Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
Post Reply
Topic Author
FinKnight19
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:46 pm

Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by FinKnight19 »

https://www.driverloaninvestorsclub.com/

Anybody have any experience investing with these guys?

It seems their business model is Cash Advance to gig workers in transportation and delivery space.

They are promising 15% APY with FDIC and SEC endorsements

I wonder if they are legit and how to conduct due diligence on them before investing.

Can be a viable option for passive income if not a scam

Would love to hear peoples opinions and ways to conduct background check before investing.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 66363
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by LadyGeek »

Welcome! First, the SEC never endorses anything.

The link on the page footer is just a generic link to the SEC's home page.

From the Frequently Asked Questions
...Please note that if you miss one of your pre-authorized daily deposits your investment’s future value or projected balance will change once the term is met.

...A k1-1040 form is used to report interest income earned to the Internal Revenue Service (IRS).
Missing a deposit is a big red flag. They're depending on contributions to keep the accounts solvent.

Aside from the incorrect spelling (it's IRS Form 1040 Schedule K-1), the fact that you need a K-1 is another big red flag. Those forms are for partnership interest and are incredibly difficult to fill out correctly.

From the Terms of Use Agreement
The principal and accrued interest on your balances will be FDIC-insured up to $500,000. Daily Rate Rewards are only covered by FDIC insurance until they are aggregated with your principal balance of your DRIVERLOAN INVESTORS CLUB Account at the end of each calendar month. If you have funds at a Participating Bank outside of your DRIVERLOAN INVESTORS CLUB Account, this may impact the availability of FDIC insurance at such institution. For example, if your deposits in a Participating Bank exceed $250,000, the excess funds are not covered by the FDIC deposit insurance.
The fact that they tie your account to bank deposits means these are not investments in the manner of a stock or bond.

Also, the continual use of "FDIC-insured" throughout the page means they're using the FDIC name to sell the product. That's another red flag.

What's a good alternative? See the wiki: Getting started
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
Topic Author
FinKnight19
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:46 pm

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by FinKnight19 »

Thanks for the quick reply and assessment.
It definitely does look too good to be true.
SEC link is indeed generic and have have run into the issues with K1 when investing in MLPs.
Daily deposits seem to be an optional feature which may or may not be availed.
FDIC risk can be managed if total of personal and investment deposits stay below the insurance amount threshold.

They are charging borrowers 5% verification fee + 440% APR so maybe they can stay solvent & turn a profit if they run a tight ship and manage their inflows and outflows well.

Might make a small token investment to test out the platform.
User avatar
sergeant
Posts: 1612
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 11:13 pm
Location: The Golden State

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by sergeant »

FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:43 pm Thanks for the quick reply and assessment.
It definitely does look too good to be true.
SEC link is indeed generic and have have run into the issues with K1 when investing in MLPs.
Daily deposits seem to be an optional feature which may or may not be availed.
FDIC risk can be managed if total of personal and investment deposits stay below the insurance amount threshold.

They are charging borrowers 5% verification fee + 440% APR so maybe they can stay solvent & turn a profit if they run a tight ship and manage their inflows and outflows well.

Might make a small token investment to test out the platform.
Let us know how it goes.
AA- 20+ Years of Expenses Fixed Income/The remainder in Equities.
retired@50
Posts: 3466
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:36 pm
Location: Living in the U.S.A.

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by retired@50 »

FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:43 pm ...
It definitely does look too good to be true.
...
Wow. :shock: You and I have very different opinions about what looks too good to be true. This looks too horrible to consider in my book.

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
Topic Author
FinKnight19
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:46 pm

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by FinKnight19 »

sergeant wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:18 pm
FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:43 pm Thanks for the quick reply and assessment.
It definitely does look too good to be true.
SEC link is indeed generic and have have run into the issues with K1 when investing in MLPs.
Daily deposits seem to be an optional feature which may or may not be availed.
FDIC risk can be managed if total of personal and investment deposits stay below the insurance amount threshold.

They are charging borrowers 5% verification fee + 440% APR so maybe they can stay solvent & turn a profit if they run a tight ship and manage their inflows and outflows well.

Might make a small token investment to test out the platform.
Let us know how it goes.
Will post results for smallest term.
Topic Author
FinKnight19
Posts: 4
Joined: Mon Feb 18, 2019 3:46 pm

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by FinKnight19 »

retired@50 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:22 pm
FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:43 pm ...
It definitely does look too good to be true.
...
Wow. :shock: You and I have very different opinions about what looks too good to be true. This looks too horrible to consider in my book.

Regards,
A Thin line separates too good and too horrible. My spidey sense is definitely tingling. Figure taking a chance with shortest term(3 months) and smallest investment($50) is worth the curiosity.
retired@50
Posts: 3466
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:36 pm
Location: Living in the U.S.A.

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by retired@50 »

FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:34 pm
retired@50 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:22 pm
FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:43 pm ...
It definitely does look too good to be true.
...
Wow. :shock: You and I have very different opinions about what looks too good to be true. This looks too horrible to consider in my book.

Regards,
A Thin line separates too good and too horrible. My spidey sense is definitely tingling. Figure taking a chance with shortest term(3 months) and smallest investment($50) is worth the curiosity.
Are you really willing to complicate your income tax returns with a K-1 for a $50 investment? Again, Wow. :shock:

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
typical.investor
Posts: 2291
Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by typical.investor »

FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 12:20 pm
They are promising 15% APY with FDIC and SEC endorsements
It doesn't not appear to be FDIC insured. I think it's intentionally misleading. Deceptively misleading.

It's probably true that funds are FDIC insured before going out at loans when the money is in the bank. I believe they are only talking about that period.
Funds deposited through our platform are FDIC-insured as they are placed into member financial institutions.
Once that money has been placed into someone's account (i.e. becomes an investment), I don't believe your funds are insured anymore, but that you must rely on DriverLoan USA.
Investments are 100% secured and guaranteed by DriverLoan USA. A Certificate of Investment will be provided to every investor as proof of having an investment account.
Certificate of Investments are simply not FDIC Certificated of Deposit.

Basically, they are being deceptive I believe, and trying to give a false impression.
User avatar
Nate79
Posts: 6421
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2016 6:24 pm
Location: Delaware

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by Nate79 »

Scam? Ponzi scheme?
dukeblue219
Posts: 837
Joined: Fri Jan 29, 2016 12:40 pm

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by dukeblue219 »

You're loaning money to people desperate enough to accept a 440% APR loan, and in exchange you get 15% return?

I'd feel slimy doing this even if it wasn't dangerously close to a scam.
Dottie57
Posts: 9184
Joined: Thu May 19, 2016 5:43 pm
Location: Earth Northern Hemisphere

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by Dottie57 »

retired@50 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:22 pm
FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:43 pm ...
It definitely does look too good to be true.
...
Wow. :shock: You and I have very different opinions about what looks too good to be true. This looks too horrible to consider in my book.

Regards,
+1000
rchmx1
Posts: 113
Joined: Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:38 pm

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by rchmx1 »

dukeblue219 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 7:36 am You're loaning money to people desperate enough to accept a 440% APR loan, and in exchange you get 15% return?

I'd feel slimy doing this even if it wasn't dangerously close to a scam.
Post of the thread!
User avatar
David Jay
Posts: 9386
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:54 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by David Jay »

Here is your background check:
FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 12:20 pm...with FDIC and SEC endorsements
People showed you that they are not FDIC insured and that they are not SEC endorsed.
FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:34 pmFigure taking a chance with shortest term(3 months) and smallest investment($50) is worth the curiosity.
This I do not understand. They lie to you and you still want to give it a try.

But they probably only lie about the unimportant things like the information on their home page. I’m sure they are trustworthy in every other way... :oops:
Last edited by David Jay on Mon May 25, 2020 2:22 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius
MarkBarb
Posts: 492
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 11:59 am

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by MarkBarb »

Oh my gosh. I hate to be so blunt, but don't make a greedy mistake. If you think this is legit, you need to watch a lot more American Greed.

Look at the red flags:
The Annual Percentage Yield (APY) is fixed and will not change at any time before or after the account is opened.
Nobody guarantees a 15% return. That's insane in normal markets and laughable in today's market. With all of the smart money out there, why would these guys pay people off of the streets 15% guaranteed when they could literally get billions from hedge funds if they could produce low risk results anywhere close to that?
Funds deposited through our platform are FDIC-insured as they are placed into member financial institutions.
What does that even mean? Your investment is or is not FDIC insured. What does "as they are placed" mean?
Investments are 100% secured and guaranteed by DriverLoan USA.
Bernie Maddoff would blush if he tried to say something like this.

I don't know what you think you'll gain by using a test investment. Ponzi schemes appear to work until they suddenly don't. Maybe you put your $50 in and get your 15% return. More likely they just keep up the pressure to stay invested and give you fake paper returns or "Certificates of Investment." What a joke.

I hate to be harsh, but this thing is an obvious scam. Nobody guarantees 15% returns in a market where safe investments are returning 2%. It just doesn't happen. These people are looking for greedy fools that they can fleece. If you doubt me, for $50 I will send you a certificate guaranteeing that this investment is a scam.
Last edited by MarkBarb on Mon May 25, 2020 6:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
cherijoh
Posts: 6591
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 4:49 pm
Location: Charlotte NC

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by cherijoh »

FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:43 pm Thanks for the quick reply and assessment.
It definitely does look too good to be true.
SEC link is indeed generic and have have run into the issues with K1 when investing in MLPs.
Daily deposits seem to be an optional feature which may or may not be availed.
FDIC risk can be managed if total of personal and investment deposits stay below the insurance amount threshold.

They are charging borrowers 5% verification fee + 440% APR so maybe they can stay solvent & turn a profit if they run a tight ship and manage their inflows and outflows well.

Might make a small token investment to test out the platform.
WHY? What would it tell you? If it isn't an outright scam, a "token investment" doesn't tell you whether their business model is valid or scalable. Some (most?) of the P2P lending apps were legitimate (i.e., not Ponzi schemes) but as soon as the Great Recession deepened default rates shot up and unless you were lucky, you got no where near advertised rates of returns after fees and defaulted loans were taken into account. On a risk-adjusted return basis you would have been better off in a combination of equity & bond index funds.

You may want to read this Boglehead discussion on P2P lending.
User avatar
David Jay
Posts: 9386
Joined: Mon Mar 30, 2015 5:54 am
Location: Michigan

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by David Jay »

David Jay wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 1:34 pmBut they probably only lie about the unimportant things like the information on their home page. I’m sure they are trustworthy in every other way... :oops:
They also say on their home page that they have been in business for (3) years but their website was registered on March 3, 2020.

There seems to be no reference on the web to this company. No reviews, no questions, no nothing. I’m wondering, how you (FinKnight19) came across this company?
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius
rotorhead
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:59 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by rotorhead »

FinKnight19,

I see by your bio you've been a Boglehead little over a year, but this is your first post. If you have been reading any of the discussions on this forum, I'm surprised that you would even post such a question about such a dubious investment.

Forgive my bluntness, but the old adage of "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably isn't" certainly fits this scheme. People like Bernie Madoff love you curious types.

Get yourself a nice index fund, and be happy.
CardioMD
Posts: 169
Joined: Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:40 am

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by CardioMD »

It’s amazing how these are being posted with some regularity. Good luck. You’re going to need it.
“The stock market is a giant distraction from the business of investing.” -Jack Bogle
User avatar
unclescrooge
Posts: 5335
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:00 pm

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by unclescrooge »

dukeblue219 wrote: Sun May 24, 2020 7:36 am You're loaning money to people desperate enough to accept a 440% APR loan, and in exchange you get 15% return?

I'd feel slimy doing this even if it wasn't dangerously close to a scam.
How is this usury not illegal?
I would not want to ever be associated with any such enterprise.
softwaregeek
Posts: 565
Joined: Wed May 08, 2019 8:59 pm

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by softwaregeek »

Maybe someone can help me here, because I am really, really *struggling* to understand this.

Why aren't these guys going big and selling out to big wall street money instead of going to retail investors for $50 bucks a throw?

Is making payday loans to Uber drivers safe in a pandemic?

How are these loans secured?

Do we know the loans exist?

Why is the company's mailing address a co-working space in a co working space/mail drop?

Why are the executives not listed on the website?

Why are they not listed with the Florida secretary of state as a registered business?

Will they send me a full color certificate of investment?

Where do I send the check?
softwaregeek
Posts: 565
Joined: Wed May 08, 2019 8:59 pm

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by softwaregeek »

I should add, I was on far more legit lending sites than this. I was early on Prosper.com, one of the P2P loan platforms. It was definitely real, but I think I probably broke even over four years, was nightmarish for tax reporting purposes, and illiquid. Fortunately, I didn't invest too high a percentage of my net worth.

Lending club is still around as well, but the returns on seasoned loans haven't been massive. And they are highly economically sensitive, which means you are probably investing at the worst time. Unlike stocks, you have to time the market with P2P lending. And returns are low enough that it's not a great business in general, which is why professional lenders like banks are highly leveraged with deposits, which you can't do yourself.
pkcrafter
Posts: 14328
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:19 pm
Location: CA
Contact:

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by pkcrafter »

I found some other DriverLoan links, but they didn’t work.

Here’s something from the op link.


Contact us: support@driverloaninvestorsclub.com
DriverLoan Investors Club breaks the financial paradigms created by traditional banks where savings accounts pay an interest that is diluted against annual inflation. DriverLoan Investors Club has created a mixed product between savings and investment with the reliability that there are no intermediaries promising returns on products or companies that they have no control of. DriverLoan Investors Club guarantees the investment, since it is a private fund that introduces monetary resources into the Cash Advance industry utilizing a new and unique system in the thriving technological platforms such as Uber, Lyft and Postmates. DriverLoan Investors Club created a fusion between a savings system and an investment product with the typical flexibility of a savings program but with the high performance of an optimal investment product. DriverLoan Investors Club offers the flexibility to start saving and investing with as little as $50 dollars with a 15% APY (Annual Percentage Yield). DriverLoan Investors Club will not charge any fees corresponding to account maintenance or online access. The platform is 100% free to use by qualified investors. The initial investment term and daily/additional deposits is determined by the investor with a minimum term of 90 days in order to obtain an interest. Total/partial funds can be withdrawn at any time from an investors account without any penalties or fees. Investments are 100% guaranteed by DriverLoan Investors Club because the funds deposited by investors are used in a successful Cash Advance model based on a thriving ride share market such as Uber and Lyft. All cash advance applications serviced through DriverLoan are filtered by a unique State-Of-The-Art loan processing system that uses artificial intelligence (AI) to generate a behavioral model that evaluates the applicant’s financial capacity ultimately reducing default by 98%. This is what allows DriverLoan Investors Club to guarantee a 15% APY (Annual Percentage Yield).
When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 66363
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by LadyGeek »

pkcrafter wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 7:41 pm ...All cash advance applications serviced through DriverLoan are filtered by a unique State-Of-The-Art loan processing system that uses artificial intelligence (AI) to generate a behavioral model that evaluates the applicant’s financial capacity ultimately reducing default by 98%.
This is all I could thing of: "Turbo Encabulator" the Original

(For engineers: A classic.)
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
fatgeorge
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:38 pm

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by fatgeorge »

Honestly this looks like a joke, or maybe a "social experiment" run by some students around here. To me, it defies all the logic. It totally looks like a scam, but it doesn't even promise your typical scam payoffs. Who would be the scam target here? A poor soul who'd be willing to "invest" his last $100 into this kind of scam? Those would do, but those people are not going to be excited to make $15 a year. To motivate those, scammers typically offer triple digit yearly returns. Even for "trial" folks this isn't gonna work. Like, OP said he's willing to risk $50 - really, you'd bother to jump through hoops in hope to "earn" taxable $7.50 after a year?
retired@50
Posts: 3466
Joined: Tue Oct 01, 2019 2:36 pm
Location: Living in the U.S.A.

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by retired@50 »

LadyGeek wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 8:44 pm
pkcrafter wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 7:41 pm ...All cash advance applications serviced through DriverLoan are filtered by a unique State-Of-The-Art loan processing system that uses artificial intelligence (AI) to generate a behavioral model that evaluates the applicant’s financial capacity ultimately reducing default by 98%.
This is all I could thing of: "Turbo Encabulator" the Original

(For engineers: A classic.)
A great video.
In case you didn't know, he's pointing to a cross-sectional view of a torque converter within an automatic transmission.

Regards,
This is one person's opinion. Nothing more.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 66363
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by LadyGeek »

^^^ Thanks, I didn't know that. My background is electrical (software, hardware, etc.), not mechanical.

My point is that the paragraph (found at the bottom of the page) is nothing but weasel words. Yes, there's some legit stuff. But, it's packed with terms you'd see when promoting a product that has nothing under the hood (or you want to hide something).

There's a similar situation in retirement planning. Look for a term called "Monte Carlo" method. That's a legitimate statistical approach, but it doesn't tell you anything about the underlying model. Everyone uses the term, but the devil is in the details.

In this case, there's nothing under the hood.
=============

To the engineers: "Turbo Encabulator" is required viewing. If you want to show how "complicated" engineering can be to someone who doesn't know the profession, use this video. Hilarious to us, a high "wow factor" to others.

To everyone else, the video is analogous to this classic: Blue Line Jumps 11 Percent
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
rotorhead
Posts: 487
Joined: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:59 pm
Location: Florida

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by rotorhead »

Loved the Turbo Encabulator video! What a hoot!

Sounds a lot like some of the free lunch financial presentations being touted here in South Florida during snowbird season. 8-)
softwaregeek
Posts: 565
Joined: Wed May 08, 2019 8:59 pm

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by softwaregeek »

fatgeorge wrote: Mon May 25, 2020 11:27 pm Honestly this looks like a joke, or maybe a "social experiment" run by some students around here. To me, it defies all the logic. It totally looks like a scam, but it doesn't even promise your typical scam payoffs. Who would be the scam target here? A poor soul who'd be willing to "invest" his last $100 into this kind of scam? Those would do, but those people are not going to be excited to make $15 a year. To motivate those, scammers typically offer triple digit yearly returns. Even for "trial" folks this isn't gonna work. Like, OP said he's willing to risk $50 - really, you'd bother to jump through hoops in hope to "earn" taxable $7.50 after a year?

All those folks who are reaching for yield. Retirees who need 4 or 5 percent to maintain their lifestyle but can’t get it today, I would guess they are pretty desperate.
fatgeorge
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 2:38 pm

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by fatgeorge »

softwaregeek wrote: Tue May 26, 2020 9:50 am All those folks who are reaching for yield. Retirees who need 4 or 5 percent to maintain their lifestyle but can’t get it today, I would guess they are pretty desperate.
None of those folks would "invest" in a snake oil company like that. There are a lot of scammers promoting much higher interest, so folks chasing those would run out of money long time ago.
Last edited by fatgeorge on Fri May 29, 2020 10:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
willthrill81
Posts: 20909
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:17 pm
Location: USA

Re: Has anybody heard of DriverLoan Investor Club?

Post by willthrill81 »

retired@50 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:38 pm
FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:34 pm
retired@50 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 6:22 pm
FinKnight19 wrote: Sat May 23, 2020 1:43 pm ...
It definitely does look too good to be true.
...
Wow. :shock: You and I have very different opinions about what looks too good to be true. This looks too horrible to consider in my book.

Regards,
A Thin line separates too good and too horrible. My spidey sense is definitely tingling. Figure taking a chance with shortest term(3 months) and smallest investment($50) is worth the curiosity.
Are you really willing to complicate your income tax returns with a K-1 for a $50 investment? Again, Wow. :shock:

Regards,
One of the reasons I exited the peer-to-peer lending space was because the complications to our tax return were abhorrent.
“It's a dangerous business, Frodo, going out your door. You step onto the road, and if you don't keep your feet, there's no knowing where you might be swept off to.” J.R.R. Tolkien,The Lord of the Rings
Post Reply