Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

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kimura king
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Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by kimura king »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm25gueDHsE&t=1302s

At 6:50 a guy calls in about expense ratios and they talk about it until 8:20.

At 13:30 Dave Ramsey says he has never heard a millionaire that says they were held back by an expense ratio, talks about loading fee's, bogleheads and a Vanguard s&p 500 are specifically mentioned at 17:00.

My 2 cents - he tap dances around the impact of high fees. It matters 1 year into investing and 10 years into investing. It matters every year. Also, just because people are millionaires doesn't mean they are an investing expert, I mean JL Collins went to talk to google employee's and stated everyone there was smart and made a lot of money but that didn't meant they were smart about investing. Anyways just thought I would share. 3 fund is better than what these salesmen, I mean "advisors", have to offer. I used to be so confused about investing but after reading here for a few months his points about investing seem little league.

I still like his mentality about money, but trust bogleheads for actual investing. Pretty much the same thing that you guys have said for years.
Last edited by kimura king on Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
DesertDiva
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by DesertDiva »

kimura king wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:33 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm25gueDHsE&t=1302s

At 6:50 a guy calls in about index funds and they talk about it until 8:20

At 13:30 Dave Ramsey says he has never heard a millionaire that says they were held back by an expense ratio, talks about loading fee's, bogleheads and a Vanguard s&p 500 are specifically mentioned at 17:00.

My 2 cents - he tap dances around the impact of high fees. It matters 1 year into investing and 10 years into investing. It matters every year. Also, just because people are millionaires doesn't mean they are an investing expert, I mean JL Collins went to talk to google employee's and stated everyone there was smart and made a lot of money but that didn't meant they were smart about investing. Anyways just thought I would share. 3 fund is better than what these salesmen, I mean "advisors", have to offer.
Ok.
Blue456
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Blue456 »

kimura king wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:33 pm At 13:30 Dave Ramsey says he has never heard a millionaire that says they were held back by an expense ratio, talks about loading fee's, bogleheads and a Vanguard s&p 500 are specifically mentioned at 17:00.
I think there is plenty of millionaires in here that would be bothered by expense ratio.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by sailaway »

What about the guy with 999,000 who could have been a millionaire with lower fees, though?
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by mhalley »

I guess he at least has a cutoff where he would not buy a fund with over a 2%er, but commission plus 1 to 2% is ok. :oops:
wodahSShadow
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by wodahSShadow »

Ben Felix sums Ramsey’s investing “expertise” quite well: https://youtu.be/E3D35ioEmCI
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by tesuzuki2002 »

I don't like to spend thousands and thousands on management fees... when essentially their management is setup on autopilot anyway.. So yeah.. I would go for Low ERs...

when your assets are in the millions and you notice you are paying out $20 / 30 / $40,000 in ERs annually... You might start to follow it better.... that could buy a nice car EVERY YEAR!
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by JoMoney »

Dave Ramsey gives paid endorsements for financial planners selling high-fee/commissioned funds to be in his 'network'.
Maybe there is some behavioral benefit for people who choose to go that route. I know some people enjoy having their money 'guy' or 'gal' to turn to, and seem happily oblivious to what it's actually costing them :confused :annoyed
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Cam894 »

kimura king wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:33 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm25gueDHsE&t=1302s

At 6:50 a guy calls in about expense ratios and they talk about it until 8:20.

At 13:30 Dave Ramsey says he has never heard a millionaire that says they were held back by an expense ratio, talks about loading fee's, bogleheads and a Vanguard s&p 500 are specifically mentioned at 17:00.

My 2 cents - he tap dances around the impact of high fees. It matters 1 year into investing and 10 years into investing. It matters every year. Also, just because people are millionaires doesn't mean they are an investing expert, I mean JL Collins went to talk to google employee's and stated everyone there was smart and made a lot of money but that didn't meant they were smart about investing. Anyways just thought I would share. 3 fund is better than what these salesmen, I mean "advisors", have to offer. I used to be so confused about investing but after reading here for a few months his points about investing seem little league.

I still like his mentality about money, but trust bogleheads for actual investing. Pretty much the same thing that you guys have said for years.

Dave Ramsey isn’t stupid. He knows the value of passive investing. However, he has products to sell as part of his business. I believe it’s called “SmartVestor Pro” and is the exact type of service warned against by bogleheads. It is also poorly reviewed by people who used it.

You tend to outgrow Ramsey pretty early on in your financial life. That said he has help loads of people with serious financial problems. If you have followed his steps and gone from financial ruin to being able to invest you are probably more than happy with yourself and could care less about fees and optimal investment strategy.

I will say I’m a sucker for the millionaire theme hour and the train wreck phone calls he receives.
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kimura king
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by kimura king »

tesuzuki2002 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:06 pm I don't like to spend thousands and thousands on management fees... when essentially their management is setup on autopilot anyway.. So yeah.. I would go for Low ERs...

when your assets are in the millions and you notice you are paying out $20 / 30 / $40,000 in ERs annually... You might start to follow it better.... that could buy a nice car EVERY YEAR!
yes, I can see it that way, but really I don't worry too much about multi-millionaires or a guy like Dave Ramsey that owns a paid like 75 million cash for his office, instead, I worry about normal people paying a 1-2% fee. That is just getting ripped off. Ripping off a guy worth 10 mil is a lot different than ripping off a guy worth 100k.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by JimmyJammy »

I know a few people who structure their financial life around Dave Ramsey's advice / coaching.

Apparently, he tells everyone to a expect a 12% annual return on the stock market:

https://investorjunkie.com/investing/da ... nt-return/
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by mrspock »

kimura king wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:33 pm https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jm25gueDHsE&t=1302s

At 6:50 a guy calls in about expense ratios and they talk about it until 8:20.

At 13:30 Dave Ramsey says he has never heard a millionaire that says they were held back by an expense ratio, talks about loading fee's, bogleheads and a Vanguard s&p 500 are specifically mentioned at 17:00.

My 2 cents - he tap dances around the impact of high fees. It matters 1 year into investing and 10 years into investing. It matters every year. Also, just because people are millionaires doesn't mean they are an investing expert, I mean JL Collins went to talk to google employee's and stated everyone there was smart and made a lot of money but that didn't meant they were smart about investing. Anyways just thought I would share. 3 fund is better than what these salesmen, I mean "advisors", have to offer. I used to be so confused about investing but after reading here for a few months his points about investing seem little league.

I still like his mentality about money, but trust bogleheads for actual investing. Pretty much the same thing that you guys have said for years.
Dave Ramsey should spend some quality time with PortfolioVisualizer or a compound interest calculator. For people with long investing horizons, even small increases in expense ratios can mean 100's of thousands of dollars in your pocket or somebody else's. For example $1m growing for 30 years is $13.2m @ 9% vs. $14.2m @ 9.25% -- and there are many index funds with higher fees than 0.25%. I don't know about Dave, but I'd rather than $1m be in my pocket vs. somewhere else.

The other way I look at this is time: my years on this earth are finite...the sooner I achieve FI, the sooner I retire. Why give up valuable time to line somebody else's pockets?
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by whodidntante »

This dude still recommends A-shares (front-end load) funds that also have ongoing expenses that are higher than anything in my portfolio. And he's presenting himself as a trustworthy expert and recommending expensive investments to people who struggle with the basics of personal finance, even going so far as to call his recommended milestones "baby steps." LOL

Once you understand his financial incentives, his positions makes sense. He could tell his listeners to buy low-cost funds, but that puts less money in his pocket. He could teach people how to rationally use credit and about career planning to earn more money, but that's not nearly as entertaining as "debt-free screams" and telling people to sell their possessions "until the kids think they're next" and to "deliver some pizzas." He also appeals to the most common religion among his listeners to boost his authority with them. Yep, now that's a package that will keep people listening, even spreading your message for you. And since there is no reason to stop with advertiser dollars, you can sell books and workshops built around the Dave show.

Dave is a successful entertainer and a business person. As a financial advisor, LOL, hard pass.
Last edited by whodidntante on Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Clever_Username »

sailaway wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:43 pm What about the guy with 999,000 who could have been a millionaire with lower fees, though?
Pfft, if only there were a way to discover which subset of people wish to become a millionaire. Television never quite asks that question.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by LeslieSmiley »

i didn't know who dave ramsey was but i kept hearing his names popping up as some wise finance/investment guru. so i listened to some of his radio broadcast and most he talked about was "debt free" and "mortgage free".

being "debt free" from loans that have high interest rate is prudent. living within your means is wise. but paying off your mortgage as soon as you can seemed to be the key to financial freedom according to what he said didn't make much sense to me. because if you can get a mortgage or a loan of any kind with a very low interest, why deplete your cash to pay off such loan whereas you can deploy that money to an investment instrument that would yield you a higher return.

i took up a loan of 0.5% APR for 5 years when i bought a car a while ago when the online saving accounts were paying 5% APY even though i had the cash to pay for the car. even after tax, i was still earning a few percents for 5 years.

during my accumulating years, i could pay down or pay off my mortgage but i didn't because my interest rate was 3.75% APR and my mutual funds were returning way more than that year after year.

i also tested bank investment advisory service for a few years. i invested with them with a bunch of managed funds with high expense ratio along with paying their annual advisory fees and i also invested in index funds on my own. the result was they didn't beat the index funds and the pimco all assets all authority fund that they sold me was a total drag. so i fired them and moved all of my money to vanguard and i started managing my own portfolio. expense ratio is one of the first thing i looked at.

dave ramsey ought to talk to more millionaires because i am sure many of them do consider expense ratio as an important factor and many of them also have mortgages and loans with low interest rate.

in other words, i do not think highly of dave ramsey and it's kind of troublesome that many folks listen to him as if he's a guru.....really, that's not rocket science!
Last edited by LeslieSmiley on Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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kimura king
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by kimura king »

JoMoney wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:24 pm Dave Ramsey gives paid endorsements for financial planners selling high-fee/commissioned funds to be in his 'network'.
Maybe there is some behavioral benefit for people who choose to go that route. I know some people enjoy having their money 'guy' or 'gal' to turn to, and seem happily oblivious to what it's actually costing them :confused :annoyed
yep. This is why I refuse to call index fund investing through a 2-4 fund portfolio a "lazy man portfolio." A lazy man portfolio is paying a bunch of fees to Northwestern Mutual, Edward Jones, or a "smartvestor pro" and blindly trusting them. That defines lazy. Too lazy to even think about your own money. The bogleheads approach is educated.

The worst is a lot of financial advisors have a reputation of preying on the elderly, who are not lazy but also not mentally intact enough or educated enough to handle investing.
Last edited by kimura king on Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Lee_WSP »

JoMoney wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:24 pm Dave Ramsey gives paid endorsements for financial planners selling high-fee/commissioned funds to be in his 'network'.
That's probably the long and short of it.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by LeslieSmiley »

kimura king wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:45 pm
JoMoney wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:24 pm Dave Ramsey gives paid endorsements for financial planners selling high-fee/commissioned funds to be in his 'network'.
Maybe there is some behavioral benefit for people who choose to go that route. I know some people enjoy having their money 'guy' or 'gal' to turn to, and seem happily oblivious to what it's actually costing them :confused :annoyed
yep. This is why I refuse to call index fund investing through a 2-4 fund portfolio a "lazy man portfolio." A lazy man portfolio is paying a bunch of fees to Northwestern Mutual, Edward Jones, or a "smartvestor pro" and blindly trusting them. That defines lazy. Too lazy to even think about your own money. The bogleheads approach is educated.

The worst is a lot of financial advisors have a reputation of preying on the elderly, who are not lazy but also not mentally intact enough or educated enough to handle investing. There are a lot of posts on here from guys or gals 70 plus that are financially very savvy doing the 3 fund portfolio. I find that impressive.

the thing is unless you have a portfolio that's in the upward of $10 millions, your so-called financial advisors in those banks/institutes are there to mainly sell you high fee funds that they receive commission (so much about fiduciary duties!) selling them. your portfolio is actually being managed by computer programs. i once asked them about "transfer in kind" and they said i could just liquidate my funds from my other brokerage firms and then transfer my fund to them so they can buy the funds with such fund. i said to them "isn't it true that by doing so would create a taxable events and that i would have to pay capital gain tax on the liquidation whereas transfer in kind would not?". their answer was "oh come on, you are going to have to pay tax one way or the other!". well, transfer in kind wouldn't generate commission because there's no purchase of new funds, and they are not paying the tax i am. so of course, why transfer in kind? *roll eyes*
Last edited by LeslieSmiley on Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Stinky »

mhalley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:51 pm I guess he at least has a cutoff where he would not buy a fund with over a 2%er, but commission plus 1 to 2% is ok. :oops:
I am sickened by Ramsey’s comment that 1-2% expense ratios are just fine.

Gotta feed those SmartVestor Pros! :twisted:
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by jibantik »

Well, if I could get 12% real returns and get kickbacks from ELP advisors like Dave Scamsey, I don't know that I would care about expense ratios either. I may even recommend front-end load funds :mrgreen:
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kimura king
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by kimura king »

Lets not forget their argument about weak returns with "passive investing." Total market index funds, such as FZROX or VTSAX, were up 31% last year. Spare me that argument.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by 02nz »

LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:56 pm the thing is unless you have a portfolio that's in the upward of $10 millions, your so-called financial advisors in those banks/institutes are there to mainly sell you high fee funds that they receive commission (so much about fiduciary duties!) selling them.
The current administration did away with the fiduciary rule. (That's not a political statement, just a fact.)
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by sohcahtoa »

Stinky wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:59 pm
I am sickened by Ramsey’s comment that 1-2% expense ratios are just fine.

Gotta feed those SmartVestor Pros! :twisted:
Between the downplay of high expense ratios, the repeated salesman turn of "We know that's confusing...but that's why you should trust our SmartVestor Pros!" and Hogan's uncomfortably deferential behavior, I am left feeling queasy.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by LeslieSmiley »

02nz wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:03 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:56 pm the thing is unless you have a portfolio that's in the upward of $10 millions, your so-called financial advisors in those banks/institutes are there to mainly sell you high fee funds that they receive commission (so much about fiduciary duties!) selling them.
The current administration did away with the fiduciary rule. (That's not a political statement, just a fact.)
that was before the current administration was in place, plus my point was that there is clearly a conflict of interest if the person who's recommending products to you is receiving kickbacks from the products that they are selling whether or not a fiduciary rule is in place.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by manatee2005 »

kimura king wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:02 pm Lets not forget their argument about weak returns with "passive investing." Total market index funds, such as FZROX or VTSAX, were up 31% last year. Spare me that argument.
FOCPX was up 39% last year. I’m ok with paying 0.8% fee for 26% more gains.
It’s up 11% YTD while S&P500 is up 0%. Those 0.8% fees don’t seem so bad.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by 02nz »

LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:11 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:03 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:56 pm the thing is unless you have a portfolio that's in the upward of $10 millions, your so-called financial advisors in those banks/institutes are there to mainly sell you high fee funds that they receive commission (so much about fiduciary duties!) selling them.
The current administration did away with the fiduciary rule. (That's not a political statement, just a fact.)
that was before the current administration was in place, plus my point was that there is clearly a conflict of interest if the person who's recommending products to you is receiving kickbacks from the products that they are selling whether or not a fiduciary rule is in place.
Yes, that was the whole point of the fiduciary rule - to require disclosures of such conflicts of interest, e.g., commissions. As it stands, Ramsey's advisors are not held to any fiduciary standard.
LeslieSmiley
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by LeslieSmiley »

02nz wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:27 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:11 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:03 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:56 pm the thing is unless you have a portfolio that's in the upward of $10 millions, your so-called financial advisors in those banks/institutes are there to mainly sell you high fee funds that they receive commission (so much about fiduciary duties!) selling them.
The current administration did away with the fiduciary rule. (That's not a political statement, just a fact.)
that was before the current administration was in place, plus my point was that there is clearly a conflict of interest if the person who's recommending products to you is receiving kickbacks from the products that they are selling whether or not a fiduciary rule is in place.
Yes, that was the whole point of the fiduciary rule - to require disclosures of such conflicts of interest, e.g., commissions. As it stands, Ramsey's advisors are not held to any fiduciary standard.
what i am saying is that even when the fiduciary rule was in place before the current administration did it away, the conflict of interest was always there. yes they had to disclose the facts that they earn commission and fees from the products that they sold to their customers by giving you fine print pamphlets and sending you emails with the fine print information, but the inherent mechanism poses a conflict of interest because the commission/kick back would always play a role as an incentive for the advisor to recommend those products, once again, fiduciary rule or not as i stated earlier.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by LeslieSmiley »

LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:37 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:27 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:11 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:03 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:56 pm the thing is unless you have a portfolio that's in the upward of $10 millions, your so-called financial advisors in those banks/institutes are there to mainly sell you high fee funds that they receive commission (so much about fiduciary duties!) selling them.
The current administration did away with the fiduciary rule. (That's not a political statement, just a fact.)
that was before the current administration was in place, plus my point was that there is clearly a conflict of interest if the person who's recommending products to you is receiving kickbacks from the products that they are selling whether or not a fiduciary rule is in place.
Yes, that was the whole point of the fiduciary rule - to require disclosures of such conflicts of interest, e.g., commissions. As it stands, Ramsey's advisors are not held to any fiduciary standard.
what i am saying is that even when the fiduciary rule was in place before the current administration did it away, the conflict of interest was always there. yes they had to disclose the facts that they earn commission and fees from the products that they sold to their customers by giving you fine print pamphlets and sending you emails with the fine print information, but the inherent mechanism poses a conflict of interest because the commission/kick back would always play a role as an incentive for the advisor to recommend those products, once again, fiduciary rule or not as i stated earlier. i was not and am not talking about ramsey because i was responding to someone who mentioned about financial advisors, so i was and am talking about brokerage financial advisors.
Last edited by LeslieSmiley on Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
02nz
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by 02nz »

LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:37 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:27 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:11 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:03 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:56 pm the thing is unless you have a portfolio that's in the upward of $10 millions, your so-called financial advisors in those banks/institutes are there to mainly sell you high fee funds that they receive commission (so much about fiduciary duties!) selling them.
The current administration did away with the fiduciary rule. (That's not a political statement, just a fact.)
that was before the current administration was in place, plus my point was that there is clearly a conflict of interest if the person who's recommending products to you is receiving kickbacks from the products that they are selling whether or not a fiduciary rule is in place.
Yes, that was the whole point of the fiduciary rule - to require disclosures of such conflicts of interest, e.g., commissions. As it stands, Ramsey's advisors are not held to any fiduciary standard.
what i am saying is that even when the fiduciary rule was in place before the current administration did it away, the conflict of interest was always there. yes they had to disclose the facts that they earn commission and fees from the products that they sold to their customers by giving you fine print pamphlets and sending you emails with the fine print information, but the inherent mechanism poses a conflict of interest because the commission/kick back would always play a role as an incentive for the advisor to recommend those products, once again, fiduciary rule or not as i stated earlier.
The fiduciary rule was tied up in delays and court challenges and was never implemented, so we won't know whether it would've made a difference in reducing conflicts of interest. It seems obvious to me that the first step to reducing such conflicts is disclosure.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by manatee2005 »

LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:39 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:37 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:27 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:11 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:03 pm

The current administration did away with the fiduciary rule. (That's not a political statement, just a fact.)
that was before the current administration was in place, plus my point was that there is clearly a conflict of interest if the person who's recommending products to you is receiving kickbacks from the products that they are selling whether or not a fiduciary rule is in place.
Yes, that was the whole point of the fiduciary rule - to require disclosures of such conflicts of interest, e.g., commissions. As it stands, Ramsey's advisors are not held to any fiduciary standard.
what i am saying is that even when the fiduciary rule was in place before the current administration did it away, the conflict of interest was always there. yes they had to disclose the facts that they earn commission and fees from the products that they sold to their customers by giving you fine print pamphlets and sending you emails with the fine print information, but the inherent mechanism poses a conflict of interest because the commission/kick back would always play a role as an incentive for the advisor to recommend those products, once again, fiduciary rule or not as i stated earlier. i was not and am not talking about ramsey because i was responding to someone who mentioned about financial advisors, so i was and am talking about brokerage financial advisors.
The rule was never in place. It was removed before it ever took effect.
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kimura king
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by kimura king »

manatee2005 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:18 pm
kimura king wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:02 pm Lets not forget their argument about weak returns with "passive investing." Total market index funds, such as FZROX or VTSAX, were up 31% last year. Spare me that argument.
FOCPX was up 39% last year. I’m ok with paying 0.8% fee for 26% more gains.
It’s up 11% YTD while S&P500 is up 0%. Those 0.8% fees don’t seem so bad.
That fund looks good now, a good outlier. BTW it is up 6.9% this year, not 11% ytd, unless I missed something. Past performance does not equal future returns, do you believe that? Or just think this fund will win at all times over time and if you stay in it you will beat vtsax, fzrox, etc over 10-30 years? That is actually something Dave Ramsey believes a lot in, past performance. But we are talking about playing the odds in the future, which makes the past irrelevant. If past performance mattered no one would invest in international. Or bonds, a lot of stocks, or keep cash since the history on all of those is not impressive. I only posted that it was up 31% last year, not to say it is the most aggressive, but to show that it is aggressive enough. A lot of mutual funds didn't come close to 31% last year, so I want to be spared the weak returns argument.

Ultimately, a good savings rate in the 3 fund portfolio is the most reliable bet I have seen based on my research.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by lab945 »

Compare fidelity otc. To QQQ, if growth fund is what you want.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by LeslieSmiley »

manatee2005 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:42 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:39 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:37 pm
02nz wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:27 pm
LeslieSmiley wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:11 pm

that was before the current administration was in place, plus my point was that there is clearly a conflict of interest if the person who's recommending products to you is receiving kickbacks from the products that they are selling whether or not a fiduciary rule is in place.
Yes, that was the whole point of the fiduciary rule - to require disclosures of such conflicts of interest, e.g., commissions. As it stands, Ramsey's advisors are not held to any fiduciary standard.
what i am saying is that even when the fiduciary rule was in place before the current administration did it away, the conflict of interest was always there. yes they had to disclose the facts that they earn commission and fees from the products that they sold to their customers by giving you fine print pamphlets and sending you emails with the fine print information, but the inherent mechanism poses a conflict of interest because the commission/kick back would always play a role as an incentive for the advisor to recommend those products, once again, fiduciary rule or not as i stated earlier. i was not and am not talking about ramsey because i was responding to someone who mentioned about financial advisors, so i was and am talking about brokerage financial advisors.
The rule was never in place. It was removed before it ever took effect.
ok thanks for the information. my point still stands in regards to the conflict of interest and i repeatedly stated that whether or not a fiduciary rule is in place. in other words, it doesn't matter if there is a fiduciary rule, the conflict of interest exists when financial advisors recommend funds that they receive kickback from.
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1789
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by 1789 »

manatee2005 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:18 pm
kimura king wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:02 pm Lets not forget their argument about weak returns with "passive investing." Total market index funds, such as FZROX or VTSAX, were up 31% last year. Spare me that argument.
FOCPX was up 39% last year. I’m ok with paying 0.8% fee for 26% more gains.
It’s up 11% YTD while S&P500 is up 0%. Those 0.8% fees don’t seem so bad.
Yes but you picked the wrong fund.

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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by tesuzuki2002 »

kimura king wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:30 pm
tesuzuki2002 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:06 pm I don't like to spend thousands and thousands on management fees... when essentially their management is setup on autopilot anyway.. So yeah.. I would go for Low ERs...

when your assets are in the millions and you notice you are paying out $20 / 30 / $40,000 in ERs annually... You might start to follow it better.... that could buy a nice car EVERY YEAR!
yes, I can see it that way, but really I don't worry too much about multi-millionaires or a guy like Dave Ramsey that owns a paid like 75 million cash for his office, instead, I worry about normal people paying a 1-2% fee. That is just getting ripped off. Ripping off a guy worth 10 mil is a lot different than ripping off a guy worth 100k.

I completely understand your view and agree. A 10Mil guy can easily afford to pay that 1-2% and be fine... the $100K guy is barely going to get buy.. he will need eve :D ry bit of that 1-2 %.

cheers!
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Stinky »

1789 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:59 pm
manatee2005 wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:18 pm
kimura king wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:02 pm Lets not forget their argument about weak returns with "passive investing." Total market index funds, such as FZROX or VTSAX, were up 31% last year. Spare me that argument.
FOCPX was up 39% last year. I’m ok with paying 0.8% fee for 26% more gains.
It’s up 11% YTD while S&P500 is up 0%. Those 0.8% fees don’t seem so bad.
Yes but you picked the wrong fund.

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... ion3_3=100
Yep, it’s pretty easy to pick out a fund that definitely performed well in the past.

Not so easy to pick a fund that definitely will perform well in the future.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Forester »

Everyone in this thread is over complicating the issue; you just have to own good growth funds which deliver 12% a year :o
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

If Dave wants to talk to me, I'm happy to do so. Based on money invested, I'm a multi-millionaire (not a brag, just a fact) and I feel that even 0.1% is an un-necessary rip off fee. So there ya go. A millionaire saying that fees absolutely matter.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by RadAudit »

Forester wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 6:38 am Everyone in this thread is over complicating the issue; you just have to own good growth funds which deliver 12% a year :o
Will seemed to have found the answer a few years ago.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by The Broz »

In fairness - you need to think about the audience that he is serving. Listen to the trainwreck calls of people who have done horrible things with their lives and their money. Dave gives them a strategy to get out of debt and invest to start building wealth. Take his advice on credit cards as an example. Obviously for those of us who have self control and can pay the bills off each month, there is nothing wrong with credit cards. But he is vehemently against them, as you can tell many callers simply cannot control themselves. The money in their pockets burns them up, and they can't say no to buying something that the TV told them to. For these people, they could do worse (and have) by following his advice - even the investment advice. For those of us who have done our homework (some more than others, and I am hardly the most educated one here), we know that you can do better by doing X Y and Z.
In other words, I think that just because he says some things that are good and helpful to many people, it does not mean that everything he says should be trusted without scrutiny. Conversely you can disagree with people on certain topics but that does not mean they are evil to the core.
BTW - I am firmly in the camp of paying off the mortgage. It makes no sense to me to borrow on your house to play in the market. We have seen how easily valuations plummet. If you are able to borrow money at a lower interest rate and get a guaranteed return that is greater, fine. But saying that "my mutual funds made more than that" does not cut it for me. Playing with fire results in burns. But as the kiddies say "you do you".
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Helo80 »

Oh yay, another Dave Ramsey bash thread!
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Helo80 »

The Broz wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:45 am In fairness - you need to think about the audience that he is serving. Listen to the trainwreck calls of people who have done horrible things with their lives and their money. Dave gives them a strategy to get out of debt and invest to start building wealth.

That's how I view it. The sanctimony on BHs can be a bit much at times.

Money and debt to some people is like alcohol in some peoples hands.... it's easy to say, "just have one" or "drink responsibly", but substance abuse and financial illiteracy are real issues.

I can cast a fishing line here and find plenty of people with nest eggs into the 7-digits and incomes well above $100k..... Some of you all seem to be unable to empathize with anybody in Dave's audience. The amount of people Dave reaches every day --- if just 1 or 2% of that audience flooded these forums, y'all would likely seek refuge elsewhere, because there would just be too many people asking questions and we'd need like 10x LadyGeek's running moderation. (also, replying to me with "I grew up poor" and this that and the other.... that means nothing to me. I'm sure some of y'all interact with people that earn the same, if not more, than you do... and some of these people are as equally financially illiterate as Dave's audience)

Yes, Dave's investing advice is about 80-90% bunk and can be done better... but tbh --- many people are fearful of the stock market and politicians/media and even Vanguard.com are intimidating. For us, signing onto Vanguard.com and putting $1k, $10k, $100k or even $1 million in VTSAX is as mindless as turning on the TV.... not everybody has that financial acumen and discipline.

So.... bash away.... Surprisingly, I'm not one that has a bleeding heart.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Helo80 »

One more note --- I think Dave has even acknowledged several times, subtlety, that his snowball debt strategy is not mathematically the most efficient way to pay down debt and save every penny. I think Suze Orrman does the Avalanche debt model where debt is paid down from highest to lowest interest rate. However, Dave says that his research shows that people are more inclined to complete their debt payoffs on snowball...

If any of you BHs have a better business model than Dave, please compete! I think White Coat Investor is one of the few on here that is running financial literacy services on the side. We have a few columnists as well. I guess Taylor has written a book or two on BH philosophy.

But, 99.9% of us are likely not seeing 1 cent from our contributions here, nor is this an backhanded way of suggesting we should be compensated for our contributions.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Xrayman69 »

JoMoney wrote: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:24 pm Dave Ramsey gives paid endorsements for financial planners selling high-fee/commissioned funds to be in his 'network'.
Maybe there is some behavioral benefit for people who choose to go that route. I know some people enjoy having their money 'guy' or 'gal' to turn to, and seem happily oblivious to what it's actually costing them :confused :annoyed
Im shocked there is gambling in this establishment. (Sarcasm of course)
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by The Broz »

Helo80 wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:00 am
The Broz wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 7:45 am In fairness - you need to think about the audience that he is serving. Listen to the trainwreck calls of people who have done horrible things with their lives and their money. Dave gives them a strategy to get out of debt and invest to start building wealth.

That's how I view it. The sanctimony on BHs can be a bit much at times.

Money and debt to some people is like alcohol in some peoples hands.... it's easy to say, "just have one" or "drink responsibly", but substance abuse and financial illiteracy are real issues.

I can cast a fishing line here and find plenty of people with nest eggs into the 7-digits and incomes well above $100k..... Some of you all seem to be unable to empathize with anybody in Dave's audience. The amount of people Dave reaches every day --- if just 1 or 2% of that audience flooded these forums, y'all would likely seek refuge elsewhere, because there would just be too many people asking questions and we'd need like 10x LadyGeek's running moderation. (also, replying to me with "I grew up poor" and this that and the other.... that means nothing to me. I'm sure some of y'all interact with people that earn the same, if not more, than you do... and some of these people are as equally financially illiterate as Dave's audience)

Yes, Dave's investing advice is about 80-90% bunk and can be done better... but tbh --- many people are fearful of the stock market and politicians/media and even Vanguard.com are intimidating. For us, signing onto Vanguard.com and putting $1k, $10k, $100k or even $1 million in VTSAX is as mindless as turning on the TV.... not everybody has that financial acumen and discipline.

So.... bash away.... Surprisingly, I'm not one that has a bleeding heart.
Well said. For some reason, you made me think of the world of workouts, gyms, bodybuilding, etc. This forum is filled with workout warriors, bodybuilders, and that level of acumen. If Dave is helping obese people to simply get to the gym and to understand that donuts are not good for you, that cannot be an entirely bad thing. Yeah - he is probably selling protein bars laced with all kinds of crap. You got me there. But we cannot all be level 5 vegans at the flip of a switch.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by The Broz »

Helo80 wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:29 am One more note --- I think Dave has even acknowledged several times, subtlety, that his snowball debt strategy is not mathematically the most efficient way to pay down debt and save every penny. I think Suze Orrman does the Avalanche debt model where debt is paid down from highest to lowest interest rate. However, Dave says that his research shows that people are more inclined to complete their debt payoffs on snowball...
Correct - this goes back to the people that he is speaking to. The reason he suggests this strategy is because people need to feel like they are making progress. If the debt is too huge, it is very easy to not bother. But if you feel like you are making progress, you will stick with it.

He constantly tells people that they are welcome to do their own plan, and points to where that plan has gotten them. It is hard to argue with that when the caller is in a complete mess.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Vanguard Fan 1367 »

I am glad I discovered John Bogle in 2014. I appreciate John's books explaining the impact of fees on your investment return. Before reading The John Bogle Reader I didn't think much about a 1% expense ratio plus a 1% assets under management fee. in exchange for good advice I thought that loads might be ok also.

Larry Burkett helped me get out of debt and I appreciate Dave Ramsey's emphasis on debt free living. I think living below your means is great advice.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by Stinky »

Helo80 wrote: Tue Jun 09, 2020 8:29 am
If any of you BHs have a better business model than Dave, please compete!
I think that Dave Ramsey should direct folks to invest with Edward Jones. :twisted:

That would allow Bogleheads to vent in one series of threads instead of two.....
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by 17outs »

I'll say something controversial, but likely truthful. Dave Ramsey has done for many in personal finance what Bogle did for investing. Do I have your attention now? Haha.

Srsly though I truly believe that his plan has helped hundreds of thousands if not millions get out of debt. People that needed an easy to follow guide. I hate debt as much as he does, but I just don't hate credit cards as much as he does. I believe in the paid off mortgage and that it provides something even though it may not have been the better investment.

And that is where it ends. His mentality of investing 100% into 4 high fee, growth mutual funds and no bonds for all people is just simply horrible and dangerous advice. Chris Hogan, another program on his power hour follows same but caters more to the folks who are debt free. Lots of valuable info there too, but also sketch investing. I actually believe that Chris Hogan doesn't follow Dave investing 100%.

The irony in this thread for me is that Dave Ramsey followers and Bogleheads are very similar in many ways. The are both very passionate about their stance and have very little empathy for other views. The only difference is credit cards vs market timing or factor investing ;-). You can get booted from the DR forums for saying you use credit cards regularly.
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Re: Dave Ramsey mentioned bogleheads today

Post by GoldenFinch »

Paying higher expense ratios than you have to is like choosing to throw some of your money out the car window. Dave Ramsey is at the point where he could still make a ton of money without promoting non-index funds, but he chooses not to go that route.
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