Inside Fisher Investments

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texasdiver
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Inside Fisher Investments

Post by texasdiver » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm

Fisher Investments has been in the news lately after Ken Fisher went on a sexist tirage in a meeting and now public pensions are pulling their money out to the tune of 1.8 billion to date. So now Bloomberg decided to do an investigative report on the inner workings of Fisher Investments. You can find it here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-billions or reprinted in the Seattle Times here: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/i ... -billions/

I live in Camas WA, home of Fisher and am surrounded by Fisher employees in my neighborhood, my kids soccer team, PTA, et. And we live just a few blocks from the Fisher Headquarters. But I have never once gotten any electronic or snail mail spam or solicitations from Fisher. Which seemed kind of curious as we would be their target client. Now I know why. From the article:
Clients who live in certain locations are off-limits. One of them is Clark County. That’s where Camas is nestled, and where Fisher lives. Former colleagues say he wants to avoid bumping into any unhappy customers.
Heh...

milo minderbinder
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by milo minderbinder » Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:55 pm

Count yourself lucky. I get tons of junk mail from him. Goes straight into the recycling bin.

sabhen
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by sabhen » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:05 pm

One of his books explains how to get rich. Start a business or marry well or hitch your career to someone who is very successful. His includes use OPM (Other People Money) like all the financial industry.

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MrBobcat
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by MrBobcat » Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:15 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm
Fisher Investments has been in the news lately after Ken Fisher went on a sexist tirage in a meeting and now public pensions are pulling their money out to the tune of 1.8 billion to date. So now Bloomberg decided to do an investigative report on the inner workings of Fisher Investments. You can find it here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-billions or reprinted in the Seattle Times here: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/i ... -billions/

I live in Camas WA, home of Fisher and am surrounded by Fisher employees in my neighborhood, my kids soccer team, PTA, et. And we live just a few blocks from the Fisher Headquarters. But I have never once gotten any electronic or snail mail spam or solicitations from Fisher. Which seemed kind of curious as we would be their target client. Now I know why. From the article:
Clients who live in certain locations are off-limits. One of them is Clark County. That’s where Camas is nestled, and where Fisher lives. Former colleagues say he wants to avoid bumping into any unhappy customers.
Heh...
Interesting. One really weird thing in the article was that Fidelity Investments pulled money from Fisher Investments. It had a link to another article where it said Fidelity pulled $500M from them... huh?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... her-s-firm

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CAsage
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by CAsage » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:29 pm

I'm very ignorant - why would Fidelity have investments with Fisher? I thought that was their job? Was he/that firm listed as one of their active managers from a fund? Otherwise.... Yeah, I'd dump him in a NY minute.
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Random Musings
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Random Musings » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:14 pm

I always believed that Ken Fisher was just another huckster in the financial porn industry....

However, people sometimes even exceed your wildest expectations.

RM
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ResearchMed
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by ResearchMed » Tue Oct 22, 2019 6:27 pm

MrBobcat wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:15 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm
Fisher Investments has been in the news lately after Ken Fisher went on a sexist tirage in a meeting and now public pensions are pulling their money out to the tune of 1.8 billion to date. So now Bloomberg decided to do an investigative report on the inner workings of Fisher Investments. You can find it here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-billions or reprinted in the Seattle Times here: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/i ... -billions/

I live in Camas WA, home of Fisher and am surrounded by Fisher employees in my neighborhood, my kids soccer team, PTA, et. And we live just a few blocks from the Fisher Headquarters. But I have never once gotten any electronic or snail mail spam or solicitations from Fisher. Which seemed kind of curious as we would be their target client. Now I know why. From the article:
Clients who live in certain locations are off-limits. One of them is Clark County. That’s where Camas is nestled, and where Fisher lives. Former colleagues say he wants to avoid bumping into any unhappy customers.
Heh...
Interesting. One really weird thing in the article was that Fidelity Investments pulled money from Fisher Investments. It had a link to another article where it said Fidelity pulled $500M from them... huh?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... her-s-firm
Apparently they (Fisher) somehow managed that chunk of a small/mid cap fund.
So will that amount be held "as is" until it's reinvested somehow or just cashed out and start from scratch?

I guess that's like when Vanguard has co-managers for some of it's managed funds?

But yes, it was indeed surprising to find that a major investment firm was using someone like Fisher...

RM
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firebirdparts
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by firebirdparts » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:10 pm

That's not a very interesting article. I mean, they're cold callers. Did anybody think that was a fun place to work?
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friar1610
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by friar1610 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:54 pm

The City of Boston is also bailing on Fisher. Part of their pension fund is there.
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criticalmass
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by criticalmass » Tue Oct 22, 2019 8:09 pm

MrBobcat wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 4:15 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm
Fisher Investments has been in the news lately after Ken Fisher went on a sexist tirage in a meeting and now public pensions are pulling their money out to the tune of 1.8 billion to date. So now Bloomberg decided to do an investigative report on the inner workings of Fisher Investments. You can find it here: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... n-billions or reprinted in the Seattle Times here: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/i ... -billions/

I live in Camas WA, home of Fisher and am surrounded by Fisher employees in my neighborhood, my kids soccer team, PTA, et. And we live just a few blocks from the Fisher Headquarters. But I have never once gotten any electronic or snail mail spam or solicitations from Fisher. Which seemed kind of curious as we would be their target client. Now I know why. From the article:
Clients who live in certain locations are off-limits. One of them is Clark County. That’s where Camas is nestled, and where Fisher lives. Former colleagues say he wants to avoid bumping into any unhappy customers.
Heh...
Interesting. One really weird thing in the article was that Fidelity Investments pulled money from Fisher Investments. It had a link to another article where it said Fidelity pulled $500M from them... huh?

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... her-s-firm
Looks like they (did) handle $500M of the Fidelity Strategic Advisers Small-Mid Cap Fund:

"We are very concerned about the highly inappropriate comments by Kenneth Fisher," a Fidelity spokesman said in a statement Tuesday. "The views he expressed do not align in any way with our company's values. We do not tolerate these types of comments at our company and Fidelity Strategic Advisers is reviewing this relationship."

Fisher Investments manages about $500 million for Fidelity Strategic Advisers, which oversees managed accounts. Mr. Fisher is listed as a subadviser for Fidelity Strategic Advisers Small-Mid Cap Fund."


https://www.investmentnews.com/article/ ... omments-at

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:21 pm

guess if he's as smart as he says (or thinks) he is, he'll hire a PR firm to do damage control. You know, issue a mea culpa, but do it in a way as to not really appologize or accept any wrongdoing so as to not open himself up to any lawsuits, etc. (as in, "I deeply regret if my words were found to be offensive to anyone"). Love that one. I'm not offensive, you just happened to find my words offensive. Your problem, not mine. Non-appology appology.
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Jack FFR1846 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:26 pm

He [angered -- mod oldcomputerguy] Abby Johnson. He's toast.
Bogle: Smart Beta is stupid

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friar1610
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by friar1610 » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:44 pm

Jack FFR1846 wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:26 pm
He [angered -- mod oldcomputerguy] Abby Johnson. He's toast.
Yeah; from what I've read she's been on a campaign to turn around the "old boy" mentality at Fido.
Last edited by friar1610 on Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Stinky
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Stinky » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:45 pm

He’s lost $1.8 billion of investments so far.

At a 1% annual fee, that’s $18 million per year. Not chump change, even for a billionaire.
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texasdiver
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by texasdiver » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:50 pm

firebirdparts wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 7:10 pm
That's not a very interesting article. I mean, they're cold callers. Did anybody think that was a fun place to work?
Well, I found it interesting because I really didn't know what went on inside Fisher. It was kind of a black hole. I mean there has been reams of articles and forum posts written about Edwards Jones. It looks like Fisher is just an upscale version of Edward Jones. There is certainly a Glengarry Glen Ross quality to the article: "WHERE ARE THE LEADS!!!" I guess in retrospect what else do you expect.

So glad we have Bogleheads.

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by jminv » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:56 am

Throughout the years both my father and I received their solicitation letters. They always went from the mail to the trash but I was always a little curious what they were about exactly since their letters were out of the blue and followed me as I moved around the country. I think they mass mail based on the public rolls of licenses of certain professions.

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sk2101
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by sk2101 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 5:55 am

Stinky wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:45 pm
He’s lost $1.8 billion of investments so far.

At a 1% annual fee, that’s $18 million per year. Not chump change, even for a billionaire.
Still they have over $100B of AUM and fees can be as high as 1.5%. So when they are raking at least $1B in fees, the $18M is a small amount. I think the bigger damage is the bad public attention they got and the loss of some big name clients that will keep them from attracting others.

To me the most surprising thing was to find out how big Fisher is. In my mind they were some small shady operation with a few hundred million of AUM. This is mind boggling.

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Forester
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Forester » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:38 am

I listen to what he has to say if I need a permabull perspective. He was one of the few keeping his cool in Q4 2018.

The dogpiling was unfortunate, momentum gathers quick in the social media age. At least we learned Fisher was a dinosaur and not something much worse; a virtue signaller!

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Nowizard » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:10 am

They advertise from a psychological point-of-view on television. Their point man has a beard and presents as if he were the empathetic psychologist or psychiatrist giving calming advice to prospects. The tag line of "We make more when you make more" is one that grabs attention and reflects the underlying business model. It is not a Boglehead destination in most cases.

Tim

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Xrayman69 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:30 am

What......

I’m shocked that their is gambling occurring..... they/he is just a salesman trying (and apparently effectively) peddling their merchandise.


“If you have 500k of investible money” or something to this affect is their pitch on TV. It plays to an individual’s sense of exclusivity bit just another marketing pitch, no more and no less other than when combined with other well utilized sales technique is very effective on a few people.

Selling this stuff isn’t like shooting free throws where you must make a majority to stay in the game, you need to just have high volume of “opportunities” and catch a few fish. It’s like selling cars or time shares for property but just much more lucrative. When I get one of these mailbox fillers I also get that same slimy feeling. Just talking about it here now requires that I go take a shower to wash off the (expletive) that I am now covered in.

One saving grace (if there is such a thing) is that they’re “exclusive” enough to only try to catch the bigger fishes/suckers and leave others alone. I suspect I got on the list when we purchased our home which likely indicated a certain income level. I suspect they also troll professional associations lists or licenses that have public records to be able to generate a list to sales team “associates”

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goingup
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by goingup » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am

I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:

MotoTrojan
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by MotoTrojan » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:33 am

arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:21 pm
guess if he's as smart as he says (or thinks) he is, he'll hire a PR firm to do damage control. You know, issue a mea culpa, but do it in a way as to not really appologize or accept any wrongdoing so as to not open himself up to any lawsuits, etc. (as in, "I deeply regret if my words were found to be offensive to anyone"). Love that one. I'm not offensive, you just happened to find my words offensive. Your problem, not mine. Non-appology appology.
He already made a statement essentially saying I’ve been talking like this for decades why is this a big deal...

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by MotoTrojan » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:34 am

goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
The better I do, the more they get paid. They MUST have my best interests in mind.

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by cheese_breath » Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:42 am

MotoTrojan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:34 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
The better I do, the more they get paid. They MUST have my best interests in mind.
You're being sarcastic, right?
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:02 am

cheese_breath wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:42 am
MotoTrojan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:34 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
The better I do, the more they get paid. They MUST have my best interests in mind.
You're being sarcastic, right?
Well, I'm no fan of Fisher, BUT assuming the fee % for AUM does not increase, the investor who does better will indeed reward Fisher as well, given the increase in the $$$ level of AUM. But, no, they have Fisher's interest in mind.

I have to hand it to Fisher, he has done pretty well for himself.

I started receiving stuff from his firm, but I was able to get it stopped by communicating to the firm those slick packages they were sending were all ending up in the trash. I can see why some folks might have been impressed by such a marketing effort, his firm stands to that ability.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

pyld76
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by pyld76 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 10:24 am

I'll give them this: they spend a good bit on big data stuffs to identify potential victi..... prospects.

I don't work in a licensed profession (although I do have significant certifications). I'm "house poor" (we live in a far, far smaller and more inexpensive place than we can theoretically "afford."). And yet, for years, their clutter has found it's way into my mailbox. I might throw them a fiver just to figure out how they found me.

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Portfolio7
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Portfolio7 » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:09 am

goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I'm not a client, but did some on-line research at one point. The most common complaints against his firm seem to be that they funnel clients into a one size fits all portfolio that is all equities, or almost all equities. This was a particularly loud complaint in the aftermath of 2008.

I read his "three things" book. Found it pretty useless except for one thing that I'm going to let lie (not an investing secret, for sure.)

I suspect that if you went with him in 2009, and aren't terribly cognizant of fees, that you're a pretty happy client right now. Lucky vs Good.
"An investment in knowledge pays the best interest" - Benjamin Franklin

protagonist
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by protagonist » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:18 am

I never get solicited by brokerage firms like you all. I wonder why, and how long my luck will hold out. Maybe my web surfing habits?
My assets are split between Fidelity and several banks/credit unions.

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Eazyndn » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:22 am

I was a client of Fisher Investment from 200-2008. My take:

FI is a “ closet indexer”. They target the Global index ( ACWI ) and do their tweeks as far as the portfolio, and if you are lucky, you’ll be earning market returns after fees.

I’ve personally heard him speak at client meetings ( about 10 times) , and never once heard him use offensive language. Maybe he speaks differently in other settings.

Overall, they won’t run away with your money, but like any other FA, they will not consistently beat the market.

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by MotoTrojan » Wed Oct 23, 2019 11:32 am

cheese_breath wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:42 am
MotoTrojan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:34 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
The better I do, the more they get paid. They MUST have my best interests in mind.
You're being sarcastic, right?
I am up over 15% this year! The S&P500 only averages 9% annually.




Yes I am kidding :).

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:37 pm

MotoTrojan wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:33 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:21 pm
guess if he's as smart as he says (or thinks) he is, he'll hire a PR firm to do damage control. You know, issue a mea culpa, but do it in a way as to not really appologize or accept any wrongdoing so as to not open himself up to any lawsuits, etc. (as in, "I deeply regret if my words were found to be offensive to anyone"). Love that one. I'm not offensive, you just happened to find my words offensive. Your problem, not mine. Non-appology appology.
He already made a statement essentially saying I’ve been talking like this for decades why is this a big deal...
and then he lost almost $2 billion AUM (at 1% AUM he lost $20,000,000 per year in revenue). He might save some money hiring a PR firm than acting like nothing's changed in the world since 1950.
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by JAZZISCOOL » Wed Oct 23, 2019 4:51 pm

CAsage wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:29 pm
I'm very ignorant - why would Fidelity have investments with Fisher? I thought that was their job? Was he/that firm listed as one of their active managers from a fund? Otherwise.... Yeah, I'd dump him in a NY minute.
Some large investment managers have sub-advisory relationships with other firms. I believe Vanguard uses them for some of their active mutual funds.

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/10/21/fisher- ... nship.html

KEY POINTS

1. Fisher Investments previously provided investment advisory services for a portion of Fidelity’s Strategic Advisers Small-Mid Cap Fund.
2. This is the fifth major client to exit since Ken Fisher made lewd comments at a conference on Oct. 8.
3. In all, a total of $1.8 billion in assets have left Fisher Investments in the wake of the controversy.

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by nfs » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:18 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm
I live in Camas WA, home of Fisher and am surrounded by Fisher employees in my neighborhood, my kids soccer team, PTA, et. And we live just a few blocks from the Fisher Headquarters. But I have never once gotten any electronic or snail mail spam or solicitations from Fisher. Which seemed kind of curious as we would be their target client. Now I know why. From the article:
Clients who live in certain locations are off-limits. One of them is Clark County. That’s where Camas is nestled, and where Fisher lives. Former colleagues say he wants to avoid bumping into any unhappy customers.
I'm also in Camas (small world!) And also wondered why we see so little advertising for Fisher given the affluence of our area. Lucky us! Thanks for putting this together an sharing!

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JoMoney
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by JoMoney » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:57 pm

I wonder if any of the institutional accounts that left Fisher Investments did so for reasons such as cost and performance.
From the little bit I've heard, I would find his fees more offensive than the idea that he makes lewd comments in some situation that apparently wasn't public or even available for the public to view in context.
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by SlowMovingInvestor » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:20 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:57 pm
I wonder if any of the institutional accounts that left Fisher Investments did so for reasons such as cost and performance.
Are his fees worse than those of Morgan or EJ or other RIAs ?

I am disappointed that the article doesn't really delve into whether Fisher has been able to beat the market with his stock picks or not, especially after fees. It does cover some of their funds and strategies briefly, but not in any detail. I know the focus of the article is more on the marketing culture rather than performance, but I am curious.

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One Ping
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by One Ping » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:25 pm

nfs wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:18 pm
texasdiver wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 3:51 pm
I live in Camas WA, home of Fisher and am surrounded by Fisher employees in my neighborhood, my kids soccer team, PTA, et. And we live just a few blocks from the Fisher Headquarters. But I have never once gotten any electronic or snail mail spam or solicitations from Fisher. Which seemed kind of curious as we would be their target client. Now I know why. From the article:
Clients who live in certain locations are off-limits. One of them is Clark County. That’s where Camas is nestled, and where Fisher lives. Former colleagues say he wants to avoid bumping into any unhappy customers.
I'm also in Camas (small world!) And also wondered why we see so little advertising for Fisher given the affluence of our area. Lucky us! Thanks for putting this together an sharing!
One point in favor of moving to Camas, less Fisher paper to recycle! :beer
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JoMoney
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by JoMoney » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:37 pm

SlowMovingInvestor wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:20 pm
JoMoney wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:57 pm
I wonder if any of the institutional accounts that left Fisher Investments did so for reasons such as cost and performance.
Are his fees worse than those of Morgan or EJ or other RIAs ?

I am disappointed that the article doesn't really delve into whether Fisher has been able to beat the market with his stock picks or not, especially after fees. It does cover some of their funds and strategies briefly, but not in any detail. I know the focus of the article is more on the marketing culture rather than performance, but I am curious.
Somehow I doubt he has. GuruFocus.com has info tracking him, but doesn't make it easy to compare his performance.
Fisher Investments used to have a mutual fund, "Purisima Total Return" (PURIX) that closed in 2016 with just under 20 years of history
MStar Chart against Vanguard's 500 Fund
"To achieve satisfactory investment results is easier than most people realize; to achieve superior results is harder than it looks." - Benjamin Graham

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One Ping
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by One Ping » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:45 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:37 pm
GuruFocus.com has info tracking him, but doesn't make it easy to compare his performance.
Fisher Investments used to have a mutual fund, "Purisima Total Return" (PURIX) that closed in 2016 with just under 20 years of history
MStar Chart against Vanguard's 500 Fund
Hmmm, interesting. Looks like his 'stuff' might have worked during the 'lost decade' ... Not so much when markets doing well.

Anyone know how to get the 'numbers' used for the curves in the chart in JoMoney's link?
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JoMoney
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by JoMoney » Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:53 pm

One Ping wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:45 pm
JoMoney wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:37 pm
GuruFocus.com has info tracking him, but doesn't make it easy to compare his performance.
Fisher Investments used to have a mutual fund, "Purisima Total Return" (PURIX) that closed in 2016 with just under 20 years of history
MStar Chart against Vanguard's 500 Fund
Hmmm, interesting. Looks like his 'stuff' might have worked during the 'lost decade' ... Not so much when markets doing well.

Anyone know how to get the 'numbers' used for the curves in the chart in JoMoney's link?
I don't know how much detail you're looking for, exporting Morningstar's daily data from the growth chart can be done, but is more complicated to explain than I'm willing to go into right now.
There's a chart with the annual returns available at the GuruFocus site here:
https://www.gurufocus.com/guru/ken+fisher/profile
... just scroll down 'till you see this:
Image
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One Ping
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by One Ping » Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:11 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:53 pm
One Ping wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:45 pm
JoMoney wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 7:37 pm
GuruFocus.com has info tracking him, but doesn't make it easy to compare his performance.
Fisher Investments used to have a mutual fund, "Purisima Total Return" (PURIX) that closed in 2016 with just under 20 years of history
MStar Chart against Vanguard's 500 Fund
Hmmm, interesting. Looks like his 'stuff' might have worked during the 'lost decade' ... Not so much when markets doing well.

Anyone know how to get the 'numbers' used for the curves in the chart in JoMoney's link?
I don't know how much detail you're looking for, exporting Morningstar's daily data from the growth chart can be done, but is more complicated to explain than I'm willing to go into right now.
I'd be looking for daily/monthly data. It's okay that you are not willing to do it now. I couldn't really get to using it right now, either. :sharebeer

Maybe in a few days or weeks we can touch base and move forward. Thanks for the data. :beer
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Xrayman69
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Xrayman69 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:46 am

I’ve always been a little curious why various funds and hedge funds are compared to other “peer” funds.

Similar to what Buffett did when he bet the hedge funds I compare everything (Cost and fees) to a low cost S&P 500 or total market fund (cost, fees, and dividends).

Why would I care if the fund or manager beat the “peer” by 1% but after cost and fees trailed the S&P by 5%?

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Dave55 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:59 am

goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I was having lunch with a friend a few weeks back. Low and behold he has money with fisher and is very happy with them. I pointed out the fee's he is paying (which are substantial) and he does not care. He says he got 20% return on a 60/40 portfolio this year and they did tax loss selling for him too. You can't confer a benefit on an unwilling recipient.

Dave

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goingup
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by goingup » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:43 am

Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:59 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I was having lunch with a friend a few weeks back. Low and behold he has money with fisher and is very happy with them. I pointed out the fee's he is paying (which are substantial) and he does not care. He says he got 20% return on a 60/40 portfolio this year and they did tax loss selling for him too. You can't confer a benefit on an unwilling recipient.

Dave
Interesting. I'm dubious about those reported returns. Paying the big fees hurts less in robust markets I guess. I can't imagine losing 1-2% to an advisor when in retirement. That's a huge chunk of a 4% SWR (safe withdrawal rate).

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by cheese_breath » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:53 am

goingup wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:43 am
Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:59 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I was having lunch with a friend a few weeks back. Low and behold he has money with fisher and is very happy with them. I pointed out the fee's he is paying (which are substantial) and he does not care. He says he got 20% return on a 60/40 portfolio this year and they did tax loss selling for him too. You can't confer a benefit on an unwilling recipient.

Dave
Interesting. I'm dubious about those reported returns. Paying the big fees hurts less in robust markets I guess. I can't imagine losing 1-2% to an advisor when in retirement. That's a huge chunk of a 4% SWR (safe withdrawal rate).
I'm sure Fisher and the others are very good at convincing their clients that's just a pittance, and worth the 'superior' return on their investments.
The surest way to know the future is when it becomes the past.

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Dave55 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:55 am

goingup wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:43 am
Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:59 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I was having lunch with a friend a few weeks back. Low and behold he has money with fisher and is very happy with them. I pointed out the fee's he is paying (which are substantial) and he does not care. He says he got 20% return on a 60/40 portfolio this year and they did tax loss selling for him too. You can't confer a benefit on an unwilling recipient.

Dave
Interesting. I'm dubious about those reported returns. Paying the big fees hurts less in robust markets I guess. I can't imagine losing 1-2% to an advisor when in retirement. That's a huge chunk of a 4% SWR (safe withdrawal rate).
Agreed. My friend is a pretty honest guy. I think when the market takes a hit and he is losing $$, the fee issue may wake him up. There are so many other places to go have your money managed for you at less than 1%. Go figure.

Dave

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texasdiver
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by texasdiver » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:02 pm

Xrayman69 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:46 am
I’ve always been a little curious why various funds and hedge funds are compared to other “peer” funds.

Similar to what Buffett did when he bet the hedge funds I compare everything (Cost and fees) to a low cost S&P 500 or total market fund (cost, fees, and dividends).

Why would I care if the fund or manager beat the “peer” by 1% but after cost and fees trailed the S&P by 5%?
It makes sense for sector funds. For example, if you want to invest in emerging markets there are dozens of emerging market funds to choose from. How they compare to each to each other is really more relevant than how they compare to say an REIT fund or large cap US fund.

Personally I don't slice and dice and do that sort of thing. But if I did, I'd want to know something of how the fund compares to others in the same category in terms of both fees and performance.

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by texasdiver » Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:09 pm

Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:59 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I was having lunch with a friend a few weeks back. Low and behold he has money with fisher and is very happy with them. I pointed out the fee's he is paying (which are substantial) and he does not care. He says he got 20% return on a 60/40 portfolio this year and they did tax loss selling for him too. You can't confer a benefit on an unwilling recipient.
If you want to illustrate the impact of fees, simply multiply the fee by the number of years you are invested with the firm and you will have a good estimate of the long-term impact of fees:

If your friend is with Fisher for 25 years and is paying 2% per year in fees (1% to Fisher and 1% average ER for actively manage funds) then he will have transferred 50% of his total portfolio balance over to Fisher and the expensive funds they sell. 2% per year over 25 years equals 50%. Ask him if it is worth giving Fisher 50% of his net worth to manage his money.

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by Dave55 » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:39 pm

texasdiver wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 12:09 pm
Dave55 wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 7:59 am
goingup wrote:
Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:31 am
I'd be curious to hear from someone who was actually a Ken Fisher client. We see a lot of posts from refugees fleeing Ed Jones, Raymond James, Merrill Lynch, Wells Fargo advisors. I don't recall anyone posting about their Ken Fisher experience. Maybe his clients are so satisfied they don't leave or perhaps it's hard to escape from the cult. :twisted:
I was having lunch with a friend a few weeks back. Low and behold he has money with fisher and is very happy with them. I pointed out the fee's he is paying (which are substantial) and he does not care. He says he got 20% return on a 60/40 portfolio this year and they did tax loss selling for him too. You can't confer a benefit on an unwilling recipient.
If you want to illustrate the impact of fees, simply multiply the fee by the number of years you are invested with the firm and you will have a good estimate of the long-term impact of fees:

If your friend is with Fisher for 25 years and is paying 2% per year in fees (1% to Fisher and 1% average ER for actively manage funds) then he will have transferred 50% of his total portfolio balance over to Fisher and the expensive funds they sell. 2% per year over 25 years equals 50%. Ask him if it is worth giving Fisher 50% of his net worth to manage his money.
Thanks texasdiver. He is paying 1% a year fee for AUM. From what he told me they invested him in a portfolio of individual stocks and maybe some ETF's. Same for bonds. Not sure I want to bring the subject up again, however if he does, I will certainly share.

Dave

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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by garlandwhizzer » Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:44 pm

IMO Ken Fisher is long on advertising, long on marketing, long on fees, short on honesty, and likely short on actually improving returns for investors. Often an inverse relationship exists in the financial industry between the amount of advertising/marketing and what it's worth which in Mr. Fisher's case isn't much IMO. His aim is to line his own pockets by taking advantage of vulnerable investors, the opposite of what Bogle did. Firms that actually produce consistently good results for investors don't have to scream at you every day on CNBC to get on board.

Garland Whizzer

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texasdiver
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Re: Inside Fisher Investments

Post by texasdiver » Thu Oct 24, 2019 2:14 pm

garlandwhizzer wrote:
Thu Oct 24, 2019 1:44 pm
IMO Ken Fisher is long on advertising, long on marketing, long on fees, short on honesty, and likely short on actually improving returns for investors. Often an inverse relationship exists in the financial industry between the amount of advertising/marketing and what it's worth which in Mr. Fisher's case isn't much IMO. His aim is to line his own pockets by taking advantage of vulnerable investors, the opposite of what Bogle did. Firms that actually produce consistently good results for investors don't have to scream at you every day on CNBC to get on board.

Garland Whizzer
Since I live near Fisher HQ I happen to know a number of of people who work there. From what I have heard, they say it appears he is on the autism spectrum and they think has Asbergers. Super bright with numbers but not great with people. Basically because he always seems out of touch with how he comes across and is not at all a people person. Anyway, that's what his own people say.

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