Inside Fisher Investments

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
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JAZZISCOOL
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by JAZZISCOOL » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:43 pm

P & I today:

Los Angeles Fire & Police ended Fisher Investments' $551 million active international equity allocation over founder Ken Fisher's comments.

https://www.pionline.com/pension-funds/

(pay wall)

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Quercus Palustris
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Quercus Palustris » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:59 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:50 pm
Well, I found it interesting because I really didn't know what went on inside Fisher. It was kind of a black hole. I mean there has been reams of articles and forum posts written about Edwards Jones. It looks like Fisher is just an upscale version of Edward Jones. There is certainly a Glengarry Glen Ross quality to the article: "WHERE ARE THE LEADS!!!" I guess in retrospect what else do you expect.

So glad we have Bogleheads.
:beer After seeing how angry Richard Roma got over losing $6000 (...and a Cadillac), I can't imagine the yelling going on at Fisher HQ over the lost AUM fees!

(Of course, that's in 1992 dollars - not sure a '92 Caddy would have appreciated as much)

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by abuss368 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:23 pm

Interesting. We have received the random telephone calls years ago.
John C. Bogle - Two Fund Portfolio: Total Stock & Total Bond. "Simplicity is the master key to financial success."

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Forester
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Forester » Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:56 pm

JAZZISCOOL wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:43 pm
P & I today:

Los Angeles Fire & Police ended Fisher Investments' $551 million active international equity allocation over founder Ken Fisher's comments.

https://www.pionline.com/pension-funds/

(pay wall)
Yes it's just dogpiling & herd mentality at this point. I guarantee a mass hysteria will also force Vanguard / Blackrock to do something dumb also, whatever that drama turns out to be.

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Artful Dodger
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Artful Dodger » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:06 pm

I posted this a year ago...

I'll be happy to share my experience with Fisher.

We were with them 3 1/2 to 4 years from shortly after the last meltdown in 08/09 to early 2013. Previous to that I had bought stocks / mutual funds and actively "managed" them. I was looking to simplify and focus on my business. Their sales pitch was they could beat the indexes, and had done so in the past. I believe that they believe their spiel. They had regular investor gatherings close to where we lived, and spent a lot of time explaining how they were investing our money. They did a top down analysis starting with different industry groups and world sectors, then drilled down to the individual stocks in those categories that they thought would out perform. Spared no expense in feeding us and educating us on their outlook. Sometimes, they would have a video feed of Ken Fisher, and he would take questions from the audience. Just so you know, they buy individual stocks, and at the time I was with them, they compared their returns to the MSCI World index. At no time, did they ever talk about asset allocation. I also found out, they pretty much put everyone in the same stocks, so it was almost like being part of a mutual fund. I had around $800k at the time, and I think my AUM fee was 1.5%.

Late 2012, I started doing more investment reading, and it included a small book by Jack Bogle about index investing, and the historical proof of a simple index approach vs active management. I then started to wonder if I was really getting the best results from Fisher. I looked at their results vs the MSCI index, and while there were some up years, in the most recent, they trailed the index by almost 10 points. Add their performance variance to their AUM fees, and I calculated over the time I was with them, I would have been $90k ahead, had I put my money into the US market and International market index funds that I read about in Bogles book. Add in a few idiosyncrasies - (my ROTH which was a hodgepodge of stocks plus a high income fund, outperformed them, and they sold all my Apple stock when I moved to them, then bought it back after it had gone up 150%), and I thought it was time to move. But, by far, the most compelling reason was I would have been so much farther ahead had I simply followed the advice in Bogles book on index investing.

I had to call my Fisher guy, and he spent more time than what was reasonable telling me what a mistake I was making.

I had a long term relationship with Fidelity, and they set up the transfer from Fisher's administrator, to them. I set an asset allocation and moved almost all funds to low cost Fidelity index funds, and some to their managed bond fund. It was the best decision I've made regarding investments. A few years later, I found this board, and it has been a great resource.

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Artful Dodger
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Artful Dodger » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:18 pm

A lot of the criticism of Ken Fisher was due to his sexist remark at an investment conference. Basically he said the process of winning clients was like trying to get into a girl's pants. This put his firm into the worst light. If and when you're looking for a financial adviser / asset manager, you want someone that is looking out for your interests, not someone who's going to manipulate you and use you.

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SlowMovingInvestor
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by SlowMovingInvestor » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:32 pm

Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:59 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I was having lunch with a friend a few weeks back. Low and behold he has money with fisher and is very happy with them. I pointed out the fee's he is paying (which are substantial) and he does not care. He says he got 20% return on a 60/40 portfolio this year and they did tax loss selling for him too. You can't confer a benefit on an unwilling recipient.

Dave
Did he really get 20%, though ? Does Fisher's web site really show customers a properly calculated rate of return ?

sabhen
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by sabhen » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:39 pm

A few weeks ago, I got a call from one of their salespeople before this media in SF event came to light. There was no compelling reason I heard that would lead me to invest with them. I don't trust salesmen or smooth-talking CEOs or commercials or anybody who has a vested interest in getting in my pocketbook. I firmly pushed back and that was it.

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Dave55 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:43 pm

SlowMovingInvestor wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:32 pm
Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:59 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I was having lunch with a friend a few weeks back. Low and behold he has money with fisher and is very happy with them. I pointed out the fee's he is paying (which are substantial) and he does not care. He says he got 20% return on a 60/40 portfolio this year and they did tax loss selling for him too. You can't confer a benefit on an unwilling recipient.

Dave
Did he really get 20%, though ? Does Fisher's web site really show customers a properly calculated rate of return ?
He said he did. He is a very savvy business owner, very successful, so I take his word for it. He may have been in CEF fixed income (highly leveraged) and they may have used leverage on his equities too.

Dave

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:57 pm

Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:43 pm
SlowMovingInvestor wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:32 pm
Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:59 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I was having lunch with a friend a few weeks back. Low and behold he has money with fisher and is very happy with them. I pointed out the fee's he is paying (which are substantial) and he does not care. He says he got 20% return on a 60/40 portfolio this year and they did tax loss selling for him too. You can't confer a benefit on an unwilling recipient.

Dave
Did he really get 20%, though ? Does Fisher's web site really show customers a properly calculated rate of return ?
He said he did. He is a very savvy business owner, very successful, so I take his word for it. He may have been in CEF fixed income (highly leveraged) and they may have used leverage on his equities too.

Dave
total U.S. stock is up 22% ytd (total international stock is up 14.72% ytd)

If he had 60% in US equities that would provide 13.2% of total return.

Would he have no international equities at all? Sure it would've lowered returns, but is he taking country risk?

That being said, in order to make up the other 6.8% from the 40% fixed income, the return on fixed income would need to be 17%

total bond market's up 8.38% ytd

so methinks either:
1. leverage is being used
2. junk bonds are being used
3. the 60/40 Fisher portfolio didn't earn 20% ytd.

either way, you're looking at higher risk to obtain higher yield. A 60/40 (all U.S.) would be up around 16.5% ytd, not 20%. So something's going on here. But I'm glad he hates annuities.
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

Dave55
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Dave55 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:08 pm

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:57 pm
Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:43 pm
SlowMovingInvestor wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:32 pm
Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:59 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I was having lunch with a friend a few weeks back. Low and behold he has money with fisher and is very happy with them. I pointed out the fee's he is paying (which are substantial) and he does not care. He says he got 20% return on a 60/40 portfolio this year and they did tax loss selling for him too. You can't confer a benefit on an unwilling recipient.

Dave
Did he really get 20%, though ? Does Fisher's web site really show customers a properly calculated rate of return ?
He said he did. He is a very savvy business owner, very successful, so I take his word for it. He may have been in CEF fixed income (highly leveraged) and they may have used leverage on his equities too.

Dave
total U.S. stock is up 22% ytd (total international stock is up 14.72% ytd)

If he had 60% in US equities that would provide 13.2% of total return.

Would he have no international equities at all? Not Sure
Sure it would've lowered returns, but is he taking country risk? Don't know

That being said, in order to make up the other 6.8% from the 40% fixed income, the return on fixed income would need to be 17%

total bond market's up 8.38% ytd

so methinks either:
1. leverage is being used- possible
2. junk bonds are being used - possible
3. the 60/40 Fisher portfolio didn't earn 20% ytd.

either way, you're looking at higher risk to obtain higher yield. A 60/40 (all U.S.) would be up around 16.5% ytd, not 20%. So something's going on here. But I'm glad he hates annuities.

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SlowMovingInvestor
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by SlowMovingInvestor » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:20 pm

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:57 pm

total U.S. stock is up 22% ytd (total international stock is up 14.72% ytd)

If he had 60% in US equities that would provide 13.2% of total return.

Would he have no international equities at all? Sure it would've lowered returns, but is he taking country risk?

That being said, in order to make up the other 6.8% from the 40% fixed income, the return on fixed income would need to be 17%

total bond market's up 8.38% ytd

so methinks either:
1. leverage is being used
2. junk bonds are being used
3. the 60/40 Fisher portfolio didn't earn 20% ytd.

either way, you're looking at higher risk to obtain higher yield. A 60/40 (all U.S.) would be up around 16.5% ytd, not 20%. So something's going on here. But I'm glad he hates annuities.
One also needs to add the extra amount needed for fees to your calculation.

But the stocks selected may have beaten the market. Not common, and no reason to expect it to recur, but it does happen.

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:29 pm

SlowMovingInvestor wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:20 pm
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:57 pm

total U.S. stock is up 22% ytd (total international stock is up 14.72% ytd)

If he had 60% in US equities that would provide 13.2% of total return.

Would he have no international equities at all? Sure it would've lowered returns, but is he taking country risk?

That being said, in order to make up the other 6.8% from the 40% fixed income, the return on fixed income would need to be 17%

total bond market's up 8.38% ytd

so methinks either:
1. leverage is being used
2. junk bonds are being used
3. the 60/40 Fisher portfolio didn't earn 20% ytd.

either way, you're looking at higher risk to obtain higher yield. A 60/40 (all U.S.) would be up around 16.5% ytd, not 20%. So something's going on here. But I'm glad he hates annuities.
good points.

at least the pension funds that removed their $2 billion got out before Fisher reverted to the mean.
One also needs to add the extra amount needed for fees to your calculation.

But the stocks selected may have beaten the market. Not common, and no reason to expect it to recur, but it does happen.
good points.

at least the pension funds removed their $2 billion before Fisher mean-reverts.
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

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JoMoney
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by JoMoney » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:35 pm

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:29 pm
... at least the pension funds removed their $2 billion before Fisher mean-reverts.
But are they just moving it over to another high-fee active manager? For some reason the news articles don't seem to be talking about institutions removing their funds out of concerns about fees or performance.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

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unclescrooge
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by unclescrooge » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:42 pm

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:57 pm
Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:43 pm
SlowMovingInvestor wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:32 pm
Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:59 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I was having lunch with a friend a few weeks back. Low and behold he has money with fisher and is very happy with them. I pointed out the fee's he is paying (which are substantial) and he does not care. He says he got 20% return on a 60/40 portfolio this year and they did tax loss selling for him too. You can't confer a benefit on an unwilling recipient.

Dave
Did he really get 20%, though ? Does Fisher's web site really show customers a properly calculated rate of return ?
He said he did. He is a very savvy business owner, very successful, so I take his word for it. He may have been in CEF fixed income (highly leveraged) and they may have used leverage on his equities too.

Dave
total U.S. stock is up 22% ytd (total international stock is up 14.72% ytd)

If he had 60% in US equities that would provide 13.2% of total return.

Would he have no international equities at all? Sure it would've lowered returns, but is he taking country risk?

That being said, in order to make up the other 6.8% from the 40% fixed income, the return on fixed income would need to be 17%

total bond market's up 8.38% ytd

so methinks either:
1. leverage is being used
2. junk bonds are being used
3. the 60/40 Fisher portfolio didn't earn 20% ytd.

either way, you're looking at higher risk to obtain higher yield. A 60/40 (all U.S.) would be up around 16.5% ytd, not 20%. So something's going on here. But I'm glad he hates annuities.
He was probably in 100% equities. I don't think they do custom portfolios.

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JoMoney
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by JoMoney » Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:29 pm

unclescrooge wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:42 pm
...
He was probably in 100% equities. I don't think they do custom portfolios.
Most of their portfolios are individually "custom", often even picking individual stocks/bonds for a portfolio... which makes measuring the results of customers across the firm particularly difficult.
https://www.fisherinvestments.com/en-us ... portfolios
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

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JAZZISCOOL
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by JAZZISCOOL » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:05 pm

The NY Times also has an article on Fisher. It mentions performance towards the end:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/10/23/busi ... e=Homepage

"It is hard to gauge the performance of those investments because the firm does not focus on traditional mutual funds. But some past Fisher funds with publicly available numbers have underperformed the market substantially.

The Purisima Total Return Fund, a mutual fund that Mr. Fisher managed, had a return of almost 25 percent in the 10 years before its liquidation in 2016, according to Bloomberg data. Yet over the same period, investments in the S&P 500 would have risen roughly 100 percent."

Ocean77
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Ocean77 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:16 pm

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 6:57 pm

so methinks either:
1. leverage is being used
2. junk bonds are being used
3. the 60/40 Fisher portfolio didn't earn 20% ytd.
Or it could be:
4. He is just lucky this year, as active managers sometimes are.

Maybe it happens to be the first year in a long time that Fisher actually outperforms. And he felt so elated about that that he made those lewd comments? :wink:
I mean, if he had outperformed year after year, why would this client just state the YTD return (20%) instead of the long term results? And why would there be any tax loss selling to begin with?
Last edited by Ocean77 on Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TimeRunner
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by TimeRunner » Thu Oct 24, 2019 10:18 pm

The Purisima name comes from "Purisima Rd, Woodside CA". The Fishers lived in the last house on that road (with an incredible view of redwood forests and the Pacific Coast) starting in the mid-late 1990s. Don't know when they moved to Washington state, but I'm sure California taxes had nothing to do with it. :)
One cannot enlighten the unconscious.

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Johnnie
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Johnnie » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:11 pm

CAsage wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:29 pm
I'm very ignorant - why would Fidelity have investments with Fisher? I thought that was their job? Was he/that firm listed as one of their active managers from a fund? Otherwise.... Yeah, I'd dump him in a NY minute.
I had the same question about the state of Michigan's pension fund managers, who according to Detroit News pulled the $600 million they had with Fisher. They are also heavy in private equity.

https://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/ ... /40308331/
"I know nothing."

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SlowMovingInvestor
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by SlowMovingInvestor » Fri Oct 25, 2019 4:49 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 9:29 pm
unclescrooge wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:42 pm
...
He was probably in 100% equities. I don't think they do custom portfolios.
Most of their portfolios are individually "custom", often even picking individual stocks/bonds for a portfolio... which makes measuring the results of customers across the firm particularly difficult.
https://www.fisherinvestments.com/en-us ... portfolios
I doubt there's that much customization. Likely a host of prebuilt portfolios, with the stocks and bonds in the portfolios likely selected by their investment committee (I read somewhere it was Fisher and 3 others).

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ThereAreNoGurus
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by ThereAreNoGurus » Fri Oct 25, 2019 5:58 pm

Forester wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:38 am
I listen to what he has to say if I need a permabull perspective. He was one of the few keeping his cool in Q4 2018.

The dogpiling was unfortunate, momentum gathers quick in the social media age. At least we learned Fisher was a dinosaur and not something much worse; a virtue signaller!
Agree with the gist of your post.

However, Fisher claims he is not a perma-bull. He did correctly call the 2001 recession, but his call that it ended was too early (by his own admission as well). Like most he completely missed the '08 debacle.

I do find the commentary at FI's marketminder.com far more interesting and informative than most of the garbage written by the media.

That being said, I'd never give a dime to FI and find their marketing tactics resembling those of aggressive used-car salesmen.
Trade the news and you will lose.

pyld76
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by pyld76 » Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:02 pm

Forester wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:56 pm
JAZZISCOOL wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:43 pm
P & I today:

Los Angeles Fire & Police ended Fisher Investments' $551 million active international equity allocation over founder Ken Fisher's comments.

https://www.pionline.com/pension-funds/

(pay wall)
Yes it's just dogpiling & herd mentality at this point. I guarantee a mass hysteria will also force Vanguard / Blackrock to do something dumb also, whatever that drama turns out to be.
Vanguard and black rock, by definition, don’t have to worry about the guy whose name is on the building and presumably can’t be fired saying something ill-considered in public. Or, worst case, can fire that guy.

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Forester
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Forester » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:08 pm

pyld76 wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 8:02 pm
Forester wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:56 pm
JAZZISCOOL wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:43 pm
P & I today:

Los Angeles Fire & Police ended Fisher Investments' $551 million active international equity allocation over founder Ken Fisher's comments.

https://www.pionline.com/pension-funds/

(pay wall)
Yes it's just dogpiling & herd mentality at this point. I guarantee a mass hysteria will also force Vanguard / Blackrock to do something dumb also, whatever that drama turns out to be.
Vanguard and black rock, by definition, don’t have to worry about the guy whose name is on the building and presumably can’t be fired saying something ill-considered in public. Or, worst case, can fire that guy.
Vanguard already fired off a horrible identikit memo this year to every company on the topic of the hour. It will get worse in the future, whatever that hysteria turns out to be.

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nedsaid
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by nedsaid » Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:26 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm
Fisher Investments has been in the news lately after Ken Fisher went on a sexist tirage in a meeting and now public pensions are pulling their money out to the tune of 1.8 billion to date. So now Bloomberg decided to do an investigative report on the inner workings of Fisher Investments. You can find it here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-billions or reprinted in the Seattle Times here: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/i ... -billions/

I live in Camas WA, home of Fisher and am surrounded by Fisher employees in my neighborhood, my kids soccer team, PTA, et. And we live just a few blocks from the Fisher Headquarters. But I have never once gotten any electronic or snail mail spam or solicitations from Fisher. Which seemed kind of curious as we would be their target client. Now I know why. From the article:
Clients who live in certain locations are off-limits. One of them is Clark County. That’s where Camas is nestled, and where Fisher lives. Former colleagues say he wants to avoid bumping into any unhappy customers.
Heh...
A slip of the lip can sink a ship, in this case a company.
A fool and his money are good for business.

Northern Flicker
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Northern Flicker » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:08 pm

The institutional divestitures are growing, apparently topping $3B already:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ng-retreat

Apparently, various other offensive communication content also has been identified:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/noahkirsch ... ments/amp/
Index fund investor since 1987.

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:51 pm

The company is also working with a consultant, Tony Freinberg, whose website details an expertise in crisis management. Furthermore, Fisher Investments’ CEO, Damian Ornani, disavowed Fisher’s remarks in an email to staff.
I guess those who invest with Fisher are paying the P.R. firm's fees to manage this crisis. Investor's money not well spent.
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

retiringwhen
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by retiringwhen » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:06 pm

Forester wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:08 pm
Vanguard already fired off a horrible identikit memo this year to every company on the topic of the hour. It will get worse in the future, whatever that hysteria turns out to be.
My brain cannot parse these words. Could you better explain what "fired off", "horrible", "identikit" and "every company" mean? The rest of the sentences may start to make some sense to me then.

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goingup
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by goingup » Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:09 pm

Northern Flicker wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:08 pm
The institutional divestitures are growing, apparently topping $3B already:

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ng-retreat

Apparently, various other offensive communication content also has been identified:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/noahkirsch ... ments/amp/
Sounds like Ken Fisher is losing it. "When someone shows you who they are, believe them", as the saying goes. Poor judgement. Lacks personal integrity.

If I had money with him, I'd be gone by now.

Xrayman69
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Xrayman69 » Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:46 pm

nedsaid wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:26 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm
Fisher Investments has been in the news lately after Ken Fisher went on a sexist tirage in a meeting and now public pensions are pulling their money out to the tune of 1.8 billion to date. So now Bloomberg decided to do an investigative report on the inner workings of Fisher Investments. You can find it here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-billions or reprinted in the Seattle Times here: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/i ... -billions/

I live in Camas WA, home of Fisher and am surrounded by Fisher employees in my neighborhood, my kids soccer team, PTA, et. And we live just a few blocks from the Fisher Headquarters. But I have never once gotten any electronic or snail mail spam or solicitations from Fisher. Which seemed kind of curious as we would be their target client. Now I know why. From the article:
Clients who live in certain locations are off-limits. One of them is Clark County. That’s where Camas is nestled, and where Fisher lives. Former colleagues say he wants to avoid bumping into any unhappy customers.
Heh...
A slip of the lip can sink a ship, in this case a company.
Most media and people have very short memories. I wouldn’t shed a tear for Fisher. He’ll do fine as he has already done fine (most would say has done more than fine)

I suspect in a matter of weeks or a few months this will be a distant memory as the next headline issue will distract most.

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nedsaid
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by nedsaid » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:06 pm

Xrayman69 wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:46 pm
nedsaid wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:26 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm
Fisher Investments has been in the news lately after Ken Fisher went on a sexist tirage in a meeting and now public pensions are pulling their money out to the tune of 1.8 billion to date. So now Bloomberg decided to do an investigative report on the inner workings of Fisher Investments. You can find it here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-billions or reprinted in the Seattle Times here: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/i ... -billions/

I live in Camas WA, home of Fisher and am surrounded by Fisher employees in my neighborhood, my kids soccer team, PTA, et. And we live just a few blocks from the Fisher Headquarters. But I have never once gotten any electronic or snail mail spam or solicitations from Fisher. Which seemed kind of curious as we would be their target client. Now I know why. From the article:
Clients who live in certain locations are off-limits. One of them is Clark County. That’s where Camas is nestled, and where Fisher lives. Former colleagues say he wants to avoid bumping into any unhappy customers.
Heh...
A slip of the lip can sink a ship, in this case a company.
Most media and people have very short memories. I wouldn’t shed a tear for Fisher. He’ll do fine as he has already done fine (most would say has done more than fine)

I suspect in a matter of weeks or a few months this will be a distant memory as the next headline issue will distract most.
I am not a "woke" person and I don't pay very much attention to the Twitter wars, but these comments are offensive. You would think that such a savvy media person would not make such fundamental mistakes. He has been a Forbes columnist for years and has been in the public eye for a long time. Pretty surprised he would make such comments, you could have gotten away with them 30 years ago but not today. One must be careful even in private conversation but these were public comments. He might have to announce retirement to save his company. Not good.

I can think back at comments that I have made over the years and a few were pretty questionable. Over the last 25-30 years I have been a lot more careful about what I say and what I post. We live in the age of political correctness and wokeness, but Fisher's comments were beyond that. So called locker room talk does not belong in the public square.
A fool and his money are good for business.

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:39 pm

nedsaid wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:06 pm
Xrayman69 wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 5:46 pm
nedsaid wrote:
Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:26 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm
Fisher Investments has been in the news lately after Ken Fisher went on a sexist tirage in a meeting and now public pensions are pulling their money out to the tune of 1.8 billion to date. So now Bloomberg decided to do an investigative report on the inner workings of Fisher Investments. You can find it here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-billions or reprinted in the Seattle Times here: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/i ... -billions/

I live in Camas WA, home of Fisher and am surrounded by Fisher employees in my neighborhood, my kids soccer team, PTA, et. And we live just a few blocks from the Fisher Headquarters. But I have never once gotten any electronic or snail mail spam or solicitations from Fisher. Which seemed kind of curious as we would be their target client. Now I know why. From the article:
Clients who live in certain locations are off-limits. One of them is Clark County. That’s where Camas is nestled, and where Fisher lives. Former colleagues say he wants to avoid bumping into any unhappy customers.
Heh...
A slip of the lip can sink a ship, in this case a company.
Most media and people have very short memories. I wouldn’t shed a tear for Fisher. He’ll do fine as he has already done fine (most would say has done more than fine)

I suspect in a matter of weeks or a few months this will be a distant memory as the next headline issue will distract most.
I am not a "woke" person and I don't pay very much attention to the Twitter wars, but these comments are offensive. You would think that such a savvy media person would not make such fundamental mistakes. He has been a Forbes columnist for years and has been in the public eye for a long time. Pretty surprised he would make such comments, you could have gotten away with them 30 years ago but not today. One must be careful even in private conversation but these were public comments. He might have to announce retirement to save his company. Not good.

I can think back at comments that I have made over the years and a few were pretty questionable. Over the last 25-30 years I have been a lot more careful about what I say and what I post. We live in the age of political correctness and wokeness, but Fisher's comments were beyond that. So called locker room talk does not belong in the public square.
I think there's a few things going on here:

1. he's always been this way, but hasn't realized it's not acceptable anymore (he hasn't adapted to life in 2019, somehow acting like it's still 1950)

2. he believes in "locker room talk" which means there are things you might say to some that you wouldn't say to others. I find this bizarre frankly and two-faced. It smacks of lack of integrity as if the public face is different from what you reveal in private. ick.

3. Fisher forgot we live in a world where the cameras are always on. I was trained back in the late 90s in the Mandt system of managing people. it's not a management training, it's a training to help de-escalate individuals and was taught in settings like schools, institutions, and for police. This was before the advent of cel phones with video capability. The trainers said on more than one occasion, "Always act as if there's always a camera on you." I've never forgotten that. Fisher would have been well served to have thought about it that way, especially because now everyone essentially does have a camera on them.
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

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nedsaid
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by nedsaid » Sat Oct 26, 2019 6:47 pm

Not sure what Fisher did was evidence of being two-faced, it wasn't so many years ago that people would tell crude jokes in private conversation but realized that such behavior was not acceptable in a more public setting. It wasn't uncommon for folks to have a crude side and a more mannered side. In my younger days, I told certain types of jokes but stopped as I gained further awareness that this could make people uncomfortable. Sort of the difference between laughing with people and laughing at people. Still, it does raise suspicion about what a person really is like inside, much better to be the very same person in all environments. Acting as if the camera is always on is very good advice. The Golden Rule, to treat others as you would like to be treated is always good advice.
A fool and his money are good for business.

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Forester
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Forester » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:10 pm

The issue is he supposedly said something sexist. The first person to raise a red flag will quickly get plaudits and elevate their own standing, since it's also dangerous to scrutinise pompous whistleblowers. It's important now in 2019 to walk on eggshells and hope someone else screws up.

Fisher can't be blamed, he's of an older generation and his headstrong manner probably helped him to be successful in the first place. He is of his generation and people like him will slowly be replaced by blander professionals who put a premium on self-policing over eccentricity.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by ResearchMed » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:22 pm

Forester wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:10 pm
The issue is he supposedly said something sexist. The first person to raise a red flag will quickly get plaudits and elevate their own standing, since it's also dangerous to scrutinise pompous whistleblowers. It's important now in 2019 to walk on eggshells and hope someone else screws up.

Fisher can't be blamed, he's of an older generation and his headstrong manner probably helped him to be successful in the first place. He is of his generation and people like him will slowly be replaced by blander professionals who put a premium on self-policing over eccentricity.
"Can't be blamed"?

Whoa... there are quite a few of us here who are "of an older generation", and we don't speak like that. Importantly, most of us never did. (But certainly there are some who DID speak like that, and more so than nowadays, both in numbers and in type of comments, but that doesn't at all mean anyone of that generation!)

I don't think these comments were dredged up from the 50's or 60's (or even 70's...). Aren't they relatively recent?

There are many ways to be "headstrong" (obnoxious or not) without this particular type of language, in private or in public.

RM
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Forester
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Forester » Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:46 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:22 pm
Forester wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:10 pm
The issue is he supposedly said something sexist. The first person to raise a red flag will quickly get plaudits and elevate their own standing, since it's also dangerous to scrutinise pompous whistleblowers. It's important now in 2019 to walk on eggshells and hope someone else screws up.

Fisher can't be blamed, he's of an older generation and his headstrong manner probably helped him to be successful in the first place. He is of his generation and people like him will slowly be replaced by blander professionals who put a premium on self-policing over eccentricity.
"Can't be blamed"?

Whoa... there are quite a few of us here who are "of an older generation", and we don't speak like that. Importantly, most of us never did. (But certainly there are some who DID speak like that, and more so than nowadays, both in numbers and in type of comments, but that doesn't at all mean anyone of that generation!)

I don't think these comments were dredged up from the 50's or 60's (or even 70's...). Aren't they relatively recent?

There are many ways to be "headstrong" (obnoxious or not) without this particular type of language, in private or in public.

RM
Crass comments of the kind he made will vanish anyway as a consequence of fresh blood entering the industry (and all walks of life), but it will be falsely depicted as a victory or pushback. It would have made no difference had his comments at this semi-private gathering, gone unreported. No one would have been any the wiser and Fisher would have retired in the 2020s and taken his own opinions with him.

Essentially Fisher did nothing wrong, no one was personally attacked, he's simply out-of-date by four decades.

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cheese_breath
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by cheese_breath » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:27 am

Forester wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:10 pm
Fisher can't be blamed, he's of an older generation and his headstrong manner probably helped him to be successful in the first place.
Does this logic also apply if his comments were racist instead? Fisher is 68 years old. At what age do we become responsible for our actions and our words?
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JoMoney
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by JoMoney » Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:58 am

cheese_breath wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:27 am
Forester wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:10 pm
Fisher can't be blamed, he's of an older generation and his headstrong manner probably helped him to be successful in the first place.
Does this logic also apply if his comments were racist instead? Fisher is 68 years old. At what age do we become responsible for our actions and our words?
Without trying to turn it into racist comments or something it wasn't, we don't even know what was said, who was offended by it, or even the full context. We know it was something lewd used to analogize about marketing investment services. The problem isn't his age as much as being out of touch with the cancel culture zeitgeist of just the past few years. People much younger are being held "responsible" too. A few years back making a sex joke at a meeting would have been edgy but accepted (and anyone who complained laughed at as a prude).
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

sabhen
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by sabhen » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:25 am

He is fabulously rich and has his name on the building and his company is private. He does not care about what others think of him. He got away with it so far. Like some other prominent person, I don't want to mention by name.

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SlowMovingInvestor
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by SlowMovingInvestor » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:38 am

I don't want to get into a discussion on a contentious topic, but let me put it this away.

Would you trust a financial advisor who said that making you into a client was like a one night stand ?

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sperry8
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by sperry8 » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:47 am

goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I was a former client and posted my feelings on Bogleheads about Fisher over the years. He's really good at making macro calls and keeping calm during up/down markets. Ken Fisher personally responded to questions I had while I was a client (and it was much appreciated). I'd highly recommend his newsletter and some of his books (e.g., the only three questions that count). However, as a client I eventually chose to leave him as his micro calls (i.e., the actual stocks he bought) didn't keep pace with their index benchmark. So now I feel I get access to his macro calls (which again I feel help me in myriad ways) and yet don't have to trail the benchmarks. Primecap is definitely a better outfit than Fisher from a micro perspective.

One really poor downside are Fisher's "save" tactics when I was trying to leave them as a client left a lot to be desired. They don't let you leave without a fight. I'd imagine a lot of seniors would have trouble ultimately leaving the first time they tried.
BH contest results: 2018: #150 of 493 | 2017: #516 of 647 | 2016: #121 of 610 | 2015: #18 of 552 | 2014: #225 of 503 | 2013: #383 of 433 | 2012: #366 of 410 | 2011: #113 of 369 | 2010: #53 of 282

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SlowMovingInvestor
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by SlowMovingInvestor » Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:59 am

sperry8 wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:47 am

I was a former client and posted my feelings on Bogleheads about Fisher over the years. He's really good at making macro calls and keeping calm during up/down markets. Ken Fisher personally responded to questions I had while I was a client (and it was much appreciated). I'd highly recommend his newsletter and some of his books (e.g., the only three questions that count). However, as a client I eventually chose to leave him as his micro calls (i.e., the actual stocks he bought) didn't keep pace with their index benchmark. So now I feel I get access to his macro calls (which again I feel help me in myriad ways) and yet don't have to trail the benchmarks. Primecap is definitely a better outfit than Fisher from a micro perspective.
Wasn't he mistaken in 2008 ? Hardly anyone got 2008 right, true, but I wonder if he sort of coasted along on the basis of a good call on the dotcom bubble ..

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JoMoney
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by JoMoney » Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:07 am

SlowMovingInvestor wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:38 am
I don't want to get into a discussion on a contentious topic, but let me put it this away.

Would you trust a financial advisor who said that making you into a client was like a one night stand ?
I don't think Boglehead's view financial advisors with much regard. Frankly, the cynical view I have of them thinks that's the sort of view most of them have. In this situation he was talking at a semi-private conference among other financial advisors/salesmen. His comments would seem to confirm my thoughts about them.
We could come up with strong Boglehead reasons to stay away from Ken Fisher and his ilk based on fees and performance, but it seems that's not the reason these institutions are moving (likely to another high fee poor performing active manager).
The big question about what sort of social ramifications should come from making lewd jokes is out of scope for this board, but unfortunately that seems to be what the motivation behind the movement is, or at least as reported.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Rob5TCP » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:20 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 11:07 am
SlowMovingInvestor wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 10:38 am
I don't want to get into a discussion on a contentious topic, but let me put it this away.

Would you trust a financial advisor who said that making you into a client was like a one night stand ?
I don't think Boglehead's view financial advisors with much regard. Frankly, the cynical view I have of them thinks that's the sort of view most of them have. In this situation he was talking at a semi-private conference among other financial advisors/salesmen. His comments would seem to confirm my thoughts about them.
We could come up with strong Boglehead reasons to stay away from Ken Fisher and his ilk based on fees and performance, but it seems that's not the reason these institutions are moving (likely to another high fee poor performing active manager).
The big question about what sort of social ramifications should come from making lewd jokes is out of scope for this board, but unfortunately that seems to be what the motivation behind the movement is, or at least as reported.

The positive aspect of this, not just his comments but his performance may come under more critical reviews. I hope more flee his company, not just because of the comments, but because of their poor risk adjusted performance (and fees of course)

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texasdiver
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by texasdiver » Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:42 pm

Forester wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:10 pm
The issue is he supposedly said something sexist. The first person to raise a red flag will quickly get plaudits and elevate their own standing, since it's also dangerous to scrutinise pompous whistleblowers. It's important now in 2019 to walk on eggshells and hope someone else screws up.

Fisher can't be blamed, he's of an older generation and his headstrong manner probably helped him to be successful in the first place. He is of his generation and people like him will slowly be replaced by blander professionals who put a premium on self-policing over eccentricity.
Nonsense. I'm of an older generation as are plenty of folks on this forum. The great majority of us know better than to be sexist jerks whether in private or public. This sort of thing has ALWAYS been jerkish. Even in the 1950s. People just used to get away with it easier back in the day.

The man is not a child. Of course he can be blamed. He's cost his company what $300 million so far? Fisher, of course, is worth billions so he'll be fine. But I'm guessing that a whole lot of lower level employees are going to see smaller Christmas bonuses this year because their boss is a jerk. Some may even lose their jobs. But of course as you say: "Fisher can't be blamed" Sheesh.

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Forester
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Forester » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:20 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:42 pm
Forester wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:10 pm
The issue is he supposedly said something sexist. The first person to raise a red flag will quickly get plaudits and elevate their own standing, since it's also dangerous to scrutinise pompous whistleblowers. It's important now in 2019 to walk on eggshells and hope someone else screws up.

Fisher can't be blamed, he's of an older generation and his headstrong manner probably helped him to be successful in the first place. He is of his generation and people like him will slowly be replaced by blander professionals who put a premium on self-policing over eccentricity.
Nonsense. I'm of an older generation as are plenty of folks on this forum. The great majority of us know better than to be sexist jerks whether in private or public. This sort of thing has ALWAYS been jerkish. Even in the 1950s. People just used to get away with it easier back in the day.
What he said would have barely tolerated in the 80s, frowned upon in the 90s, criticised in the 00s, condemned today. You can't pretend that comfort levels with ignorant sexism are the same today as prior decades.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by ResearchMed » Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:35 pm

Forester wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 5:20 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 1:42 pm
Forester wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:10 pm
The issue is he supposedly said something sexist. The first person to raise a red flag will quickly get plaudits and elevate their own standing, since it's also dangerous to scrutinise pompous whistleblowers. It's important now in 2019 to walk on eggshells and hope someone else screws up.

Fisher can't be blamed, he's of an older generation and his headstrong manner probably helped him to be successful in the first place. He is of his generation and people like him will slowly be replaced by blander professionals who put a premium on self-policing over eccentricity.
Nonsense. I'm of an older generation as are plenty of folks on this forum. The great majority of us know better than to be sexist jerks whether in private or public. This sort of thing has ALWAYS been jerkish. Even in the 1950s. People just used to get away with it easier back in the day.
What he said would have barely tolerated in the 80s, frowned upon in the 90s, criticised in the 00s, condemned today. You can't pretend that comfort levels with ignorant sexism are the same today as prior decades.
Nope, social mores are not the same now as in previous decades, no surprise.
However, there are many of us who would NOT have spoken like that (in public or privately, I should add!), "back then" or more recently.
We simply did NOT "speak like that", period.

There are many other very-much-agreed-upon and totally unacceptable "words" (describing people) that are not attacking anyone personally. And, without wanting to write them, I cannot imagine anyone here really thinking those terms are "not wrong", and there would be no problem with using them in public... and for the most part, not in private, either.
Those words are not okay "now", and they were NOT okay back then. Some of us simply did/do not "speak like that", either!
I'm sure you can think of at least one such word.

It's no surprise whatsoever that so many took major offense at what he said *recently*.
Just because "some people" may have used vulgar language (of various types) in the past (and not everyone did!), does not excuse someone for using such terminology now/recently.

RM
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by cheese_breath » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:27 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:58 am
cheese_breath wrote:
Sun Oct 27, 2019 9:27 am
Forester wrote:
Sat Oct 26, 2019 8:10 pm
Fisher can't be blamed, he's of an older generation and his headstrong manner probably helped him to be successful in the first place.
Does this logic also apply if his comments were racist instead? Fisher is 68 years old. At what age do we become responsible for our actions and our words?
Without trying to turn it into racist comments or something it wasn't, we don't even know what was said, who was offended by it, or even the full context. We know it was something lewd used to analogize about marketing investment services. The problem isn't his age as much as being out of touch with the cancel culture zeitgeist of just the past few years. People much younger are being held "responsible" too. A few years back making a sex joke at a meeting would have been edgy but accepted (and anyone who complained laughed at as a prude).
I used that word as an example to try to understand how far the poster believes we should go in overlooking offensive language because the speaker is of an older generation.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by 4ransom » Sun Oct 27, 2019 6:55 pm

I have been hounded by Fishers mail and phone calls for years, did not take much research to decide it was terrible product I would never be interested in, I could care less what he says, I try to judge people by what they do, not what they say. If I find a good mechanic, he can say anything he wants to as long as he does a good job at a fair price.

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by SeeMoe » Sun Oct 27, 2019 7:02 pm

CAsage wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:29 pm
I'm very ignorant - why would Fidelity have investments with Fisher? I thought that was their job? Was he/that firm listed as one of their active managers from a fund? Otherwise.... Yeah, I'd dump him in a NY minute.
Maybe this is a clue to the Reuter’s News article awhile back that indicated the Johnson Family, owners of Fidelity Investments, was worth well over $22 billion USD then. That was 5-6 years ago.

Moe.. :confused
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