The end of cruise ships [cruise line stock prices]

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Leesbro63
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Leesbro63 »

JoMoney wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:31 am
columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:40 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:37 am Cruises have always seemed gross to me. Almost as gross as planes. But to each his own.
A floating Port-O-John comes to mind.
A floating all you can eat buffett, inside a port-o-john, with extremely limited phone/internet connectivity.
+1 Ha!
RadAudit
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by RadAudit »

"And can you imagine being very drunk on one of those ships and falling over the rail late at night and finding yourself alone in the cold ocean, in the dark, drunk, with the ship quickly departing and no-one saw you fall. It happens every year. That image scares me the most about cruising."

Going over the side at night can be a rather unpleasant experience for however long it may last. From what I recall the railings on a cruise ship are fairly high. It would be rather difficult to fall over the rail.

It would be a lot easier for a 40 some year old to get really plastered (Thank you Titanic), climb up on the rail and try to tap dance and then make a misstep. That's one of the reasons why cruise ships have video on almost every inch of the outside of the boat.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by beastykato »

Do any of you naysayers have any statistics to base the claims that cruises are so dirty?

I've been on quite a few cruises now from Carnival and RCL and I've never gotten sick nor has anyone in my party. I've been on small and medium sized ships so far, but can't wait to get on one of the mega cruises.

I'd like to see hard data on the number of people travelling and the number of people sick. Because the cruises I've been on were all extremely clean, especially RCL. I mean the place was immaculate the entire time.

All I know is ships leave port every day with thousands upon thousands of people and we hear about what, a few a year that have some sort of an issue if that?

Sounds like some people had parents that wouldn't let them play in the sandbox or ball pit as kids. I even went scuba diving in Bermuda on our last cruise and I used the rental mouth piece, who knows how many mouths it had seen.... :mrgreen:
Leesbro63
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Leesbro63 »

beastykato wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:22 am Do any of you naysayers have any statistics to base the claims that cruises are so dirty?

I've been on quite a few cruises now from Carnival and RCL and I've never gotten sick nor has anyone in my party. I've been on small and medium sized ships so far, but can't wait to get on one of the mega cruises.

I'd like to see hard data on the number of people travelling and the number of people sick. Because the cruises I've been on were all extremely clean, especially RCL. I mean the place was immaculate the entire time.

All I know is ships leave port every day with thousands upon thousands of people and we hear about what, a few a year that have some sort of an issue if that?

Sounds like some people had parents that wouldn't let them play in the sandbox or ball pit as kids. I even went scuba diving in Bermuda on our last cruise and I used the rental mouth piece, who knows how many mouths it had seen.... :mrgreen:
In normal times I’d think that subways would have way more “Cooties” than cruise ships.
Beehave
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Beehave »

Rosencrantz1 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:56 pm
rich126 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:26 pm There will be a number of industries with their hands out, expecting government bailouts, airlines and oil are already lobbying for help.
For the foreseeable future (and I hope it is short), large gatherings are going to be frowned upon, if not prohibited. You know things are getting panicky when sports start getting affected (no fans at NCAA tournament games).

I don't know whether things will go crashing down further but the odds of things going up right now are pretty slim.
^^^ This. I've read there has already been some discussion within the current administration about bailouts. Personally, I don't see anything 'strategic' to the US that makes saving any particular cruise line (or, frankly, the cruise industry) from bankruptcy needed. just my 0.02
I cruise somewhat reluctantly (ahem, DW) and I own a some cruise-line stock. I agree that a bailout of the industry makes no sense at this time. The ships will still be there if the companies crater and have to reorganize, so I see no priority in a cruise-industry bailout.
(self-edited to remove extraneous content)
Last edited by Beehave on Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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David Jay
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by David Jay »

watchnerd wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:17 am Cruises have a lower carbon foot print than airplanes.

Yay, go planet!

But they pollute the ocean horribly.

Boo.
And it’s tough to ride a bicycle to Aruba.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by stoptothink »

Leesbro63 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:41 am
beastykato wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:22 am Do any of you naysayers have any statistics to base the claims that cruises are so dirty?

I've been on quite a few cruises now from Carnival and RCL and I've never gotten sick nor has anyone in my party. I've been on small and medium sized ships so far, but can't wait to get on one of the mega cruises.

I'd like to see hard data on the number of people travelling and the number of people sick. Because the cruises I've been on were all extremely clean, especially RCL. I mean the place was immaculate the entire time.

All I know is ships leave port every day with thousands upon thousands of people and we hear about what, a few a year that have some sort of an issue if that?

Sounds like some people had parents that wouldn't let them play in the sandbox or ball pit as kids. I even went scuba diving in Bermuda on our last cruise and I used the rental mouth piece, who knows how many mouths it had seen.... :mrgreen:
In normal times I’d think that subways would have way more “Cooties” than cruise ships.
Absolutely true, but I don't think people are on subways 24hrs/day and possibly for days at a time. Personally, I don't use subways pretty much ever, even when in NYC.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by tibbitts »

Beehave wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:46 am
Rosencrantz1 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:56 pm
rich126 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 6:26 pm There will be a number of industries with their hands out, expecting government bailouts, airlines and oil are already lobbying for help.
For the foreseeable future (and I hope it is short), large gatherings are going to be frowned upon, if not prohibited. You know things are getting panicky when sports start getting affected (no fans at NCAA tournament games).

I don't know whether things will go crashing down further but the odds of things going up right now are pretty slim.
^^^ This. I've read there has already been some discussion within the current administration about bailouts. Personally, I don't see anything 'strategic' to the US that makes saving any particular cruise line (or, frankly, the cruise industry) from bankruptcy needed. just my 0.02
I cruise somewhat reluctantly (ahem, DW) and I own a some cruise-line stock. I agree that a bailout of the industry makes no sense at this time. The ships will still be there if the companies crater and have to reorganize, so I see no priority in a cruise-industry bailout. Frankly, I look at the US having only two hospital ships we manage collectively to support versus the number, size, and technology of the cruise ships we collectively support and it makes me wonder.
I don't understand the comparison. There is normally no demand for hospital ships, but high demand for cruise ships. I suppose an argument could be made to move existing hospital capacity to hospital ships from land facilities, but the net hospital capacity would remain the same, assuming it's already at approximately the appropriate level.I'm guessing the per-bed cost for a hospital ship is higher than for a conventional hospital (but I dion't know.)
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by tibbitts »

ResearchMed wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:16 pm
tibbitts wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:54 pm
sambb wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 5:39 pm hospitals cant stop viruses from spreading... do we really think thta cruise lines can do it with non-medical staff?
The flip side is that with hotels, you are staying in a different hotel every night for say ten nights, each time where someone has been in that room just hours before you. On the cruise ship you experience that one time in ten days. So not sure where your odds are better.
Yes, that's true, and these days, infectious diseases are front and center.

However, a hotel is not adrift at sea, with no port willing to accept the passengers, and no proper isolating procedures or those who know how to do it... or equipment... or meds...

THAT is what will probably keep us off cruises in the future, despite the fact that we have had some incredible experiences these past few years, with plans for more... and for many years to come.
We've cancelled our cruises that are quite a ways out.
We cannot imagine feeling safe/comfortable once a ship sails out to sea.

Yes, there were always Norovirus concerns, but those didn't tend to kill anyone, much less several people on board, and then some later after they disembarked.
AND... if one got sick from something other than the novel coronavirus (Noro or not), then one would be offloaded, either with the ship pulling into a port, or even a helo medevac. Those patients weren't refused entry into countries right and left and everywhere.
This may change.
(Note: There was a ship refused entry to St Lucia when there was concern about measles on board, about a year or two ago.)

RM
Being locked in my tiny inside cabin all alone for days or weeks, worse yet with no internet or phone connectivity, would be my biggest concern going forward, although as a practical matter it was just as likely to happen on my previous 15 or 20 cruises as it would be on a future cruise. It''s just that none of us thought about it. I hope the cruise industry works with government authorities to establish a protocol for future situations - obviously just leaving people floating around is not an approrpriate solution. Certainly it's common for people to get sick and die on cruises - after all, it's a fairly high-risk population. My experience with cruise ship medical services in life-threatening situations has been positive, although there are obviouly problems with scale (as there are at hospitals at times, too), and specialized care can't be made available.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Helo80 »

Beehave wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:46 am I cruise somewhat reluctantly (ahem, DW) and I own a some cruise-line stock. I agree that a bailout of the industry makes no sense at this time. The ships will still be there if the companies crater and have to reorganize, so I see no priority in a cruise-industry bailout.
(self-edited to remove extraneous content)

Ok... the USNS Mercy and Comfort are two US Navy ships supported by American tax dollars. The private cruise lines under Carnival, Royal Caribbean, etc. are private lines not supported by your tax dollars.

Generally, the Mercy and Comfort are used during peacetime and non-pandemic times to provide medical relief to poorer nations and are basically a gesture of American goodwill for the rest of the world. I just don't know how any publicly or privately traded company would be able to support/maintain a true private floating hospital.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Helo80 »

beastykato wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:22 am Do any of you naysayers have any statistics to base the claims that cruises are so dirty?

I've been on quite a few cruises now from Carnival and RCL and I've never gotten sick nor has anyone in my party. I've been on small and medium sized ships so far, but can't wait to get on one of the mega cruises.

All of handwashing stations and precautions on cruise lines are generally to prevent the break out of Norovirus. That's generally the cruise ship pandemic bug (isolated to just that cruise ship).

It's more that you're in close quarters with people on a shared water/sewage line and when people don't wash their hands after using number 2, it can be a problem. I've witnessed it before in the public bathrooms.

People are generally ignorant on hand washing etiquette much like how it can be lightly or heavily raining and people are driving around without their headlights on. Too many people are completely oblivious to the world around them (and it's not a matter of socioeconomic status, wealth/job/profession/etc).
BV3273
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by BV3273 »

The cruise ship industry will always exist in some form. The concept of a “good value” is too much for people to pass on. I went on one cruise. I enjoyed certain aspects of it, but hated others. I’d rather just sit at one resort with good restaurants and some nightlife.

I think we will see smaller, more personalized trips like Viking River Cruises grow exponentially. Obviously this would be for a different type of clientele.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Helo80 »

BV3273 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:16 am The cruise ship industry will always exist in some form.


For sure. I think there are 100+ cruise ships being built now and/or scheduled to be built and taken delivery of in the next 10 years. It's definitely a growing industry.

I think Virgin was going to debut their first cruise ship soon? Also, I think Ritz-Carlton has a few ships being built? It's definitely a growing industry and regardless of what happens to Carnival, RCI, and the others, the ships are still sound and will be bought up by somebody to continue the industry. Y
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by ScoobyDoo »

Nicolas wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 9:00 pm
afan wrote: Thu Mar 12, 2020 7:49 pm One could drink into unconsciousness, which is about as interesting anything I could find. Too bad I don't drink.
And can you imagine being very drunk on one of those ships and falling over the rail late at night and finding yourself alone in the cold ocean, in the dark, drunk, with the ship quickly departing and no-one saw you fall. It happens every year. That image scares me the most about cruising.
Actually, i think you’d be immediately devoured by the large motorized circle thingies that make the ship go😳....sorry don’t feel like googling right now😀
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by BeachPerson »

LawProf wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:00 pm I'd worry about bankruptcy risk.
The cruise companies do not pay US taxes, and do not hire US workers. They do what ever they can to avoid US laws. We can find other entertainment.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by tibbitts »

BeachPerson wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 9:54 am
LawProf wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 5:00 pm I'd worry about bankruptcy risk.
The cruise companies do not pay US taxes, and do not hire US workers. They do what ever they can to avoid US laws. We can find other entertainment.
By those standards we would also have to find other alternatives to almost every product we buy. Obviously cruise lines employ, both directly and indirectly, many U.S. workers. I'm not convinced they've done more to avoid U.S. taxes and U.S. employment than most other businesses.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by EFF_fan81 »

Scooter57 wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:29 pm The problem isn't cruising, it's cruising in these monster ships that have way too many people packed together like a cheap Tokyo hotel. To make cruising cheap enough that the mass market could buy into it, these companies have pushed past the limits of sanity on size.

The size of the newest ships is so out of control, that it might be a mercy if they were put out of business, because it was only a matter of time util one of them went down somewhere in the Pacific or North Atlantic.
Lol. I am in no way an engineer, but I looked at a few the largest ships a year or so ago and had the same thought... how the heck does that thing not tip over?

Given recent events I'm skeptical that the cruise industry has thought this through and can ensure the safety of these ships. Short term profits always win out.

I think there will always be a place for cruise ships, I would be happy to go on a small European river cruise many years from now when my kids are grown, but I think demand for mega ships packed to the gills will be depressed for years.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by tibbitts »

EFF_fan81 wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:48 am
Scooter57 wrote: Tue Mar 17, 2020 3:29 pm The problem isn't cruising, it's cruising in these monster ships that have way too many people packed together like a cheap Tokyo hotel. To make cruising cheap enough that the mass market could buy into it, these companies have pushed past the limits of sanity on size.

The size of the newest ships is so out of control, that it might be a mercy if they were put out of business, because it was only a matter of time util one of them went down somewhere in the Pacific or North Atlantic.
Lol. I am in no way an engineer, but I looked at a few the largest ships a year or so ago and had the same thought... how the heck does that thing not tip over?

Given recent events I'm skeptical that the cruise industry has thought this through and can ensure the safety of these ships. Short term profits always win out.

I think there will always be a place for cruise ships, I would be happy to go on a small European river cruise many years from now when my kids are grown, but I think demand for mega ships packed to the gills will be depressed for years.
I think even the industry may be having some second thoughts on the truly mega-sized ships. I have never been on a ship with a capacity of more than 3000 passengers, and staff I spoke to did have some concern about stability of the larger ships, not to mention their limited ability to visit certain ports.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Starfox »

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Last edited by Starfox on Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
afan
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by afan »

watchnerd wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:17 am Cruises have a lower carbon foot print than airplanes.

Yay, go planet!

But they pollute the ocean horribly.

Boo.
This matters only if somehow everyone were forced to either fly on an airplane or take a cruise.

One has the choices of staying home, or going someplace that does not require long distance travel.
The environmentally optimal option is "NEITHER FLY NOR CRUISE".
Having done neither, one can put the money saved into a diversified portfolio.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by FIREchief »

I find it amusing how many folks who have never been on a cruise are telling the rest of us how awful they are.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by the way »

Starfox wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm
JoMoney wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:31 am
columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:40 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:37 am Cruises have always seemed gross to me. Almost as gross as planes. But to each his own.
A floating Port-O-John comes to mind.
A floating all you can eat buffett, inside a port-o-john, with extremely limited phone/internet connectivity.

Not every experience is like that. We had a total of 3000sqft of private space on the ship. We had dinner each night at a 3-Michelin star chef restaurant (Remy). The Japanese A5 wagyu, lobster, duck, veal, vegetables, wine collection, was all exquisite. Each night we had a unique meal and some nights we returned to our favorite items (A5 wagyu and lobster).
https://disneycruise.disney.go.com/onbo ... estaurant/

We had full American hot breakfast via room service every morning at a very large 8 person circular table - Italian lunches at Palo, and afternoon tea daily. Large living area for movie night. Private 1000sqft balcony with half dozen sun chairs, love seats, hot tub - no strangers around us at all.

It has a butlers kitchen with full size fridge/freezer, separate wine fridge, cappuccino maker.
The difference here reminds me of the movie "Snowpiercer". Some of you are traveling in the back of the train, and some in the front!
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by GCD »

Starfox wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm Not every experience is like that. We had a total of 3000sqft of private space on the ship. We had dinner each night at a 3-Michelin star chef restaurant (Remy). The Japanese A5 wagyu, lobster, duck, veal, vegetables, wine collection, was all exquisite. Each night we had a unique meal and some nights we returned to our favorite items (A5 wagyu and lobster).
https://disneycruise.disney.go.com/onbo ... estaurant/

I am most thankful though that our 15 day self quarantine ends today and none of us have experienced any symptoms of the coronavirus. :sharebeer
Well money can upgrade most experiences. That's not the way most people cruise. When I say I hate flying and refuse to fly unless it's to get somewhere I can't drive to, it's not like I would turn down a private flight in a charter jet with 3 other passengers and getting to skip TSA security.

Glad you didn't get sick. On 2/15 we canceled a cruise we had scheduled for 3/15-3/22. At the time we felt a bit silly, but in retrospect we were prescient.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by EFF_fan81 »

Starfox wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm Not every experience is like that. We had a total of 3000sqft of private space on the ship. We had dinner each night at a 3-Michelin star chef restaurant (Remy). The Japanese A5 wagyu, lobster, duck, veal, vegetables, wine collection, was all exquisite. Each night we had a unique meal and some nights we returned to our favorite items (A5 wagyu and lobster).
https://disneycruise.disney.go.com/onbo ... estaurant/
That sounds wonderful.

I am guessing I would not be able to achieve FI before 50 while raising three kids on a single government salary if I booked a cruise like that.

I'm more annoyed that the state park cancelled my $10 tent site. What's more isolated than camping? : (
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by HomerJ »

Starfox wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:36 pm
FIREchief wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:23 pm
Starfox wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:33 pm
beernutz wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:11 pm Celebrity is holding onto $15k of my money until December 2021. It was either that or only get $3,750 of it back if we cancelled.

I suspect the cruise industry will as a whole be just fine. Maybe some smaller operators will consolidate but the major players will still be major players next year. There have been outbreaks on cruises in the past which had zero impact on their popularity.
We prepaid for a vacation before the virus was in the news. Disney has $42k :moneybag (42 thousand!) and United has $7k right now for an upcoming 8 day cruise in September. We will go on the cruise if our government and Disney let us.
$42 thousand dollars?? For a cruise?? :shock: :oops:

Was this for like 20 people? :confused
Sadly no, it’s for one room of five. Disney has two “royal” suites per ship. Their larger Dream/Fantasy ships always sell out of the two royal suites too, much to our dismay. Their shoulder season is cheapest. The same sail in prime June season is $67k vs our $42k rate. All their pricing is published on their website too, travel agents don’t get it cheaper. I failed to mention we also transfer the cruise booking to costco travel which does give us a 7% Costco cash card after we get back from the vacation.

It’s a lot of money, but we don’t want to be in the smaller rooms, even 3x connected rooms wouldn’t be the same experience for us..the royal suites have 900sqft balcony with hot tub and lots of privacy , as well as other daily perks. We’ve sailed 5 times with them, first was a deluxe verandah, basically a small room with balcony. Second was a 1 bedroom concierge room with balcony - that was a nice increase in space. Last three cruises was in the royal suite, and it’s like they say - once you experience something nicer, if we can afford it we don’t want to go backwards. It’s really nice. We only go once a year and will eventually stop once the two youngest get a little older (about 6 more years to go).

I’ll say - I don’t like paying $50k for 8 day cruise but for a cruise, we can’t get what we are getting for any cheaper elsewhere. When we travel we try and stay in suites connected to a junior suite at hotels which usually ends up costing 3-4k/night too. We value space to spread out a lot but don’t always want to do Airbnb. We did half dozen Airbnb’s that cost 2-3k/night and they were OK but not as clean as we’d like. Still a lot cheaper per night than a cruise. I am retired now and was earning more than a million per year for the past decade. Our house is paid off and our annual vacation budget is 35% of our spending and we are spending 2.75% of our portfolio. It’s a lot of spending but the math says it should be fine.
Sounds amazing. You obviously can afford it, and it sounds like it's worth it to you.

The ONLY concern I would have is those grand-daughters are going to grow up with some serious vacation expectations... I hope their parents are taking them on more "normal" vacations, so they don't expect $42k rooms every time they take a week vacation.

Or, you can just leave them a bunch of money, and maybe those can be their normal vacations their entire lives. :)
Last edited by HomerJ on Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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ResearchMed
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by ResearchMed »

FIREchief wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:46 pm I find it amusing how many folks who have never been on a cruise are telling the rest of us how awful they are.
Right.

DH absolutely refused to take a cruise, even to "just try" a short one. No way. He "knew" he would hate it.

Then, about 5-6 years ago, he gave it a try with kids and a grand, plus spending a few days at Bermuda. He reluctantly agreed.

The FIRST morning, he was totally hooked.
Of course, we had a very nice suite, right over the bridge, with a wonderful view of where we were heading (and that has spoiled us, as not all ships have good accommodations with this view).

The joke remains, of him saying, "Why didn't we start doing this sooner!??" :D

We've gone on several cruises since then, from Norwegian Coast to Russian border, and most recently, New Zealand and Australia.
Very relaxing, too.
We loved every one of them!

But we are not at all sure about the future...

As for "upscale", I started vacations by backpacking. A cheap Bed N Breakfast with shared bathroom was a delight.
Just like my first apartment was... probably a firetrap.
Now we have a lovely home in a lovely neighborhood.
We could go "back" to almost any of those if necessary, but not sleeping in a tent ON the ground, and certainly not a firetrap, and would strongly prefer not to share bathrooms unless absolutely necessary.
And my first cruise was in an inside, with metal bunkbeds, and barely room to turn around. And I was hooked on cruising then, too.

But there are other types of travel/vacations that others like that we... hate.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Starfish »

Starfox wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm Our family of five collectively used 38gigs of high speed internet across our iPhones/iPads for a one week cruise at the beginning of this month,
This is the main reason to stay away from a cruise for me.
If after having luxury accommodations which I assume don't come cheap you end up having nothing else to do than surf on ipads and and watching netflix, then it's terrible deal.
I don't remember ever being in a vacation with an ipad or where we turned on a tv more than couple of hours a week, but usually there is no TV around.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by huskerfan1414 »

Starfish wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:08 pm
Starfox wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm Our family of five collectively used 38gigs of high speed internet across our iPhones/iPads for a one week cruise at the beginning of this month,
This is the main reason to stay away from a cruise for me.
If after having luxury accommodations which I assume don't come cheap you end up having nothing else to do than surf on ipads and and watching netflix, then it's terrible deal.
I don't remember ever being in a vacation with an ipad or where we turned on a tv more than couple of hours a week, but usually there is no TV around.
X1000.
I enjoy my yearly redneck vacations where the resort we stay at has no internet, limited tv selection, but I can walk around in a tank top carrying a beer and have a beautiful lake 20ft away. Its great being unplugged and grilling brats each night :sharebeer

I have no problem with cruises, to each their own. Dont know if Ill ever do one but if I do it would have to be one that stops somewhere every day over a 4 day period so we could get off it and do stuff. Wouldn't be against that. The prices right now are tempting!
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huskerfan1414
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by huskerfan1414 »

HomerJ wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:07 pm
Starfox wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 7:36 pm
FIREchief wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 2:23 pm
Starfox wrote: Sat Mar 28, 2020 1:33 pm
beernutz wrote: Thu Mar 19, 2020 7:11 pm Celebrity is holding onto $15k of my money until December 2021. It was either that or only get $3,750 of it back if we cancelled.

I suspect the cruise industry will as a whole be just fine. Maybe some smaller operators will consolidate but the major players will still be major players next year. There have been outbreaks on cruises in the past which had zero impact on their popularity.
We prepaid for a vacation before the virus was in the news. Disney has $42k :moneybag (42 thousand!) and United has $7k right now for an upcoming 8 day cruise in September. We will go on the cruise if our government and Disney let us.
$42 thousand dollars?? For a cruise?? :shock: :oops:

Was this for like 20 people? :confused
Sadly no, it’s for one room of five. Disney has two “royal” suites per ship. Their larger Dream/Fantasy ships always sell out of the two royal suites too, much to our dismay. Their shoulder season is cheapest. The same sail in prime June season is $67k vs our $42k rate. All their pricing is published on their website too, travel agents don’t get it cheaper. I failed to mention we also transfer the cruise booking to costco travel which does give us a 7% Costco cash card after we get back from the vacation.

It’s a lot of money, but we don’t want to be in the smaller rooms, even 3x connected rooms wouldn’t be the same experience for us..the royal suites have 900sqft balcony with hot tub and lots of privacy , as well as other daily perks. We’ve sailed 5 times with them, first was a deluxe verandah, basically a small room with balcony. Second was a 1 bedroom concierge room with balcony - that was a nice increase in space. Last three cruises was in the royal suite, and it’s like they say - once you experience something nicer, if we can afford it we don’t want to go backwards. It’s really nice. We only go once a year and will eventually stop once the two youngest get a little older (about 6 more years to go).

I’ll say - I don’t like paying $50k for 8 day cruise but for a cruise, we can’t get what we are getting for any cheaper elsewhere. When we travel we try and stay in suites connected to a junior suite at hotels which usually ends up costing 3-4k/night too. We value space to spread out a lot but don’t always want to do Airbnb. We did half dozen Airbnb’s that cost 2-3k/night and they were OK but not as clean as we’d like. Still a lot cheaper per night than a cruise. I am retired now and was earning more than a million per year for the past decade. Our house is paid off and our annual vacation budget is 35% of our spending and we are spending 2.75% of our portfolio. It’s a lot of spending but the math says it should be fine.
Sounds amazing. You obviously can afford it, and it sounds like it's worth it to you.

The ONLY concern I would have is those grand-daughters are going to grow up with some serious vacation expectations... I hope their parents are taking them on more "normal" vacations, so they don't expect $42k rooms every time they take a week vacation.

Or, you can just leave them a bunch of money, and maybe those can be their normal vacations their entire lives. :)
Im glad he can enjoy time with his grandkids, im sure he loves it!

I, however, would never take the kids if I did a cruise. It’d be me and the wife only 8-)
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by FIREchief »

ResearchMed wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:08 pm
FIREchief wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:46 pm I find it amusing how many folks who have never been on a cruise are telling the rest of us how awful they are.
Right.

DH absolutely refused to take a cruise, even to "just try" a short one. No way. He "knew" he would hate it.

Then, about 5-6 years ago, he gave it a try with kids and a grand, plus spending a few days at Bermuda. He reluctantly agreed.

The FIRST morning, he was totally hooked.
Of course, we had a very nice suite, right over the bridge, with a wonderful view of where we were heading (and that has spoiled us, as not all ships have good accommodations with this view).

The joke remains, of him saying, "Why didn't we start doing this sooner!??" :D
That's really funny. Thanks for sharing. We've been on five cruises and thoroughly enjoyed each and every one. Never got sick. Never had a single glitch. The cruise lines will figuratively take your hand as you get off the airplane and not let go until they drop you back at the airport. Not a thing to think about other than enjoying the experiences, food and good company of both family and strangers. No dinner bills. No cocktail bills. No tips. No checking in / checking out. Just have fun. We've seen many amazing places without driving, flying, renting cars, planning, planning, planning, etc. Other than a nap in the afternoon, we spent little time in our stateroom, so had little need for upgrades (although others, in other situations, certainly may benefit from such accommodations). :sharebeer
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by ResearchMed »

FIREchief wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:37 pm
ResearchMed wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:08 pm
FIREchief wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:46 pm I find it amusing how many folks who have never been on a cruise are telling the rest of us how awful they are.
Right.

DH absolutely refused to take a cruise, even to "just try" a short one. No way. He "knew" he would hate it.

Then, about 5-6 years ago, he gave it a try with kids and a grand, plus spending a few days at Bermuda. He reluctantly agreed.

The FIRST morning, he was totally hooked.
Of course, we had a very nice suite, right over the bridge, with a wonderful view of where we were heading (and that has spoiled us, as not all ships have good accommodations with this view).

The joke remains, of him saying, "Why didn't we start doing this sooner!??" :D
That's really funny. Thanks for sharing. We've been on five cruises and thoroughly enjoyed each and every one. Never got sick. Never had a single glitch. The cruise lines will figuratively take your hand as you get off the airplane and not let go until they drop you back at the airport. Not a thing to think about other than enjoying the experiences, food and good company of both family and strangers. No dinner bills. No cocktail bills. No tips. No checking in / checking out. Just have fun. We've seen many amazing places without driving, flying, renting cars, planning, planning, planning, etc. Other than a nap in the afternoon, we spent little time in our stateroom, so had little need for upgrades (although others, in other situations, certainly may benefit from such accommodations). :sharebeer
We prefer a bit more DIY, so we plan our own air travel (using awards for comfy flights nowadays). Then we usually spend some time locally before and/or after the cruise.
And we usually prefer to arrange our own excursions at most ports of call.

We sometimes use the Roll Call feature of www.CruiseCritic.com to arrange a small group outing with others on our cruise. That makes it possible for a group of, say, 6 or 8 to charter a large catamaran (with several cabins in the "floats") for the day, for about the same cost of a cruise-arranged excursion.

In addition to the convenience of having the hotel "follow one around", we just love BEING at sea, and especially when there is some motion of the ocean :wink:
We love sitting on a balcony, feet up, reading... until that rocking motion might cause us to fall asleep. I fell asleep one evening, and DH let me sleep, and I was out there almost all night. LOVED it!

There is no need to "DIY"... the cruise line will indeed arrange it all if one wishes.

And obviously there is no "need" to take a cruise at all. But there's no reason to bash that for others who do enjoy it (whatever the "it" is).

But, we just aren't sure we could ever relax enough now. Risk of getting sick... that can happen anywhere, and the one time I landed in hospital overseas, it was only a land trip; no cruise involved.
It's even the remote chance of "being trapped on a ship while there is a potentially deadly disease circulating. No thank you!!
I don't see how we could relax the way we used to...

RM
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by JaneyLH »

willthrill81 wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:12 pm
bayview wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 10:09 pm Once things settle down, I’d love to go on a Viking River boat cruise.

But on an ocean liner with thousands of fellow passengers plus crew? No way.

My husband and I are regular Viking customers, both river and ocean. I would heartily recommend the spacious 900-guest Viking Ocean ships as the guests are really spread out. It is easy to keep away from others and they have sinks for hand washing right as you enter dining areas! All ships should do this. The river boats are very densely populated and when there are general meetings, such as for destination talks, there is not room for all the people in the lounge and people are very closely packed in. When offloading for shore excursions, people bunch up very tightly to be the first off. My opinion is that the ocean ships would be much healthier environments.

I will be anxious to book another Viking ocean cruise, and they are offering up to 24-hour cancellation with no fees... but only future cruise credit and not refunds will be given. I will wait to see how long this pandemic goes on before making any travel commitments.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Will do good »

FIREchief wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:46 pm I find it amusing how many folks who have never been on a cruise are telling the rest of us how awful they are.
+1, haters gonna hate :sharebeer
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by rj49 »

I've done dozens of cruises over the past several years, since I love the sea and it's a perfect getaway for cold winter weather. Also an excellent way to see multiple countries, such as on a Baltics cruise. I also was foolish enough to buy 100 shares of Carnival stock for the shipboard credit and generous dividend (currently at 16%, but will probably be canceled for now).

The problem now is that I simply don't want to get on a ship where I have to be close to people. If I go to a beach vacation somewhere it's easy to keep distance, but on a ship you're crammed together for safety drills, dining rooms, theaters, ship tenders, and buffets. Using communal water and coffee dispensers are also not something I'd ever be comfortable with again. I also don't want to be around large number of people who might cough or sneeze, or could be susceptible to a virus, and I found that cruises and classical concerts are like TB wards of people coughing. The greater problem I see now is that with all the infected ships, one sick person means mandatory quarantine or being stuck at sea for everyone, which I'm simply not willing to risk for anything. I did most of my cruising on Holland America and Princess, but I don't think I could bring myself to sail on them again, particularly with their more elderly demographic.

I also have little sympathy for their financial problems, since they are the epitome of greed, gluttony, and nickel-and-dimeing, with their tax avoidance, lack of employee rights, and environmental pollution. I don't think they have enough courage to pass up profits by flagging their ships in the US, although it's already worked for the Pride of America, a Norwegian ship that goes around the Hawaiian islands.

So instead of bottom-feeding on stocks, there are probably better options, with more diversification, such as emerging stock indexes at 13x Schiller P/E, international at 16x, vs US at 30x. The most undervalued would be something like the Russia ETF, whose energy companies are being hammered by the Saudi oil war.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by TravelGeek »

ResearchMed wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:59 pm
But, we just aren't sure we could ever relax enough now. Risk of getting sick... that can happen anywhere, and the one time I landed in hospital overseas, it was only a land trip; no cruise involved.
It's even the remote chance of "being trapped on a ship while there is a potentially deadly disease circulating. No thank you!!
I don't see how we could relax the way we used to...
There are probably hundreds of thousands of tourists stuck on land in various countries. I read a Germany alone is working on repatriating 100,000+. News here has shown Americans stuck in Cusco, Peru and other places. Friends just came back from a tour of NZ that was cut short. For a while it was unclear how exactly they would get home after many airlines cut their flight schedule down to near-nothing. There were entire hotels full of tourists quarantined for a couple of weeks in Spain (e.g., Tenerife).

A lot of our favorite and most-treasured vacation trips (adventures) have been to locations that were remote with limited medical facilities and travel options. Namibia. Galapagos, Sacred Valley of Peru. And some of our future travel plans will require ships (e.g., Antarctica).

I think this is a fairly unique situation that is unlikely to repeat the same way during my (active travel) lifetime. I would probably not limit my future adventures based on what has happened here. YMMV.

Anyone seen any great small-ship Antarctica deals? :twisted:
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Starfish »

I see no problem in being stuck on land. It's more like an opportunity.
Being stuck on a ship it's a nightmare though.
So here is my vacation principle: I would not go in vacation in a place I would not love to stay for 3 moths. It is a general principle, unrelated to the virus.
I would make an exception only for extreme conditions (Antarctica, northern lights, high altitude mountains).
Last edited by Starfish on Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Shallowpockets »

Will do good wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:12 pm
FIREchief wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:46 pm I find it amusing how many folks who have never been on a cruise are telling the rest of us how awful they are.
+1, haters gonna hate :sharebeer

I’ve never been in prison either and I can say that for most people it would be awful.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by spidercharm01 »

It might be great time to book cruises for next year. This whole thing is getting blown out of proportion and will be far gone by then. I am starting to look for good deals on Alaska cruises. Some of the best travel deals I have had were in 2008/2009 (booked few of them including amazing Disney vacation and those prices haven't come back in last 12 years or so).

"Be greedy when others are fearful".
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by ResearchMed »

TravelGeek wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:24 pm
ResearchMed wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 1:59 pm
But, we just aren't sure we could ever relax enough now. Risk of getting sick... that can happen anywhere, and the one time I landed in hospital overseas, it was only a land trip; no cruise involved.
It's even the remote chance of "being trapped on a ship while there is a potentially deadly disease circulating. No thank you!!
I don't see how we could relax the way we used to...
There are probably hundreds of thousands of tourists stuck on land in various countries. I read a Germany alone is working on repatriating 100,000+. News here has shown Americans stuck in Cusco, Peru and other places. Friends just came back from a tour of NZ that was cut short. For a while it was unclear how exactly they would get home after many airlines cut their flight schedule down to near-nothing. There were entire hotels full of tourists quarantined for a couple of weeks in Spain (e.g., Tenerife).

A lot of our favorite and most-treasured vacation trips (adventures) have been to locations that were remote with limited medical facilities and travel options. Namibia. Galapagos, Sacred Valley of Peru. And some of our future travel plans will require ships (e.g., Antarctica).

I think this is a fairly unique situation that is unlikely to repeat the same way during my (active travel) lifetime. I would probably not limit my future adventures based on what has happened here. YMMV.

Anyone seen any great small-ship Antarctica deals? :twisted:
Ah, that (Antarctica) was pretty much the last of the "wish list" for us. We were already a bit concerned about the lack of reasonable medevac during some of the days there, but we had put a deposit down (special while we were on another cruise, something like $50 each, fully refundable for a long time... why not!? :wink: ).
But we cancelled that one, plus two others. The others weren't really special like Antarctica.

Anyway, I can't say that we "only" cancelled that one because of "Disease Ship" concerns. We each have pre-existing conditions, and would prefer to be able to get medevac'd in a relatively timely fashion, just in case.
But to be trapped for several weeks?
I just can NOT get that out of my mind. We are too old (not all *that* old, but still) to need to fret about such things.

Back to your question, there probably *are* some "good deals" to Antarctica now!
Have you looked into Hurtigruten? The new ships are pricey, but the older ones (not all that old, but still :D ) are great. We sailed on a sister ship on the Norwegian coastal cruise about 3 years ago.
But Hurtigruten is not "cheap" (which might surprise some), as along the coast, they are also "mail/delivery & local resident travel & most are ferries as well". We loved it, much to our surprise! The amazing landscapes and Northern Lights helped!
There are the "landing in Antarctica" or the "drive by" cruises.
NOTE: Most of the less expensive ships will NOT be allowed to sail after next season. That might be putting some pressure on that level of reservations now. Ships must meet a new "polar" certification soon.

RM
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by ResearchMed »

Shallowpockets wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:32 pm
Will do good wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:12 pm
FIREchief wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:46 pm I find it amusing how many folks who have never been on a cruise are telling the rest of us how awful they are.
+1, haters gonna hate :sharebeer

I’ve never been in prison either and I can say that for most people it would be awful.
Yeah, but I daresay that most people who HAVE "been in prison" are not great cheerleaders. That's quite different.

RM
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by StevieG72 »

Starfox wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:37 pm
JoMoney wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 7:31 am
columbia wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:40 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 6:37 am Cruises have always seemed gross to me. Almost as gross as planes. But to each his own.
A floating Port-O-John comes to mind.
A floating all you can eat buffett, inside a port-o-john, with extremely limited phone/internet connectivity.

Not every experience is like that. We had a total of 3000sqft of private space on the ship. We had dinner each night at a 3-Michelin star chef restaurant (Remy). The Japanese A5 wagyu, lobster, duck, veal, vegetables, wine collection, was all exquisite. Each night we had a unique meal and some nights we returned to our favorite items (A5 wagyu and lobster).
https://disneycruise.disney.go.com/onbo ... estaurant/

We had full American hot breakfast via room service every morning at a very large 8 person circular table - Italian lunches at Palo, and afternoon tea daily. Large living area for movie night. Private 1000sqft balcony with half dozen sun chairs, love seats, hot tub - no strangers around us at all.

It has a butlers kitchen with full size fridge/freezer, separate wine fridge, cappuccino maker.

Image
Image

Steam shower, separate soaker tub

Image


Our family of five collectively used 38gigs of high speed internet across our iPhones/iPads for a one week cruise at the beginning of this month, mainly netflix from the three kids. If it was not for the room we were staying in (unlimited internet in their two royal suites), it would have cost $3.4k. ($89 per gig)

I am most thankful though that our 15 day self quarantine ends today and none of us have experienced any symptoms of the coronavirus. :sharebeer
Can’t hide money! I normally opt for the interior cabin, I am on a budget! That being said, I have been on a handful of cruises and visited some amazing ports. I really enjoy cruises with my daughter.
Not having cell service is great for me to unplug from work!
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Will do good »

Shallowpockets wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:32 pm
Will do good wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:12 pm
FIREchief wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:46 pm I find it amusing how many folks who have never been on a cruise are telling the rest of us how awful they are.
+1, haters gonna hate :sharebeer

I’ve never been in prison either and I can say that for most people it would be awful.
Come on, you need to do better than comparing a vacation enjoyed by the millions to a prison. You can do better.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by AlphaLess »

kosomoto wrote: Wed Mar 11, 2020 4:58 pm So is the market pricing in the end of cruise lines?

Norwegian is down 70% and Royal Caribbean down almost as much. Am I the only one thinking buying a basket of all the cruise line stocks seems like a fun idea?

I find it hard to believe the industry will go away and PE based on a normal year’s operation is just 3.5 for Norwegian currently.
I see one risk. Cruise liners get re-organized in the BK, wiping out current equity holders, and re-issuing new stock.

Bond-holders will be partially saved.

I don't believe in owning cruise liners outside of the total stock index.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by HeelaMonster »

beastykato wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:22 am Do any of you naysayers have any statistics to base the claims that cruises are so dirty?

I've been on quite a few cruises now from Carnival and RCL and I've never gotten sick nor has anyone in my party. I've been on small and medium sized ships so far, but can't wait to get on one of the mega cruises.

I'd like to see hard data on the number of people travelling and the number of people sick. Because the cruises I've been on were all extremely clean, especially RCL. I mean the place was immaculate the entire time.
I'm neither a naysayer nor a yaysayer, but can provide some data. Most of the focus has been on gastrointestinal illnesses, which have certainly been notable on cruise ships, but have decreased in recent years, with better monitoring and sanitation protocols. That said, my understanding is that the air ventilation/circulation system on ships is constructed differently than, for example, the system on airplanes... in ways that trap and recirculate air, which doesn't bode well for respiratory illnesses like Covid-19.

In any event, the CDC has an interesting site on their Vessel Sanitation Program, including year-by-year (and ship-by-ship) data on outbreaks going back 20 years:

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/public/public.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm

"From 2008 to 2014, 74 million passengers sailed on cruise ships in VSP’s jurisdiction. Only 129,678 passengers met the VSP case definition for AGE illness and only a small proportion of those AGE cases (1 in 10) were part of a norovirus outbreak.

The rate of AGE illness on cruise ships has decreased over time, as has the number and severity of outbreaks by year except 2012, when a new strain of norovirus emerged."
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by TravelGeek »

ResearchMed wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:40 pm Back to your question, there probably *are* some "good deals" to Antarctica now!
Have you looked into Hurtigruten? The new ships are pricey, but the older ones (not all that old, but still :D ) are great. We sailed on a sister ship on the Norwegian coastal cruise about 3 years ago.
But Hurtigruten is not "cheap" (which might surprise some), as along the coast, they are also "mail/delivery & local resident travel & most are ferries as well". We loved it, much to our surprise! The amazing landscapes and Northern Lights helped!
There are the "landing in Antarctica" or the "drive by" cruises.
NOTE: Most of the less expensive ships will NOT be allowed to sail after next season. That might be putting some pressure on that level of reservations now. Ships must meet a new "polar" certification soon.
Yes, I was looking earlier this year at Hurtigruten (before covid was even a word) as a somewhat lower cost alternative to my preferred choice... Lindblad. Unfortunately (for our bank accounts) I would want the 23-ish day Antarctica/South Georgia Island/Falklands route...

Come to think of it, a Hurtigruten coastal Norway voyage was on our to-do list anyway and might be a good trip to book in the not too distant future. Can't imagine that Norway would deny them docking if they had a virus outbreak aboard.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by David Jay »

Will do good wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:54 pm
Shallowpockets wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:32 pm
Will do good wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:12 pm
FIREchief wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 12:46 pm I find it amusing how many folks who have never been on a cruise are telling the rest of us how awful they are.
+1, haters gonna hate :sharebeer

I’ve never been in prison either and I can say that for most people it would be awful.
Come on, you need to do better than comparing a vacation enjoyed by the millions to a prison. You can do better.
28.5 million bookings in 2018.
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by HomerJ »

Stephen Colbert... The Bug Boat...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zImyHE_dIgs

Sing to the Love Boat theme song.

Corona...
Exciting and new...
Come aboard...
It's infecting you...

Corona...
Transmits with a cough...
Once you board...
We won't let you off...

The Bug Boat...
Promises illnesses for everyone...
The Bug Boat...
Test kits, well, there are none.


:o
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FIREchief
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by FIREchief »

HomerJ wrote: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:34 am Stephen Colbert... The Bug Boat...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zImyHE_dIgs

Sing to the Love Boat theme song.

Corona...
Exciting and new...
Come aboard...
It's infecting you...

Corona...
Transmits with a cough...
Once you board...
We won't let you off...

The Bug Boat...
Promises illnesses for everyone...
The Bug Boat...
Test kits, well, there are none.


:o
Is that really the best they can come up with?? :oops:
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by Valuethinker »

HeelaMonster wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 3:17 pm
beastykato wrote: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:22 am Do any of you naysayers have any statistics to base the claims that cruises are so dirty?

I've been on quite a few cruises now from Carnival and RCL and I've never gotten sick nor has anyone in my party. I've been on small and medium sized ships so far, but can't wait to get on one of the mega cruises.

I'd like to see hard data on the number of people travelling and the number of people sick. Because the cruises I've been on were all extremely clean, especially RCL. I mean the place was immaculate the entire time.
I'm neither a naysayer nor a yaysayer, but can provide some data. Most of the focus has been on gastrointestinal illnesses, which have certainly been notable on cruise ships, but have decreased in recent years, with better monitoring and sanitation protocols. That said, my understanding is that the air ventilation/circulation system on ships is constructed differently than, for example, the system on airplanes... in ways that trap and recirculate air, which doesn't bode well for respiratory illnesses like Covid-19.

In any event, the CDC has an interesting site on their Vessel Sanitation Program, including year-by-year (and ship-by-ship) data on outbreaks going back 20 years:

https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/public/public.htm
https://www.cdc.gov/nceh/vsp/surv/gilist.htm

"From 2008 to 2014, 74 million passengers sailed on cruise ships in VSP’s jurisdiction. Only 129,678 passengers met the VSP case definition for AGE illness and only a small proportion of those AGE cases (1 in 10) were part of a norovirus outbreak.

The rate of AGE illness on cruise ships has decreased over time, as has the number and severity of outbreaks by year except 2012, when a new strain of norovirus emerged."
I have heard of enough incidences of norovirus outbreak to make me wonder if those numbers are fully and accurately reported.

Other types of things on cruise liners (such as likely murders) are classified as "missing". There's been quite a few articles about this.

This is not to denigrate what is a very safe way for people to take a holiday. Particularly in Europe a cruise can be a very efficient way of seeing a lot of places (especially in the Baltic where the land links just don't run so easily). Friends of mine who have taken such tours with their parents enjoy them.

My very active 80-something aunt did not enjoy the transatlantic cruise. Got bored very quickly. Others however have enjoyed them. They are a really good way of having a holiday if you have mobility issues for example.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: The end of cruise ships

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Today’s Matt Levine via Bloomberg:
While Carnival is still rated investment grade by Moody’s Investors Service and S&P Global Ratings, its existing unsecured bonds have been trading at distressed levels in recent weeks. The new secured debt sale is being managed by banks’ high-yield syndicate desks, the people said.

And the (three-year, secured) bond is being marketed with a 12.5% coupon. You can … see … why. The new offering comes with some pretty hair-raising additions to Carnival’s risk factors; a sampling:

We have implemented a voluntary pause of our global fleet cruise operations across all brands and such pause may be prolonged. …

Due to the outbreak of COVID-19 on some of our ships, and the resulting illness and loss of life in certain instances, we have been the subject of negative publicity which could have a long term impact on the appeal of our brands, which would diminish demand for vacations on our vessels. …

We have received, and expect to continue to receive, lawsuits from passengers aboard the Grand Princess voyage in February 2020. …

We have a total of 16 cruise ships scheduled to be delivered through 2025, including four during the remainder of fiscal 2020. …

We have never previously experienced a complete cessation of our cruising operations, and as a consequence, our ability to be predictive regarding the impact of such a cessation on our brands and future prospects is uncertain. ...

“We have shut down our business, we don’t know when it will reopen, we don’t know if anyone will want it when it does reopen, and by the way we’re on the hook for a bunch of ships”—even if financial markets were generally calm and investors were coming to the office normally looking to deploy a lot of capital, it would not be the most appealing pitch!
12.5% yield!!!! Wheeeee!!!!
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
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