[Vanguard ongoing glitches, August 12-13, 2019]

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
CoastalWinds
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by CoastalWinds » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:21 pm

Were any ETF investors on this forum able to buy shares on the cheap with VG’s “big dip” today??

It does make you wonder... if one opts out of paper statements, are they entirely dependent on VG’s IT department to ensure they don’t immediately lose all their retirement savings?
Last edited by CoastalWinds on Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Rudedog
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by Rudedog » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:21 pm

Have a drink. Check it in the morning.........

mindgap
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by mindgap » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:23 pm

Can’t login into my account right now through the iPhone app.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Wellesley 56.05% drop today

Post by ResearchMed » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:24 pm

catalina355 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:19 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:17 pm
catalina355 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:09 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:59 pm
FIREchief wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:53 pm


Double negative? In other words, a negative 127.6% loss = 127.6% gain? Probably the only thing that makes sense. After the 56% loss, the error correction shows a 127.6% gain (100 divided by 44) to get back to the starting point. The math checks out!
This wasn't the correction. It's now been corrected.
I'm just curious how one had a >100% loss in a non-leveraged fund...

This was how it "showed" on the list of all holdings.
If I clicked on the fund, then it showed the approx 56% loss. Same fund. Same moments (I could toggle back and forth).
:confused

Yes, I made a copy in case I want to show Vanguard, but there's really no point in bothering.
Or maybe TDAmeritrade, but it's not really their fault. However, I do wonder how that one display page got it so different...?

RM
It has NOT been corrected. I'm not sure what browser you are using.
Well, it certainly *was* corrected on my display of TDA's list of Vanguard funds held within our 403b, just as stated by others.

However... it's wrong again. We slice and dice, so have lots of funds, and just now, all but two of the Vanguard funds are showing ZERO change, as in "0.00%".
Only Vanguard funds.

Oh, using Chrome...
But we have a special link at TDAmeritrade for the new (per approx January) Vanguard Brokerage Window. Maybe that's why it's different for you, if you are seeing something different on TDA?

RM
I'm looking at Vanguard. Serious errors in bond, balanced and other funds.
I mentioned I was looking on TDAmeritrade. And how that's the way we can see our Vanguard Brokerage Window holdings within our 403b plan.

I don't usually check the general Vanguard website, as our interest is with our own holdings. No reason to scroll through all the Vanguard funds, plus we also see the NON-Vanguard holdings within the Vanguard Brokerage Window (*at* TDAmeritrade's special website, or special "page" or such), and we can't see those in a list of "Vanguard" funds, of course.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

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catalina355
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Re: Wellesley 56.05% drop today

Post by catalina355 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:29 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:24 pm
catalina355 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:19 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:17 pm
catalina355 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:09 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:59 pm


This wasn't the correction. It's now been corrected.
I'm just curious how one had a >100% loss in a non-leveraged fund...

This was how it "showed" on the list of all holdings.
If I clicked on the fund, then it showed the approx 56% loss. Same fund. Same moments (I could toggle back and forth).
:confused

Yes, I made a copy in case I want to show Vanguard, but there's really no point in bothering.
Or maybe TDAmeritrade, but it's not really their fault. However, I do wonder how that one display page got it so different...?

RM
It has NOT been corrected. I'm not sure what browser you are using.
Well, it certainly *was* corrected on my display of TDA's list of Vanguard funds held within our 403b, just as stated by others.

However... it's wrong again. We slice and dice, so have lots of funds, and just now, all but two of the Vanguard funds are showing ZERO change, as in "0.00%".
Only Vanguard funds.

Oh, using Chrome...
But we have a special link at TDAmeritrade for the new (per approx January) Vanguard Brokerage Window. Maybe that's why it's different for you, if you are seeing something different on TDA?

RM
I'm looking at Vanguard. Serious errors in bond, balanced and other funds.
I mentioned I was looking on TDAmeritrade. And how that's the way we can see our Vanguard Brokerage Window holdings within our 403b plan.

I don't usually check the general Vanguard website, as our interest is with our own holdings. No reason to scroll through all the Vanguard funds, plus we also see the NON-Vanguard holdings within the Vanguard Brokerage Window (*at* TDAmeritrade's special website, or special "page" or such), and we can't see those in a list of "Vanguard" funds, of course.

RM
Not sure how TDA can correct Vanguard pricing when Vanguard pricing is not correct.

Wakefield1
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Re: Missing money - Vanguard accounts

Post by Wakefield1 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:29 pm

They really should put a banner on their web portal about the technical problem. Shouldn't display gibberish when it is known not to be valid.

hudson
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by hudson » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:30 pm

mindgap wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:23 pm
Can’t login into my account right now through the iPhone app.
I couldn't logon with the iPhone app or on a PC running Windows 10.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Wellesley 56.05% drop today

Post by ResearchMed » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:32 pm

catalina355 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:29 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:24 pm
catalina355 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:19 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:17 pm
catalina355 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:09 pm


It has NOT been corrected. I'm not sure what browser you are using.
Well, it certainly *was* corrected on my display of TDA's list of Vanguard funds held within our 403b, just as stated by others.

However... it's wrong again. We slice and dice, so have lots of funds, and just now, all but two of the Vanguard funds are showing ZERO change, as in "0.00%".
Only Vanguard funds.

Oh, using Chrome...
But we have a special link at TDAmeritrade for the new (per approx January) Vanguard Brokerage Window. Maybe that's why it's different for you, if you are seeing something different on TDA?

RM
I'm looking at Vanguard. Serious errors in bond, balanced and other funds.
I mentioned I was looking on TDAmeritrade. And how that's the way we can see our Vanguard Brokerage Window holdings within our 403b plan.

I don't usually check the general Vanguard website, as our interest is with our own holdings. No reason to scroll through all the Vanguard funds, plus we also see the NON-Vanguard holdings within the Vanguard Brokerage Window (*at* TDAmeritrade's special website, or special "page" or such), and we can't see those in a list of "Vanguard" funds, of course.

RM
Not sure how TDA can correct Vanguard pricing when Vanguard pricing is not correct.
Uh, what's going on?
I never suggested that TDAmeritrade should "fix a Vanguard problem".

What IS a TDAmeritrade issue, or at least it would seem so, is that it shows the SAME fund down approx 56% in one display, but down more than 100% in another display. And both were stable, at least for some time,as I could refresh and switch between them.
And only the 56% loss matches what everyone else is reporting.
Odd.
I've never before seen anything other than an exact match (to the decimal places showing, anyway), between the two displays.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

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ResearchMed
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Re: Missing money - Vanguard accounts

Post by ResearchMed » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:34 pm

Wakefield1 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:29 pm
They really should put a banner on their web portal about the technical problem. Shouldn't display gibberish when it is known not to be valid.
Absolutely!

Not only is there a HUGE waste of time as folks start searching to see "what's happening", but there are also lots of people with less Vanguard experience who are genuinely alarmed - and with no real need...

ETA: And probably most of them don't have a resource like BH for a sanity check. That could be VERY upsetting.

RM
This signature is a placebo. You are in the control group.

Mr.BB
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Re: Wellesley 56.05% drop today

Post by Mr.BB » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:48 pm

ginrummy wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:00 pm
Fire drill.
+1 :D
"We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit."

sambb
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by sambb » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:50 pm

amazing that vanguard has no communication on this - truly astounded

Bodhi312
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Re: Missing money - Vanguard accounts

Post by Bodhi312 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:54 pm

ResearchMed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:34 pm
Wakefield1 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:29 pm
They really should put a banner on their web portal about the technical problem. Shouldn't display gibberish when it is known not to be valid.
Absolutely!

Not only is there a HUGE waste of time as folks start searching to see "what's happening", but there are also lots of people with less Vanguard experience who are genuinely alarmed - and with no real need...

ETA: And probably most of them don't have a resource like BH for a sanity check. That could be VERY upsetting.

RM
You don’t find it alarming that your experience with Vanguard has conditioned you to be ready for obviously incorrect NAVs?

This is a symptom of a lack of standards which has plagued Vanguard.

On the engineering side, there should be systems in place to prevent bad output from Vanguard’s systems; this is really basic to software/systems engineering, and considering the size of their asset base, this should be core to their engineering philosophy.

Customers reporting unanswered calls, no banner on the website, etc, just reinforces my point.

elainet7
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by elainet7 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:56 pm

Our vanguard acct is 280m
Knew a problem when star fund is down 25%

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hornet96
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by hornet96 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:59 pm

I’m wondering if this had something to do with it:

https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/12/a-tradi ... close.html
The New York Stock Exchange said Monday evening that it “continues to experience delays” in the publishing of trades and closing prices to the Consolidated Tape.” A number of major exchanges contribute data on their trades to the consolidated quote system, a single feed is run by the Consolidated Tape Association, or CTA, an industry body.

The issue first appeared on the CTA’s alerts page around 3:15 p.m. ET Monday. By 3:40 p.m. ET, the problem was reported as “resolved.” But just 11 minutes later, the CTA said it was still experiencing a problem.

eonny
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by eonny » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:01 pm

All my funds are duplicated as of 1900 MST.

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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by Cheez-It Guy » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:03 pm

So, no banner notification, but they do have the following on the homepage:

"Market volatility and your portfolio. When the market swings, hold steady!"

Don't you see? They are testing us! . . .

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catalina355
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by catalina355 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:07 pm

sambb wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:50 pm
amazing that vanguard has no communication on this - truly astounded
Yes. I cannot log in to Vanguard either.

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Wellesley 56.05% drop today

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:09 pm

catalina355 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:09 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:59 pm
FIREchief wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:53 pm
ResearchMed wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:55 pm
On TDAmeritrade, where all of our 403b Vanguard Brokerage window was transferred (clients had no choice), one of the Vanguard funds is showing a loss of -127.60 % in one column. [Yes, that's a *negative*] :shock:
Double negative? In other words, a negative 127.6% loss = 127.6% gain? Probably the only thing that makes sense. After the 56% loss, the error correction shows a 127.6% gain (100 divided by 44) to get back to the starting point. The math checks out!
This wasn't the correction. It's now been corrected.
I'm just curious how one had a >100% loss in a non-leveraged fund...

This was how it "showed" on the list of all holdings.
If I clicked on the fund, then it showed the approx 56% loss. Same fund. Same moments (I could toggle back and forth).
:confused

Yes, I made a copy in case I want to show Vanguard, but there's really no point in bothering.
Or maybe TDAmeritrade, but it's not really their fault. However, I do wonder how that one display page got it so different...?

RM
It has NOT been corrected. I'm not sure what browser you are using.
mine corrected and i'm using firefox in case it matters. perhaps it's not the browswer but they're fixing each account one by one.
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

Ferdinand2014
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Re: Wellesley 56.05% drop today

Post by Ferdinand2014 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:24 pm

catalina355 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:13 pm
Ferdinand2014 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:12 pm
InvMoney wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:53 pm
I have Wellington and Wellesley Income in a Fidelity IRA. Checked with a Fidelity Rep about the problem and was told that Vanguard was aware of it and would have it corrected in about an hour.

In reviewing today's returns for all Vanguard funds, it's apparent that only Vanguard balanced funds were affected, and that index balanced funds (Target Date funds, Life Strategy funds, Balanced Index, etc.) as well as managed balanced funds were affected.
A tad ironic.
Not so. Bond funds are also affected.
I meant that it was Fidelity rep. that provided answers about vanguard funds as other posters have been frustrated by lack of dissemination from Vanguard.
Last edited by Ferdinand2014 on Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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vshun
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by vshun » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:24 pm

I had to sell (partial) one of these funds from Coverdell ESA today to pay for my son semester in college (which is due this Friday). After seeing this thread, when I was lucky to finally log in an hour ago, the remaining balance displayed really low (could not be explained by market drop and sell transaction). They will reinstate correct NAV for existing folks, but how about those of us who placed SELL transactions based on this supposedly invalid too-low NAV?

mtmingus
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by mtmingus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:25 pm

My vanguard account has NO holding. But there is a balance as of last Friday.
This is very consistent with vanguard customer services.
Last edited by mtmingus on Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Jackson12
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What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by Jackson12 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:26 pm

[merged into existing thread - moderator prudent]

Update : moderator merged my new thread with a pre- existing one, which is appreciated because I couldn’t find the previous thread.

My thread originally read : “ I can’t find a thread on this glitch. Surely someone here has noticed or posted. Any link? My account shows it has over 40 million in it. That’s way above the actual number. , Has this or something similar happened before?”

I wouldn’t have started another thread if I’d seen that someone posted earlier about the glitch.
Last edited by Jackson12 on Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Bdouvs
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by Bdouvs » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:28 pm

I'm having issues as well.

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whodidntante
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by whodidntante » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:29 pm

Other people have posted that their money at Vanguard disappeared. Now we know where it went.

financeperchance
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by financeperchance » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:31 pm

I am having trouble logging in to the website on both the desktop and the app.

Bacchus01
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by Bacchus01 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:31 pm

My numbers look right, but Quicken won't synch.

PSUSteve
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by PSUSteve » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:31 pm

It took until 9:28 for them to post this on Twitter

The market-wide pricing issues impacted the initial prices shown on our website as well as other pricing sources. We’re working to publish the corrected prices and are sorry for the inconvenience.

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Old Blue Chair
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by Old Blue Chair » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:32 pm

I can’t log on

Jackson12
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by Jackson12 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:33 pm

whodidntante wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:29 pm
Other people have posted that their money at Vanguard disappeared. Now we know where it went.
Is this a glitch anyone has seen before? I’m not worried, just baffled. And curious if others are seeing similar or other glitches today. I can’t see any news about it in online searches.

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bengal22
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by bengal22 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:34 pm

Jackson12 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:26 pm
I can’t find a thread on this glitch. Surely someone here has noticed or posted. Any link? My account shows it has over 40 million in it. That’s way above the actual number. , Has this or something similar happened before?
Sell
"Earn All You Can; Give All You Can; Save All You Can." .... John Wesley

02nz
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by 02nz » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:35 pm

The hamsters have gone on strike!

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RogueBear
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by RogueBear » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:35 pm

I was dumbfounded to see $60K gone just like that. The market price for LifeStrategy Growth Fund was down 12% according to the website, but eventually corrected. I would have liked the $40 Million though. Doesn't give you a lot of faith in their system if it can get that messed up. :shock:
RB

KarenC
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by KarenC » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:38 pm

Same for me! I can get to some pages, but when I go to https://personal.vanguard.com/us/myacco ... esholdings the site doesn’t respond.
"How much you know is less important than how clearly you understand where the borders of your ignorance begin." — Jason Zweig

Jackson12
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by Jackson12 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:40 pm

I finally got through to Vanguard. I was referred to this and told it caused a “ back end issue” at Vanguard but would be straightened out soon. I’m not sure how the following info resulted in such a large error with Vanguard but this is what happened with NASDAQ today and I was told it was related to the incorrect numbers shown on the Vanguard website: :
“The U.S. stock market’s consolidated quote system, which feeds real-time data feeds to data providers and is used to calculate index values, experienced a processing issue that resulted in some delayed quotes, according to exchange officials familiar with the matter.

The Nasdaq market flagged an issue affecting the quote system about 24 minutes before the close”. . : https://www.cnbc.com/2019/08/12/a-tradi ... close.html
Last edited by Jackson12 on Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

mtmingus
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by mtmingus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:42 pm

Jackson12 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:26 pm
[merged into existing thread - moderator prudent]

I can’t find a thread on this glitch. Surely someone here has noticed or posted. Any link? My account shows it has over 40 million in it. That’s way above the actual number. , Has this or something similar happened before?
My account was doubled as well, for a few min. Then back to Friday's balance.

AE81
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by AE81 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:49 pm

Maybe their blockchain implementation went off the rails. :oops:

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:16 pm

Obviously any number that comes out of a digital computer is perfectly correct at all times and under all conditions. Round-off error is similarly impossible. If there's a glitch it must be in our collective wetware.
PJW

SneakyFast1
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by SneakyFast1 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:05 pm

PSUSteve wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:31 pm
It took until 9:28 for them to post this on Twitter

The market-wide pricing issues impacted the initial prices shown on our website as well as other pricing sources. We’re working to publish the corrected prices and are sorry for the inconvenience.
Why is this only posted on Twitter?

Why would Vanguard think Twitter is an effective way to communicate with their customers?

I use Twitter but I would never trust any financial information on Twitter. Vanguard needs to do better.

HawkeyePierce
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by HawkeyePierce » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:16 pm

SneakyFast1 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:05 pm
PSUSteve wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:31 pm
It took until 9:28 for them to post this on Twitter

The market-wide pricing issues impacted the initial prices shown on our website as well as other pricing sources. We’re working to publish the corrected prices and are sorry for the inconvenience.
Why is this only posted on Twitter?

Why would Vanguard think Twitter is an effective way to communicate with their customers?

I use Twitter but I would never trust any financial information on Twitter. Vanguard needs to do better.
FWIW, the SEC considers Twitter an acceptable place for corporations to officially disseminate material information to investors.

https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/04/02 ... uncements/

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ThereAreNoGurus
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by ThereAreNoGurus » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:17 pm

PSUSteve wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:31 pm
Why is this only posted on Twitter?
I did not have any problems with logging in. Never saw any misquotes on VWENX, so I was not affected, but that is utterly ridiculous to post problems only on twitter. (I never use it.)

I wonder if it's because there is more bureaucracy involved in order to change anything on their website. Regardless, that is pathetic.
Last edited by ThereAreNoGurus on Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trade the news and you will lose.

staustin
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Re: What is happening with Vanguard site?

Post by staustin » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:21 pm

02nz wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:35 pm
The hamsters have gone on strike!
made me laugh out loud...

Bodhi312
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by Bodhi312 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:25 pm

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:16 pm
Obviously any number that comes out of a digital computer is perfectly correct at all times and under all conditions. Round-off error is similarly impossible. If there's a glitch it must be in our collective wetware.
PJW
..which is why a minimally well engineered system would block nonsense from escaping into the wild. For example,
if a person tries to send an order for an equity ticker for 0 shares or for a price of $0, the broker should immediately stop the order process, since it’s obviously nonsense.

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Doom&Gloom
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by Doom&Gloom » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:34 pm

I'm almost tempted to log in just to find out if I've made a few million. Nah, I'd rather just have another beer.

dru808
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by dru808 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:37 pm

CoastalWinds wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 7:21 pm
Were any ETF investors on this forum able to buy shares on the cheap with VG’s “big dip” today??

It does make you wonder... if one opts out of paper statements, are they entirely dependent on VG’s IT department to ensure they don’t immediately lose all their retirement savings?
Good question, maybe I’ll opt back in.

SneakyFast1
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Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:03 am

Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by SneakyFast1 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:52 pm

HawkeyePierce wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:16 pm
SneakyFast1 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:05 pm
PSUSteve wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 8:31 pm
It took until 9:28 for them to post this on Twitter

The market-wide pricing issues impacted the initial prices shown on our website as well as other pricing sources. We’re working to publish the corrected prices and are sorry for the inconvenience.
Why is this only posted on Twitter?

Why would Vanguard think Twitter is an effective way to communicate with their customers?

I use Twitter but I would never trust any financial information on Twitter. Vanguard needs to do better.
FWIW, the SEC considers Twitter an acceptable place for corporations to officially disseminate material information to investors.

https://dealbook.nytimes.com/2013/04/02 ... uncements/
Thanks for the information.

Even though the SEC is okay with it should a company only use Twitter to communicate or should the company broadly disseminate information? My company would broadly disseminate the information, just saying.

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whodidntante
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Joined: Thu Jan 21, 2016 11:11 pm
Location: outside the echo chamber

Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by whodidntante » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:58 pm

The fine folks in Salt Lake City aren't showing my credit card balances right now. Since I owe them 17 grand (on a 0% purchase APR promo) I'm pretty excited about that. The roof. The roof. The roof is on fire.

Or maybe I misunderstood and it was a 0% purchase promo. :happy
Last edited by whodidntante on Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

SneakyFast1
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:03 am

Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by SneakyFast1 » Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:58 pm

https://apple.news/AdJHr3U1KTEGY6iHtbSeSxQ

It seems to only be a Vanguard issue even though Vanguard blames a third party information provider.
Jorge A. Romero, a financial planner at Carlson Wealth in The Villages, Florida, noticed the problem at about 7 p.m.

“I just hope the problem gets resolved quickly, although am disappointed that Vanguard hasn’t proactively said anything, specially since they have a rather large retail client base and the funds impacted are widely held,” he said. “I’m guessing they hoped it was fixed before anyone even noticed.”

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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee » Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:11 pm

Bodhi312 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:25 pm
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:16 pm
Obviously any number that comes out of a digital computer is perfectly correct at all times and under all conditions. Round-off error is similarly impossible. If there's a glitch it must be in our collective wetware.
PJW
..which is why a minimally well engineered system would block nonsense from escaping into the wild. For example,
if a person tries to send an order for an equity ticker for 0 shares or for a price of $0, the broker should immediately stop the order process, since it’s obviously nonsense.
In your extreme example, sure. How's the computer supposed to know whether the S&P 500 in fact dropped by 30% today or not? What if stocks did do that and the computer failed to report it because the programmer who was optimistic about her 401(k) value thought it's obviously nonsense? People would rightly complain.

My point is we humans have to use the contents of our skulls. The little grey cells. Our wetware.

Please don't suppose my point is Vanguard's machines are any more or less perfect than anybody else's ("machines are perfect are perfect are perfect" [gets hit upside the head] "thank you!").

PJW

Bodhi312
Posts: 45
Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2016 8:01 pm

Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by Bodhi312 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:20 am

Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:11 pm
Bodhi312 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:25 pm
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:16 pm
Obviously any number that comes out of a digital computer is perfectly correct at all times and under all conditions. Round-off error is similarly impossible. If there's a glitch it must be in our collective wetware.
PJW
..which is why a minimally well engineered system would block nonsense from escaping into the wild. For example,
if a person tries to send an order for an equity ticker for 0 shares or for a price of $0, the broker should immediately stop the order process, since it’s obviously nonsense.
In your extreme example, sure. How's the computer supposed to know whether the S&P 500 in fact dropped by 30% today or not? What if stocks did do that and the computer failed to report it because the programmer who was optimistic about her 401(k) value thought it's obviously nonsense? People would rightly complain.

My point is we humans have to use the contents of our skulls. The little grey cells. Our wetware.

Please don't suppose my point is Vanguard's machines are any more or less perfect than anybody else's ("machines are perfect are perfect are perfect" [gets hit upside the head] "thank you!").

PJW
What you’re talking about is something like “VOO should never drop 30% in a day.” Unless there is a regulation barring that event, that would a horrible sanity check, since it would be completely subjective. Assuming Vanguard can gather single name prices and the prices of other instruments related to those tickers, it’s not terribly difficult to ensure things are relatively sane. Futures, options, etc can be used as an arbitration mechanism. Certainly a 30% drop would be reflected in both types of instruments quickly.

When a price disruption like today’s happens, firms receiving live data are alerted (and generally have internal systems to make sure they’re operating on reliable/timely market data, on top of external alerts).

Sanity checks exist at several levels (as standard practice in the financial industry) as part of operational risk management.

If you want a less extreme example, if you try to buy a financial instrument worth more than you have tradable cash in your brokerage account, you’ll likely get a rejection (yes, I know about margin, fund exchanges, etc — this is a simple, but common, example).

SneakyFast1
Posts: 9
Joined: Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:03 am

Re: [Vanguard price glitches, incorrect market info for August 12, 2019]

Post by SneakyFast1 » Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:35 am

Bodhi312 wrote:
Tue Aug 13, 2019 12:20 am
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:11 pm
Bodhi312 wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 10:25 pm
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 9:16 pm
Obviously any number that comes out of a digital computer is perfectly correct at all times and under all conditions. Round-off error is similarly impossible. If there's a glitch it must be in our collective wetware.
PJW
..which is why a minimally well engineered system would block nonsense from escaping into the wild. For example,
if a person tries to send an order for an equity ticker for 0 shares or for a price of $0, the broker should immediately stop the order process, since it’s obviously nonsense.
In your extreme example, sure. How's the computer supposed to know whether the S&P 500 in fact dropped by 30% today or not? What if stocks did do that and the computer failed to report it because the programmer who was optimistic about her 401(k) value thought it's obviously nonsense? People would rightly complain.

My point is we humans have to use the contents of our skulls. The little grey cells. Our wetware.

Please don't suppose my point is Vanguard's machines are any more or less perfect than anybody else's ("machines are perfect are perfect are perfect" [gets hit upside the head] "thank you!").

PJW
What you’re talking about is something like “VOO should never drop 30% in a day.” Unless there is a regulation barring that event, that would a horrible sanity check, since it would be completely subjective. Assuming Vanguard can gather single name prices and the prices of other instruments related to those tickers, it’s not terribly difficult to ensure things are relatively sane. Futures, options, etc can be used as an arbitration mechanism. Certainly a 30% drop would be reflected in both types of instruments quickly.

When a price disruption like today’s happens, firms receiving live data are alerted (and generally have internal systems to make sure they’re operating on reliable/timely market data, on top of external alerts).

Sanity checks exist at several levels (as standard practice in the financial industry) as part of operational risk management.

If you want a less extreme example, if you try to buy a financial instrument worth more than you have tradable cash in your brokerage account, you’ll likely get a rejection (yes, I know about margin, fund exchanges, etc — this is a simple, but common, example).
It appears no other mutual fund company was impacted negatively by the incorrect data supplied by the third party. Only Vanguard did not have a process to correctly handle the incorrect data and only Vanguard published incorrect data. From this it seems that Vanguard is lacking the processes that other companies have to prevent this unacceptable error.

This is clearly a Vanguard process issue.

Vanguard needs to improve its processes to prevent incorrect pricing to be released when it knows the pricing it received were erroneous.

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