Rich people are hoarding cash

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Independent George
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by Independent George »

Elysium wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:24 am I will hoard cash when I become rich :sharebeer

Since I am not rich yet, I cannot hoard cash :wink:
This is pretty much how I see it. Cash is the ultimate luxury good - someday I hope to be rich enough to afford to having piles of cash that earn less than inflation. I'm not there yet, and may never get there.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by flaccidsteele »

I’m holding cash. I always hold cash after retirement accounts are full

Having cash was a lot of fun during the tech crash and credit crisis

Investors should try it!
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by Bluce »

Elysium wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:24 am I will hoard cash when I become rich :sharebeer

Since I am not rich yet, I cannot hoard cash :wink:
I have asked repeatedly for someone to define the tipping point when one magically becomes "rich."

Do you know? :shock: :confused
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by AerialWombat »

flaccidsteele wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:38 am I’m holding cash. I always hold cash after retirement accounts are full

Having cash was a lot of fun during the tech crash and credit crisis

Investors should try it!
+1

Everybody here likes to bash cash, but not to rehash a ludicrous amount of crash talk, cash is a nice buffer to have. I’ve run out of words that rhyme with cash, but I for one will continue holding a lot of it (currently 1/3 of my liquid assets) as a hedge. I never know when a rental will require a major repair, or if all the customers of my main business will suddenly cancel.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by unclescrooge »

Financologist wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:40 am Rich people are hoarding cash? Really..

They're also hoarding stocks, bonds and Teslas in record quantities.

Check there freezers.. plenty of Haagen Dazs too. They're "hoarding" it.

More interesting... WSJ's December report on the mass exodus of retail investors from equity funds. Gives me faith gains will more than hold in '20.
So that's why it's so expensive!
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by Bluce »

AerialWombat wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:46 am
flaccidsteele wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:38 am I’m holding cash. I always hold cash after retirement accounts are full

Having cash was a lot of fun during the tech crash and credit crisis

Investors should try it!
+1

Everybody here likes to bash cash, but not to rehash a ludicrous amount of crash talk, cash is a nice buffer to have. I’ve run out of words that rhyme with cash, but I for one will continue holding a lot of it (currently 1/3 of my liquid assets) as a hedge. I never know when a rental will require a major repair, or if all the customers of my main business will suddenly cancel.
I read an article in some magazine a couple of years ago about a woman who had reached $1M in her PF, so she transferred everything into CDs and ST Treasuries. As I recall, she was nearing retirement and felt a huge relief that she no longer had to care what the stock market was doing.

Pondering it was an interesting mental exercise and although I had been gradually de-risking for years, it probably helped motivate me to a 30/70 AA. But I have almost no cash, not that I care. If CDs were paying more I would get back into them.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by rustymutt »

TomCat96 wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 2:59 pm Rich people hoarding cash is a bullish signal.

It's when the rich people are all in, where then is no more money sitting on the sidelines to buy up the market that you should be worried.
Let us know when your rich buddies decide to sell. That's when I'll buy.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by MN-Investor »

Oops. I have about 7% in cash (which includes money market accounts). It's mostly inertia which has created this issue.

My problem are investments which kick off income (individual stocks and ETFs) which are not automatically reinvested. My husband started reinvesting some of the income, but he passed away almost 2 years ago and I've ignored the issue since then. We did have an IPS, so I really do need to invest based on our agreed upon asset allocation.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by watchnerd »

Bluce wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:58 am If CDs were paying more I would get back into them.
Such a sentiment seems common.

The challenge is that nominally higher CD rates might be only because inflation is rising.

Isn't it the spread between CDs and inflation that matter, not the nominal coupon?
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by AerialWombat »

Bluce wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:58 am I read an article in some magazine a couple of years ago about a woman who had reached $1M in her PF, so she transferred everything into CDs and ST Treasuries. As I recall, she was nearing retirement and felt a huge relief that she no longer had to care what the stock market was doing.
This idea definitely appeals to me. I totally see the draw. It has occurred to me many times over the past month that if I liquidated my illiquid assets, I’d walk away with enough cash to live the rest of my life and never work again, putting all of the dough into CD’s, Vg Prime MM, and intermediate munis (to boost return a bit). It’s not the worst idea.
Bluce wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:58 am Pondering it was an interesting mental exercise and although I had been gradually de-risking for years, it probably helped motivate me to a 30/70 AA. But I have almost no cash, not that I care. If CDs were paying more I would get back into them.
Agreed. As is being discussed on the Wellesley thread, I like that fund largely for the AA and not having to lose sleep over two separate funds. Add the cash in Prime MM (which I used to hold in Vg High Yield Tax Exempt!) and I’m sleeping like a wombat in a kangaroo pouch.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by JMitchell2020 »

JoMoney wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 1:01 am
watchnerd wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:50 am
Financologist wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:40 am WSJ's December report on the mass exodus of retail investors from equity funds. Gives me faith gains will more than hold in '20.
Link?

Did they posit a cause?
Maybe https://www.wsj.com/articles/investors- ... 1575801002
http://archive.is/FjKsD
Thank you for the link to the archived copy.
Here’s what neither the quoted analysts or author addressed: when I (or any retail customer of mutual funds) rebalance during a stock market bull run, it is mathematically axiomatic that our money will flow out of those funds and into, say, bonds. So an observation that mutual fund holders are selling during a bull market doesn’t per se indicate anything. You would have to show that the magnitude is not explained. The article doesn’t do that because the idea never seems to have occurred.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by ohai »

Independent George wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:33 am
Elysium wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 9:24 am I will hoard cash when I become rich :sharebeer

Since I am not rich yet, I cannot hoard cash :wink:
This is pretty much how I see it. Cash is the ultimate luxury good - someday I hope to be rich enough to afford to having piles of cash that earn less than inflation. I'm not there yet, and may never get there.
Disagree! Imagine $1 million in cars compared to $1 million cash. It is a luxury when you are setting your money on fire.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by Bluce »

watchnerd wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 11:39 am
Bluce wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:58 am If CDs were paying more I would get back into them.
Such a sentiment seems common.

The challenge is that nominally higher CD rates might be only because inflation is rising.

Isn't it the spread between CDs and inflation that matter, not the nominal coupon?
Yes of course the rate of inflation matters, but I compare CD rates to what I can get from bond funds.
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Bluce
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by Bluce »

AerialWombat wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 12:07 pm
Bluce wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:58 am I read an article in some magazine a couple of years ago about a woman who had reached $1M in her PF, so she transferred everything into CDs and ST Treasuries. As I recall, she was nearing retirement and felt a huge relief that she no longer had to care what the stock market was doing.
This idea definitely appeals to me. I totally see the draw. It has occurred to me many times over the past month that if I liquidated my illiquid assets, I’d walk away with enough cash to live the rest of my life and never work again, putting all of the dough into CD’s, Vg Prime MM, and intermediate munis (to boost return a bit). It’s not the worst idea.
Bluce wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:58 am Pondering it was an interesting mental exercise and although I had been gradually de-risking for years, it probably helped motivate me to a 30/70 AA. But I have almost no cash, not that I care. If CDs were paying more I would get back into them.
Agreed. As is being discussed on the Wellesley thread, I like that fund largely for the AA and not having to lose sleep over two separate funds. Add the cash in Prime MM (which I used to hold in Vg High Yield Tax Exempt!) and I’m sleeping like a wombat in a kangaroo pouch.
:sharebeer
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by abuss368 »

I look at cash as sleep well at night.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by North Texas Cajun »

Not sure if anyone pointed it out before, but this is a global aggregate. I couldn’t find the 2019 report, but I did look at the 2018 version. At about 22%, the cash allocations of both North America and Europe are well below those of Japan (45%) and Latin America (27%).

22% allocation to cash still seems very high for U.S. wealthy investors. I would suspect that some elderly wealthy folks - especially widows - have been steered into cash investments by bankers who have intentionally scared them.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by TheTimeLord »

North Texas Cajun wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:58 pm Not sure if anyone pointed it out before, but this is a global aggregate. I couldn’t find the 2019 report, but I did look at the 2018 version. At about 22%, the cash allocations of both North America and Europe are well below those of Japan (45%) and Latin America (27%).

22% allocation to cash still seems very high for U.S. wealthy investors. I would suspect that some elderly wealthy folks - especially widows - have been steered into cash investments by bankers who have intentionally scared them.
I will also point out with such a flat yield curve people are not encouraged to take duration risk. I have a fair amount in brokerage money markets myself.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by North Texas Cajun »

TheTimeLord wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 5:01 pm
North Texas Cajun wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:58 pm Not sure if anyone pointed it out before, but this is a global aggregate. I couldn’t find the 2019 report, but I did look at the 2018 version. At about 22%, the cash allocations of both North America and Europe are well below those of Japan (45%) and Latin America (27%).

22% allocation to cash still seems very high for U.S. wealthy investors. I would suspect that some elderly wealthy folks - especially widows - have been steered into cash investments by bankers who have intentionally scared them.
I will also point out with such a flat yield curve people are not encouraged to take duration risk. I have a fair amount in brokerage money markets myself.
Yeah, that’s probably a better explanation.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by watchnerd »

abuss368 wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:09 pm I look at cash as sleep well at night.
Like you keep a pile of bills on your nightstand and you gaze at it until you fall asleep?

:P
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by abuss368 »

watchnerd wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 6:32 pm
abuss368 wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 4:09 pm I look at cash as sleep well at night.
Like you keep a pile of bills on your nightstand and you gaze at it until you fall asleep?

:P
Too funny!
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by sean.mcgrath »

JamalJones wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:09 pm
retiringwhen wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:07 pm My grandfather (born 1906) always knew that his dog and a .22LR was enough to keep 10 kids fed even if the factory closed or he got fired for helping start a union (that happened twice...)
I would think shooting and eating the dog for a family of 12 would be like one meal. Wouldn’t you need several thousand dogs to sustain the family for an extended time if the factory closed down?
Several thousand dogs for an extended period of time? I hope you willfully misunderstood the post, but even so, it is clear you have never butchered an animal. Assuming I had a garden, which I am sure his grandfather did, protein from animals would not be my main source of calories. I cannot imagine the dog only lasting a day, even in a family of 12.

I tried to found out how many kcals I could get from a dog, but Google was not helpful. You get a million from a cow (let's say, 5,000 days per person). Can we agree that a dog gives a tenth of that (~50 days per family of 12)?
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by sailaway »

sean.mcgrath wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:49 pm
JamalJones wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:09 pm
retiringwhen wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:07 pm My grandfather (born 1906) always knew that his dog and a .22LR was enough to keep 10 kids fed even if the factory closed or he got fired for helping start a union (that happened twice...)
I would think shooting and eating the dog for a family of 12 would be like one meal. Wouldn’t you need several thousand dogs to sustain the family for an extended time if the factory closed down?
Several thousand dogs for an extended period of time? I hope you willfully misunderstood the post, but even so, it is clear you have never butchered an animal. Assuming I had a garden, which I am sure his grandfather did, protein from animals would not be my main source of calories. I cannot imagine the dog only lasting a day, even in a family of 12.

I tried to found out how many kcals I could get from a dog, but Google was not helpful. You get a million from a cow (let's say, 5,000 days per person). Can we agree that a dog gives a tenth of that (~50 days per family of 12)?
The average cow weighs 1600lbs. What kind of dogs are you raising?
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by sean.mcgrath »

sailaway wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:21 pm
sean.mcgrath wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:49 pm
JamalJones wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:09 pm
retiringwhen wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:07 pm My grandfather (born 1906) always knew that his dog and a .22LR was enough to keep 10 kids fed even if the factory closed or he got fired for helping start a union (that happened twice...)
I would think shooting and eating the dog for a family of 12 would be like one meal. Wouldn’t you need several thousand dogs to sustain the family for an extended time if the factory closed down?
Several thousand dogs for an extended period of time? I hope you willfully misunderstood the post, but even so, it is clear you have never butchered an animal. Assuming I had a garden, which I am sure his grandfather did, protein from animals would not be my main source of calories. I cannot imagine the dog only lasting a day, even in a family of 12.

I tried to found out how many kcals I could get from a dog, but Google was not helpful. You get a million from a cow (let's say, 5,000 days per person). Can we agree that a dog gives a tenth of that (~50 days per family of 12)?
The average cow weighs 1600lbs. What kind of dogs are you raising?
Ok, fair (I guessed on the 10%). Lets say the average dog is 40 lbs (generous on my side, I think). We are now at 125 days per person, or 10 for the family. "Thousands" of dogs would add up to a minimum of 60 years. Now let's assume some crazy bone to meat ratio that halves the calories per pound. We are at 30 years. Hopefully I didn't mess up the math, but can we agree that "thousands of dogs" is a bit insane?
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by smectym »

Tommy wrote: Thu Nov 14, 2019 12:02 am
sl5050 wrote: Tue Nov 12, 2019 12:44 pm How do rich people actually hoard cash if the FDIC only insures up to 250k?
I really doubt that somebody with 1M has 250K in cash - unless somebody retired , lives on SS/pension and keeping 75% in stock and 25% in cash.
No, there are quite a few rich people who have a ton of money in cash. There are a lot of very conservative rich people. In Asia it's almost more likely than not that an investor would hold large amounts of money in accounts earning little or nothing--perhaps having no exposure to equities. Germany has it's fair share of those as well, some of them holding floods of funds in accounts now earning negative rates. Cultural norms and past historical traumas exert a very powerful pull on investor behavior, and often the resulting distortions stray far from what the Boglehead would consider simple common sense investing principles.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by smectym »

AerialWombat wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:46 am
flaccidsteele wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:38 am I’m holding cash. I always hold cash after retirement accounts are full

Having cash was a lot of fun during the tech crash and credit crisis

Investors should try it!
+1

Everybody here likes to bash cash, but not to rehash a ludicrous amount of crash talk, cash is a nice buffer to have. I’ve run out of words that rhyme with cash, but I for one will continue holding a lot of it (currently 1/3 of my liquid assets) as a hedge. I never know when a rental will require a major repair, or if all the customers of my main business will suddenly cancel.
AerialWombat, there are a few fans of cash on this board, I'm one of them. I think of cash more broadly as "non-fluctuating," so include CD's and savings bonds in my definition, but even just looking at Vanguard Treasury Money Market...we have "too much" cash in there. However, the cash-and-similar is what gives us the bedrock confidence to invest the rest
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by Bluce »

Anybody else remember "the good old days" when Vanguard Prime MM was paying 5%? :shock: :shock:
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

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Bluce wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:55 pm Anybody else remember "the good old days" when Vanguard Prime MM was paying 5%? :shock: :shock:
No. :(
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

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Bluce wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:55 pm Anybody else remember "the good old days" when Vanguard Prime MM was paying 5%? :shock: :shock:
No. :(
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by Bluce »

watchnerd wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:12 pm
Bluce wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 7:55 pm Anybody else remember "the good old days" when Vanguard Prime MM was paying 5%? :shock: :shock:
No. :(
Early- mid-'90s. :happy
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by whodidntante »

sean.mcgrath wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:43 pm
sailaway wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 6:21 pm
sean.mcgrath wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 5:49 pm
JamalJones wrote: Tue Jan 14, 2020 10:09 pm
retiringwhen wrote: Tue Sep 10, 2019 3:07 pm My grandfather (born 1906) always knew that his dog and a .22LR was enough to keep 10 kids fed even if the factory closed or he got fired for helping start a union (that happened twice...)
I would think shooting and eating the dog for a family of 12 would be like one meal. Wouldn’t you need several thousand dogs to sustain the family for an extended time if the factory closed down?
Several thousand dogs for an extended period of time? I hope you willfully misunderstood the post, but even so, it is clear you have never butchered an animal. Assuming I had a garden, which I am sure his grandfather did, protein from animals would not be my main source of calories. I cannot imagine the dog only lasting a day, even in a family of 12.

I tried to found out how many kcals I could get from a dog, but Google was not helpful. You get a million from a cow (let's say, 5,000 days per person). Can we agree that a dog gives a tenth of that (~50 days per family of 12)?
The average cow weighs 1600lbs. What kind of dogs are you raising?
Ok, fair (I guessed on the 10%). Lets say the average dog is 40 lbs (generous on my side, I think). We are now at 125 days per person, or 10 for the family. "Thousands" of dogs would add up to a minimum of 60 years. Now let's assume some crazy bone to meat ratio that halves the calories per pound. We are at 30 years. Hopefully I didn't mess up the math, but can we agree that "thousands of dogs" is a bit insane?
If you're eating dog meat and it's not a dare, odds are you've passed the point of paying your electric bill. So you'll need a fresh dog every day, except for the winter. But if you have a lot of dogs, you probably can't afford to feed them either. If things get bad enough, you might have to open an Edward Jones office. That's probably how they start.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by OnTrack »

Independent George wrote: Wed Jan 15, 2020 10:33 am Cash is the ultimate luxury good - someday I hope to be rich enough to afford to having piles of cash that earn less than inflation. I'm not there yet, and may never get there.
See the "ultimate luxury" couch at this link:
http://demonocracy.info/infographics/us ... _debt.html
It's next to the stack of $100,000,000. The couch is made from $46.7 million of crispy $100 bills.
Last edited by OnTrack on Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:42 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by watchnerd »

whodidntante wrote: Thu Jan 16, 2020 11:27 pm ]

If you're eating dog meat and it's not a dare, odds are you've passed the point of paying your electric bill. So you'll need a fresh dog every day, except for the winter. But if you have a lot of dogs, you probably can't afford to feed them either. If things get bad enough, you might have to open an Edward Jones office. That's probably how they start.

Rich people hoarding cash + Edward Jones = dog eating

Only on BH....

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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

Post by Bluce »

If "rich" people start eating dogs, then Imma have a problem. :oops:
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Re: Rich people are hoarding cash

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