What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

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MotoTrojan
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What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by MotoTrojan » Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:59 pm

Curious to hear what other Bogleheads happily pay to get exposure to non 3-fund approved funds? Obviously some 401k's have egregious fees, but I am wondering what people will buy in their IRA or brokerage accounts where low single-digit basis-point options are aplenty.

For me it is FNDC's 40bp ER for International small-value, which I hold at 25% currently (target of 30% but difference is floated in VTIAX via 401k). I've also got about 10% in FNDX (25bp) right now which I probably feel even more questionable about, given how much cheaper options there are out there to tilt to value domestically, but I get the warm & fuzzies by the fundamental weighting approach.

Weighted portfolio ER is currently 18bp.

So, whatcha got?

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TheTimeLord
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by TheTimeLord » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:10 am

The highest of any fund I have held in the past couple years is 0.80%. There are worse in my DW 401K but they don't count since you have to choose from what they offer.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]

Topic Author
MotoTrojan
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by MotoTrojan » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:13 am

TheTimeLord wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:10 am
The highest of any fund I have held in the past couple years is 0.80%. There are worse in my DW 401K but they don't count since you have to choose from what they offer.
What fund would that be and how do you justify the expense? I would presume it's active at that level?

fennewaldaj
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by fennewaldaj » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:29 am

1.19 for Eaton Vance Parametric Emerging markets. I like this fund because it is quasi passive but overweights the smaller EM and FM. I use it for about 1/3 of my emerging market exposure. Due to having an overweight in EM I prefer to avoid being to heavily weighted in specific countries. I have honestly been tempted to make it a larger portion of EM exposure. There is a tax managed version that is cheaper and has a longer history.

https://funds.eatonvance.com/media/2652.pdf

Luckywon
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by Luckywon » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:38 am

0.17 for VWITX, an intermediate term municipat bond fund

I used to pay around 0.50 for DBLTX, an actively managed intermediate term bond fund, but switched that to BND

lexor
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by lexor » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:43 am

MotoTrojan wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:59 pm
Curious to hear what other Bogleheads happily pay to get exposure to non 3-fund approved funds? Obviously some 401k's have egregious fees, but I am wondering what people will buy in their IRA or brokerage accounts where low single-digit basis-point options are aplenty.

For me it is FNDC's 40bp ER for International small-value, which I hold at 25% currently (target of 30% but difference is floated in VTIAX via 401k). I've also got about 10% in FNDX (25bp) right now which I probably feel even more questionable about, given how much cheaper options there are out there to tilt to value domestically, but I get the warm & fuzzies by the fundamental weighting approach.

Weighted portfolio ER is currently 18bp.

So, whatcha got?
I'd use all Fido ZERO funds if I could. Cost Matters 2020
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

dru808
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by dru808 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:45 am

Right now adding to oney which is 20 bp. I own Wellington at 25 but am not actively contributing.

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305pelusa
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by 305pelusa » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:06 am

MotoTrojan wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:59 pm
Curious to hear what other Bogleheads happily pay to get exposure to non 3-fund approved funds? Obviously some 401k's have egregious fees, but I am wondering what people will buy in their IRA or brokerage accounts where low single-digit basis-point options are aplenty.

For me it is FNDC's 40bp ER for International small-value, which I hold at 25% currently (target of 30% but difference is floated in VTIAX via 401k). I've also got about 10% in FNDX (25bp) right now which I probably feel even more questionable about, given how much cheaper options there are out there to tilt to value domestically, but I get the warm & fuzzies by the fundamental weighting approach.

Weighted portfolio ER is currently 18bp.

So, whatcha got?
I happily pay the 45 bps for EMGF.

theorist
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by theorist » Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:06 am

I hold Dodge and Cox international — DODFX — and it has an ER of .63. It does not bother me, it has done quite well, and almost all of my holdings are indexed at this point anyway.

klaus14
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by klaus14 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:05 am

305pelusa wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 1:06 am
MotoTrojan wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:59 pm
Curious to hear what other Bogleheads happily pay to get exposure to non 3-fund approved funds? Obviously some 401k's have egregious fees, but I am wondering what people will buy in their IRA or brokerage accounts where low single-digit basis-point options are aplenty.

For me it is FNDC's 40bp ER for International small-value, which I hold at 25% currently (target of 30% but difference is floated in VTIAX via 401k). I've also got about 10% in FNDX (25bp) right now which I probably feel even more questionable about, given how much cheaper options there are out there to tilt to value domestically, but I get the warm & fuzzies by the fundamental weighting approach.

Weighted portfolio ER is currently 18bp.

So, whatcha got?
I happily pay the 45 bps for EMGF.
Same here. 45 bps for EMGF and VEGBX.
15% VFMF, 15% NTSX | 10% ISCF, 5% EFAV | 5% FNDE, 5% EMGF, 5% VEGBX, 5% LEMB | 15% EDV, 5% CD (5y), 5% I/EE Bonds | 10% GLDM

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watchnerd
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by watchnerd » Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:42 am

fennewaldaj wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:29 am
1.19 for Eaton Vance Parametric Emerging markets. I like this fund because it is quasi passive but overweights the smaller EM and FM. I use it for about 1/3 of my emerging market exposure. Due to having an overweight in EM I prefer to avoid being to heavily weighted in specific countries. I have honestly been tempted to make it a larger portion of EM exposure. There is a tax managed version that is cheaper and has a longer history.

https://funds.eatonvance.com/media/2652.pdf
1.44% for investor class shares.

Owie.

Near lockstep performance with EEM, which has an ER of 0.68.

Image


Hmmm.
70% Global Market Weight Equities | 15% Long Treasuries 15% short TIPS & cash || RSU + ESPP

fennewaldaj
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by fennewaldaj » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:05 am

watchnerd wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 2:42 am
fennewaldaj wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:29 am
1.19 for Eaton Vance Parametric Emerging markets. I like this fund because it is quasi passive but overweights the smaller EM and FM. I use it for about 1/3 of my emerging market exposure. Due to having an overweight in EM I prefer to avoid being to heavily weighted in specific countries. I have honestly been tempted to make it a larger portion of EM exposure. There is a tax managed version that is cheaper and has a longer history.

https://funds.eatonvance.com/media/2652.pdf
1.44% for investor class shares.

Owie.

Near lockstep performance with EEM, which has an ER of 0.68.

Image


Hmmm.
The tax manged version goes back further. It had a bout of out performance in the aughts but as you said has had pretty similar performance since. I am not really purchasing it for out performance though but for the country allocation. It is somewhat interesting/surprising how different the country allocation can be and result in similar performance so yeah its possible I am wasting my time with the fund.

https://www.morningstar.com/funds/xnas/eitex/quote

guyinlaw
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by guyinlaw » Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:36 am

Wisdomtree SCV EES - 0.38%
Avantis int SCV AVDV - 0.36%

Could you compare EES, VIOV and Avantis AVUV (0.25%)?

My SCV holding is split between EES and VIOV, now I add new funds only to VIOV.

YearTrader
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by YearTrader » Fri Feb 07, 2020 5:25 am

I'm OK with any crazy amount that Renaissance Technologies charges :twisted:

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firebirdparts
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by firebirdparts » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:19 am

I am ashamed to tell you, so just keep in mind the results are going to be biased.
A fool and your money are soon partners

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watchnerd
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by watchnerd » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:24 am

My highest ER:

Prime Money Market fund = 0.16
70% Global Market Weight Equities | 15% Long Treasuries 15% short TIPS & cash || RSU + ESPP

UpperNwGuy
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by UpperNwGuy » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:36 am

Luckywon wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:38 am
0.17 for VWITX, an intermediate term municipal bond fund.
+1

I do, however, pay the .25% purchase fee on VICSX, an intermediate term corporate bond fund.

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nisiprius
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by nisiprius » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:48 am

I think that if I were tempted to try something new and trendy, I would be guided by Morningstar's "fee level," not by any single number for all asset classes. Morningstar's "fee levels" are relative, within the fund's category. Morningstar seems loose and permissive with their "grading." To make it into a rule, I think I would only accept funds with expense ratios graded "low." There might be a rare case where I'd accept "below average."

I don't think I would accept any fund with a "adjusted" expense ratio that's lower than the straight expense ratio, because I don't understand it, and I think it is a signal that the fund is using sophisticated long-short strategies involving derivatives.

I never noticed it before, but apparently Morningstar does not give "fee level" assessments to ETFs. Boo!

I'm not seriously looking, though, because to me "innovative" in mutual funds and ETFs is a bad word, and I'm not stuck in a 401(k) making the best of bad choices.

With regard to some funds and ETFs mentioned upthread, and others that have been topics of discussion in the forum or are in categories of... let's say amazed curiosity... here are some Morningstar "fee level" designations.

DFA US Small Cap Value I, DFSVX, 0.520%, "Low"
Vanguard Alternative Strategies Investor, VASFX, 0.660%, "Low"
Vanguard Emerging Market Select Stock (Investor), VMMSX, 0.940%, "Low"
Wealthfront Risk Parity, WFRPX, 0.250%, "Low"
Fidelity Commodity Strategy Fund, FYHTX, 0.610%, "adjusted" 0.610%, "Low"
Vanguard FTSE Social Index, VFTAX, 0.140%, "Low" (ESG fund)

Dodge & Cox International Stock, DODFX, 0.630%, "Below average"
Natixis ASG Managed Futures Strategy, ASYFX, 1.450%, "Below average." 1.45% is "below average?" :?: :!: Yowzer!
ProFunds UltraBull, ULPIX, 1.500%, "Below average" (Yowzer! again)

DoubleLine Total Return Bond I, DBLTX, 0.480%, "Average"
AQR Multi-Asset (formerly AQR Risk Parity), AQRIX, 1.380%, "adjusted" 0.980%, "Average"
Vanguard Market Neutral Fund, VMNFX, 1.800%, "adjusted" 0.200%, "Average"
Fidelity Contrafund, FCNTX, 0.820%, "Average"

Parametric Emerging Markets, EAEMX,1.440%, "Above Average"
Domini Impact Equity (Investor), 1.09%, "Above average" (ESG)

AQR Style Premia Alternative R6, QSPRX, 2.240%, "adjusted" 1.470%, "High"
PIMCO Commodity RealReturn Strategy I, PCRIX, 1.460%, "adjusted" 0.740%, "High"
Templeton Frontier Markets R6, FFMRX, 1.590%, "High"
USA Mutuals Vitium Global Investor, VICEX, 1.490%, "High" (Vice fund for those who like the idea of doing well by doing evil)

and the winnah....

Federated Prudent Bear, BEARX, 2.890%, "adjusted" 1.830%, "High"
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

bgf
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by bgf » Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:50 am

0.45 for TIAA-CREF Target date fund in 403b. HSA might be a little more because of the monthly fee...

weighted portfolio 0.21.
“TE OCCIDERE POSSUNT SED TE EDERE NON POSSUNT NEFAS EST"

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jeffyscott
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by jeffyscott » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:03 am

firebirdparts wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:19 am
I am ashamed to tell you, so just keep in mind the results are going to be biased.
:D

Well, so far it looks like I can set the record with T. Rowe Price Emerging Market (PRMSX) at 1.22%. That is/was in an employer plan and have been moving out of it over the past couple years in favor of lower cost options, but still have a rump position of 0.7% of portfolio. Hopefully, I won't continue to regret having moved out.
Time is your friend; impulse is your enemy. - John C. Bogle

columbia
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by columbia » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:11 am

nisiprius wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:48 am
I think that if I were tempted to try something new and trendy, I would be guided by Morningstar's "fee level," not by any single number for all asset classes. Morningstar's "fee levels" are relative, within the fund's category. Morningstar seems loose and permissive with their "grading." To make it into a rule, I think I would only accept funds with expense ratios graded "low." There might be a rare case where I'd accept "below average."

I don't think I would accept any fund with a "adjusted" expense ratio that's lower than the straight expense ratio, because I don't understand it, and I think it is a signal that the fund is using sophisticated long-short strategies involving derivatives.

I never noticed it before, but apparently Morningstar does not give "fee level" assessments to ETFs. Boo!

I'm not seriously looking, though, because to me "innovative" in mutual funds and ETFs is a bad word, and I'm not stuck in a 401(k) making the best of bad choices.

With regard to some funds and ETFs mentioned upthread, and others that have been topics of discussion in the forum or are in categories of... let's say amazed curiosity... here are some Morningstar "fee level" designations.

DFA US Small Cap Value I, DFSVX, 0.520%, "Low"
Vanguard Alternative Strategies Investor, VASFX, 0.660%, "Low"
Vanguard Emerging Market Select Stock (Investor), VMMSX, 0.940%, "Low"
Wealthfront Risk Parity, WFRPX, 0.250%, "Low"
Fidelity Commodity Strategy Fund, FYHTX, 0.610%, "adjusted" 0.610%, "Low"
Vanguard FTSE Social Index, VFTAX, 0.140%, "Low" (ESG fund)

Dodge & Cox International Stock, DODFX, 0.630%, "Below average"
Natixis ASG Managed Futures Strategy, ASYFX, 1.450%, "Below average." 1.45% is "below average?" :?: :!: Yowzer!
ProFunds UltraBull, ULPIX, 1.500%, "Below average" (Yowzer! again)

DoubleLine Total Return Bond I, DBLTX, 0.480%, "Average"
AQR Multi-Asset (formerly AQR Risk Parity), AQRIX, 1.380%, "adjusted" 0.980%, "Average"
Vanguard Market Neutral Fund, VMNFX, 1.800%, "adjusted" 0.200%, "Average"
Fidelity Contrafund, FCNTX, 0.820%, "Average"

Parametric Emerging Markets, EAEMX,1.440%, "Above Average"
Domini Impact Equity (Investor), 1.09%, "Above average" (ESG)

AQR Style Premia Alternative R6, QSPRX, 2.240%, "adjusted" 1.470%, "High"
PIMCO Commodity RealReturn Strategy I, PCRIX, 1.460%, "adjusted" 0.740%, "High"
Templeton Frontier Markets R6, FFMRX, 1.590%, "High"
USA Mutuals Vitium Global Investor, VICEX, 1.490%, "High" (Vice fund for those who like the idea of doing well by doing evil)

and the winnah....

Federated Prudent Bear, BEARX, 2.890%, "adjusted" 1.830%, "High"
“Prudent”

Topic Author
MotoTrojan
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by MotoTrojan » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:11 am

lexor wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:43 am
MotoTrojan wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:59 pm
Curious to hear what other Bogleheads happily pay to get exposure to non 3-fund approved funds? Obviously some 401k's have egregious fees, but I am wondering what people will buy in their IRA or brokerage accounts where low single-digit basis-point options are aplenty.

For me it is FNDC's 40bp ER for International small-value, which I hold at 25% currently (target of 30% but difference is floated in VTIAX via 401k). I've also got about 10% in FNDX (25bp) right now which I probably feel even more questionable about, given how much cheaper options there are out there to tilt to value domestically, but I get the warm & fuzzies by the fundamental weighting approach.

Weighted portfolio ER is currently 18bp.

So, whatcha got?
I'd use all Fido ZERO funds if I could. Cost Matters 2020
As shown in your thread, they are often not the cheapest funds out there, so don’t look only at ER.

rkhusky
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by rkhusky » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:15 am

0.17% for Wellington. 0.16% for Vanguard FTSE All-World ex-US Small-Cap. 0.16% for Vanguard Prime MM.
Last edited by rkhusky on Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

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MotoTrojan
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by MotoTrojan » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:15 am

guyinlaw wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 3:36 am
Wisdomtree SCV EES - 0.38%
Avantis int SCV AVDV - 0.36%

Could you compare EES, VIOV and Avantis AVUV (0.25%)?

My SCV holding is split between EES and VIOV, now I add new funds only to VIOV.
I didn’t know about EES, but that is a steep ER given the low cost options like VIOV. Even the Schwab fundamental small option is only 25bp and probably has a methodology closer to EES. I use VIOV/SLYV there myself to keep overall expenses in check and not put all my eggs in the fundamental basket.

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MotoTrojan
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by MotoTrojan » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:21 am

watchnerd wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:24 am
My highest ER:

Prime Money Market fund = 0.16
Good point. I pay 42bp for SPRXX and SPAXX.

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alpenglow
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by alpenglow » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:23 am

I briefly paid whatever very high ER AQR's Style Premium Alternative Fund (QSPNX) charges then quickly came to my senses a year or two ago. Now my highest ER is 0.13 in my children's 529 plan.

Edit: As MotoTrojan pointed out, I do pay 42bp for SPRXX in my Fidelity CMA. Still better than 0% interest at Chase though.

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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by MotoTrojan » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:26 am

alpenglow wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:23 am
I briefly paid whatever very high ER AQR's Style Premium Alternative Fund (QSPNX) charges then quickly came to my senses a year or two ago. Now my highest ER is 0.13 in my children's 529 plan.

Edit: As MotoTrojan pointed out, I do pay 42bp for SPRXX in my Fidelity CMA. Still better than 0% interest at Chase though.
I justify the Fidelity ER because the combined checking and savings allows my checking to earn interest. Plus larger cash bundles can go in t-bills.

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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by alpenglow » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:28 am

MotoTrojan wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:26 am
alpenglow wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:23 am
I briefly paid whatever very high ER AQR's Style Premium Alternative Fund (QSPNX) charges then quickly came to my senses a year or two ago. Now my highest ER is 0.13 in my children's 529 plan.

Edit: As MotoTrojan pointed out, I do pay 42bp for SPRXX in my Fidelity CMA. Still better than 0% interest at Chase though.
I justify the Fidelity ER because the combined checking and savings allows my checking to earn interest. Plus larger cash bundles can go in t-bills.
That's my thinking as well. :sharebeer

Monster99
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by Monster99 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:30 am

Dodge and Cox stock fund and the international fund. ~0.5% ER for each. Both are actve and I am currently drawing them down to simplify in retirement. Next would be my stable value fund in my 401k at 0.31.

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TheTimeLord
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by TheTimeLord » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:31 am

MotoTrojan wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:13 am
TheTimeLord wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:10 am
The highest of any fund I have held in the past couple years is 0.80%. There are worse in my DW 401K but they don't count since you have to choose from what they offer.
What fund would that be and how do you justify the expense? I would presume it's active at that level?
Fidelity Blue Chip Growth
https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/mutua ... /316389303

I am not currently holding the fund, unfortunately.
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by jhfenton » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:43 am

Non-401(k) funds:

1. EYLD/Cambria Emerging Shareholder Yield at 66 bp. It is essentially a deep value small-mid EM fund, and EM small funds are all comparably priced.
2. VEGBX/Vanguard Emerging Market Bond Fund Admiral Shares at 45 bp. I've owned it since inception.

Everything else outside a 401(k) is 13 bp or less (VOHIX/Vanguard Ohio Long-Term Tax Exempt and VFVA/Vanguard US Value Factor).

It's not the question that was asked, but among our 401(k) funds, one stands out:

1. RBFCX/American Funds The Bond Fund of America Class R-3 @ 91 bp. :annoyed It's the cheapest fund in my wife's new 401(k). All of the options are American Funds R-3 share class funds. :thumbsdown At the moment, we're putting all of her money into the fund so that presumably we see the smallest long-term growth in that account.

lexor
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by lexor » Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:48 am

MotoTrojan wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 8:11 am
lexor wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 12:43 am
MotoTrojan wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:59 pm
Curious to hear what other Bogleheads happily pay to get exposure to non 3-fund approved funds? Obviously some 401k's have egregious fees, but I am wondering what people will buy in their IRA or brokerage accounts where low single-digit basis-point options are aplenty.

For me it is FNDC's 40bp ER for International small-value, which I hold at 25% currently (target of 30% but difference is floated in VTIAX via 401k). I've also got about 10% in FNDX (25bp) right now which I probably feel even more questionable about, given how much cheaper options there are out there to tilt to value domestically, but I get the warm & fuzzies by the fundamental weighting approach.

Weighted portfolio ER is currently 18bp.

So, whatcha got?
I'd use all Fido ZERO funds if I could. Cost Matters 2020
As shown in your thread, they are often not the cheapest funds out there, so don’t look only at ER.
I didn't actually show that in my thread but yes they are not tax efficient. But you said willingly....I only buy other funds in my taxable because I'm forced to by taxes
“The miracle of compounding returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compounding costs.” -Mr. John C. Bogle

Hallman
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by Hallman » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:08 am

I own some EMGF and FNDE, because at the time of purchase I was willing to pay the ER (0.45 and 0.39%).

However, the more that I've thought about it, I've come to the conclusion that they are much more expensive than the ER. Including foreign taxes the funds cost about 90 basis points. I expect trading frictions to be much larger than for developed markets, easily making them cost 1%+.

To make matters worse, and this goes for most international funds (I've heard that Vanguard is the exception, but I haven't had it confirmed), the indices the funds compare themselves to are adjusted for non-treaty dividend withholding taxes. The problem with this is that the assumed taxes are typically much higher than the actual treaty rates the funds receive. This makes it much harder to evaluate the funds performance and to determine how much it actually costs.

As an example, look at this Ishares single country (France) ETF. It has a 50 basis point fee, but has been beating the index. Why? Because the index assumes a higher foreign tax rate than is actually applicable. https://www.ishares.com/us/products/239 ... france-etf

dknightd
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by dknightd » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:14 am

I'm paying .83% on the TIAA real estate fund. It is higher than I like, but I like the fund so pay it.

wolf359
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by wolf359 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:30 am

MotoTrojan wrote:
Thu Feb 06, 2020 11:59 pm
Curious to hear what other Bogleheads happily pay to get exposure to non 3-fund approved funds? Obviously some 401k's have egregious fees, but I am wondering what people will buy in their IRA or brokerage accounts where low single-digit basis-point options are aplenty.

For me it is FNDC's 40bp ER for International small-value, which I hold at 25% currently (target of 30% but difference is floated in VTIAX via 401k). I've also got about 10% in FNDX (25bp) right now which I probably feel even more questionable about, given how much cheaper options there are out there to tilt to value domestically, but I get the warm & fuzzies by the fundamental weighting approach.

Weighted portfolio ER is currently 18bp.

So, whatcha got?
I'm willing to buy:
NASDAQ 100 QQQ (0.20)
Momentum MTUM (0.15)
Vanguard Real Estate Index Fund Admiral Shares VGSLX (0.12)

However, overall holdings of the expensive funds are small enough that they don't contribute significantly to costs. Despite these holdings, my weighted portfolio ER, including 401ks, is currently (0.08).

JW-Retired
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by JW-Retired » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:35 am

I have mostly low expense Boglehead level funds...... except for Fidelity Contrafund Fund at about 0.8%. That's about 5 times more than any of my other funds. Regrettably, I bought it 30-something years ago so I'm tax trapped. :annoyed

On top of this Contra likes to trade a good deal so they frequently realize capital gains I am forced to pay tax on. :annoyed :annoyed
JW
Retired at Last

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Quercus Palustris
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by Quercus Palustris » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:41 am

SMLF (iShares Edge MSCI Multifactor USA Small-Cap ETF) for SCV at 0.30%, 16% of portfolio. I think everything else is <0.10%, so I'm not too heartbroken about it - low cost 401k choices w/ Fido brokerage link, can't complain.

Guess I haven't gotten on the AVUV train, and some days I think I should have just gone w SLYV, but I learned here to stick with your choices (until you don't) so I guess I'll find out if multifactor was worth it in 30 years :beer

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Portfolio7
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by Portfolio7 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:42 am

My highest E/Rs have been in my 401k funds.

FSCRX 1.06% (Int'l Small Cap, since replaced with a much lower fee fund)

FOCKX 0.72% Still about 5% of my portfolio

I still have a few DFA funds at around 50 bpts, but have been slowly transitioning to lower cost funds (under 10 bpts).
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest" - Benjamin Franklin

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House Blend
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by House Blend » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:42 am

I'm paying 0.83% this year for TIAA Real Estate.

ER has fluctuated between 0.8% and 1.0% over the past decade. I believe the previous decade had a lower range of ERs, but I haven't kept records for that far back.

tibbitts
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by tibbitts » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:49 am

I pay for TIAA Real Estate, and have lost track of the expenses since they've been all over the map, and don't translate directly to a typical fund, but last I knew it was around .90.

Also .70 I think for TRP Blue Chip Growth, but get a little of that back through my employer plan. But then I pay about $34/year for the plan so... whatever, that's on a $5000 investment. Plus .50 for TRP High Yield Bond Institutional (on about an $80k balance), and about .7-something for a couple of Fidelity active funds (about $7k in each.) At Vanguard I pay .45% for Emerging Market Bond.

rockstar
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by rockstar » Fri Feb 07, 2020 9:56 am

The lowest I can get in my 401k that’s not stable income. I have no control over fees, which is why I like IRAs more.

caklim00
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by caklim00 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:19 am

DFEVX DFA EM Value .54%
DFFVX DFA US Targeted Value I .37%
PDBZX PGIM Total Return Bond Z .49%
ISCF Dev Small Multifactor .4%
AVEM EM .33%
AVDV Dev SCV .36%

DVEVX has definitely been my worst fund but its been expected. DFA are held in an old 401k. The PGIM is spouses 401k bond fund. I use ISCF and Avantis for EM and Intl SCV. Part of me is trying to decide whether its time to rollover the 401k to and IRA and use Avantis and play the broker bonus game.

stormcrow
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by stormcrow » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:24 am

nisiprius wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:48 am

and the winnah....

Federated Prudent Bear, BEARX, 2.890%, "adjusted" 1.830%, "High"
I'm sure after one holds that for a while it certainly does feel like a bear market.

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sunnywindy
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by sunnywindy » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:26 am

Currently, I pay 0.45 bp for iShares Edge MSCI Emerging Markets Multifactor ETF (EMGF). I am (mostly) fine with the price, but with Avantis Emerging Markets ETF (AVEM) only being 0.33 bp (I own some of this), it a little bit pricy as it is still just an index fund.

Once I owned Wisdom Tree Emerging Markets High Dividend ETF (DEM) for 0.63 bp and the whole time I owned it (maybe two years) the price bothered me, so I sold it. So, I think my emotional reaction to the ETF (very rare for me) was a combination of a too high price and Wisdom Tree generally overall charging too high prices and I didn't want to own something from that company anymore.

(Wisdom Tree has some good indexes & ideas, but in my opinion, the management/owners are maybe too greedy and not adapting well to the times - a pity. High ERs eventually affect people's overall view of the company and influence if they want to continue to hold WisdomTree's product or not. ...and the answer is not... Click on "Parent" https://www.morningstar.com/etfs/arcx/dem/quote and you will see how Wisdom Tree is flailing versus the overall buoyant ETF industry.)
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scrabbler1
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by scrabbler1 » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:37 am

I stay under 1%, with most of my holdings under 0.50%. Two of my 6 holdings, representing 40% of my total portfolio, are in index funds (under 0.040%). The 2 highest ER funds, around 0.70-0.85%, have some special features. One of them, a small holding, has checkwriting privileges and acts as my second-tier EF. The other, a larger holding, invests in a small slice of mostly just-below-investment-grade bonds, bonds rated B, BB, and BBB. The remaining two are just below 0.50%.

JakeyLee
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by JakeyLee » Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:50 am

I paid .45 for, wait for it... an S&P 500 index fund from Wells Fargo. I did this for 10 years. Ouch! Thank God I was able to convince our administrators at work to add Vanguard as an option for our 403b. Its interesting how much the industry has changed. I remember 25 years ago feeling good about having an expense ratio below 1.0. With no front load! It's nice to see how far we've come. Truly a great time to be an investor.

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firebirdparts
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by firebirdparts » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:11 am

stormcrow wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 10:24 am
nisiprius wrote:
Fri Feb 07, 2020 7:48 am

and the winnah....

Federated Prudent Bear, BEARX, 2.890%, "adjusted" 1.830%, "High"
I'm sure after one holds that for a while it certainly does feel like a bear market.
It's shocking, really. It's one thing to be a market timer on the wrong side. Why would you need to pay a big fee to be that? I guess their day is coming.
A fool and your money are soon partners

mancich
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by mancich » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:15 am

T. Rowe Price Blue Chip Growth - .70%
It is in my 401k inside my BrokerageLink window; it has done well. Everything else inside and outside of retirement is Index funds that are < .10%

MnD
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by MnD » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:21 am

Dodge and Cox Stock .52, International Stock .63, and Global Bond .45.
My overall dollar-weighted ER is .10 which is what really matters.
70/30 AA, Global market cap equity. Rebalance if FI <25% or >35%. Weighted ER< .10%. 5% of annual portfolio balance SWR, Proportional (to AA) withdrawals.

Independent George
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Re: What is the highest expense ratio you willingly pay?

Post by Independent George » Fri Feb 07, 2020 11:50 am

My biggest expense is Wellesley investor shares, at 0.23%.

I'm completely ok with both the expense and the tax inefficiency. It's my 'intermediate' investment - a moderate risk/return fund that I expect to be tapped within 5-10 years instead of the emergency fund.

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