Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

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cheezit
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by cheezit » Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:53 am

JackoC wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:30 am
cheezit wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:12 am
samstar wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:57 pm
PE ownership in a lot of ways is a superior way for companies to build value.
What experience do you have working for firms owned by private equity companies? IME a PE firm is the worst possible owner. I am extremely lucky that my current employer had a brief tenure being owned by a PE firm, and that the PE firm found it more profitable to flip us quickly than to strip us. The foreign conglomerate they sold us to has been angelic by comparison.
In the long term in theory there should be a basic alignment of worker and investor interests: if one is broadly and consistently unhappy the other will also probably be unhappy eventually.
What PE firms do you know of that do anything for the long term (in either the general sense or the specific sense of "long term" used in economics)? I stand by my contention that PE is not generally intended to build value, but rather to extract it. Without even getting into the legal shenanigans associated with the sector, the script seems to be to find net-net opportunities where the whole has a book value less than the sum of the parts, transfer all the debt to a new entity, sell off the parts, then let the new entity go bankrupt and close the old entity.

You can call this a lot of things, perhaps even a good investment for an outside investor (distinct from the partners of the PE firm), but I don't see how it constitutes building wealth as originally claimed rather than merely transferring it. Unless we're including some types of firms not normally grouped under "private equity" under the PE category label - eg. VC firms.

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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:25 am

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:22 am
hdas wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:16 am
Bitzer wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:01 am
This news item is reported in the online edition of today's Wall Street Journal
It’s about time. This is a win for the little guy :greedy
When the little guy gets in, the smart money gets out. Guess who’s going to be left holding the bag?
I tend to agree. We are surely near the end of a bull cycle in corporate assets, propelled by extremely cheap debt money. And the level of competition by PE firms for deals is at least an order of magnitude greater than it was in the 1990s, say.

PE firms are in search of permanent capital. WIth their 10 year fund lives, now (5 year active commitment period) if they have a bad fund, they cannot raise the next fund (they usually do so every 2-3 years) and the PE firm can fail to survive.

Michael Jensen at Harvard Business School, whose famous paper on firm governance (aligning shareholders with managers) kicked off the whole intellectual justification for the hostile M&A wave/ LBO wave from about 1980 (Michael Milliken, with junk bonds, provided the other leg of the stool), wrote (about 15 years ago) that if PE firms lost the discipline of having to raise new capital every 5-10 years, the advantages they bring to governance would be lost*. They, themselves, would become another Principal-Agent misalignment problem, just as large public corporations were -- more wanting to hoard capital (and earn fees managing it) than seeking to generate returns for Limited Partner investors.

* holding a large & illiquid stake and sitting on the Boards of the owned companies. Thus paying close attention to the allocation of capital - whereas big public shareholders will simply sell the shares. Any number of former CEOs of public companies have been quoted (or will say in private) how frustrating they found the world of quarterly reporting and ever-changing shareholder base to be.

That, plus the fact senior managers own a meaningful stake in the company (say 5-6%) should mean much greater alignment of interests.

The Principal-Agent misalignment in the PE world comes in the fees. That "2 & 20%" (200 basis points pa for committed funds + 20% carried interest performance fee) and the sheer scale of the fees for a big firm has put a wedge between the interests of the PE firm & its execs and the interests of their Limited Partners.

There's also a whole host of issues around misreporting of performance statistics and opacity in same.

David Swensen is right. Unless you have demonstrable skill as an investor in picking good PE funds to invest in (and being able to get access to those funds), you are better off not investing. There are "hot hands" (to what extent is debatable) in PE (and absolutely there are in VC, which is why the average VC Limited Partner has no chance whatsoever) but your ability to pick those (in advance) and your access to them is much more debatable.

There is one investor who uses PE like techniques (extreme attention to returns on capital) to manage a diverse portfolio of businesses. In addition he runs his own fund management company extremely frugally, and pays himself a relative pittance. So you don't have the fees problem as an investor in his fund. His main problem is now one of age and succession.

The firm is called Berkshire (mispronounced "Berk" when it should be "Bark" ;-) Hathaway and the guy's name is French: Buffet-something. I think it's US listed, as well ;-).

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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by nisiprius » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:20 am

I don't own the book, and I have never read this chapter since I don't have either the interest or the ability to invest in private equity, but it seems like something to look at before dabbling in private equity, in any form. "Flawed," by the way, isn't very negative, since the title of the book is The Only Guide to Alternative Investments You'll Ever Need: The Good, the Flawed, the Bad, and the Ugly.

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House Blend
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by House Blend » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:30 am

oldzey wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 11:43 pm
am wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 6:13 pm
oldzey wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:59 pm
I look forward to "VREA" (to give TREA some competition). 8-)
Is there any way to get exposure for a retail investor in properties directly? What is recommended?
You can open an IRA with TIAA and add QREARX (TIAA Real Estate Account [TREA]) to it.
Nope. While "everyone" can open an IRA at TIAA, there are restrictions on who can open an IRA that has access to TREA.
If you or a family member currently work for (or once worked for) a nonprofit organization, you can invest in TIAA's annuities and additional TIAA mutual funds. You’ll be able to select these investments as you go through the process of opening your account. (Note: If not currently employed at a nonprofit, you or your family member must have either: worked at a nonprofit for at least three years or have worked at a nonprofit since turning 55 years of age.)
More details here:
https://www.tiaa.org/public/tiaa-ira?isModal=true
am wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 7:48 am
That’s a lot of hassle to obtain access to this fund. Is this fund generally recommended on this site? Any other recommended ways to gain access?
TREA is complex and expensive (ER 0.83%), but perhaps not expensive for what it provides: shared ownership in ~150 commercial properties and the ability to cash out at any time.

Many Bogleheads that have TIAA accounts use TREA. But if I didn't already have a TIAA account, I don't think I would want to open an IRA at TIAA for this purpose. TREA is just about the only thing I would be willing to hold in a TIAA IRA.

Read the FAQ if you are still interested.
https://www.tiaa.org/public/pdf/performance/REA_FAQ.pdf

Whakamole
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by Whakamole » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:07 am

The pop-ups and banner ads plugging PAS bug me more than this.

JackoC
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by JackoC » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:25 pm

cheezit wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:53 am
JackoC wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:30 am
cheezit wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:12 am
samstar wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:57 pm
PE ownership in a lot of ways is a superior way for companies to build value.
What experience do you have working for firms owned by private equity companies? IME a PE firm is the worst possible owner. I am extremely lucky that my current employer had a brief tenure being owned by a PE firm, and that the PE firm found it more profitable to flip us quickly than to strip us. The foreign conglomerate they sold us to has been angelic by comparison.
In the long term in theory there should be a basic alignment of worker and investor interests: if one is broadly and consistently unhappy the other will also probably be unhappy eventually.
What PE firms do you know of that do anything for the long term (in either the general sense or the specific sense of "long term" used in economics)? I stand by my contention that PE is not generally intended to build value, but rather to extract it. ...

You can call this a lot of things, perhaps even a good investment for an outside investor (distinct from the partners of the PE firm)...
But all we are talking about here is whether it's a good investment for an outside investor. You seem to have just further clarified that your point is off topic, whatever its validity might be. One can question whether all kinds of things which boost profitability, at public stock companies also, are in the interests of people besides the investors. Here we talk about investing.

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nedsaid
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by nedsaid » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:53 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:26 am
nedsaid wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:18 am
stan1 wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 9:02 am
nedsaid wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:28 am
I can't access the article.
Google "vanguard private equity"
Okay, found the article and was able to read it. Thanks.

Sounds like Vanguard is considering offering private equity through its Personal Advisory Service.

Let's see, maybe Vanguard will offer Alternative Lending, Reinsurance, and Variance Risk Premium through advisors as well. Just kidding there, but I am sure Mr. Bogle wouldn't be happy with this. The nightmare would be if they hired Larry as their director of research. :wink:

It sounds like this is in response to a shrinking public stock market.
More an asset gathering strategy.

Given liquidity issues I am guessing the structure would be a "Fund of Funds" w gated redemptions.

You would have 2 levels of fees then.
I remember the Larry Swedroe articles on private equity, his articles said that Small/Value was a good proxy for private equity and you got liquidity and better returns to boot. The problem with investing in private equity is that the retail investors will not have access to the best deals, also the "when the idiots figure it out, it stops working" problem. There also gets to be a point where too much money floods in and depresses returns.
A fool and his money are good for business.

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nedsaid
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by nedsaid » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:56 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 9:25 am
Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:22 am
hdas wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 8:16 am
Bitzer wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:01 am
This news item is reported in the online edition of today's Wall Street Journal
It’s about time. This is a win for the little guy :greedy
When the little guy gets in, the smart money gets out. Guess who’s going to be left holding the bag?
I tend to agree. We are surely near the end of a bull cycle in corporate assets, propelled by extremely cheap debt money. And the level of competition by PE firms for deals is at least an order of magnitude greater than it was in the 1990s, say.

PE firms are in search of permanent capital. WIth their 10 year fund lives, now (5 year active commitment period) if they have a bad fund, they cannot raise the next fund (they usually do so every 2-3 years) and the PE firm can fail to survive.

Michael Jensen at Harvard Business School, whose famous paper on firm governance (aligning shareholders with managers) kicked off the whole intellectual justification for the hostile M&A wave/ LBO wave from about 1980 (Michael Milliken, with junk bonds, provided the other leg of the stool), wrote (about 15 years ago) that if PE firms lost the discipline of having to raise new capital every 5-10 years, the advantages they bring to governance would be lost*. They, themselves, would become another Principal-Agent misalignment problem, just as large public corporations were -- more wanting to hoard capital (and earn fees managing it) than seeking to generate returns for Limited Partner investors.

* holding a large & illiquid stake and sitting on the Boards of the owned companies. Thus paying close attention to the allocation of capital - whereas big public shareholders will simply sell the shares. Any number of former CEOs of public companies have been quoted (or will say in private) how frustrating they found the world of quarterly reporting and ever-changing shareholder base to be.

That, plus the fact senior managers own a meaningful stake in the company (say 5-6%) should mean much greater alignment of interests.

The Principal-Agent misalignment in the PE world comes in the fees. That "2 & 20%" (200 basis points pa for committed funds + 20% carried interest performance fee) and the sheer scale of the fees for a big firm has put a wedge between the interests of the PE firm & its execs and the interests of their Limited Partners.

There's also a whole host of issues around misreporting of performance statistics and opacity in same.

David Swensen is right. Unless you have demonstrable skill as an investor in picking good PE funds to invest in (and being able to get access to those funds), you are better off not investing. There are "hot hands" (to what extent is debatable) in PE (and absolutely there are in VC, which is why the average VC Limited Partner has no chance whatsoever) but your ability to pick those (in advance) and your access to them is much more debatable.

There is one investor who uses PE like techniques (extreme attention to returns on capital) to manage a diverse portfolio of businesses. In addition he runs his own fund management company extremely frugally, and pays himself a relative pittance. So you don't have the fees problem as an investor in his fund. His main problem is now one of age and succession.

The firm is called Berkshire (mispronounced "Berk" when it should be "Bark" ;-) Hathaway and the guy's name is French: Buffet-something. I think it's US listed, as well ;-).
Berkshire, Barkshire
Barkshire, Berkshire
Let's call the whole thing off.

Kidding aside, Berkshire-Hathaway would be another good proxy for private equity. It has been trailing the S&P 500 performance for a while. B-H has a size problem, just too big.
A fool and his money are good for business.

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nedsaid
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by nedsaid » Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:58 pm

JoMoney wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:27 am
nedsaid wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 10:18 am
...
It sounds like this is in response to a shrinking public stock market.
What I read, seemed to imply they might just be looking to fill a gap in illiquid alts for institutional/HNW clients
... These clients pay an additional fee for the firm to assemble portfolios for them with Vanguard products, which include some liquid alternatives. Vanguard has no illiquid alternatives products to offer these clients now...
There is an illiquidity premium, not sure how large it is. Again, a potential problem of the fees eating up most if not all of the premiums. Something like private equity is pretty difficult to get cheaply. Everybody wants their cut.
A fool and his money are good for business.

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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by Sconie » Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:43 pm

whodidntante wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:27 pm
Tycoon wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:25 am
I'm am starting to question Vanguard's business plan.
I learned on this forum that the ownership structure of Vanguard is better and the Johnson family et al might trick us out of our money. Try calling in like you own the place. :happy
But wouldn't it be wonderful if Vanguard actually communicated with us as though we were real---instead of, at best, indirect----owners? Like telling us what the business strategy and goals are----or even (God forbid) being transparent and letting us have our say on Vanguard's executive compensation.... :wink:
I know you think you understand what you thought I said but I'm not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant. - Alan Greenspan

afan
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by afan » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:20 pm

If enough Vanguard shareholders cared enough they could force more disclosure. Or vote with their feet and take their business ...where? Fidelity? JP Morgan?
We don't know how to beat the market on a risk-adjusted basis, and we don't know anyone that does know either | --Swedroe | We assume that markets are efficient, that prices are right | --Fama

Valuethinker
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by Valuethinker » Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:44 pm

Sconie wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:43 pm
whodidntante wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:27 pm
Tycoon wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:25 am
I'm am starting to question Vanguard's business plan.
I learned on this forum that the ownership structure of Vanguard is better and the Johnson family et al might trick us out of our money. Try calling in like you own the place. :happy
But wouldn't it be wonderful if Vanguard actually communicated with us as though we were real---instead of, at best, indirect----owners? Like telling us what the business strategy and goals are----or even (God forbid) being transparent and letting us have our say on Vanguard's executive compensation.... :wink:
I finally managed to become a customer of Vanguard UK, about 35 years after I first read of Vanguard in Burton Malkiel, and 18 years after I first read John Bogle's books. And there is no pretense (as far as I know) that as such I am an "owner" - and I don't know what the legal structure actually is.

However mass rule of corporations does not have a good track record. At least it was tried in Yugoslavia in the Tito years as an alternative to Marxist-Leninist "democratic centralism" (all dictatorships thrive on paradoxical statements as George Orwell pointed out Ministry of Truth, Ministry of Peace etc.).

It didn't work too well. The workers voted themselves pay rises even when that put the company into a position where it needed a state bailout. There was no concept of unemployment and business failure, thus no break on the actions of employees.

(there have been happier examples. John Lewis Partners, the UK department store chain, is configured like an ordinary company, but employees are "partners" and owners and receive an annual dividend as a bonus. There are employee councils to filter up feedback to higher levels of management")

On exec pay I can see why it rankles, and there is surely a problem with executive compensation, (not only) in America. In effect, executives are being paid for beta, but not for genuine alpha.

But I am not sure that VG investors in aggregate would make good strategic decisions, and would probably be unwieldy at best. Exec comp is probably best set by reference to asset management industry norms - as far as I know, VG does not pay well compared to competitors-- Larry Fink (Blackrock) say vs. the current CEO of Vanguard? You or I are not well placed to determine what the CEO of Vanguard is "worth". Saying that Boards of Directors don't get it right is not the same thing as saying that we *will* get it right.

I keep thinking of Gus Van Sauter, say, who ran a team that eventually managed hundreds of billions of (mostly fixed income?) assets. What is his contribution actually worth? Could it not in fact have been many times his actual compensation?

A greater risk, and this happened in the UK to the mutually owned building societies (mortgage lenders), would be an activist group of owners get a motion going to demutualize. In effect that hands current customers a windfall, but it strips that away from all future customers - the invisible bonds that tie us to our future, that make up a civilization, the idea that we build not only for ourselves and our children, but for other peoples' children and grandchildren and so on into forever, that's a central concept of civilization.

What's to stop such an activist shareholder group stripping out Vanguard's resources to pay a dividend? Or even increasing fund fees to increase profitability so the business could be demutualized?

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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:09 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 3:44 pm
Sconie wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 1:43 pm
whodidntante wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:27 pm
Tycoon wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:25 am
I'm am starting to question Vanguard's business plan.
I learned on this forum that the ownership structure of Vanguard is better and the Johnson family et al might trick us out of our money. Try calling in like you own the place. :happy
But wouldn't it be wonderful if Vanguard actually communicated with us as though we were real---instead of, at best, indirect----owners? Like telling us what the business strategy and goals are----or even (God forbid) being transparent and letting us have our say on Vanguard's executive compensation.... :wink:
I finally managed to become a customer of Vanguard UK, about 35 years after I first read of Vanguard in Burton Malkiel, and 18 years after I first read John Bogle's books. And there is no pretense (as far as I know) that as such I am an "owner" - and I don't know what the legal structure actually is.

However mass rule of corporations does not have a good track record. At least it was tried in Yugoslavia in the Tito years as an alternative to Marxist-Leninist "democratic centralism" (all dictatorships thrive on paradoxical statements as George Orwell pointed out Ministry of Truth, Ministry of Peace etc.).

It didn't work too well. The workers voted themselves pay rises even when that put the company into a position where it needed a state bailout. There was no concept of unemployment and business failure, thus no break on the actions of employees.

(there have been happier examples. John Lewis Partners, the UK department store chain, is configured like an ordinary company, but employees are "partners" and owners and receive an annual dividend as a bonus. There are employee councils to filter up feedback to higher levels of management")

On exec pay I can see why it rankles, and there is surely a problem with executive compensation, (not only) in America. In effect, executives are being paid for beta, but not for genuine alpha.

But I am not sure that VG investors in aggregate would make good strategic decisions, and would probably be unwieldy at best. Exec comp is probably best set by reference to asset management industry norms - as far as I know, VG does not pay well compared to competitors-- Larry Fink (Blackrock) say vs. the current CEO of Vanguard? You or I are not well placed to determine what the CEO of Vanguard is "worth". Saying that Boards of Directors don't get it right is not the same thing as saying that we *will* get it right.

I keep thinking of Gus Van Sauter, say, who ran a team that eventually managed hundreds of billions of (mostly fixed income?) assets. What is his contribution actually worth? Could it not in fact have been many times his actual compensation?

A greater risk, and this happened in the UK to the mutually owned building societies (mortgage lenders), would be an activist group of owners get a motion going to demutualize. In effect that hands current customers a windfall, but it strips that away from all future customers - the invisible bonds that tie us to our future, that make up a civilization, the idea that we build not only for ourselves and our children, but for other peoples' children and grandchildren and so on into forever, that's a central concept of civilization.

What's to stop such an activist shareholder group stripping out Vanguard's resources to pay a dividend? Or even increasing fund fees to increase profitability so the business could be demutualized?
Demutualization could be a windfall for long-term Vanguard clients.

I received a few bucks when Met!ife demutualized.

No matter what happens, you ALWAYS have to look at what activities do to you personally.

These things are foremost business decisions. And every decision can/will affect all/some people.


Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

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AerialWombat
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by AerialWombat » Mon Jun 24, 2019 4:59 pm

Since the majority of my paper “wealth” is locked up in private equity, I wouldn’t mind having a Vanguard PE fund to sell some of my shares off to. :)
“Life doesn’t come with a warranty.” -Michael LeBoeuf

cheezit
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by cheezit » Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:03 pm

JackoC wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:25 pm
cheezit wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:53 am
JackoC wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:30 am
cheezit wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:12 am
samstar wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 3:57 pm
PE ownership in a lot of ways is a superior way for companies to build value.
What experience do you have working for firms owned by private equity companies? IME a PE firm is the worst possible owner. I am extremely lucky that my current employer had a brief tenure being owned by a PE firm, and that the PE firm found it more profitable to flip us quickly than to strip us. The foreign conglomerate they sold us to has been angelic by comparison.
In the long term in theory there should be a basic alignment of worker and investor interests: if one is broadly and consistently unhappy the other will also probably be unhappy eventually.
What PE firms do you know of that do anything for the long term (in either the general sense or the specific sense of "long term" used in economics)? I stand by my contention that PE is not generally intended to build value, but rather to extract it. ...

You can call this a lot of things, perhaps even a good investment for an outside investor (distinct from the partners of the PE firm)...
But all we are talking about here is whether it's a good investment for an outside investor. You seem to have just further clarified that your point is off topic, whatever its validity might be. One can question whether all kinds of things which boost profitability, at public stock companies also, are in the interests of people besides the investors. Here we talk about investing.
My post was a direct reply to an assertion made in another post. If you think the conversation in both the post that I quoted and my response there was beyond the scope of this forum, go ahead and report both posts to the moderators - they do a great job of removing posts or subsets thereof that violate the forum rules. I don't understand why you've bothered to half defend the assertion that private equity is or can be a "superior way for companies to build value" and half claim that the contention over whether PE firms tend to build value or extract/transfer it beyond the scope of this forum, but that's none of my business.

samstar
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by samstar » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:25 pm

......
Last edited by samstar on Thu Jul 11, 2019 2:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

JackoC
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by JackoC » Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:34 am

cheezit wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 6:03 pm
JackoC wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 12:25 pm
cheezit wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:53 am
JackoC wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:30 am
cheezit wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 8:12 am


What experience do you have working for firms owned by private equity companies? IME a PE firm is the worst possible owner. I am extremely lucky that my current employer had a brief tenure being owned by a PE firm, and that the PE firm found it more profitable to flip us quickly than to strip us. The foreign conglomerate they sold us to has been angelic by comparison.
In the long term in theory there should be a basic alignment of worker and investor interests: if one is broadly and consistently unhappy the other will also probably be unhappy eventually.
What PE firms do you know of that do anything for the long term (in either the general sense or the specific sense of "long term" used in economics)? I stand by my contention that PE is not generally intended to build value, but rather to extract it. ...

You can call this a lot of things, perhaps even a good investment for an outside investor (distinct from the partners of the PE firm)...
But all we are talking about here is whether it's a good investment for an outside investor. You seem to have just further clarified that your point is off topic, whatever its validity might be. One can question whether all kinds of things which boost profitability, at public stock companies also, are in the interests of people besides the investors. Here we talk about investing.
My post was a direct reply to an assertion made in another post. If you think the conversation in both the post that I quoted and my response there was beyond the scope of this forum, go ahead and report both posts to the moderators - they do a great job of removing posts or subsets thereof that violate the forum rules. I don't understand why you've bothered to half defend the assertion that private equity is or can be a "superior way for companies to build value" and half claim that the contention over whether PE firms tend to build value or extract/transfer it beyond the scope of this forum, but that's none of my business.
I don't know what you're on about now wrt moderators. I'm simply saying your point is irrelevant to this discussion once you admit
"You can call this a lot of things, perhaps even a good investment for an outside investor (distinct from the partners of the PE firm)..."
you've conceded the only point made by the original poster that's relevant to this discussion, whether PE creates value *for investors in PE*. That's all 'creates value' means in this context. If you want to explore the effects of value creation for investors on other people, which can be negative, that's again something we could do just as much for many of the actions of managements of public stock firms.

ribonucleic
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Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by ribonucleic » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:35 pm

Tycoon wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:25 am
I'm indifferent about the offering. I'm am starting to question Vanguard's business plan.
And this isn't the first Vanguard news that suggests to me that they may be taking their eyes off their knitting.

Silence Dogood
Posts: 1008
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:22 pm

Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by Silence Dogood » Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:22 pm

Whakamole wrote:
Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:07 am
The pop-ups and banner ads plugging PAS bug me more than this.
I just noticed this today when I logged on to download my quarterly statement. It's one thing to have an appropriately sized banner ad on the side of the website informing clients about this option, it's another thing to have a large pop-up after I sign in along with a large banner ad on the main accounts page. :annoyed

Broken Man 1999
Posts: 2933
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 11:31 am

Re: Vanguard to offer private equity investments? Thoughts?

Post by Broken Man 1999 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:02 pm

ribonucleic wrote:
Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:35 pm
Tycoon wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:25 am
I'm indifferent about the offering. I'm am starting to question Vanguard's business plan.
And this isn't the first Vanguard news that suggests to me that they may be taking their eyes off their knitting.
Good. They need to master more skills. I think they have knitting down pretty well. Perhaps private equity can be their crocheting.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven than I shall not go. " -Mark Twain

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