Faith driven investing

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charis23
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Faith driven investing

Post by charis23 »

Hi, are there any Christians or other religious folks that take their faith into account when making investment decisions? I'm a Christian and recently came across the idea of Biblically responsible investing (BRI) and am curious if other believers have considered adjusting their portfolios. For example, it may not be pleasing God to profit from the sale of unethical products which if you owned a total stock market fund (VTI/VTSMX), you would potentially profit from. There's been a lot more development in the ESG space with funds catering to socially conscious or religious people but right now most do not have very long track records and/or high fees.

One definition of BRI I liked found https://christianinvestmentforum.org/bi ... about-bri/ is:
"BRI is an investment decision making process that applies Christian values to issues facing shareholders and stakeholders regarding moral and social principles. This coupled with traditional financial analysis provides a platform for investment decisions that allows us to be faithful stewards of God’s gifts and respect the foundational beliefs of our shared Christian faith."
Hopefully this topic is allowed since I felt like it might be quite relevant to a subset of Bogleheads.

[Please keep replies focused on the investing/financial aspects and avoid religious references - moderator prudent]
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Jack FFR1846 »

As with any investment, you're not giving the company a dime. You're buying from the previous holder of the stock. So to stay away from faith based and shift to say Green considerations, you might buy Berkshire Wind stock, supporting wind generated electricity only to find that you've paid the previous stock holder, who happened to be T Boone Pikens, who plans to layer his lawn with a foot of crude oil using the money you paid for that stock.
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JoeRetire
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by JoeRetire »

I'll try to be very careful here, so as not to violate forum rules...

Every religion, and likely every individual, has a different definition of what would be pleasing to their god.

If you look hard, you can probably find a fund that appears to have views that match yours and may have an investing vehicle that will make you happy. Try not to expect perfection. Be careful of fees. Expect lower returns simply due to the selectiveness required.
Last edited by JoeRetire on Fri Jan 03, 2020 9:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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stan1
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by stan1 »

The topic has come up before with halal investing, too, and the threads usually get locked eventually.

Expense ratio on ESGV is 0.12% so that's really not a barrier any more. It's top holdings are Apple, Microsoft, Alphabet, Amazon, Facebook, Chase, VISA, Proctor and Gamble, Bank of America, and ATT. With that list it will perform similar to S&P 500. Do those companies meet your screen? Is Facebook more socially conscious than a defense contractor? That's the conundrum you can get into.

My recommendation is a strategy of offsets. Invest in the total market then donate to the charities that are important to you. Not everyone will agree with that. I try to keep my investments separate from my political and personal beliefs but some people prefer not to do that. You have choices and consequences from those choices.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by MotoTrojan »

stan1 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:31 pm My recommendation is a strategy of offsets. Invest in the total market then donate to the charities that are important to you. Not everyone will agree with that. I try to keep my investments separate from my political and personal beliefs but some people prefer not to do that. You have choices and consequences from those choices.
+1
UpperNwGuy
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by UpperNwGuy »

There are disagreements within the Christian faith as to which activities are not biblical, so it would be nearly impossible to define a list of companies that offers only products and services that are biblical in nature.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Keenobserver »

charis23 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:19 pm Hi, are there any Christians or other religious folks that take their faith into account when making investment decisions? I'm a Christian and recently came across the idea of Biblically responsible investing (BRI) and am curious if other believers have considered adjusting their portfolios. For example, it may not be pleasing God to profit from the sale of unethical products which if you owned a total stock market fund (VTI/VTSMX), you would potentially profit from. There's been a lot more development in the ESG space with funds catering to socially conscious or religious people but right now most do not have very long track records and/or high fees.

One definition of BRI I liked found https://christianinvestmentforum.org/bi ... about-bri/ is:
"BRI is an investment decision making process that applies Christian values to issues facing shareholders and stakeholders regarding moral and social principles. This coupled with traditional financial analysis provides a platform for investment decisions that allows us to be faithful stewards of God’s gifts and respect the foundational beliefs of our shared Christian faith."
Hopefully this topic is allowed since I felt like it might be quite relevant to a subset of Bogleheads.

[Please keep replies focused on the investing/financial aspects and avoid religious references - moderator prudent]
I have struggled with this. I definately take my faith into consideration and after much digging and scratching finally decided to with shariah complaint funds..namely Amana and HLAL. They have higher costs but its the price I have to pay to feel at peace. It was a difficult decision but I felt i had to go with what I am comfortable with.
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cashboy
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by cashboy »

there are several threads on this 'general' topic that approach it from different 'angles'.

how 'to invest' only in things you support (regardless of what that is).

how 'not to invest' in things you do not support (regardless of what that is).

for faith related investing, or non-faith related investing (ex: someone being a vegetarian), the approach is the same. research. but, you will find your choices limited and your can never be 100% sure that your choice is what you think it is.
Last edited by cashboy on Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by dm200 »

charis23 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:19 pm Hi, are there any Christians or other religious folks that take their faith into account when making investment decisions? I'm a Christian and recently came across the idea of Biblically responsible investing (BRI) and am curious if other believers have considered adjusting their portfolios. For example, it may not be pleasing God to profit from the sale of unethical products which if you owned a total stock market fund (VTI/VTSMX), you would potentially profit from. There's been a lot more development in the ESG space with funds catering to socially conscious or religious people but right now most do not have very long track records and/or high fees.
One definition of BRI I liked found https://christianinvestmentforum.org/bi ... about-bri/ is:
"BRI is an investment decision making process that applies Christian values to issues facing shareholders and stakeholders regarding moral and social principles. This coupled with traditional financial analysis provides a platform for investment decisions that allows us to be faithful stewards of God’s gifts and respect the foundational beliefs of our shared Christian faith."
Hopefully this topic is allowed since I felt like it might be quite relevant to a subset of Bogleheads.
This is very similar to ethics based investing. While I would want to invest in ethically based mutual funds, companies or products, I have concluded that this is nearly impossible, for several reasons:
1. Many, many large companies have so many product lines, there are little or no "pure plays" today.
2. As far as mutual funds are concerned, their choices often do not match mine. For example, I might view nuclear power plants as "good" because they do not use fossil fuels - while others view them as bad because of the risks of nuclear energy. Or, I might view defense contractors as bad because they sell war products, while others might them as good because such products defend us from attack and those companies may also make commercial airliners. Some may not invest in meat packers because they believe production and consumption of meat is very bad for health and climate.
3. My one, nearly clearcut, opinion is that tobacco companies are bad. Even there, some tobacco companies are part of larger entities that make food products, etc.

Maybe (?) some kinds of investing/stock ownership can give you the opportunity (as a stock holder) to oppose a corporation's actions. Some Catholic orders of nuns are doing this.

As far as "Christian Values", I have concluded that there are many, varying conclusions and opinions are as to what "Christian Values" includes and does not include. Or, perhaps, might having "Christian values" exclude businesses with a large number or percentage of "non-Christians" - such as Muslims, Jews, Hindus, and so on. Finally, you might ask whether any investment choices you (and those like you) really make.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by BogleMelon »

Back in time, when people disagreed ethically with the slaving system, but couldn't change it, they were buying the slaves and free them. If you can, buy all the shares of those unethical (to you) companies and bankrupt them! If you can't, then buy the stocks anyways (under total stock fund), but make those companies not gaining any money from you but not buying their products. If enough people did that, the stocks of those companies will go to zero, regardless of how many investors are buying the total stock fund, and the companies will bankrupt as well. Otherwise, take their profits "as a shareholder under dividends and/or capital gains" and donate them to good causes.
Last edited by BogleMelon on Fri Jan 03, 2020 3:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by HEDGEFUNDIE »

Jack FFR1846 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:29 pm As with any investment, you're not giving the company a dime. You're buying from the previous holder of the stock. So to stay away from faith based and shift to say Green considerations, you might buy Berkshire Wind stock, supporting wind generated electricity only to find that you've paid the previous stock holder, who happened to be T Boone Pikens, who plans to layer his lawn with a foot of crude oil using the money you paid for that stock.
The companies you invest in don’t get a dime from you but you get lots of dimes from them. And therein lies the ethical issue.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Vanguard Fan 1367 »

I tried this some years ago with a new fund, “The Timothy Fund”

My experience with their performance and record keeping led me to prefer Vanguard and other low cost Companies. I support charities with the successful investments.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Ferdinand2014 »

charis23 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:19 pm Hi, are there any Christians or other religious folks that take their faith into account when making investment decisions? I'm a Christian and recently came across the idea of Biblically responsible investing (BRI) and am curious if other believers have considered adjusting their portfolios. For example, it may not be pleasing God to profit from the sale of unethical products which if you owned a total stock market fund (VTI/VTSMX), you would potentially profit from. There's been a lot more development in the ESG space with funds catering to socially conscious or religious people but right now most do not have very long track records and/or high fees.

One definition of BRI I liked found https://christianinvestmentforum.org/bi ... about-bri/ is:
"BRI is an investment decision making process that applies Christian values to issues facing shareholders and stakeholders regarding moral and social principles. This coupled with traditional financial analysis provides a platform for investment decisions that allows us to be faithful stewards of God’s gifts and respect the foundational beliefs of our shared Christian faith."
Hopefully this topic is allowed since I felt like it might be quite relevant to a subset of Bogleheads.

[Please keep replies focused on the investing/financial aspects and avoid religious references - moderator prudent]
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by finfire »

I'd like to know about the flip side. Has anyone purposely adopted a "sinful" portfolio and thrived/sunk? What did the portfolio consist of?
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by MN-Investor »

Since you are buying the shares from another investor, and, when selling, selling to another investor, the company gets no money from you. What do you get from the company? Dividends. And you will benefit if the value of the stock does go up, but that value is paid to you by another investor.

In the whole grand scheme of things, if you own an index fund which invests in the total stock market, the amount you have invested in any one company is fairly minuscule.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by LadyGeek »

Religion is a highly contentious topic, much more so than politics. I removed a post containing a Biblical quotation. Please refrain from religious content. As a reminder, see: Politics and Religion
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Texanbybirth »

I like to think I'm trying really hard to be a good Christian. As such, I've looked into investing according to certain Christian principles. (You and I may not agree on certain ones, but we can probably agree on some big ones.) However, I've decided it's not worth the "cost" (a purposely broad term), and I've even heard some Christian investment managers on TV or radio shows espouse their views in a way that makes me not want to give them management fee money.

My reasoning stems from a test known as "remote, proximate, or direct/immediate participation". I don't see my ownership of Vanguard's 2050 TD retirement fund as anything other than remote participation in any evil a company may be doing. There are also some gray areas as to what evil a company can actually do versus its employees. It's quite a dense topic, but I see it as more fruitful (and fun) to discuss philosophically (over beer or wine preferably) than to try to implement it into an actual investment strategy. That would also mean putting a lot of moral trust (on top of the other kinds of trust we already put with them) into the hands of the portfolio management team.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Jags4186 »

What I can assure you is that whether or not you own a "vice" company in the TSM or SP500 they will continue doing whatever they're going to do.

I say take the Bill Gates approach -- invest for maximum return and then use the proceeds to help fund causes you support.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by TomatoTomahto »

MN-Investor wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:13 pm Since you are buying the shares from another investor, and, when selling, selling to another investor, the company gets no money from you.
True enough, but the company does benefit from much lower share dilution in making stock based executive compensation. Cheaper to grant 100 shares than 1000 for the same employee’s perceived compensation effect.

ETA: my wife’s compensation is significantly RSU based. We always want the stock price to go down before grants and up before vesting. 😁
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Sandtrap »

charis23 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:19 pm Hi, are there any Christians or other religious folks that take their faith into account when making investment decisions? I'm a Christian and recently came across the idea of Biblically responsible investing (BRI) and am curious if other believers have considered adjusting their portfolios. For example, it may not be pleasing God to profit from the sale of unethical products which if you owned a total stock market fund (VTI/VTSMX), you would potentially profit from. There's been a lot more development in the ESG space with funds catering to socially conscious or religious people but right now most do not have very long track records and/or high fees.

One definition of BRI I liked found https://christianinvestmentforum.org/bi ... about-bri/ is:
"BRI is an investment decision making process that applies Christian values to issues facing shareholders and stakeholders regarding moral and social principles. This coupled with traditional financial analysis provides a platform for investment decisions that allows us to be faithful stewards of God’s gifts and respect the foundational beliefs of our shared Christian faith."
Hopefully this topic is allowed since I felt like it might be quite relevant to a subset of Bogleheads.

[Please keep replies focused on the investing/financial aspects and avoid religious references - moderator prudent]
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by downshiftme »

With any faith based investments, I would also caution you to beware of affinity fraud. That is, people who pose as the same faith or other affiliation as you, presumably to more easily gain a position of trust. Due diligence is always needed when evaluating investments and investment advisers, but even more so when there is some affinity or affiliation that might tempt you to be less discerning than you might otherwise be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity_fraud

https://www.investor.gov/protect-your-i ... nity-fraud

https://www.sec.gov/investor/pubs/affinity.htm
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by dm200 »

Many decades ago, South Africa still maintained its "Apartheid" system. There were many stockholder efforts of many public corporations that these corporations stop doing business in South Africa - as a way of protesting Apartheid there. IBM was one of those targeted companies.

Did these stockholder initiatives help make a difference? I don't know - BUT I suspect that, when put together, these stockholder initiatives when put together with all of the other international initiatives and actions - may very well have made a difference. I do know and recall that such annual IBM stockholder proposed resolutions, etc. got a lot of negative publicity for IBM. As I recall, these proposed resolutions never even came close to winning, but that annual publicity was something I am sure IBM did not like.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by bertilak »

finfire wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:11 pm I'd like to know about the flip side. Has anyone purposely adopted a "sinful" portfolio and thrived/sunk? What did the portfolio consist of?
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Daryl »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:36 pm ...invest for maximum return and then use the proceeds to help fund causes you support.
This is the approach that I've taken. It has worked out very well for me and the causes I support.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by fsh71 »

Rather than looking for a specialty fund, (which is almost certainly not going to align with your particular convictions given the wide range of interpretations in modern Christianity), you might consider buying the S&P for your equity component, then researching the individual stocks that make up the index, and identifying the handful that you have issues with. Then short those particular stocks to offset your investment in them.

More work? Yes. But you'll be holding something that will likely track the S&P very closely, and will align best with your particular beliefs.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by koala2 »

I am a pastor in a mainline denomination and have wrestled with this question over the years. Hope my thoughts are helpful to anyone who also wonders about this.
A lot of our portfolio could be described as “faith or values based.” The 403b with my denomination only offers “ESG” funds with clearly defined criteria. These are private funds with expense ratios of .1-.8%, all track some major index, and exclude certain companies, industries, and/or countries. I won’t go into details of the "exclusionary" values (some might find the topic too political), but to share just one example, funds do not have any tobacco company holdings. I’m happy with the retirement options (despite the expense ratios) mostly for the generous match I receive.
Here’s my take on the whole faith driven investing thing (or “ESG” for that matter)… Your investing life is only a small part of your footprint on the world around you. On one end of the spectrum, you can easily get paralyzed over worry that you’re not socially responsible enough. I even know some folks who refuse to invest and just keep cash because they fear “doing wrong” by mistakenly investing in the next “bad” company (however that may be defined). On the other end of the spectrum, you can easily throw ethics out the window entirely and be consumed with greed. Find some happy medium that will help you sleep at night. If nothing is available based off your set of ideals, I still think one ought to take a step back and consider the big picture.
Here are some other things/actions that arguably have a GREATER impact on the world around me… Am I generous with my time and volunteer? Do I vote in local/state/national elections? Do I value relationships, or do I think material things will bring me the most happiness? Do I shop local whoever possible? Do I support the vendors at my farmers market? Am I showing compassion each day? Am I generous with my money to charity (and increasing giving each year)? The list goes on. Faith driven investing can be nice, but I think it is only one small piece of the pie.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Horton »

Good question.

I think the only viable way to avoid specific companies and/or issues is to evaluate the companies yourself and buy individual stocks. Unless you are an investment professional, this is a difficult and time consuming task. It may also be impossible if you are investing in a retirement plan with a limited menu of investment options.

The best thing to do instead is probably to buy a broad index; that way you are not overallocating to any particular company, issue, or theme.

Yes, there may be certain money managers out there who advertise their ability to do this, but they often charge extremely high fees. Is it worth the cost and how do you ensure that their process meets your needs? It’s just not feasible, IMHO.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by dm200 »

koala2 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:55 pm I am a pastor in a mainline denomination and have wrestled with this question over the years. Hope my thoughts are helpful to anyone who also wonders about this.
A lot of our portfolio could be described as “faith or values based.” The 403b with my denomination only offers “ESG” funds with clearly defined criteria. These are private funds with expense ratios of .1-.8%, all track some major index, and exclude certain companies, industries, and/or countries. I won’t go into details of the "exclusionary" values (some might find the topic too political), but to share just one example, funds do not have any tobacco company holdings. I’m happy with the retirement options (despite the expense ratios) mostly for the generous match I receive.
Here’s my take on the whole faith driven investing thing (or “ESG” for that matter)… Your investing life is only a small part of your footprint on the world around you. On one end of the spectrum, you can easily get paralyzed over worry that you’re not socially responsible enough. I even know some folks who refuse to invest and just keep cash because they fear “doing wrong” by mistakenly investing in the next “bad” company (however that may be defined). On the other end of the spectrum, you can easily throw ethics out the window entirely and be consumed with greed. Find some happy medium that will help you sleep at night. If nothing is available based off your set of ideals, I still think one ought to take a step back and consider the big picture.
Here are some other things/actions that arguably have a GREATER impact on the world around me… Am I generous with my time and volunteer? Do I vote in local/state/national elections? Do I value relationships, or do I think material things will bring me the most happiness? Do I shop local whoever possible? Do I support the vendors at my farmers market? Am I showing compassion each day? Am I generous with my money to charity (and increasing giving each year)? The list goes on. Faith driven investing can be nice, but I think it is only one small piece of the pie.
Very good, in my opinion. This demonstrates very well, in my opinion, some of the challenges involved.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by willthrill81 »

I really don't see how this topic can be addressed within the forum's rules.

But I'll say this: avoidance of companies supporting products which you dislike (for whatever reason) can be very difficult. If someone doesn't like alcohol, for instance, it can be very difficult to not do business with companies that sell it. In our area, for instance, every grocery store sells alcohol, and every restaurant except some fast-food places sell it as well.
koala2 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:55 pm Here are some other things/actions that arguably have a GREATER impact on the world around me… Am I generous with my time and volunteer? Do I vote in local/state/national elections? Do I value relationships, or do I think material things will bring me the most happiness? Do I shop local whoever possible? Do I support the vendors at my farmers market? Am I showing compassion each day? Am I generous with my money to charity (and increasing giving each year)? The list goes on. Faith driven investing can be nice, but I think it is only one small piece of the pie.
I agree.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by youngpleb »

If I morally disagree with a company (which I think is the basic theme of this thread), I don't see a problem with investing in said company. At the very least, every dollar they pay me in dividends is one less dollar that they will have. Plus, like others have said, it's not like the money I pay for the stock (or mutual fund in my case) actually goes to said company. Granted the dividends come directly from the profits and therefore activities of the company, but I can use those dollars for something I deem as good.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by RickBoglehead »

Gotta ask. Where do you fuel your car? Does that company match your religious investing? Buy groceries?
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by bertilak »

Although I personally think it is a mistake to try to invest in a "faith driven way," given that there are so many ways it can be defined, I DO see the point of it: People may realize that owning stock in a company in no way contributes to that company BUT may be uncomfortable living off the proceeds of a company's anti-faith activities.

There can also be legitimate discomfort in being associated, in any way, with the company. I do think this smacks of "virtue signalling" which may be as distasteful to me as whatever the company's purported anti-faith activity is to faith-driven investors.
Last edited by bertilak on Fri Jan 03, 2020 6:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by rob »

There is no way to respond without getting a forum warning... There are lots of ways of subsetting the market to get better results... Maybe this is better than others, maybe worse.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by littlebird »

downshiftme wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:49 pm With any faith based investments, I would also caution you to beware of affinity fraud. That is, people who pose as the same faith or other affiliation as you, presumably to more easily gain a position of trust. Due diligence is always needed when evaluating investments and investment advisers, but even more so when there is some affinity or affiliation that might tempt you to be less discerning than you might otherwise be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Affinity_fraud

https://www.investor.gov/protect-your-i ... nity-fraud

https://www.sec.gov/investor/pubs/affinity.htm
For those too young to remember:

https://www.bizjournals.com/phoenix/new ... on-of.html

Numerous well-meaning elderly in my community were defrauded and rendered nearly destitute .
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by surfstar »

All of our shares are FSM* compliant.

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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Ivygirl »

Probably the closest would be to invest in one's own business. Real estate investment trusts (REITs) could be an option.

I see the market as a whole as a great human good and do not require it to be specifically Christian to invest in it. All of these things are passing away but while we are here we use them.
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F150HD
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by F150HD »

charis23 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:19 pm Hi, are there any Christians or other religious folks that take their faith into account when making investment decisions? I'm a Christian and recently came across the idea of Biblically responsible investing (BRI) and am curious if other believers have considered adjusting their portfolios. For example, it may not be pleasing God to profit from the sale of unethical products which if you owned a total stock market fund (VTI/VTSMX), you would potentially profit from. There's been a lot more development in the ESG space with funds catering to socially conscious or religious people but right now most do not have very long track records and/or high fees.

One definition of BRI I liked found https://christianinvestmentforum.org/bi ... about-bri/ is:
"BRI is an investment decision making process that applies Christian values to issues facing shareholders and stakeholders regarding moral and social principles. This coupled with traditional financial analysis provides a platform for investment decisions that allows us to be faithful stewards of God’s gifts and respect the foundational beliefs of our shared Christian faith."
Hopefully this topic is allowed since I felt like it might be quite relevant to a subset of Bogleheads.

[Please keep replies focused on the investing/financial aspects and avoid religious references - moderator prudent]
Have you looked here?

https://avemariafunds.com/

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Mr. Rumples
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Mr. Rumples »

There are several mutual funds which cater to faith based investors.

https://www.kiplinger.com/article/inves ... stors.html

We had a neighbor who only bought bonds issued by churches. There are several websites devoted to these bonds which are frequently secured by having the first mortgage. I think he bought his in demonizations of $1,000. He would buy them and hold them to maturity with rates better than CD's.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by z3r0c00l »

There are already lots of faith based options for getting great wealth with minimal effort. The good news is you won't have to search long, and it is as easy as mailing in a check to a wealth ministry. Someone will get wealthy anyway!

Anything related to faith in the financial realm would, like things targeting the military or elderly, set off lots of alarm bells for me. These are some of the most frequently exploited populations because they are known to be vulnerable to schemes like these either due to senility, economic vulnerability, or naked credulity.
Last edited by z3r0c00l on Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Tdubs »

I would be concerned that any BRI fund would be an excuse for a high ER.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Vanguard Fan 1367 »

finfire wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:11 pm I'd like to know about the flip side. Has anyone purposely adopted a "sinful" portfolio and thrived/sunk? What did the portfolio consist of?
[ quote fixed by admin LadyGeek]

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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by LadyGeek »

This thread is now in the Investing - Theory, News & General forum (general discussion).
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. »

there's always the talmud portfolio:
The Timeless Talmud Strategy And Its Role In Asset Allocation. ... This strategy divides a portfolio into 3 parts: Equity (stocks -- business), Real Estate Invetment Trusts (REITs -- land) and Fixed Income (bonds & cash -- reserve)

source: https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... +portfolio
Have you read, "The Richest Man In Babylon"? Similar principles, putting money into business that earns profit, putting money toward land, a part of what you earn is yours to keep (reserves), not keeping up with the Jones', etc.

source: https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... in+babylon
It's "Stay" the course, not Stray the Course. Buy and Hold works. You should really try it sometime. Get a plan: www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Investment_policy_statement
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by oldcomputerguy »

Mr. Rumples wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:14 pm We had a neighbor who only bought bonds issued by churches. There are several websites devoted to these bonds which are frequently secured by having the first mortgage. I think he bought his in demonizations of $1,000. He would buy them and hold them to maturity with rates better than CD's.
Um, I think you mean "denominations".
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by rob »

The ACT ETF might be suitable https://www.morningstar.com/etfs/xnas/act/portfolio. Has some great long term solid companies, with some potentially exciting growth potential with new developments.

Although maybe we have a different definition "faith based".
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Darth Vanguard »

If you attempt this with a mutual fund, just make sure the fund has a high alpha and omega.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by Tdubs »

F150HD wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 7:10 pm
charis23 wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 2:19 pm Hi, are there any Christians or other religious folks that take their faith into account when making investment decisions? I'm a Christian and recently came across the idea of Biblically responsible investing (BRI) and am curious if other believers have considered adjusting their portfolios. For example, it may not be pleasing God to profit from the sale of unethical products which if you owned a total stock market fund (VTI/VTSMX), you would potentially profit from. There's been a lot more development in the ESG space with funds catering to socially conscious or religious people but right now most do not have very long track records and/or high fees.

One definition of BRI I liked found https://christianinvestmentforum.org/bi ... about-bri/ is:
"BRI is an investment decision making process that applies Christian values to issues facing shareholders and stakeholders regarding moral and social principles. This coupled with traditional financial analysis provides a platform for investment decisions that allows us to be faithful stewards of God’s gifts and respect the foundational beliefs of our shared Christian faith."
Hopefully this topic is allowed since I felt like it might be quite relevant to a subset of Bogleheads.

[Please keep replies focused on the investing/financial aspects and avoid religious references - moderator prudent]
Have you looked here?

https://avemariafunds.com/

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And the ERs are. . . 0.97 ER for a growth fund. 1.1% on the Value Fund. World fund is 1.26%. Someone is profiting off your values.

Why not put your money in a typical TSM fund like VTI and give your ER savings to a charity with low overhead?
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by CyclingDuo »

finfire wrote: Fri Jan 03, 2020 4:11 pmI'd like to know about the flip side. Has anyone purposely adopted a "sinful" portfolio and thrived/sunk? What did the portfolio consist of?
Well, many fall under the label of being defensive stocks.

Tobacco Sin Stocks
Alcohol Sin Stocks
Gambling Sin Stocks
Defense Sin Stocks
Crime & Prison Sin Stocks
Marijuana Sin Stocks
Financial Sin Stocks
Sex Sin Stocks

https://sinstocksreport.com/list-of-sin-stocks/
https://www.fool.com/investing/2018/10/ ... tocks.aspx

You can do it through ETF's as well...

https://www.thebalance.com/mutual-funds ... ks-2466800
https://investorplace.com/2018/08/5-vic ... nning-for/
https://www.ft.com/content/f70e45d2-91a ... 9df1c62544
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by MathWizard »

My take on socially screened investing is that would never have the effect I wanted it to.

My solution is to use total stock market, and then to give to charities that will work to correct problems that are created.
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Re: Faith driven investing

Post by geerhardusvos »

It can’t be discussed in detail here, but faith and investing have nothing to do with each other other than being a good steward of your money. Not related to religion at all, if you are passionate about a specific social cars and you don’t want to invest in the market because some companies in the market don’t follow the guidelines of your ideal social or moral cause, you won’t be a good investor. very likely you will still be investing in a company that has people there who don’t stand for what you stand for, so it’s borderline hypocritical to try to invest from a moral perspective. All companies are the same and are trying to drive shareholder value and customer value and growth. They will go in and out with the tides of the social norms of the day. Especially in the US historically with less corruption and fraud than other markets, you have no reason not to invest in the market if you want to make money. As you accumulate wealth and are a good steward of that wealth, you can distribute it accordingly to your church, family, friends, causes
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