Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

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ThisTooShallPAss
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Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by ThisTooShallPAss » Tue May 19, 2020 6:53 pm

Guys,

Can you please shed some light if it is worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

The reason I went with these three were to get greater value tilt and the respective exposure it provides but now re-thinking given the low expense ratio of VSS (0.11%) vs (0.58%, 0.39%, 0.63%).

Taxable Equity Portfolio (50 % US and 50 % Intl) all index ETFs. Listing only Intl below as this relates to my question.

VEA - 12% (Large Blend)
EFV - 10% (Large Value)

FNDC - 11% (Mid/Small - Blend)
DLS - 11% (Mid/Small - Value)
DGS - 6% (Diversified EM but tilted towards mid/small)

Equity Portfolio of ROTH and IRA has the same ETFs but 10% each.

Appreciate your help.

typical.investor
Posts: 1897
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by typical.investor » Tue May 19, 2020 7:01 pm

ThisTooShallPAss wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:53 pm
Guys,

Can you please shed some light if it is worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

The reason I went with these three were to get greater value tilt and the respective exposure it provides but now re-thinking given the low expense ratio of VSS (0.11%) vs (0.58%, 0.39%, 0.63%).
It's not recommended to abandon a value tilt due to a run of bad performance. It's expected that will happen. That is you motivation I suspect as after all, you wouldn't be reexamining the ERs if value had outperformed.

livesoft
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by livesoft » Tue May 19, 2020 7:08 pm

Yes, it is worth it. I own VSS in a big way and still some DGS in a bad way.
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Topic Author
ThisTooShallPAss
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by ThisTooShallPAss » Tue May 19, 2020 7:46 pm

typical.investor wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:01 pm
ThisTooShallPAss wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:53 pm
Guys,

Can you please shed some light if it is worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

The reason I went with these three were to get greater value tilt and the respective exposure it provides but now re-thinking given the low expense ratio of VSS (0.11%) vs (0.58%, 0.39%, 0.63%).
It's not recommended to abandon a value tilt due to a run of bad performance. It's expected that will happen. That is you motivation I suspect as after all, you wouldn't be reexamining the ERs if value had outperformed.
Consolidation is the primary motivation, secondary is reducing ER. I am in for the long run, so not too much worried about short term performance. However, given the past couple months performance I can use this as tax loss in taxable account perhaps??. even otherwise, I can move them over next 5 years if it makes sense.
In the domestic portion, besides VTI, I am tilted towards value and small as well. Have being accumulating them every paycheck week (of course, commission free)

typical.investor
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Joined: Mon Jun 11, 2018 3:17 am

Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by typical.investor » Tue May 19, 2020 8:57 pm

ThisTooShallPAss wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:46 pm
typical.investor wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:01 pm
ThisTooShallPAss wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:53 pm
Guys,

Can you please shed some light if it is worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

The reason I went with these three were to get greater value tilt and the respective exposure it provides but now re-thinking given the low expense ratio of VSS (0.11%) vs (0.58%, 0.39%, 0.63%).
It's not recommended to abandon a value tilt due to a run of bad performance. It's expected that will happen. That is you motivation I suspect as after all, you wouldn't be reexamining the ERs if value had outperformed.
Consolidation is the primary motivation, secondary is reducing ER.
Those are absolutely legitimate portfolio objectives.

They were also legitimate portfolio objectives when you chose your value tilt. I honestly believe that if value were doing better, that you could conclude the higher complexity and ERs are worth it.

Choosing the cheapest market cap portfolio is always a good choice. I don't mean to suggest you not pursue consolidation and ER reduction.

I do mean to suggest to those contemplating a value tilt that in real life, people abandon them down the line when risk shows up and they underperform. It gets labeled consolidation, ER reduction and risk reduction* but the underlying motivation is doubtlessly that the returns are not worth the effort, cost and higher volatility.

Anyway, I bet moving to VSS reduces your allocation to small emerging overall. DLS and FNDC have both justified their higher costs I think, so maybe selling DGS at a low will be offset by the better performance of DLS and FNDC. Effectively I think you are simply de-risking with this move. If that is not an acceptable goal, then I don't know what to day. If consolidation, ER reduction and de-risking is desirable to you, then I see no reason for you not to.

* small cap value tends to do worse in downturns which is what we've seen.

Massdriver
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by Massdriver » Tue May 19, 2020 9:12 pm

Have you considered AVDV, small cap value int developed? It’s got a .36% expense ratio and keeps the value tilt. You could probably TLH with it. The drawback is it is new and there isn’t a lot of money in it.

I personally hold VSS with VEA and VWO for my int in my taxable (tax advantaged accounts are simpler). I tilt scv domestically and am considering adding AVDV to get a value tilt int.

What is your reasoning for holding small cap value and why would you consider dropping it now? I believe in staying the course. Don’t lock in underperformance.

caklim00
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by caklim00 » Tue May 19, 2020 9:26 pm

AVDV is up to almost 100M now and AVUV (US version) is now past 200M. I'm guessing people are jumping on board when it takes off like a rocket.

Massdriver
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by Massdriver » Tue May 19, 2020 9:36 pm

caklim00 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:26 pm
AVDV is up to almost 100M now and AVUV (US version) is now past 200M. I'm guessing people are jumping on board when it takes off like a rocket.
That's not terrible, but it's not great either. Most of the funds I own have at least $1 billion. I may be purchasing some AVDV in the future so my minimum could change very soon though!
Last edited by Massdriver on Tue May 19, 2020 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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ThisTooShallPAss
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by ThisTooShallPAss » Tue May 19, 2020 9:58 pm

typical.investor wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 8:57 pm
ThisTooShallPAss wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:46 pm
typical.investor wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 7:01 pm
ThisTooShallPAss wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:53 pm
Guys,

Can you please shed some light if it is worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

The reason I went with these three were to get greater value tilt and the respective exposure it provides but now re-thinking given the low expense ratio of VSS (0.11%) vs (0.58%, 0.39%, 0.63%).
It's not recommended to abandon a value tilt due to a run of bad performance. It's expected that will happen. That is you motivation I suspect as after all, you wouldn't be reexamining the ERs if value had outperformed.
Consolidation is the primary motivation, secondary is reducing ER.
Those are absolutely legitimate portfolio objectives.

They were also legitimate portfolio objectives when you chose your value tilt. I honestly believe that if value were doing better, that you could conclude the higher complexity and ERs are worth it.

Choosing the cheapest market cap portfolio is always a good choice. I don't mean to suggest you not pursue consolidation and ER reduction.

I do mean to suggest to those contemplating a value tilt that in real life, people abandon them down the line when risk shows up and they underperform. It gets labeled consolidation, ER reduction and risk reduction* but the underlying motivation is doubtlessly that the returns are not worth the effort, cost and higher volatility.

Anyway, I bet moving to VSS reduces your allocation to small emerging overall. DLS and FNDC have both justified their higher costs I think, so maybe selling DGS at a low will be offset by the better performance of DLS and FNDC. Effectively I think you are simply de-risking with this move. If that is not an acceptable goal, then I don't know what to day. If consolidation, ER reduction and de-risking is desirable to you, then I see no reason for you not to.

* small cap value tends to do worse in downturns which is what we've seen.
Thanks. I would like to add that if I truly wanted to abandon the strategy, I would not have being thinking to buy VSS which has underperformed as well. So more of reducing the number of ETFs and ER reduction although the tilt and the mix slightly changes. How much is that “slight” is what I don’t know. Again, I may end up not changing at all that is why I am curious on thoughts of people who know better than me.

caklim00
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by caklim00 » Wed May 20, 2020 9:10 am

Massdriver wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:36 pm
caklim00 wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:26 pm
AVDV is up to almost 100M now and AVUV (US version) is now past 200M. I'm guessing people are jumping on board when it takes off like a rocket.
That's not terrible, but it's not great either. Most of the funds I own have at least $1 billion. I may be purchasing some AVDV in the future so my minimum could change very soon though!
Considering AVUV has more than 4 times the assets of VFMF (Vanguard Muiltifactor) and it hasn't even been out for a full year and it came out at possibbly the worst time for SCV fund I think Avantis is doing something right here.

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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by HawkeyePierce » Wed May 20, 2020 9:29 am

Earlier this year I switched my int'l small cap allocation from SCHC (Schwab developed small cap) to ISCF (iShares multifactor int'l small cap).

ISCF tilts towards value, momentum and quality. So far it's weathered the crisis reasonably well, though past is past.

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vineviz
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by vineviz » Wed May 20, 2020 10:03 am

ThisTooShallPAss wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 6:53 pm
Guys,

Can you please shed some light if it is worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

The reason I went with these three were to get greater value tilt and the respective exposure it provides but now re-thinking given the low expense ratio of VSS (0.11%) vs (0.58%, 0.39%, 0.63%).

Taxable Equity Portfolio (50 % US and 50 % Intl) all index ETFs. Listing only Intl below as this relates to my question.

VEA - 12% (Large Blend)
EFV - 10% (Large Value)

FNDC - 11% (Mid/Small - Blend)
DLS - 11% (Mid/Small - Value)
DGS - 6% (Diversified EM but tilted towards mid/small)
I agree that the expense of DLS, FNDC, and DGS are too high but I'm not sure that VSS is the only solution. You could simplify, lower expenses, and improve diversification from your current portfolio with something like the following:

VEA - 10% (Large Blend)
EFV - 15% (Large Value)
VWO - 15% (Emerging Markets)
AVDV - 10% (Developed SCV)
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch

jhsu802701
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by jhsu802701 » Wed May 20, 2020 10:08 am

Now this is my kind of thread! I own FNDC and DGS but not DLS or VSS. That said, all four look like good funds to me, because they have low valuations and good diversification.

DLS, FNDC, and DGS all have somewhat lower price/book ratios than VSS. According to Yahoo Finance, the figures are:
1. VSS: 1.17
2. DGS: 0.92
3. FNDC: 0.90
4. DLS: 0.96

VSS is a general small cap fund with both developed and emerging market exposure. FNDC is a developed markets small cap fund. DGS and DLS are both small cap dividend funds. DGS focuses on emerging markets, and DLS focuses on developed markets.

Don't sell DLS, FNDC, or DGS. You could, however, direct new investments to VSS if you're willing to pay a somewhat higher (but still cheap) price/book ratio for a lower expense ratio.

I own DGS, because it has a lower price/book ratio than any other diversified emerging markets fund. Also, I believe that the dividend part of the strategy means slightly better quality companies and that the small cap part means slightly more growth potential.

I own FNDC and GWX (which you didn't mention) because they both have lower price/book ratios than other diversified developed market funds.

I don't own DLS, because FNDC and GWX have lower expense ratios.

I don't own VSS, because other international stock ETFs have lower price/book ratios. If I could only buy Vanguard funds, I'd pick this in a heartbeat over any other Vanguard product. (No other Vanguard product is as cheap AND as diversified.)

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vineviz
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by vineviz » Wed May 20, 2020 10:59 am

vineviz wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:03 am
I agree that the expense of DLS, FNDC, and DGS are too high but I'm not sure that VSS is the only solution. You could simplify, lower expenses, and improve diversification from your current portfolio with something like the following:

VEA - 10% (Large Blend)
EFV - 15% (Large Value)
VWO - 15% (Emerging Markets)
AVDV - 10% (Developed SCV)
I took another look, and honestly I think you could simplify even further - and reduce the average expense ratio - by using HDEF (Xtrackers MSCI EAFE High Div Yld Eq ETF) instead of VEA and EDV:

HDEF - 20% (Large Value)
VWO - 20% (Emerging Markets)
FNDC - 10% (Mid/Small - Blend)
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch

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ThisTooShallPAss
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by ThisTooShallPAss » Wed May 20, 2020 11:05 am

Massdriver wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:12 pm
Have you considered AVDV, small cap value int developed? It’s got a .36% expense ratio and keeps the value tilt. You could probably TLH with it. The drawback is it is new and there isn’t a lot of money in it.

I personally hold VSS with VEA and VWO for my int in my taxable (tax advantaged accounts are simpler). I tilt scv domestically and am considering adding AVDV to get a value tilt int.

What is your reasoning for holding small cap value and why would you consider dropping it now? I believe in staying the course. Don’t lock in underperformance.
Thanks. I had looked at AVDV few months back but it is new and .39 ER which begs the question "after couple years, will I look to reduce ER and think VSS again?". But I will re-look at AVDV. Reason I hold small cap value is, I believe the extra risk may be compensated by a slight outperformance over a very long term (20+ years). Additionally it provides an extra diversification into a potential productive asset class.

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Doc
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by Doc » Wed May 20, 2020 11:06 am

I use FNDC or SFILX mutual fund equivalent which has been around longer.

12 month rolling return chart with VSS:

Image

http://quotes.morningstar.com/chart/fun ... 22%3A12%7D

Open the link and change to growth if you want or to a different roll period.

I don't see much difference to matter and I avoid emerging markets for "ulcer" reasons. :D
A scientist looks for THE answer to a problem, an engineer looks for AN answer and lawyers ONLY have opinions. Investing is not a science.

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ThisTooShallPAss
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by ThisTooShallPAss » Wed May 20, 2020 11:43 am

HawkeyePierce wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:29 am
Earlier this year I switched my int'l small cap allocation from SCHC (Schwab developed small cap) to ISCF (iShares multifactor int'l small cap).

ISCF tilts towards value, momentum and quality. So far it's weathered the crisis reasonably well, though past is past.
ISCF is very interesting... will look into it. thanks.

caklim00
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by caklim00 » Wed May 20, 2020 3:35 pm

ThisTooShallPAss wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:05 am
Massdriver wrote:
Tue May 19, 2020 9:12 pm
Have you considered AVDV, small cap value int developed? It’s got a .36% expense ratio and keeps the value tilt. You could probably TLH with it. The drawback is it is new and there isn’t a lot of money in it.

I personally hold VSS with VEA and VWO for my int in my taxable (tax advantaged accounts are simpler). I tilt scv domestically and am considering adding AVDV to get a value tilt int.

What is your reasoning for holding small cap value and why would you consider dropping it now? I believe in staying the course. Don’t lock in underperformance.
Thanks. I had looked at AVDV few months back but it is new and .39 ER which begs the question "after couple years, will I look to reduce ER and think VSS again?". But I will re-look at AVDV. Reason I hold small cap value is, I believe the extra risk may be compensated by a slight outperformance over a very long term (20+ years). Additionally it provides an extra diversification into a potential productive asset class.
Its .36. I moved from ISCF over to AVDV about 6 weeks ago. I expect to continue to use ISCF as tax loss harvest partner for AVDV (but hopefully I'm not doing that too much :happy )

international001
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by international001 » Wed May 20, 2020 4:02 pm

vineviz wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:59 am

HDEF - 20% (Large Value)
This one doesn't seem to follow a market cap model. Many regions/sectors tilts
Too bad VTRIX has such a high ER

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vineviz
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by vineviz » Wed May 20, 2020 4:12 pm

international001 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:02 pm
vineviz wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:59 am

HDEF - 20% (Large Value)
This one doesn't seem to follow a market cap model. Many regions/sectors tilts
HDEF screens out lower yielding and lower "quality" company (based on things like ROE, debt/equity ratio, earnings variability, etc.) and weights the remaining stocks by market-cap.

The result is an index that has more exposure to several key factors (size, value, quality) than EFV at roughly half the cost.
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch

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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by jeffyscott » Thu May 21, 2020 7:59 am

Doc wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 11:06 am
I use FNDC or SFILX mutual fund equivalent which has been around longer.

12 month rolling return chart with VSS:

Image

http://quotes.morningstar.com/chart/fun ... 22%3A12%7D

Open the link and change to growth if you want or to a different roll period.

I don't see much difference to matter and I avoid emerging markets for "ulcer" reasons. :D
Except you can not rely on morningstar to correctly chart ETFs. I added the mutual fund version of VSS, and according to the resulting M* chart, $10,000 in VSS would have grown to $16,268, while $10,000 in VFSVX would be $18,760. (also if you try to use the ticker for the admiral shares, VFSAX it wants to chart "Victory select A").

http://quotes.morningstar.com/chart/fun ... 22%3A12%7D

FWIW, here's a chart of the two mutual funds, since inception of the Vanguard fund. (On the new M* site, they seem to have spliced the old investor class with the new admiral class and only accept the VFSAX ticker)

Image

I don't use ETFs, but do I use SFILX and VFSAX for small cap international. One gives a value tilt and the other includes small cap EM and both have acceptable ERs.
Time is your friend; impulse is your enemy. - John C. Bogle

dcabler
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by dcabler » Thu May 21, 2020 8:33 am

HawkeyePierce wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 9:29 am
Earlier this year I switched my int'l small cap allocation from SCHC (Schwab developed small cap) to ISCF (iShares multifactor int'l small cap).

ISCF tilts towards value, momentum and quality. So far it's weathered the crisis reasonably well, though past is past.
Yep, ISCF has been on my radar for a while. I currently own SCZ and will consider doing a swap-out once the crisis is behind us.

international001
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by international001 » Fri May 22, 2020 10:18 am

jeffyscott wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:59 am


Except you can not rely on morningstar to correctly chart ETFs. I added the mutual fund version of VSS, and according to the resulting M* chart, $10,000 in VSS would have grown to $16,268, while $10,000 in VFSVX would be $18,760. (also if you try to use the ticker for the admiral shares, VFSAX it wants to chart "Victory select A").
I dont' see that discrepancy:

http://quotes.morningstar.com/chart/fun ... 22%3A12%7D

international001
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by international001 » Fri May 22, 2020 10:19 am

vineviz wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:12 pm
international001 wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 4:02 pm
vineviz wrote:
Wed May 20, 2020 10:59 am

HDEF - 20% (Large Value)
This one doesn't seem to follow a market cap model. Many regions/sectors tilts
HDEF screens out lower yielding and lower "quality" company (based on things like ROE, debt/equity ratio, earnings variability, etc.) and weights the remaining stocks by market-cap.

The result is an index that has more exposure to several key factors (size, value, quality) than EFV at roughly half the cost.

Look at the portfolio of both in morningstar. They are pretty different.
If you want some particular tilt, choose it. I prefer market cap and then choose my tilts.

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vineviz
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by vineviz » Fri May 22, 2020 10:35 am

international001 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 10:19 am

Look at the portfolio of both in morningstar. They are pretty different.
If you want some particular tilt, choose it. I prefer market cap and then choose my tilts.
Despite the differences in construction methodology, HDEF provides similar factor exposure to HDEF at half the cost.

An investor who doesn’t want a value tilt wouldn’t choose either one, clearly, but the OP is explicitly seeking such a tilt.
"Far more money has been lost by investors preparing for corrections than has been lost in corrections themselves." ~~ Peter Lynch

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jeffyscott
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by jeffyscott » Fri May 22, 2020 10:47 am

international001 wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 10:18 am
jeffyscott wrote:
Thu May 21, 2020 7:59 am


Except you can not rely on morningstar to correctly chart ETFs. I added the mutual fund version of VSS, and according to the resulting M* chart, $10,000 in VSS would have grown to $16,268, while $10,000 in VFSVX would be $18,760. (also if you try to use the ticker for the admiral shares, VFSAX it wants to chart "Victory select A").
I dont' see that discrepancy:
I went to your link and it shows ending value of $15,992 for VSS and $18,460 for VFSVX at the top of the chart, but the chart itself seems to show something else. :confused
Image

After playing around with it, I found that the VFSVX chart actually ends in late 2019. And so that end value is the value as of sometime last November.
Time is your friend; impulse is your enemy. - John C. Bogle

international001
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Re: Worth replacing International Small Cap (DLS, FNDC and DGS) to VSS ?

Post by international001 » Tue May 26, 2020 9:42 am

jeffyscott wrote:
Fri May 22, 2020 10:47 am
After playing around with it, I found that the VFSVX chart actually ends in late 2019. And so that end value is the value as of sometime last November.
Just look at the lines. The point is that VFSVX and VSS are alomost identical
VSS is slightly higher (lower ER)

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