There Is No Gold

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
smitcat
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by smitcat »

patrick wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:52 am
technovelist wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:56 am
smitcat wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:23 am
FWIW - some common dealers of gold and silver bars have some stock available reasonably close to spot prices.
Could you name at least one? The ones I look at (Kitco, usgoldbureau) have very high premiums and limited supply.
Kitco itself is selling gold at 2% over the spot price: https://online.kitco.com/buy/1025/100-o ... -9999-1025
Thank you Patrick - JM Bullion also has a few brands of gold bar available as well. They change often as the bars come on and are sold so you need to keep and eye out if you have a specific size and brand you are looking for.
technovelist
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by technovelist »

patrick wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:52 am
technovelist wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:56 am
smitcat wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:23 am
FWIW - some common dealers of gold and silver bars have some stock available reasonably close to spot prices.
Could you name at least one? The ones I look at (Kitco, usgoldbureau) have very high premiums and limited supply.
Kitco itself is selling gold at 2% over the spot price: https://online.kitco.com/buy/1025/100-o ... -9999-1025
I calculate that price as about 10% over spot: 174,399.80/(100*1,686.60)

And that's a 100 oz. bar, a little out of most people's budget.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
patrick
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Location: Mega-City One

Re: There Is No Gold

Post by patrick »

technovelist wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:24 pm
patrick wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:52 am
technovelist wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:56 am
smitcat wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:23 am
FWIW - some common dealers of gold and silver bars have some stock available reasonably close to spot prices.
Could you name at least one? The ones I look at (Kitco, usgoldbureau) have very high premiums and limited supply.
Kitco itself is selling gold at 2% over the spot price: https://online.kitco.com/buy/1025/100-o ... -9999-1025
I calculate that price as about 10% over spot: 174,399.80/(100*1,686.60)

And that's a 100 oz. bar, a little out of most people's budget.
It looks like they changed the prices since I posted; 174,399.80/(100*1,686.60) works out to 1.034, so it is 3.4% over spot now.
smitcat
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by smitcat »

technovelist wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:24 pm
patrick wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:52 am
technovelist wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:56 am
smitcat wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:23 am
FWIW - some common dealers of gold and silver bars have some stock available reasonably close to spot prices.
Could you name at least one? The ones I look at (Kitco, usgoldbureau) have very high premiums and limited supply.
Kitco itself is selling gold at 2% over the spot price: https://online.kitco.com/buy/1025/100-o ... -9999-1025
I calculate that price as about 10% over spot: 174,399.80/(100*1,686.60)

And that's a 100 oz. bar, a little out of most people's budget.
"And that's a 100 oz. bar, a little out of most people's budget."
Not sure whet you are looking for but there are 1 and 10 oz bars (gold) at JM Bullion and a couple of other places I looked this past week.
You will need to check often as inventory seems to be turning over very rapidly.
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unclescrooge
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by unclescrooge »

watchnerd wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:03 am Okay, I'm calling BS on this.

Who actually plans their future around getting medical treatment by paying for it in gold?

Even in corrupt countries, where having more money gets you better treatment in hospital, you don't have to pay in gold. You just pay in local currency (or dollars or euros etc).

And if society has fallen apart so far that money doesn't work, how operational is the hospital at that point?
After US dollars, gold is probably the most easily convertible medium of exchange in the world.

Yes, the hospital might not accept it, but there's a good chance someone within a 15 minute drive will and happily give you local currency in exchange.

If you think this is a lot of work, you might be right. But probably less than exchanging Bitcoin.
technovelist
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by technovelist »

patrick wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:20 am
technovelist wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:24 pm
patrick wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:52 am
technovelist wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:56 am
smitcat wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:23 am
FWIW - some common dealers of gold and silver bars have some stock available reasonably close to spot prices.
Could you name at least one? The ones I look at (Kitco, usgoldbureau) have very high premiums and limited supply.
Kitco itself is selling gold at 2% over the spot price: https://online.kitco.com/buy/1025/100-o ... -9999-1025
I calculate that price as about 10% over spot: 174,399.80/(100*1,686.60)

And that's a 100 oz. bar, a little out of most people's budget.
It looks like they changed the prices since I posted; 174,399.80/(100*1,686.60) works out to 1.034, so it is 3.4% over spot now.
Right you are. I don't know how I got 10% from that same calculation.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
17outs
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by 17outs »

Silver is seemingly 10 bucks above spot right now for most sites. 35% premium! Gold is at a 7% premium on some sites. Did anyone hear about the options bet for gold that paid 100M?

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/03/20/o ... -gold.html
technovelist
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by technovelist »

17outs wrote: Sat Apr 11, 2020 3:16 pm Silver is seemingly 10 bucks above spot right now for most sites. 35% premium! Gold is at a 7% premium on some sites. Did anyone hear about the options bet for gold that paid 100M?

https://www.cnbc.com/video/2020/03/20/o ... -gold.html
Options are zero-sum, so some others lost that same 100M. Don't be those guys.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
Irenaeus
Posts: 106
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Irenaeus »

Chip wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:07 am
technovelist wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:02 am But I wonder about the "taxed as ordinary income" part. Shouldn't that be "taxed as capital gains at the ordinary income tax rate with a maximum rate of 28%"? I say this because I suspect there are other provisions in the code that refer to capital gains as distinct from ordinary income regardless of the rate.
Fair enough. Modified statement:

Long term gains on collectibles are treated as other long term gains for gain/loss netting purposes. However, they are preferentially netted against losses, before other long term gains. Long term gains remaining after netting are taxed at ordinary income tax rates, with a maximum tax rate of 28%.
Isn't a gold ETF, then, somewhat more alluring as an asset class choice in pre-tax accounts (401Ks, traditional or rollover IRAs) for investors in income tax brackets greater than 28%, as other asset class investments would be taxed at a higher ordinary income tax rate when deferred taxes finally come due? Whereas if held in a taxable account, a gold ETF is still taxed at 28% which is higher than the currently highest long-term capital gains rate. And wouldn't a Roth account be a great place to hold a gold ETF provided it is not crowding out a somewhat faster growing asset class investment such as stocks, and possibly even if it does, as asset allocation usually has a greater priority than tax efficiency?
smitcat
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by smitcat »

Irenaeus wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:39 am
Chip wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:07 am
technovelist wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:02 am But I wonder about the "taxed as ordinary income" part. Shouldn't that be "taxed as capital gains at the ordinary income tax rate with a maximum rate of 28%"? I say this because I suspect there are other provisions in the code that refer to capital gains as distinct from ordinary income regardless of the rate.
Fair enough. Modified statement:

Long term gains on collectibles are treated as other long term gains for gain/loss netting purposes. However, they are preferentially netted against losses, before other long term gains. Long term gains remaining after netting are taxed at ordinary income tax rates, with a maximum tax rate of 28%.
Isn't a gold ETF, then, somewhat more alluring as an asset class choice in pre-tax accounts (401Ks, traditional or rollover IRAs) for investors in income tax brackets greater than 28%, as other asset class investments would be taxed at a higher ordinary income tax rate when deferred taxes finally come due? Whereas if held in a taxable account, a gold ETF is still taxed at 28% which is higher than the currently highest long-term capital gains rate. And wouldn't a Roth account be a great place to hold a gold ETF provided it is not crowding out a somewhat faster growing asset class investment such as stocks, and possibly even if it does, as asset allocation usually has a greater priority than tax efficiency?
Collectable gold is treated differently than gold bullion - you can read more about the physical bullion side here:

https://www.investopedia.com/articles/p ... tments.asp
"While many tradable financial securities, such as stocks, mutual funds, and ETFs, are subject to short-term or long-term capital gains tax rates, the sale of physical precious metals is taxed slightly differently. Physical holdings in gold or silver are subject to a capital gains tax equal to your marginal tax rate, up to a maximum of 28%."
Irenaeus
Posts: 106
Joined: Wed Sep 21, 2011 2:06 pm

Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Irenaeus »

Irenaeus wrote: Mon Apr 20, 2020 10:39 am
Chip wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 9:07 am
technovelist wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:02 am But I wonder about the "taxed as ordinary income" part. Shouldn't that be "taxed as capital gains at the ordinary income tax rate with a maximum rate of 28%"? I say this because I suspect there are other provisions in the code that refer to capital gains as distinct from ordinary income regardless of the rate.
Fair enough. Modified statement:

Long term gains on collectibles are treated as other long term gains for gain/loss netting purposes. However, they are preferentially netted against losses, before other long term gains. Long term gains remaining after netting are taxed at ordinary income tax rates, with a maximum tax rate of 28%.
Isn't a gold ETF, then, somewhat more alluring as an asset class choice in pre-tax accounts (401Ks, traditional or rollover IRAs) for investors in income tax brackets greater than 28%, as other asset class investments would be taxed at a higher ordinary income tax rate when deferred taxes finally come due? Whereas if held in a taxable account, a gold ETF is still taxed at 28% which is higher than the currently highest long-term capital gains rate. And wouldn't a Roth account be a great place to hold a gold ETF provided it is not crowding out a somewhat faster growing asset class investment such as stocks, and possibly even if it does, as asset allocation usually has a greater priority than tax efficiency?
OK - this 2015 article, Tax-efficient investing in gold: Maximize after-tax returns of buying and holding the precious metal, has this clarifying passage:
Comparisons of hypothetical taxpayers generally indicate a significantly higher after-tax rate of return for any form of gold held in a traditional IRA than in a brokerage account and slightly higher than in a Roth IRA. For brokerage accounts, a gold mutual fund investment may be more likely to provide a higher after-tax return than gold coins or a gold futures ETF.
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