There Is No Gold

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technovelist
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by technovelist »

willthrill81 wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:00 am
3504PIR wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:42 am And you can’t even eat gold, at least with any nutritional value.
You can't eat dollar bills either.

An item being inedible doesn't mean that it's not valuable in some other way.
Yes, that is one of the oldest and least convincing arguments against gold.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
Willmunny
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Willmunny »

I agree that gold is not "money" in the sense that it is not widely used as a current medium of exchange. Goldman Sachs put out an article a couple days ago in which they refer to gold as the "currency of last resort." Gold tends to be hoarded by central banks and individuals. By contrast, those governments/individuals willingly issue/spend the current legal tender currency, such as the federal reserve note in the U.S.

Gresham's law is a monetary principle stating that "bad money drives out good". Based on that law, it may be rational for governments to issue, and individuals to spend, currency such as the federal reserve note (which is a debt instrument with an implicit promise that someone will provide you goods and services for it in the future) and hoard "the currency of last resort." I think there is a reason why I have never heard a serious proposal from the US to sell some or all of its gold reserves to citizens in an effort to retire some of its debt (as measured in federal reserve notes).

While gold has tended to transfer purchasing power through long periods of time (multiple generations), in the "short term" (which for gold could be decades), it is very volatile. Therefore, this is not a commentary on whether or not I view gold as a good "investment." During the 1970s and 2000s, holding it would have resulted in a large increase in real purchasing power. Holding it in the 80s and 90s would have resulted in a large decrease in real purchasing power. I have no idea what the future holds.
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HanSolo
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by HanSolo »

alfaspider wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:29 am My point is that none of that depends on a government promise.
Paper dollars are marked as being Federal Reserve Notes. This raises the question of what "note" means in financial contexts. In my understanding, it can be interpreted as being a promise of some sort.

The Federal Reserve also has a mandate to ensure price stability, with acceptable inflation -- i.e., to not hyperinflate. I don't know whether that's considered as a promise.

I also understand that the IRS agrees to accept payment in USD. I don't know whether you'd regard that as a promise.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that the IRS (and/or other agencies, Federal and/or state) might have a different interpretation from yours.
Gold is not money
American Eagle gold coins are produced by the US Mint, stamped with notations such as "50 dollars". The coin is obviously worth more than that on the open market, but I don't think that fact affects whether it meets the definition of currency or not, from a legal perspective (just as copper pennies or silver dimes having metal that's worth more than face value doesn't stop it from being currency, legally).

I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that the US Mint might have a different interpretation from yours.
Willmunny wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:49 pm I think there is a reason why I have never heard a serious proposal from the US to sell some or all of its gold reserves to citizens in an effort to retire some of its debt (as measured in federal reserve notes).
Yes. I've also never heard of anyone, not even those who say it's not worth owning gold, writing to the government demanding that they sell their gold holdings. This makes them complicit in their government's hoarding metal that supposedly has no useful value.

Personally, my position is, if the Treasury department thinks that gold has value, then I'm not going to argue with them. Just my POV.
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Chuck »

Swivelguy wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:44 am
spectec wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:26 am So what is the proper Gold/Lead asset ratio? Should it be about 50-50, or would it be wise to be more heavily weighted in Lead if the apocalypse arrives? Maybe 80-20 would be appropriate (4 ounces of Lead for every ounce of Gold).
Per wikipedia, there are 190,000 metric tons of gold that have been mined. That's roughly 1 ounce per person on the planet. Yearly lead production is approximately 5 million metric tons per year, or about 25 ounces per person per year.

So if you want to hold "market weight" then for each ounce of gold you own, you should accumulate 25 ounces of lead per year, which happens to be about 200 * 55 grains.
I read elsewhere on this forum, possibly many years ago, that the solution to this conundrum is silver bullets.
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by stumpy »

Re: There Is No Gold
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Post by james22 » Thu Mar 26, 2020 11:30 am
If you own gold, you likely own lead too.
The problem in my town is there is no lead to be had. The local gun stores r sold out. Along with just about sold out of guns. People r panicking

As far as gold is a generational thing maybe. My parents were raised during the depression and my dad began saving silver coins after the feds starting minting the sandwiched ones after 1964. He said it would be worth something if all hell broke out. I do not own enough Gold to get me by a month so I keep it at home. If I were to buy large amounts of gold for crisis I would keep it at home. But I do not trust my fellow man enough in a crisis. The boat has sailed to buy gold. It is like buying equities high and selling low. It needs to be bought before the crisis occurs. Sorry for the rambling.
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by alfaspider »

HanSolo wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:15 pm
alfaspider wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:29 am My point is that none of that depends on a government promise.

I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that the IRS (and/or other agencies, Federal and/or state) might have a different interpretation from yours.
Gold is not money


I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that the US Mint might have a different interpretation from yours.
Willmunny wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 12:49 pm I think there is a reason why I have never heard a serious proposal from the US to sell some or all of its gold reserves to citizens in an effort to retire some of its debt (as measured in federal reserve notes).
Yes. I've also never heard of anyone, not even those who say it's not worth owning gold, writing to the government demanding that they sell their gold holdings. This makes them complicit in their government's hoarding metal that supposedly has no useful value.
1) The requirement to pay tax in a currency is one of the prevailing mechanisms governments have for encouraging the use of a currency. But there are actually circumstances where governments want (or at least allow) tax paid in foreign currency. For example, when my company pays taxes in certain countries, we pay in USD. It's certainly the case that the government has enormous influence on whether a currency becomes a common medium of exchange, but it's not the only influence. Cryptocurrency is an example of a government-less currency. It's use as a direct medium of exchange is somewhat limited (mostly illegal transactions), but it is directly exchanged for goods and services throughout the world to some extent.

2) The U.S. mint isn't saying gold is money by stamping $50 on a coin any more than they are saying nickel and copper or paper is money. If it makes a legal tender coin out of gold, it is the coin that is money.

3) The U.S. government holds all sorts of assets that aren't money. There is also a strategic oil reserve, for example. I'm not a huge fan of gold as a personal holding, but there are reasons why a government might want to hold it.
james22
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by james22 »

stumpy wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:35 pmThe problem in my town is there is no lead to be had. The local gun stores r sold out. Along with just about sold out of guns. People r panicking
Bullets are easy to store, non-perishable, and they hold their value or even increase in times of crisis. So they're a lot like gold or any other commodity that has served as hard money through the ages...

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danielfish ... 2681fb43ed
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willthrill81
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by willthrill81 »

Swivelguy wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:44 am
spectec wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:26 am So what is the proper Gold/Lead asset ratio? Should it be about 50-50, or would it be wise to be more heavily weighted in Lead if the apocalypse arrives? Maybe 80-20 would be appropriate (4 ounces of Lead for every ounce of Gold).
Per wikipedia, there are 190,000 metric tons of gold that have been mined. That's roughly 1 ounce per person on the planet. Yearly lead production is approximately 5 million metric tons per year, or about 25 ounces per person per year.

So if you want to hold "market weight" then for each ounce of gold you own, you should accumulate 25 ounces of lead per year, which happens to be about 200 * 55 grains.
I'm well above 'market weight' for both. :D
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Cycle
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Cycle »

I have three stacks of silver coins. I might sell two of them. A couple of the coins have a little tarnish on them, most are mint condition. Do I need to clean them before selling?

Sell them on eBay? Or fb marketplace? I live in a condo so could do the transaction under security camera in our lobby. Probably sell one stack at a time.
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HenryPorter
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by HenryPorter »

Cycle wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:23 pm I have three stacks of silver coins. I might sell two of them. A couple of the coins have a little tarnish on them, most are mint condition. Do I need to clean them before selling?

Sell them on eBay? Or fb marketplace? I live in a condo so could do the transaction under security camera in our lobby. Probably sell one stack at a time.

Try the silverbugs reddit message board too for help:

https://old.reddit.com/r/Silverbugs/
OnTrack
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by OnTrack »

Cycle wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:23 pm I have three stacks of silver coins. I might sell two of them. A couple of the coins have a little tarnish on them, most are mint condition. Do I need to clean them before selling?

Sell them on eBay? Or fb marketplace? I live in a condo so could do the transaction under security camera in our lobby. Probably sell one stack at a time.
No, don't clean them; it could reduce the value.
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HanSolo
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by HanSolo »

alfaspider wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:27 pm
HanSolo wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:15 pm
alfaspider wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:29 am My point is that none of that depends on a government promise.
I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that the IRS (and/or other agencies, Federal and/or state) might have a different interpretation from yours.
1) The requirement to pay tax in a currency is one of the prevailing mechanisms governments have for encouraging the use of a currency.
It's a pretty good encouragement. As long as the government promises to accept payments in USD, I'll probably keep using it. If and when they stop promising that, then my prediction is that the USD will become irrelevant shortly thereafter.

Also, you didn't address my other points (whether a "note" is a promise, and whether the mandate for price stability is a promise).
Cryptocurrency is an example of a government-less currency.
We may be going off-topic here, but cryptocurrency isn't currency.
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by spectec »

willthrill81 wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:05 pm
Swivelguy wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:44 am
spectec wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 7:26 am So what is the proper Gold/Lead asset ratio? Should it be about 50-50, or would it be wise to be more heavily weighted in Lead if the apocalypse arrives? Maybe 80-20 would be appropriate (4 ounces of Lead for every ounce of Gold).
Per wikipedia, there are 190,000 metric tons of gold that have been mined. That's roughly 1 ounce per person on the planet. Yearly lead production is approximately 5 million metric tons per year, or about 25 ounces per person per year.

So if you want to hold "market weight" then for each ounce of gold you own, you should accumulate 25 ounces of lead per year, which happens to be about 200 * 55 grains.
I'm well above 'market weight' for both. :D
I wasn't necessarily thinking of "market weight", although I can't argue with the analysis anyhow.
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David Jay
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by David Jay »

What is the "paper price" for TP...
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alfaspider
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by alfaspider »

HanSolo wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:38 am
alfaspider wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:27 pm
HanSolo wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 1:15 pm
alfaspider wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:29 am My point is that none of that depends on a government promise.
I'm not saying you're wrong. Just that the IRS (and/or other agencies, Federal and/or state) might have a different interpretation from yours.
1) The requirement to pay tax in a currency is one of the prevailing mechanisms governments have for encouraging the use of a currency.
It's a pretty good encouragement. As long as the government promises to accept payments in USD, I'll probably keep using it. If and when they stop promising that, then my prediction is that the USD will become irrelevant shortly thereafter.

Also, you didn't address my other points (whether a "note" is a promise, and whether the mandate for price stability is a promise).
Cryptocurrency is an example of a government-less currency.
We may be going off-topic here, but cryptocurrency isn't currency.
I suppose there is an expectation of price stability, but I'm not sure there is any explicit promise. One doesn't expect any price stability in Venezuelan Bolivares (or whatever silly name Maduro has come up for them), but they remain legal tender and in use.

I disagree that cryptocurrency isn't currency. Currency is more like a giant accounting ledger of debits and credits that serves as a medium of exchange. If you have X amount of currency, you are owed goods and services denominated in that currency upon request. In the case of crypto, there is actually a consolidated ledger of all transactions. Where crypto may fall short of currency is that its status as a medium of exchange is rather tenuous. Outside of illegal transactions, the vast majority of places that take crpyto are immediately exchanging it at the time of sale rather than actually transacting in it. But there are some.

I'd also note that the status as money or not is not a fixed thing. In certain times and places, gold was the primary medium of exchange, and therefore was money. So were seashells and beads. But in its current use, it's just a commodity.
columbia
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by columbia »

Gold won’t buy you entrance into a hospital.
Turbo29
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Turbo29 »

columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:36 pm Gold won’t buy you entrance into a hospital.
I posit that in many cases if you could find the right person to offer the gold to, it definitely could buy you entrance, especially if the local currency was rapidly losing value.
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columbia
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by columbia »

Turbo29 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:42 pm
columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:36 pm Gold won’t buy you entrance into a hospital.
I posit that in many cases if you could find the right person to offer the gold to, it definitely could buy you entrance, especially if the local currency was rapidly losing value.
I don’t live in that country. :happy
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HanSolo
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by HanSolo »

alfaspider wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:21 pm I suppose there is an expectation of price stability, but I'm not sure there is any explicit promise.
Whether a mandate is a promise is a semantic question.
One doesn't expect any price stability in Venezuelan Bolivares
I wasn't talking about Venezuela.
I disagree that cryptocurrency isn't currency.
Yours is an interesting belief. I don't share it.

We're pretty far off-topic. The OP was commenting on bid/ask spreads for gold.
columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:36 pm Gold won’t buy you entrance into a hospital.
Yes. And gold isn't the only thing with high bid/ask spreads that won't get you into a hospital. You probably own some of those things.
columbia
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by columbia »

I don’t think that I do.

What will get me into a hospital is if I’m sufficiently ill and there is room.
There might not be room, of course.
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HanSolo
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by HanSolo »

columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:09 pm I don’t think that I do.
You don't own stocks? They have a higher bid/ask spread than whatever hospitals usually accept as payment.

Also, how does your comment relate to the topic?
columbia
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by columbia »

I don’t own any stocks.

That people in the US would load up on physical gold is relatively irrational in relation to the situation at hand; now if they are planning to sell their existing stock (presumably at a nice profit), that’s a different matter.
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HanSolo
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by HanSolo »

columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:45 pm I don’t own any stocks.
Not even indirectly via mutual funds? Interesting. 0/100 allocation.

I guess that means you don't own a car either. According to the blue book, there's a pretty healthy bid/ask spread on those. That being said, I'm not sure how your issue of what will "buy you entrance into a hospital" is relevant. But, since you're interested in that, I'm sure that if you rummage around in your closet, you'll find plenty of stuff that won't "buy you entrance into a hospital".
That people in the US would load up on physical gold is relatively irrational in relation to the situation at hand; now if they are planning to sell their existing stock (presumably at a nice profit), that’s a different matter.
I'd rather own gold than the stuff in your closet.
alfaspider
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by alfaspider »

HanSolo wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:59 pm
alfaspider wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:21 pm I suppose there is an expectation of price stability, but I'm not sure there is any explicit promise.
Whether a mandate is a promise is a semantic question.
One doesn't expect any price stability in Venezuelan Bolivares
I wasn't talking about Venezuela.
I disagree that cryptocurrency isn't currency.
Yours is an interesting belief. I don't share it.

We're pretty far off-topic. The OP was commenting on bid/ask spreads for gold.
columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:36 pm Gold won’t buy you entrance into a hospital.
Yes. And gold isn't the only thing with high bid/ask spreads that won't get you into a hospital. You probably own some of those things.
1) The U.S. Fed may have a mandate regarding inflation, but that is not a universal condition placed on entities that issue currency.

2) Venezuela was just an example of a currency for which price stability is not expected.
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HanSolo
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by HanSolo »

alfaspider wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 5:43 pm 1) The U.S. Fed may have a mandate regarding inflation, but that is not a universal condition placed on entities that issue currency.
That's going pretty far afield of the original point.
2) Venezuela was just an example of a currency for which price stability is not expected.
Correct. Which is why it's not relevant to the original point.

Here is the original point:
jajlrajrf wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:28 am Can someone explain to me the mindset of the "I need physical gold" people?
technovelist wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 8:42 am Gold is money that does not depend on anyone else's promise
alfaspider wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 10:04 am Paper currency doesn't really depend on anybody's promise either.
I don't know whether you were just trying to be pedantic (e.g., over wording like "promise") or you thought you had a legitimate point. It doesn't matter either way. Pickiness about wording aside, technovelist's answer is informative in that people (at least U.S. people) who think they need physical gold in some cases are concerned about whether the Fed might fail to fulfill it's Congressionally-given mandate of price stability.

Your comment seemed to indicate that you weren't aware of that, which is why you got some blowback.

Just providing information. Good day.
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by 3504PIR »

willthrill81 wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:00 am
3504PIR wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:42 am And you can’t even eat gold, at least with any nutritional value.
You can't eat dollar bills either.

An item being inedible doesn't mean that it's not valuable in some other way.
You’re sarcasm meter is way off.
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watchnerd
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by watchnerd »

3504PIR wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 10:48 pm
willthrill81 wrote: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:00 am
3504PIR wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 12:42 am And you can’t even eat gold, at least with any nutritional value.
You can't eat dollar bills either.

An item being inedible doesn't mean that it's not valuable in some other way.
You’re sarcasm meter is way off.
Wait...I've eaten gold leaf....

I'm pretty sure you can make gold leaf toilet paper.
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Unladen_Swallow
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Unladen_Swallow »

watchnerd wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 11:15 pm Wait...I've eaten gold leaf....

Me too! I have eaten silver foil as well, all on sweets. Perhaps I should have been mining them....
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Unladen_Swallow »

columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:36 pm Gold won’t buy you entrance into a hospital.
Are you saying it won't buy entrance anytime, or during a financial catastrophe?
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by JoMoney »

Gold is dead. Gold remains dead. And we have killed it. How shall we comfort ourselves, the money of all monies? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our fiat currency: who will wipe this inflation off us? What asset is there for us to enumerate ourselves? What modern monetary theories, what crypto-coin games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gold simply to appear worthy of it?
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by cogito »

Maybe buying physical gold just means you are long gold ETF's. :twisted:
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Prahasaurus »

Turbo29 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:42 pm
columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:36 pm Gold won’t buy you entrance into a hospital.
I posit that in many cases if you could find the right person to offer the gold to, it definitely could buy you entrance, especially if the local currency was rapidly losing value.
Not really an issue in Europe.
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watchnerd
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by watchnerd »

Okay, I'm calling BS on this.

Who actually plans their future around getting medical treatment by paying for it in gold?

Even in corrupt countries, where having more money gets you better treatment in hospital, you don't have to pay in gold. You just pay in local currency (or dollars or euros etc).

And if society has fallen apart so far that money doesn't work, how operational is the hospital at that point?
Last edited by watchnerd on Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Spinola
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Spinola »

james22 wrote: Thu Mar 26, 2020 1:30 pm If you own gold, you likely own lead too.
But someone will always have more lead than you.. and be better at delivering it effectively.
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Starfish »

columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:36 pm Gold won’t buy you entrance into a hospital.
Huh? What? Where on earth exactly?
I cannot think of any place in this world where gold will not buy you entrance in a hospital on a radius of few hundred kms.
Canada? Everywhere south (from US to Tierra del Fuego), and all people are concentrated along the south border.
Asia? No way.
Africa? No.
Europe? Except very few countries, you have better quality private medicine available. Or corruption. Even if you leave in one of the exceptions, you can easily go in one of these places.
So where?
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Starfish »

Prahasaurus wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:54 am
Turbo29 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:42 pm
columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:36 pm Gold won’t buy you entrance into a hospital.
I posit that in many cases if you could find the right person to offer the gold to, it definitely could buy you entrance, especially if the local currency was rapidly losing value.
Not really an issue in Europe.
Of course it's an issue. The problem we are discussing here is how you get in front if the hospital is full.
Maybe except Germany and 1-2 other tiny countries, most public health systems are pretty bad. They will run out of capacity pretty quick.

Also the only difference between corrupt and not corrupt countries is in quantity of the bribe. If the quantity is large enough it's not a corrupt country anymore.
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Prahasaurus »

Starfish wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:32 am
Prahasaurus wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:54 am
Turbo29 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:42 pm
columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:36 pm Gold won’t buy you entrance into a hospital.
I posit that in many cases if you could find the right person to offer the gold to, it definitely could buy you entrance, especially if the local currency was rapidly losing value.
Not really an issue in Europe.
Of course it's an issue. The problem we are discussing here is how you get in front if the hospital is full.
Maybe except Germany and 1-2 other tiny countries, most public health systems are pretty bad. They will run out of capacity pretty quick.

Also the only difference between corrupt and not corrupt countries is in quantity of the bribe. If the quantity is large enough it's not a corrupt country anymore.
LOL. Ok, you are no doubt the expert, with only "Germany and 1-2 other countries" having good systems, or proper capacity, or whatever you are implying.

As an American who has spent half his life in Europe, I am so glad I don't live under the US healthcare system any longer. It's simply an immoral system, where millions go broke each year because of unexpected health emergencies. And you have to love a system that links healthcare to a job, especially when we will have 20-30% unemployment soon. Losing your job and healthcare during a pandemic, that is just immoral.

But whatever, enjoy your system.
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by SmileyFace »

Prahasaurus wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:05 am
Starfish wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:32 am
Prahasaurus wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:54 am
Turbo29 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:42 pm
columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:36 pm Gold won’t buy you entrance into a hospital.
I posit that in many cases if you could find the right person to offer the gold to, it definitely could buy you entrance, especially if the local currency was rapidly losing value.
Not really an issue in Europe.
Of course it's an issue. The problem we are discussing here is how you get in front if the hospital is full.
Maybe except Germany and 1-2 other tiny countries, most public health systems are pretty bad. They will run out of capacity pretty quick.

Also the only difference between corrupt and not corrupt countries is in quantity of the bribe. If the quantity is large enough it's not a corrupt country anymore.
LOL. Ok, you are no doubt the expert, with only "Germany and 1-2 other countries" having good systems, or proper capacity, or whatever you are implying.

As an American who has spent half his life in Europe, I am so glad I don't live under the US healthcare system any longer. It's simply an immoral system, where millions go broke each year because of unexpected health emergencies. And you have to love a system that links healthcare to a job, especially when we will have 20-30% unemployment soon. Losing your job and healthcare during a pandemic, that is just immoral.

But whatever, enjoy your system.
You have misconceptions here. Millions aren't "going broke" in the US because of healthcare emergencies. And - losing your job does not mean loss of health insurance - options are to extend your current plan through Cobra or sign up for a new plan through ACA.
Starfish
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Starfish »

Prahasaurus wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:05 am
Starfish wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:32 am
Prahasaurus wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:54 am
Turbo29 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:42 pm
columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:36 pm Gold won’t buy you entrance into a hospital.
I posit that in many cases if you could find the right person to offer the gold to, it definitely could buy you entrance, especially if the local currency was rapidly losing value.
Not really an issue in Europe.
Of course it's an issue. The problem we are discussing here is how you get in front if the hospital is full.
Maybe except Germany and 1-2 other tiny countries, most public health systems are pretty bad. They will run out of capacity pretty quick.

Also the only difference between corrupt and not corrupt countries is in quantity of the bribe. If the quantity is large enough it's not a corrupt country anymore.
LOL. Ok, you are no doubt the expert, with only "Germany and 1-2 other countries" having good systems, or proper capacity, or whatever you are implying.

As an American who has spent half his life in Europe, I am so glad I don't live under the US healthcare system any longer. It's simply an immoral system, where millions go broke each year because of unexpected health emergencies. And you have to love a system that links healthcare to a job, especially when we will have 20-30% unemployment soon. Losing your job and healthcare during a pandemic, that is just immoral.

But whatever, enjoy your system.
I have double citizenship, US and UE.
I lived 25 years in Europe. Half of my friends are doctors in western Europe. We keep in touch. Other than that I have many other friends everywhere in Europe and Canada.
So, definitely not an expert but I can have a reasonable opinion.
I am not saying that the American system does not have MAJOR faults, but for me - having a good job with good benefits - it was better that I could get in Europe. I definitely prefer the insurance I have now (yes, expensive) than the problems I hear about in many countries.

Anyway, this was not the discussion, but the fact that everywhere in the world you can pay somewhere nearby for medical access. This is not a pro-gold argument nor a pro-American type of health system argument, just a statement in itself.
jajlrajrf
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by jajlrajrf »

Starfish wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:35 am Anyway, this was not the discussion, but the fact that everywhere in the world you can pay somewhere nearby for medical access. This is not a pro-gold argument nor a pro-American type of health system argument, just a statement in itself.
But this is ignoring the crux of the problem with the argument: you can't pay for entrance to a hospital in most places with gold. Seriously. Let's posit for a minute that you find a corrupt admissions nurse in, say, Chicago, who you can bribe.

There are two timelines here:

In one timeline, you slip the nurse an envelope with, say, $5,000 in US dollars. They lips curl upward just a fraction of an inch, and orderlies appear to wheel you to your room.

In the other timeline, you....what? Open a bag of krugerrands? Get out a 1 gram bar and a knife and shave off the right amount? in that universe, the nurse looks at you like you're a madman and says "Get out of my office."

This whole "I'm gonna use gold while you're all holding on to valueless dollars" only works in a postapocalyptic society where the chances that you can safely make any type of transaction at all are vanishingly small. Again: I'm not saying gold doesn't have financial value as a notional hedge as part of a portfolio, I'm saying the idea that you're going to carry physical gold around with you to navigate the world of Mad Max is...pretty unrealistic.
Starfish
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Starfish »

jajlrajrf wrote: Thu Apr 09, 2020 11:36 pm
Starfish wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 11:35 am Anyway, this was not the discussion, but the fact that everywhere in the world you can pay somewhere nearby for medical access. This is not a pro-gold argument nor a pro-American type of health system argument, just a statement in itself.
But this is ignoring the crux of the problem with the argument: you can't pay for entrance to a hospital in most places with gold. Seriously. Let's posit for a minute that you find a corrupt admissions nurse in, say, Chicago, who you can bribe.

There are two timelines here:

In one timeline, you slip the nurse an envelope with, say, $5,000 in US dollars. They lips curl upward just a fraction of an inch, and orderlies appear to wheel you to your room.

In the other timeline, you....what? Open a bag of krugerrands? Get out a 1 gram bar and a knife and shave off the right amount? in that universe, the nurse looks at you like you're a madman and says "Get out of my office."

This whole "I'm gonna use gold while you're all holding on to valueless dollars" only works in a postapocalyptic society where the chances that you can safely make any type of transaction at all are vanishingly small. Again: I'm not saying gold doesn't have financial value as a notional hedge as part of a portfolio, I'm saying the idea that you're going to carry physical gold around with you to navigate the world of Mad Max is...pretty unrealistic.
This is a false issue, as long as society functions enough to have a functional currency you can always exchange gold into the currency.
If there is no currency, but there are functional hospitals (?), you can exchange gold on turkey legs or whatever has value.
I'm saying the idea that you're going to carry physical gold around with you to navigate the world of Mad Max is...pretty unrealistic.
Completely agree.
Last edited by Starfish on Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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watchnerd
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by watchnerd »

Starfish wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:12 am
This is a false issue, as long as society functions enough to have a functional currency you can always exchange gold into the currency.
If there is no currency, but there are functional hospitals (?), you can exchange gold on turkey legs or whatever has value.
So you're postulating fully functional hospitals that only accept payment in barter???
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Starfish
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Starfish »

watchnerd wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:30 am
Starfish wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:12 am
This is a false issue, as long as society functions enough to have a functional currency you can always exchange gold into the currency.
If there is no currency, but there are functional hospitals (?), you can exchange gold on turkey legs or whatever has value.
So you're postulating fully functional hospitals that only accept payment in barter???
I postulate nothing, there is a if and a question mark there.
Just for the record, I own no physical gold (or guns, ammunition, cans of beans etc) and I have not intention to ever own any. But if gold has value in any alternate universe/future etc, I don't see why exchanging it with whatever you need for paying is an issue. Why are we discussing about the impossibility to pay directly with gold bars?
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firebirdparts
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by firebirdparts »

Starfish wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:34 am
I postulate nothing, there is a if and a question mark there.
Just for the record, I own no physical gold (or guns, ammunition, cans of beans etc) and I have not intention to ever own any. But if gold has value in any alternate universe/future etc, I don't see why exchanging it with whatever you need for paying is an issue. Why are we discussing about the impossibility to pay directly with gold bars?
LIfe is incredibly easy, and we just need to waste time. That's all there is to it. Even in the smallest town, you can find some guy that buys gold. I don't trade in it, but lots of people do. It's popular. Some people like to trade. It's their nature.

People don't think about what they say (or type) and so you end up responding to something that's down on this level.
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motorcyclesarecool
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by motorcyclesarecool »

If money is how we store value, then gold is money. In fact, money is how we transmit and receive value. Therefore, gold is a commodity. A portable commodity that made it easy to transmit and receive value in days of yore.

One can store value in steel or copper ingots, as well, and they will never be worth zero. They’re not as portable. I heard of a bribery case where the corrupt official received payment in egg rolls!

What’s interesting here is that IAU and GLD don’t seem to be tracking the price of physical bullion. Nobody can buy metal at anything close to spot price. Will it mean the end of the spot market?
Understand that choosing an HDHP is very much a "red pill" approach. Most would rather pay higher premiums for a $20 copay per visit. They will think you weird for choosing an HSA.
smitcat
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by smitcat »

motorcyclesarecool wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:53 am If money is how we store value, then gold is money. In fact, money is how we transmit and receive value. Therefore, gold is a commodity. A portable commodity that made it easy to transmit and receive value in days of yore.

One can store value in steel or copper ingots, as well, and they will never be worth zero. They’re not as portable. I heard of a bribery case where the corrupt official received payment in egg rolls!

What’s interesting here is that IAU and GLD don’t seem to be tracking the price of physical bullion. Nobody can buy metal at anything close to spot price. Will it mean the end of the spot market?
FWIW - some common dealers of gold and silver bars have some stock available reasonably close to spot prices.
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wassabi
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by wassabi »

DaftInvestor wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:25 am
Prahasaurus wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 6:05 am
Starfish wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 3:32 am
Prahasaurus wrote: Tue Mar 31, 2020 12:54 am
Turbo29 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:42 pm

I posit that in many cases if you could find the right person to offer the gold to, it definitely could buy you entrance, especially if the local currency was rapidly losing value.
Not really an issue in Europe.
Of course it's an issue. The problem we are discussing here is how you get in front if the hospital is full.
Maybe except Germany and 1-2 other tiny countries, most public health systems are pretty bad. They will run out of capacity pretty quick.

Also the only difference between corrupt and not corrupt countries is in quantity of the bribe. If the quantity is large enough it's not a corrupt country anymore.
LOL. Ok, you are no doubt the expert, with only "Germany and 1-2 other countries" having good systems, or proper capacity, or whatever you are implying.

As an American who has spent half his life in Europe, I am so glad I don't live under the US healthcare system any longer. It's simply an immoral system, where millions go broke each year because of unexpected health emergencies. And you have to love a system that links healthcare to a job, especially when we will have 20-30% unemployment soon. Losing your job and healthcare during a pandemic, that is just immoral.

But whatever, enjoy your system.
You have misconceptions here. Millions aren't "going broke" in the US because of healthcare emergencies. And - losing your job does not mean loss of health insurance - options are to extend your current plan through Cobra or sign up for a new plan through ACA.
A study last year found that over 500,000 bankruptcies in the U.S. were directly related to medical emergencies and bills. I'd wager that there are just as many or more who were financially constrained from medical bills but did not file for bankruptcy. So the comment may not be that far off from reality. You're right that losing a job does not mean loss of health insurance, theoretically, but practically speaking COBRA coverage is beyond affordable for most Americans who have fewer than $1000 in savings. There is the ACA, but the rates have nearly tripled in four years in my state while the deductible has increased from $0 to $7500. Not sure about the rest of the country.
technovelist
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by technovelist »

smitcat wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:23 am
motorcyclesarecool wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 5:53 am If money is how we store value, then gold is money. In fact, money is how we transmit and receive value. Therefore, gold is a commodity. A portable commodity that made it easy to transmit and receive value in days of yore.

One can store value in steel or copper ingots, as well, and they will never be worth zero. They’re not as portable. I heard of a bribery case where the corrupt official received payment in egg rolls!

What’s interesting here is that IAU and GLD don’t seem to be tracking the price of physical bullion. Nobody can buy metal at anything close to spot price. Will it mean the end of the spot market?
FWIW - some common dealers of gold and silver bars have some stock available reasonably close to spot prices.
Could you name at least one? The ones I look at (Kitco, usgoldbureau) have very high premiums and limited supply.
In theory, theory and practice are identical. In practice, they often differ.
patrick
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by patrick »

technovelist wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:56 am
smitcat wrote: Fri Apr 10, 2020 7:23 am
FWIW - some common dealers of gold and silver bars have some stock available reasonably close to spot prices.
Could you name at least one? The ones I look at (Kitco, usgoldbureau) have very high premiums and limited supply.
Kitco itself is selling gold at 2% over the spot price: https://online.kitco.com/buy/1025/100-o ... -9999-1025
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Forester
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Re: There Is No Gold

Post by Forester »

Podcast debunking gold conspiracy theories;

https://www.macrovoices.com/podcasts-c ... the-market
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