!


Yuppers....

And my Voodoo doll in the healthcare office has not been violated by any physicians, and I have not personally but on the hook, nor has anybody in my immediate family, for some egregious, out of control bill.

Merely, I read the horror stories, and I empathize with people. Empathy is an emotion that most physicians had to fake at least for a short while in their medical school interview and maybe during their third year clinical.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by MathWizard »

The title of the article should have been

10 things on which I disagree with some people who post in Bogleheads
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by grok87 »

eigenperson wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:33 pm #9 is self-serving and disingenuous, and to be honest I expected better from White Coat Investor. Surely he understands that physician bills are different from all other professions, because physicians are basically the only ones who refuse to disclose prices until after the work is done. Relatively few people would complain about an $8000 charge for a 4-hour ER visit if there were a sign on the door saying "Rate: $2000/hour," or about a $20,000 out-of-network charge for the anesthesiologist if they were provided with an estimate before their surgery stating that the anesthesiologist will be charging $20,000 and is not in network. They might, of course, choose to take their business elsewhere, but that's how capitalism is supposed to work. The remaining complaints would come mostly from people who were provided that service without their choice or consent because they were unconscious -- another situation that obviously doesn't apply to other professionals.

When no one will tell you the price until after the services are done, and then the price turns out to be significantly above -- perhaps many times above -- the typical price, it is fully appropriate to vigorously dispute the charge, including by refusing to pay.
agree
RIP Mr. Bogle.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by theTRA »

MathWizard wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:51 pm The title of the article should have been

10 things on which I disagree with some people who post in Bogleheads
Correct. That would be a million times more accurate.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by theTRA »

2pedals wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:37 pm in #1, WCI states "there is nobody who can actually speak for the entire community and there is actually very little that the vast majority of the community agrees on". Then he titles the article "Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong". :confused
:!:
Normchad
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Normchad »

Helo80 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:43 pm
typical.investor wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 8:33 pm Uuugh, it’s absurd to suggest you can find out the costs of medicine in advance.

One out-of-network doctor and bam!


Yuppers....

And my Voodoo doll in the healthcare office has not been violated by any physicians, and I have not personally but on the hook, nor has anybody in my immediate family, for some egregious, out of control bill.

Merely, I read the horror stories, and I empathize with people. Empathy is an emotion that most physicians had to fake at least for a short while in their medical school interview and maybe during their third year clinical.
It *is* absolutely absurd.

You can do everything right, and still get screwed. You can go the in-network hospital, and have an in-network surgeon, and still get bills for thousands of dollars from the out-of-network anestesiologist. I'm sure lots of people will say "you can straighten that out later"; well good luck with that. You can;'t. You get bills from 3rd party billers you've never of, and there are no phone numbers on them. You have no recourse. Better do something fast or you end up in collections.

And how exactly are you supposed to do any better, with a service you need in an emergency? you can't know the price, you can't shop around; you can't contest the bill, etc etc etc.

And all of that is what I get, with my gold plated super duper expensive plan. Millions of people can't even have a plan like mine.

I do not have real choice in the market place. I can not buy a better plan.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by JAZZISCOOL »

The responses WCI is getting on his forum are an interesting read and there are some positive ones for BH:

Example:

"June 20, 2020 at 2:24 pm MST

EmergDoc

I don’t go back as far as Diehards but I did start on Bogleheads in 2009 and began with you (WCI) in about 2015
I am amused by your Bogleheads critique. A high percentage of Bogleheads are in engineering fields including computers. People who work with numbers don’t believe you can put the essence of investing on a 4×6 index card
To them; if you buy low ER index mutual funds and avoid the big mistakes you should be ok, is grossly imprecise
advise.
Just avoid the discussions about how to define Statistical Significance, most of the rest of Bogleheads is excellent. Jack Bogle and John Neff are my Heros

You have your MDs and Dentists and at least one Veterinarian ………gwrvmd"

Scroll to the bottom to see comments:

https://www.whitecoatinvestor.com/bogleheads/#comments
typical.investor
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by typical.investor »

I disagree with Jim Dahle's assertion that Bogleheads err in optimizing investments as the key to wealth
When someone comes to the forum with an income of $25,000 a year and a $1,200 portfolio they need to be told that they need to increase their income, not swap their Target Retirement 2040 for a Life Strategy Moderate Fund. When someone comes to the forum making $100,000 and saving $5,000 a year, they need to be told that they should spend less and save more, not tax loss harvest. Boosting income and increasing your savings rate are dramatically more important steps, but are ignored far too often.
I know I personally and regularly comment that finding the perfect asset allocation isn't going to have as much impact as how much you contribute. That's exactly what I said to the last poster I saw making $25k. And there were literally 20 posts suggesting the OP not sell themselves short and to try to make more money.

Anyway, I guess my biggest complaint about doctors is that they prescribe too much unnecessary and addictive pain killers. Oh, and they recommend medicine for reimbursement from drug companies instead of how well it benefits you. Of course, I don't actually know any doctors who do that and wouldn't suggest that they as a group are for those things.

In the end, I think Jim Dahle is more interested in driving views to his site for the ad revenue that portraying what actually goes on at Bogleheads.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Nate79 »

What an excellent article by Jim. I whole heartedly agree with all his points. I really enjoy his podcasts and his posts on Bogleheads as well. Well done spot on description of Bogleheads and where this site gets it wrong.
Last edited by Nate79 on Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by geerhardusvos »

Sandtrap wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 7:47 pm Agreed.
#6 & #7
Entrepreneurs and Real Estate businessman are underrepresented.

But, MMM and “Bigger Pockets” is a mine field with quicksand and cow dung, and hair brain schemes and myths, amidst the jewels of real life success and mature business wisdom. Bogleheads is a zillion times better.

It’s the overall financial and life sensibilities that put the “BogleHeads forum in best light.

j🌺
+1

I appreciate the diversity, thoughtfulness, and wisdom of the Bogle heads. Truly a one of a kind forum and well run.
VTSAX and chill
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by Ben Mathew »

Interesting post. My thoughts on some of his points:

Beyond a few core principles like index funds, low fees, and tax-conscious planning, I see little consensus on Bogleheads. There is a wide range of opinion on things like factor tilts, glide paths, and withdrawal strategies. I believe I hold a minority opinion on a few subjects: advocating a glide path rooted in lifecycle principles, arguing against excessive emergency funds, and claiming that short time horizons don't call for a safer asset allocation. I don't feel unduly harassed--which is pretty impressive for an online forum. I suspect the tireless moderators have a lot to do with it.

I also never got the sense that the three fund portfolio is being placed on a pedestal here. Taylor suggests it often, but that's his view and his is one voice among many--part of the diversity of opinions being expressed. I've suggested the three fund portfolio sometimes, when I felt simplicity is important and tilting is beyond the scope of where the investor currently is. But I personally tilt, and have said so several times without anyone yelling at me. Grabiner has said he tilts, and he is highly respected here. There are plenty of factor enthusiasts who tilt, and are very vocal about it. I never got the sense that their views are unwelcome.

As for real estate, illiquid investments, career planning, and entrepreneurship, I think that's beyond the scope of what one forum can handle. When a poster specifically asks for career advice, there's usually a tremendous amount of information that is provided. But when someone says I have a salary of $X and savings of $Y and how should I handle my investments and when can I retire, telling that person to get a job with a higher salary or pick up a side hustle seems unhelpful. The low hanging fruit that they can achieve with a few mouse clicks and maybe some belt tightening is not career change or real estate wheeling and dealing or entrepreneurship, but funding their retirement accounts, investing in low cost funds at a sensible AA, saving enough to meet their goals for retirement (or finding out that they can't and what they are willing to give up), figuring out when they can realistically retire, figuring out how much they can withdraw in retirement, whether they should build a bond bridge till social security, whether to contribute to Roth or traditional, whether and when to convert to Roth, whether to buy a SPIA, whether to have life insurance, and so on. These important and difficult topics, and deserve a forum focused on it.
Last edited by Ben Mathew on Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by AZAttorney11 »

Ben Mathew wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:23 pm I also never got the sense that the three fund portfolio is being placed on a pedestal here. Taylor suggests it often, but that's his view and his is one voice among many--part of the diversity of opinions being expressed. I've suggested the three fund portfolio sometimes, when I felt simplicity is important and tilting is beyond the scope of where the investor currently is. But I personally tilt, and have said so several times without anyone yelling at me. Grabiner has said he tilts, and he is highly respected here. There are plenty of factor enthusiasts who tilt, and are very vocal about it. I never got the sense that their views are unwelcome.
Go check out the "Small Cap Value Heads Rejoice" thread and see the countless 3-fund portfolio drive bys that take place.
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Re: Top 10 Things Bogleheads Get Wrong - White Coat Investor

Post by typical.investor »

AZAttorney11 wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:27 pm
Ben Mathew wrote: Mon Jun 22, 2020 9:23 pm I also never got the sense that the three fund portfolio is being placed on a pedestal here. Taylor suggests it often, but that's his view and his is one voice among many--part of the diversity of opinions being expressed. I've suggested the three fund portfolio sometimes, when I felt simplicity is important and tilting is beyond the scope of where the investor currently is. But I personally tilt, and have said so several times without anyone yelling at me. Grabiner has said he tilts, and he is highly respected here. There are plenty of factor enthusiasts who tilt, and are very vocal about it. I never got the sense that their views are unwelcome.
Go check out the "Small Cap Value Heads Rejoice" thread and see the countless 3-fund portfolio drive bys that take place.
And?

Isn't discussion healthy? Why can't people voice their opinion that that may not be the best approach.

I see many suggestions to add some value or other factors in many, many (many three fund) threads.
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