Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

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Benosis
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Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Benosis »

Below are 3 portfolios. Each one has an initial balance of 10k and has another 10k contributed every year. One portfolio 100% in Large Cap, next 100% in Mid Cap, and last 100% in Small Cap.

Image

Image

Mid Cap outperforms both Small & Large with higher CAGR & TWRR with a final balance of $44.6 mil compared to Large Cap which had $25.7 mil & small Cap with $37.7 mil.

(Note: Total Market in the same scenario had a final balance of $29.5 mil)

So why when I always see recommendations, I see people saying either just go 100% large cap, or go 80-90 large cap and 10-20% small cap for the tilt. I almost never see people going mid caps, even when it has outperformed for 50 years. Usually people say tilt more towards small cap, but shouldn't you tilt more towards mid cap?

Why is this the case?
Last edited by Benosis on Fri May 17, 2019 9:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by The Wizard »

Perhaps Mel hasn't been posting as much as he used to?
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JoMoney
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by JoMoney »

You need to search for: "Mel's unloved mid caps"
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by MotoTrojan »

Just an fyi that when you use a contribution in portfolio visualizer, CAGR is calculated as if that was a gain. Don't get excited and think a lump-sum of $10K into mid-caps in 1972 would've yielded 19%. I believe MWRR is most applicable to comparing portfolios when contributing regularly.

I would be curious to know more about where this data came from. A lot of people hold Vanguard small-cap which follows the CRSP index and is biased pretty heavily towards mid-caps (50/50 realm) when compared to say the S&P600 or Russell 2000 which have median cap sizes about half as small.
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Benosis
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Benosis »

MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:19 pm Just an fyi that when you use a contribution in portfolio visualizer, CAGR is calculated as if that was a gain. Don't get excited and think a lump-sum of $10K into mid-caps in 1972 would've yielded 19%. I believe MWRR is most applicable to comparing portfolios when contributing regularly.

I would be curious to know more about where this data came from. A lot of people hold Vanguard small-cap which follows the CRSP index and is biased pretty heavily towards mid-caps (50/50 realm) when compared to say the S&P600 or Russell 2000 which have median cap sizes about half as small.
Data came from here

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... total3=100
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JoMoney
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by JoMoney »

FWIW, there's a big gray-area between small caps and large caps that people call "mid caps".
There are mid cap indexes, but different index providers divide the size up differently, and in some of them it's just a big overlap that takes the bottom end of their 'large cap' index and the top end of their 'small cap' index.
The S&P 400 (mid cap) index does not overlap with either the S&P 600 (small cap) nor the S&P 500.
The Russell Midcap Index is just the Russell 1000 (large cap) minus the Russell Top 200 index (mega caps)

If you look at this chart, you'll notice a big divergence in the performance between these two indexes... and this was precisely the period where most of the out performance in mid-caps occurred.
Image
Last edited by JoMoney on Fri May 17, 2019 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by MotoTrojan »

Benosis wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:24 pm
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:19 pm Just an fyi that when you use a contribution in portfolio visualizer, CAGR is calculated as if that was a gain. Don't get excited and think a lump-sum of $10K into mid-caps in 1972 would've yielded 19%. I believe MWRR is most applicable to comparing portfolios when contributing regularly.

I would be curious to know more about where this data came from. A lot of people hold Vanguard small-cap which follows the CRSP index and is biased pretty heavily towards mid-caps (50/50 realm) when compared to say the S&P600 or Russell 2000 which have median cap sizes about half as small.
Data came from here

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... total3=100
Understood, I meant the raw data. As I noted there is a pretty incredible difference in what the CRSP Index and S&P600 consider small-cap for example.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Jags4186 »

MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:27 pm
Benosis wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:24 pm
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:19 pm Just an fyi that when you use a contribution in portfolio visualizer, CAGR is calculated as if that was a gain. Don't get excited and think a lump-sum of $10K into mid-caps in 1972 would've yielded 19%. I believe MWRR is most applicable to comparing portfolios when contributing regularly.

I would be curious to know more about where this data came from. A lot of people hold Vanguard small-cap which follows the CRSP index and is biased pretty heavily towards mid-caps (50/50 realm) when compared to say the S&P600 or Russell 2000 which have median cap sizes about half as small.
Data came from here

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... total3=100
Understood, I meant the raw data. As I noted there is a pretty incredible difference in what the CRSP Index and S&P600 consider small-cap for example.
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/his ... ss-returns
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by MotoTrojan »

Jags4186 wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:33 pm
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:27 pm
Benosis wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:24 pm
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:19 pm Just an fyi that when you use a contribution in portfolio visualizer, CAGR is calculated as if that was a gain. Don't get excited and think a lump-sum of $10K into mid-caps in 1972 would've yielded 19%. I believe MWRR is most applicable to comparing portfolios when contributing regularly.

I would be curious to know more about where this data came from. A lot of people hold Vanguard small-cap which follows the CRSP index and is biased pretty heavily towards mid-caps (50/50 realm) when compared to say the S&P600 or Russell 2000 which have median cap sizes about half as small.
Data came from here

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... total3=100
Understood, I meant the raw data. As I noted there is a pretty incredible difference in what the CRSP Index and S&P600 consider small-cap for example.
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/his ... ss-returns
Interesting. Appears they used Vanguards small funds which I believe transitioned to CRSP only in the last decade or so. Not even consistent in that regard.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Mel Lindauer »

I started recommending mid-caps nearly 20 years ago in a discussion with Larry Swedroe on the old Morningstar Vanguard Diehards forum.

I suggested that mid caps might be a good single equity holding and that it could be better than Larry's slice and dice portfolio of large and small.

Over the years, they became known as "Mel's Unloved Mid-Caps".

Time has been good to me and those who agreed with me.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by permport »

Don't go down the rabbit hole. Stick to total market! :happy
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Seasonal
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Seasonal »

Why do you believe that prior outperformance should lead to a recommendation?
joeschmo
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by joeschmo »

If we believe that we can't beat the market, then why do we try to by weighting toward different market caps? (Not trying to troll - I do understand the temptation but always came back to just buying Total Stock Market.)
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Jags4186 »

MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 10:50 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:33 pm
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:27 pm
Benosis wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:24 pm
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:19 pm Just an fyi that when you use a contribution in portfolio visualizer, CAGR is calculated as if that was a gain. Don't get excited and think a lump-sum of $10K into mid-caps in 1972 would've yielded 19%. I believe MWRR is most applicable to comparing portfolios when contributing regularly.

I would be curious to know more about where this data came from. A lot of people hold Vanguard small-cap which follows the CRSP index and is biased pretty heavily towards mid-caps (50/50 realm) when compared to say the S&P600 or Russell 2000 which have median cap sizes about half as small.
Data came from here

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... total3=100
Understood, I meant the raw data. As I noted there is a pretty incredible difference in what the CRSP Index and S&P600 consider small-cap for example.
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/his ... ss-returns
Interesting. Appears they used Vanguards small funds which I believe transitioned to CRSP only in the last decade or so. Not even consistent in that regard.
US Mid Cap Blend
Professor Kenneth French's Research Data1 1972-1998
Vanguard Mid Cap Index Fund (VIMSX) 1999+

US Small Cap Blend
Professor Kenneth French's Research Data1 1972-1989
Vanguard Small Cap Index Fund (NAESX) 1990+
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Tycoon »

Mel Lindauer wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 pm I started recommending mid-caps nearly 20 years ago in a discussion with Larry Swedroe on the old Morningstar Vanguard Diehards forum.

I suggested that mid caps might be a good single equity holding and that it could be better than Larry's slice and dice portfolio of large and small.

Over the years, they became known as "Mel's Unloved Mid-Caps".

Time has been good to me and those who agreed with me.
Indeed!!!
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by DB2 »

Benosis wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:07 pm Below are 3 portfolios. Each one has an initial balance of 10k and has another 10k contributed every year. One portfolio 100% in Large Cap, next 100% in Mid Cap, and last 100% in Small Cap.

Image

Image

Mid Cap outperforms both Small & Large with higher CAGR & TWRR with a final balance of $44.6 mil compared to Large Cap which had $25.7 mil & small Cap with $37.7 mil.

(Note: Total Market in the same scenario had a final balance of $29.5 mil)

So why when I always see recommendations, I see people saying either just go 100% large cap, or go 80-90 large cap and 10-20% small cap for the tilt. I almost never see people going mid caps, even when it has outperformed for 50 years. Usually people say tilt more towards small cap, but shouldn't you tilt more towards mid cap?

Why is this the case?
If I backtest the last 15 years, all three caps are about even in terms of CAGR.

One certainly would have done well with 100% mid cap since 1972, but I cannot help but wonder if some of this is reversion to the mean. And who's to say what the next 10-40 years will hold? Total Market still seems like the prudent choice in my opinion.

Now it's quite possible and even likely one cap will outperform out of the three over the next 10-40 years; but which one? We don't know and I don't want to bet on it, so holding the total market just makes more sense (in my opinion).
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by unclescrooge »

Could one make the case that mid caps are the intersection of small cap growth and large cap value?
Last edited by unclescrooge on Sat May 18, 2019 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by MotoTrojan »

Jags4186 wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 8:35 am
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 10:50 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:33 pm
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:27 pm
Benosis wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:24 pm

Data came from here

https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/bac ... total3=100
Understood, I meant the raw data. As I noted there is a pretty incredible difference in what the CRSP Index and S&P600 consider small-cap for example.
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/his ... ss-returns
Interesting. Appears they used Vanguards small funds which I believe transitioned to CRSP only in the last decade or so. Not even consistent in that regard.
US Mid Cap Blend
Professor Kenneth French's Research Data1 1972-1998
Vanguard Mid Cap Index Fund (VIMSX) 1999+

US Small Cap Blend
Professor Kenneth French's Research Data1 1972-1989
Vanguard Small Cap Index Fund (NAESX) 1990+
Yes, that is what I just said. Fairly certain NAESX followed the Russell 2000 until sometime in the last decade or so and now tracks the CRSP which biases much more so towards mid-caps, so not very consistent.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Kenkat »

A lot of people who diversify towards smaller stocks using Vanguard funds hold a lot of mid-caps. Most of Vanguard’s small cap funds hold both small- and mid-cap stocks. Funds such as Primecap and Capital Opportunity hold mid-cap stocks in quantity. Not everyone who believes in slice and dice or size/value factor investing implements it the same way, so many of those types of investors are in effect are recommending mid-cap stocks as well as small-cap stocks.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by nedsaid »

Mel Lindauer wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 pm I started recommending mid-caps nearly 20 years ago in a discussion with Larry Swedroe on the old Morningstar Vanguard Diehards forum.

I suggested that mid caps might be a good single equity holding and that it could be better than Larry's slice and dice portfolio of large and small.

Over the years, they became known as "Mel's Unloved Mid-Caps".

Time has been good to me and those who agreed with me.
Mel, whenever Larry publishes his next book on the "Mid-Cap Factor" then it will all be over. There are folks out there who believe that Mid-Caps are the "Sweet Spot" for stock investors. Better to keep quiet and keep the premium going. The Academics and all their publishing just ruins everything. Small/Value tilting stopped outperforming just as I bought into it in 2007/2008. Mid-Cap is still under the radar and I prefer to keep it that way. As far as the factor premiums, it seems that most "Small-Cap" funds and indexes have a hefty amount of Mid-Caps. Vanguard Small-Cap Value Index is a good example.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Socrates »

it seems that most "Small-Cap" funds and indexes have a hefty amount of Mid-Caps. Vanguard Small-Cap Value Index is a good example.
You are right. Vanguard small cap value index is more mid cap than small cap.

24 23 7
25 17 4

IJS in the other hand almost all small cap

0 1 0
39 45 17


I use both as my 403(b) has VSIAX as one of only a few options and I have little room in my IRA, but I did pick up IJS.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by nedsaid »

I do own Vanguard Small-Cap Value Index ETF and I have been very pleased with it. Good enough is good enough and close enough is close enough.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Jags4186 »

MotoTrojan wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:18 am
Jags4186 wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 8:35 am
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 10:50 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:33 pm
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:27 pm

Understood, I meant the raw data. As I noted there is a pretty incredible difference in what the CRSP Index and S&P600 consider small-cap for example.
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/his ... ss-returns
Interesting. Appears they used Vanguards small funds which I believe transitioned to CRSP only in the last decade or so. Not even consistent in that regard.
US Mid Cap Blend
Professor Kenneth French's Research Data1 1972-1998
Vanguard Mid Cap Index Fund (VIMSX) 1999+

US Small Cap Blend
Professor Kenneth French's Research Data1 1972-1989
Vanguard Small Cap Index Fund (NAESX) 1990+
Yes, that is what I just said. Fairly certain NAESX followed the Russell 2000 until sometime in the last decade or so and now tracks the CRSP which biases much more so towards mid-caps, so not very consistent.
Yes but it is a more realistic representation of what someone might receive by ways of returns. Not sure how many non Bogleheads are paying that much attention to the underlying index being tracked by their particular fund as long as it is still in the purported asset class.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by panine »

unclescrooge wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 10:10 am Could one make the case that mid caps are the intersection of small cap growth and large cap value?
This is exactly how I see them. They've done very well for us.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by TomCat96 »

Mel Lindauer wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 pm I started recommending mid-caps nearly 20 years ago in a discussion with Larry Swedroe on the old Morningstar Vanguard Diehards forum.

I suggested that mid caps might be a good single equity holding and that it could be better than Larry's slice and dice portfolio of large and small.

Over the years, they became known as "Mel's Unloved Mid-Caps".

Time has been good to me and those who agreed with me.
Mel I wasn't here when you first made your suggestion. But a few years ago I did look back on your posts and found them influential in my current decision to go 100% Small and Midcap allocation in the extended fund. Time has been good to me as well thus far.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by TomCat96 »

nedsaid wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:26 am
Mel Lindauer wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 pm I started recommending mid-caps nearly 20 years ago in a discussion with Larry Swedroe on the old Morningstar Vanguard Diehards forum.

I suggested that mid caps might be a good single equity holding and that it could be better than Larry's slice and dice portfolio of large and small.

Over the years, they became known as "Mel's Unloved Mid-Caps".

Time has been good to me and those who agreed with me.
Mel, whenever Larry publishes his next book on the "Mid-Cap Factor" then it will all be over. There are folks out there who believe that Mid-Caps are the "Sweet Spot" for stock investors. Better to keep quiet and keep the premium going. The Academics and all their publishing just ruins everything. Small/Value tilting stopped outperforming just as I bought into it in 2007/2008. Mid-Cap is still under the radar and I prefer to keep it that way. As far as the factor premiums, it seems that most "Small-Cap" funds and indexes have a hefty amount of Mid-Caps. Vanguard Small-Cap Value Index is a good example.
I do think it's been kind of an oddity how much Midcaps have flown under the radar. I decided to take a more diversified approach to my midcap allocation in the form of the extended fund--essentially small cap growth/value, midcap growth and value. I believe when I started the total US market was 81% and 19% for the SP500/ Extended fund weighting. I cant find the data at the moment but I believe now it is 78% and 22%. Certainly I've seen my portfolio grow faster than the broader market.

And to be frank, Im perfectly content that it remains under the radar. If anything, that's probably how the greater than broader market gains are possible.

edited: I wanted to add a little more. For those that have read "The Intelligent Investor", one of the recommendations is to buy the "unpopular large company" I can't help but think this is the what the midcaps have ended up as. A successful midcap is probably going to fly under the radar, without the constant press of the blue chips.

I don't think it's as simple as saying the market is efficient and therefore unbeatable. In a general sense yes it is. But anomalies do pop up every now and then. Undoubtedly. They have to, by virtue of a perfectly efficient market being physically impossible. Wall Street has a tendency of group thinking. Blue chip purchases are easy to justify. But heaven help the poor analyst that decides to invest in the unloved midcap nobody has ever heard of with the healthy balance sheet and have it go down at an inopportune time.
Last edited by TomCat96 on Sat May 18, 2019 11:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by nedsaid »

TomCat96 wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:13 pm
nedsaid wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:26 am
Mel Lindauer wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 11:54 pm I started recommending mid-caps nearly 20 years ago in a discussion with Larry Swedroe on the old Morningstar Vanguard Diehards forum.

I suggested that mid caps might be a good single equity holding and that it could be better than Larry's slice and dice portfolio of large and small.

Over the years, they became known as "Mel's Unloved Mid-Caps".

Time has been good to me and those who agreed with me.
Mel, whenever Larry publishes his next book on the "Mid-Cap Factor" then it will all be over. There are folks out there who believe that Mid-Caps are the "Sweet Spot" for stock investors. Better to keep quiet and keep the premium going. The Academics and all their publishing just ruins everything. Small/Value tilting stopped outperforming just as I bought into it in 2007/2008. Mid-Cap is still under the radar and I prefer to keep it that way. As far as the factor premiums, it seems that most "Small-Cap" funds and indexes have a hefty amount of Mid-Caps. Vanguard Small-Cap Value Index is a good example.
I do think it's been kind of an oddity how much Midcaps have flown under the radar. I decided to take a more diversified approach to my midcap allocation in the form of the extended fund--essentially small cap growth/value, midcap growth and value. I believe when I started the total US market was 81% and 19% for the SP500/ Extended fund weighting. I cant find the data at the moment but I believe now it is 78% and 22%. Certainly I've seen my portfolio grow faster than the broader market.

And to be frank, Im perfectly content that it remains under the radar. If anything, that's probably how the greater than broader market gains are possible.
Can't speak for Larry Swedroe but I think I know what he would say. He would say that the size factor is less prominent with Mid-Caps than with Small-Caps, you get most of the return but also with less volatility. Further, he would say the same about the Value factor, you get most of the Value factor with Mid-Caps but also with less volatility of Small-Caps. So if you have to use Mid-Caps to capture Size and Value factors, you don't sacrifice very much in return but there is also less volatility.

However, it does appear to my untrained eye that Mid-Caps and not Small-Caps are the "Sweet Sport" for the Stock Market. It seems that Mid-Caps get you more return than Small-Caps. But hard to tell because so many Small-Cap funds contain a lot of Mid-Caps. The distinctions get blurred and so Larry would probably be right.

Thing is, Larry monitors these threads and if I am completely off base, I am sure I will hear from him. If I do, I will report back. But then again, maybe Larry is a closet Mid-Caps fan and maybe he obscures this in his writings to keep the secret between him and Mel Lindauer. :wink:
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by petulant »

Time periods matter. Sure, for 1972-2019 so far, mid-cap beats the U.S. stock market by compounding at about a 1.6% higher rate. But consider this:

From January 1972 to December 1981, mid-cap compounded at 9.25 and U.S. stocks at 7.24.

From January 1982 to December 1997, mid-cap compounded at 16.88 and U.S. stocks at 16.36. Note that mid-cap was also more volatile.

From January 1998 to December 2004, mid-cap compounded at 10.82 and U.S. stocks at 5.13.

From January 2005 to December 2019, mid-cap compounded at 9.12 and U.S. stocks at 8.71. Mid-cap stocks were also notably more volatile.

I would submit that the entire "premium" exhibited by mid-cap (and small-cap) under this kind of backtesting happened in two historical periods: 1972 to 1981 and 1998 to 2004. Although mid-cap outperformed during the other periods, the outperformance is not significant in the context of the higher standard deviation (no risk-adjusted outperformance). What happened in 1972 to 1981 and 1998 to 2004? Here is a historical P/E chart of the S&P 500:

Image

The S&P 500 started the 1970s at a healthy P/E ratio in the 17-20 range. It then crashed after the 1973 Arab oil embargo, reaching as low as 7ish by 1980. This covered the exact period of mid-cap outperformance. I don't know the exact story how this happened--perhaps at the time publicly traded oil companies were large (Exxon, Chevron, etc.) and there were fewer independents publicly traded as mid-caps. But it was a definite historical event, and there's an explanation why the pain was felt by big companies but not mid-caps or small-caps.

Another strange event happened in the late 1990s. Many of you lived through it--the dot-com bubble. People bid up stocks to enormous P/E ratios. The S&P 500 crossed a P/E of 30 two years before a recession even started in 2001. I don't know why people bid up large-caps that then went down, but there is an explanation why the "irrational exuberance" was felt for large companies that didn't ultimately grow that fast without the same problem for small-caps or mid-caps as a whole.

So, in my mind, betting on mid-cap or small-cap stocks based on this data is betting that there will be another significant historical event like the dot-com bubble or the Arab oil embargo with the pain concentrated on large-cap stocks. On the one hand, it seems like this bet wouldn't hurt since over long periods of time mid-cap and small-cap stocks generally do at least as well as large-cap stocks, so the stakes of being wrong aren't that bad. On the other hand, I don't see any reason for pain to be concentrated on large-cap stocks in the future unless there's a very specific industry concentration problem or something (like IT or media conglomerates being large-caps).
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by TomCat96 »

petulant wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:57 pm
So, in my mind, betting on mid-cap or small-cap stocks based on this data is betting that there will be another significant historical event like the dot-com bubble or the Arab oil embargo with the pain concentrated on large-cap stocks. On the one hand, it seems like this bet wouldn't hurt since over long periods of time mid-cap and small-cap stocks generally do at least as well as large-cap stocks, so the stakes of being wrong aren't that bad. On the other hand, I don't see any reason for pain to be concentrated on large-cap stocks in the future unless there's a very specific industry concentration problem or something (like IT or media conglomerates being large-caps).

Im not so sure one can point out the reasons for the additional performance of midcaps during those periods is due to the oil embargo or the dot-com bubble. In other words, I wouldn't go so far as to say it works out to a bet on some historical event.

But I think what is sufficient to conclude is that a person generally is in fact compensated for the additional volatility they take on when overweighting midcaps. I don't think that's always the case, as I saw in my backtesting with emerging markets or small caps. (and also pointed out by the OP which indicates midcaps have outperformed the generally more volatile small caps for the past 50 years)

The superiority of midcaps as an investment which more than adequately compensates one for the additional volatility assumed is somewhat of an academic point to me, and probably to others as well, especially because such additional volatility might interact different with other elements in a portfolio. It's not necessarily the case that I need the individual components of a portfolio to be low risk, so long as the overall interaction of the risk of the elements of a portfolio is reduced through diversification. The important thing is that one is in fact compensated for additional volatility assumed in the form of returns.

The crux of your final paragraph is something I concluded as well. There doesn't seem to be much downside.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by petulant »

TomCat96 wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 1:23 am
petulant wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:57 pm
So, in my mind, betting on mid-cap or small-cap stocks based on this data is betting that there will be another significant historical event like the dot-com bubble or the Arab oil embargo with the pain concentrated on large-cap stocks. On the one hand, it seems like this bet wouldn't hurt since over long periods of time mid-cap and small-cap stocks generally do at least as well as large-cap stocks, so the stakes of being wrong aren't that bad. On the other hand, I don't see any reason for pain to be concentrated on large-cap stocks in the future unless there's a very specific industry concentration problem or something (like IT or media conglomerates being large-caps).

Im not so sure one can point out the reasons for the additional performance of midcaps during those periods is due to the oil embargo or the dot-com bubble. In other words, I wouldn't go so far as to say it works out to a bet on some historical event.

But I think what is sufficient to conclude is that a person generally is in fact compensated for the additional volatility they take on when overweighting midcaps. I don't think that's always the case, as I saw in my backtesting with emerging markets or small caps. (and also pointed out by the OP which indicates midcaps have outperformed the generally more volatile small caps for the past 50 years)

The superiority of midcaps as an investment which more than adequately compensates one for the additional volatility assumed is somewhat of an academic point to me, and probably to others as well, especially because such additional volatility might interact different with other elements in a portfolio. It's not necessarily the case that I need the individual components of a portfolio to be low risk, so long as the overall interaction of the risk of the elements of a portfolio is reduced through diversification. The important thing is that one is in fact compensated for additional volatility assumed in the form of returns.

The crux of your final paragraph is something I concluded as well. There doesn't seem to be much downside.
I think to ignore the impact of the oil embargo or dot-com bubble as explaining at least the reasons for large-cap underperformance would be short-sighted. To get to any more specific set of explanations, I am not sure about, which I was clear to say. These were once-in-a-lifetime events that dropped P/E to 7 or that raised it over 30 well before a recession, somehow doing both without killing small-cap/mid-cap performance--I think that is a headline. And it's worth talking about because if somebody was just doing the backtesting, the higher returns of small-cap/mid-cap are mouth-watering. It's a double-your-money difference over a lifetime. It would be crazy to ignore it unless there's something hiding in the data, like these two historical events, that might not be repeated in the future.

But yes, according to portfoliovisualizer backtesting, investors in mid-cap and small-cap stocks were generally compensated for added volatility, even outside the oil embargo and dot-com bubble. If that were the only issue, it would be six of one, half a dozen of the other since you could decide on 80/20 or 40/30/30 and possibly get the same outcome.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by ruralavalon »

MotoTrojan wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:18 am
Jags4186 wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 8:35 am
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 10:50 pm
Jags4186 wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:33 pm
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 9:27 pm

Understood, I meant the raw data. As I noted there is a pretty incredible difference in what the CRSP Index and S&P600 consider small-cap for example.
https://www.portfoliovisualizer.com/his ... ss-returns
Interesting. Appears they used Vanguards small funds which I believe transitioned to CRSP only in the last decade or so. Not even consistent in that regard.
US Mid Cap Blend
Professor Kenneth French's Research Data1 1972-1998
Vanguard Mid Cap Index Fund (VIMSX) 1999+

US Small Cap Blend
Professor Kenneth French's Research Data1 1972-1989
Vanguard Small Cap Index Fund (NAESX) 1990+
Yes, that is what I just said. Fairly certain NAESX followed the Russell 2000 until sometime in the last decade or so and now tracks the CRSP which biases much more so towards mid-caps, so not very consistent.
NAESX was organized in 1959, was an actively managed fund during most of its life, acquired by Vanguard 1989, became an index fund in 1994, and in 2003 moved from the Russell 2000 Index to the MSCI US Small Cap 1750 Index. Barry Barnitz post.

"Russell 2000 Index through May 16, 2003; MSCI US Small Cap 1750 Index through January 30, 2013; CRSP US Small Cap Index thereafter." Vanguard, NAESX, performance, benchmark footnote .
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by petulant »

ruralavalon wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 5:21 pm
MotoTrojan wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 11:18 am
Jags4186 wrote: Sat May 18, 2019 8:35 am
MotoTrojan wrote: Fri May 17, 2019 10:50 pm
Interesting. Appears they used Vanguards small funds which I believe transitioned to CRSP only in the last decade or so. Not even consistent in that regard.
US Mid Cap Blend
Professor Kenneth French's Research Data1 1972-1998
Vanguard Mid Cap Index Fund (VIMSX) 1999+

US Small Cap Blend
Professor Kenneth French's Research Data1 1972-1989
Vanguard Small Cap Index Fund (NAESX) 1990+
Yes, that is what I just said. Fairly certain NAESX followed the Russell 2000 until sometime in the last decade or so and now tracks the CRSP which biases much more so towards mid-caps, so not very consistent.
NAESX was organized in 1959, was an actively managed fund during most of its life, acquired by Vanguard 1989, became an index fund in 1994, and in 2003 moved from the Russell 2000 Index to the MSCI US Small Cap 1750 Index. Barry Barnitz post.

"Russell 2000 Index through May 16, 2003; MSCI US Small Cap 1750 Index through January 30, 2013; CRSP US Small Cap Index thereafter." Vanguard, NAESX, performance, benchmark footnote .
MotoTrojan is right this is a big issue for portfoliovisualizer backtesting. Russell 2000 is very different from CRSP's small-cap index since the latter includes a lot of mid-caps--one way I conceptualize is that CRSP's small-cap index contains a huge chunk of the S&P 400 Mid-Cap, then the S&P 600 Small-Cap, then some more smaller than that. Russell 2000 would be similar to the S&P 600 and on down. So you're different by a huge chunk of the S&P 400. See also the Vanguard benchmark comparison chart.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by klaus14 »

petulant wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 7:14 am
I think to ignore the impact of the oil embargo or dot-com bubble as explaining at least the reasons for large-cap underperformance would be short-sighted. To get to any more specific set of explanations, I am not sure about, which I was clear to say. These were once-in-a-lifetime events that dropped P/E to 7 or that raised it over 30 well before a recession, somehow doing both without killing small-cap/mid-cap performance--I think that is a headline. And it's worth talking about because if somebody was just doing the backtesting, the higher returns of small-cap/mid-cap are mouth-watering. It's a double-your-money difference over a lifetime. It would be crazy to ignore it unless there's something hiding in the data, like these two historical events, that might not be repeated in the future.

But yes, according to portfoliovisualizer backtesting, investors in mid-cap and small-cap stocks were generally compensated for added volatility, even outside the oil embargo and dot-com bubble. If that were the only issue, it would be six of one, half a dozen of the other since you could decide on 80/20 or 40/30/30 and possibly get the same outcome.
MCV and SCV also outperformed during early 90s. Then, was that due to Kuwait war?

By the way, this is great stuff. Of course, there will be another real international shock. And Large caps will get hit. Maybe EU will get more aggressive (edit) and stop large US tech companies extracting massive profits? Who knows?

These are all reasons for underweighting LC.
My investment algorithm: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=351899&p=6112869#p6112869
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by petulant »

klaus14 wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 6:39 pm
petulant wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 7:14 am
I think to ignore the impact of the oil embargo or dot-com bubble as explaining at least the reasons for large-cap underperformance would be short-sighted. To get to any more specific set of explanations, I am not sure about, which I was clear to say. These were once-in-a-lifetime events that dropped P/E to 7 or that raised it over 30 well before a recession, somehow doing both without killing small-cap/mid-cap performance--I think that is a headline. And it's worth talking about because if somebody was just doing the backtesting, the higher returns of small-cap/mid-cap are mouth-watering. It's a double-your-money difference over a lifetime. It would be crazy to ignore it unless there's something hiding in the data, like these two historical events, that might not be repeated in the future.

But yes, according to portfoliovisualizer backtesting, investors in mid-cap and small-cap stocks were generally compensated for added volatility, even outside the oil embargo and dot-com bubble. If that were the only issue, it would be six of one, half a dozen of the other since you could decide on 80/20 or 40/30/30 and possibly get the same outcome.
MCV and SCV also outperformed during early 90s. Then, was that due to Kuwait war?

By the way, this is great stuff. Of course, there will be another real international shock. And Large caps will get hit. Maybe EU will get more aggressive and stop large US tech companies extracting massive profits? Who knows?

These are all reasons for underweighting LC.
Actually mid-cap blend also outperformed for a few years in the mid-1990s. The issue is that both SCV and MCB crashed in the Asian financial crisis so that the total performance from 1982 to 1998 was basically on par, on a risk-adjusted basis, with total market. That kind of good period, bad period seasonality is what you would expect, evening out in the long-run so that SCV and MCB have slightly higher returns and higher volatility. This aligns with portfolio theory and makes SCV or MCB tilting a trade-off that could just as easily be replicated with reducing bond exposure in favor of more total market.

In the examples in OP, however, you see that MCB basically doubled the performance of total market from 1972 to 2019. That is eye-popping, it is much greater than expected by portfolio theory, and it could not be replicated by just holding more total market. And that is what I wanted to address. This eye-popping outperformance is entirely driven by 1972-1981 and 1998 to 2004. Basically, if you put money in SCV in 1972, you outperformed a lot over 10 years. This victory gap compounded at expected levels until 1999, when you got another 6 years of outperformance. From there the gap just compounded.

So the question is, will we see another one of these periods of crazy SC/MC outperformance, or might we even see a period of significant LC outperformance?
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by klaus14 »

petulant wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 7:41 pm
Actually mid-cap blend also outperformed for a few years in the mid-1990s. The issue is that both SCV and MCB crashed in the Asian financial crisis so that the total performance from 1982 to 1998 was basically on par, on a risk-adjusted basis, with total market. That kind of good period, bad period seasonality is what you would expect, evening out in the long-run so that SCV and MCB have slightly higher returns and higher volatility. This aligns with portfolio theory and makes SCV or MCB tilting a trade-off that could just as easily be replicated with reducing bond exposure in favor of more total market.
Why would anyone do that? Actually, Larry Portfolio does the opposite: overweight SCV so that you can get away with less equity which reduces left tail risk.
petulant wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 7:41 pm In the examples in OP, however, you see that MCB basically doubled the performance of total market from 1972 to 2019. That is eye-popping, it is much greater than expected by portfolio theory, and it could not be replicated by just holding more total market. And that is what I wanted to address. This eye-popping outperformance is entirely driven by 1972-1981 and 1998 to 2004. Basically, if you put money in SCV in 1972, you outperformed a lot over 10 years. This victory gap compounded at expected levels until 1999, when you got another 6 years of outperformance. From there the gap just compounded.

So the question is, will we see another one of these periods of crazy SC/MC outperformance, or might we even see a period of significant LC outperformance?
Sure, but same arguments also apply here.
If LC being more susceptible to international shocks in the past caused underperformance, same should happen in the future because it's hard to claim there won't be any other international shocks.
My investment algorithm: https://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=351899&p=6112869#p6112869
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by petulant »

klaus14 wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 7:55 pm
petulant wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 7:41 pm
Actually mid-cap blend also outperformed for a few years in the mid-1990s. The issue is that both SCV and MCB crashed in the Asian financial crisis so that the total performance from 1982 to 1998 was basically on par, on a risk-adjusted basis, with total market. That kind of good period, bad period seasonality is what you would expect, evening out in the long-run so that SCV and MCB have slightly higher returns and higher volatility. This aligns with portfolio theory and makes SCV or MCB tilting a trade-off that could just as easily be replicated with reducing bond exposure in favor of more total market.
Why would anyone do that? Actually, Larry Portfolio does the opposite: overweight SCV so that you can get away with less equity which reduces left tail risk a lot.
petulant wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 7:41 pm In the examples in OP, however, you see that MCB basically doubled the performance of total market from 1972 to 2019. That is eye-popping, it is much greater than expected by portfolio theory, and it could not be replicated by just holding more total market. And that is what I wanted to address. This eye-popping outperformance is entirely driven by 1972-1981 and 1998 to 2004. Basically, if you put money in SCV in 1972, you outperformed a lot over 10 years. This victory gap compounded at expected levels until 1999, when you got another 6 years of outperformance. From there the gap just compounded.

So the question is, will we see another one of these periods of crazy SC/MC outperformance, or might we even see a period of significant LC outperformance?
Sure, but same arguments also apply here.
If LC being more susceptible to international shocks in the past caused underperformance, same should happen in the future because it's hard to claim there won't be any other international shocks.
On the first point, that's exactly the same as what I said--SC/MC tilt is compatible with a higher bond holding, but you can get a similar total return from more total market and less bonds. That is, if the portfolio theory expectations are correct, which would exclude the 1972-1981 and 1998-2004 years.

And on the second point, that's the opposite of what I said--the Asian financial crisis tanked MC/SC more than LC and killed all outperformance since 1993.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by TomCat96 »

petulant wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 7:41 pm
klaus14 wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 6:39 pm
petulant wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 7:14 am
I think to ignore the impact of the oil embargo or dot-com bubble as explaining at least the reasons for large-cap underperformance would be short-sighted. To get to any more specific set of explanations, I am not sure about, which I was clear to say. These were once-in-a-lifetime events that dropped P/E to 7 or that raised it over 30 well before a recession, somehow doing both without killing small-cap/mid-cap performance--I think that is a headline. And it's worth talking about because if somebody was just doing the backtesting, the higher returns of small-cap/mid-cap are mouth-watering. It's a double-your-money difference over a lifetime. It would be crazy to ignore it unless there's something hiding in the data, like these two historical events, that might not be repeated in the future.

But yes, according to portfoliovisualizer backtesting, investors in mid-cap and small-cap stocks were generally compensated for added volatility, even outside the oil embargo and dot-com bubble. If that were the only issue, it would be six of one, half a dozen of the other since you could decide on 80/20 or 40/30/30 and possibly get the same outcome.
MCV and SCV also outperformed during early 90s. Then, was that due to Kuwait war?

By the way, this is great stuff. Of course, there will be another real international shock. And Large caps will get hit. Maybe EU will get more aggressive and stop large US tech companies extracting massive profits? Who knows?

These are all reasons for underweighting LC.
Actually mid-cap blend also outperformed for a few years in the mid-1990s. The issue is that both SCV and MCB crashed in the Asian financial crisis so that the total performance from 1982 to 1998 was basically on par, on a risk-adjusted basis, with total market. That kind of good period, bad period seasonality is what you would expect, evening out in the long-run so that SCV and MCB have slightly higher returns and higher volatility. This aligns with portfolio theory and makes SCV or MCB tilting a trade-off that could just as easily be replicated with reducing bond exposure in favor of more total market.

In the examples in OP, however, you see that MCB basically doubled the performance of total market from 1972 to 2019. That is eye-popping, it is much greater than expected by portfolio theory, and it could not be replicated by just holding more total market. And that is what I wanted to address. This eye-popping outperformance is entirely driven by 1972-1981 and 1998 to 2004. Basically, if you put money in SCV in 1972, you outperformed a lot over 10 years. This victory gap compounded at expected levels until 1999, when you got another 6 years of outperformance. From there the gap just compounded.

So the question is, will we see another one of these periods of crazy SC/MC outperformance, or might we even see a period of significant LC outperformance?
To address what you wrote earlier about the oil embargo and the dot com bubble being the reason for the midcap outperformance is something I am unsure of. Taking what you wrote about the PE dropping to 7 is significant, but I think the greater issue is that these two events are so different in nature, I don't see any reason for them to affect midcaps specifically. I think its fairer to claim that these two disparate events may affect their respective industries, but not the broader midcap market. For example, the dot com bubble impacting tech large caps, and the oil embargo impacting energy large caps.

But, a page of experience is worth a pound of logic. If it is the case (and it may well be), that two seemingly uncorrelated completely different events advantage midcap growth, then it sounds like the specific kind of historical event is inapposite. Midcaps survive better in times of distress in the economy, and remain competitive with total market at other times.

Personally, I'm 100% stocks, and within that 100% stocks I am 100% small and midcap diversified. I have no bond ratio to further reduce, and have zero direct large cap exposure, so I am indeed betting quite a bit on the idea that the market knows best--namely it knows something we do not in providing the conditions for allowing midcaps to grow faster than the broader market.

I've speculated at length on the reasons why. (Midcaps are more nimble than large caps to respond to market demands, large enough to weather economic turmoil, and best positioned to capitalize on the failings of their large cap equivalents) Suffice it to say for me 50 years is significant data. Regardless of my personal misgivings, an anomaly that persists for 50 years is robust enough to act upon. And I agree I believe it to be an anomaly.

The cause of the anomaly may be ambiguous or it may be precipitated by the events you specified. But if that is the case, I wouldn't say there is a such thing as a normal market. Whether its the anomaly of the 30 year bull market in bonds, the oil embargo, the dot com bubble, there's always some event thats going to occur that will advantage a particular tilt. We should expect the unexpected. And if Midcaps are robust enough to outgrow large caps in two events of a completely unrelated nature, I'm willing to make that bet.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by TomCat96 »

It's an oddity isn't it. Even looking at how few responses this thread gets, and how little dialogue there is indicates that Midcaps are indeed unloved.

Midcaps aren't unloved by just wall street, they're unloved by members of this site.
And why not?

It seems like there are few here with a 100% allocation in stocks. It's not a particularly popular position for good reason.
Even if midcaps do outperform to some degree, why capture the additional outperformance by moving to midcaps when one can simply do so by reducing their bond allocation. Certainly if I were 60/40. 70/30/, 80/20, I wouldn't change my stock allocation from total market to something else. I too would start by reduce my bond allocation.

So I think it's evident here even on this board that there is no particular or unusual market demand for midcaps in spite of their outperformance. Who in particular needs it? Who in particular wants it? Even with all the data It's certainly riskier and less diversified than a total market allocation.

Unless one is in a position like myself being 100 stocks already, there are less risky ways of achieving the same ends.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Portfolio7 »

I am a fan of mid-cap funds. I have about 30% of my portfolio in Midcap or Midcap-leaning funds, (LC/SC/REITs/Stable Value Fund make up the rest. I don't try to classify REITs by cap size.) I've had up to 40% Midcap in the past.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by fennewaldaj »

TomCat96 wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 8:31 pm It's an oddity isn't it. Even looking at how few responses this thread gets, and how little dialogue there is indicates that Midcaps are indeed unloved.
I am a factor tilter with a dedicated mid cap allocation. I found the mid cap anomaly compelling in addition to the small cap so i have both small and mid cap blend and value. Basically I end up being ~1/3 large, mid, small with a value tilt at all capitalization levels. But I get why factor tilters ignore it as having 6 funds (LB, LV, MB, MV, SB, SV) instead of 2 (LB, SV) can seem excessive
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by pdavi21 »

The real question is why weren't they recommended 50 years ago?

EDIT: Or 19 years ago?
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by LiveSimple »

Suggest some good mid cap funds or ETF for taxable account.
Invest when you have the money, sell when you need the money, for real life expenses...
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by fennewaldaj »

LiveSimple wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 3:04 am Suggest some good mid cap funds or ETF for taxable account.
VO (Vangaurd mid cap), or IJH (Ishares S+P 400) are both good options. VO actually covers much larger mid caps than IJH (there is little overlap between them). VB (Vanguard small cap) is a nice fund that gives you small caps plus small mid caps (per morningstar definition it actually has more mid caps than small caps). All these funds are tax efficient.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by vineviz »

LiveSimple wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 3:04 am Suggest some good mid cap funds or ETF for taxable account.
Not a classic mid-cap fund, but Vanguard U.S. Multifactor ETF (VFMF) is an interesting choice.

It invests roughly 1/3 each in large-cap, mid-cap, and small-cap. It's got a bit of a value bent, so you'd have to be okay with that.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by JoMoney »

I made another chart to highlight my point above, that there are a lot of different definitions of "Mid-Caps" and at times there has been quite a bit of variability between them.

[Morningstar Chart Link]
Image
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by petulant »

TomCat96 wrote: Sun May 19, 2019 8:31 pm It's an oddity isn't it. Even looking at how few responses this thread gets, and how little dialogue there is indicates that Midcaps are indeed unloved.

Midcaps aren't unloved by just wall street, they're unloved by members of this site.
And why not?

It seems like there are few here with a 100% allocation in stocks. It's not a particularly popular position for good reason.
Even if midcaps do outperform to some degree, why capture the additional outperformance by moving to midcaps when one can simply do so by reducing their bond allocation. Certainly if I were 60/40. 70/30/, 80/20, I wouldn't change my stock allocation from total market to something else. I too would start by reduce my bond allocation.

So I think it's evident here even on this board that there is no particular or unusual market demand for midcaps in spite of their outperformance. Who in particular needs it? Who in particular wants it? Even with all the data It's certainly riskier and less diversified than a total market allocation.

Unless one is in a position like myself being 100 stocks already, there are less risky ways of achieving the same ends.
Honestly I see the MC/SC issue as a continuum of the same phenomenon. I would probably want to hold both, possibly even in the same fund, by using Vanguard's small-cap fund (the CRSP index has a lot of mid-caps) or even just an extended market fund. I think there's also a State Street ETF that includes the S&P 400 and 600 as a "1000" index that I would look closely at. Right now though I am mostly accumulating in my work plan's Vanguard target date fund. The only small-cap index is a Russell 2000 one that I don't want to use. Once I have more money to worry about and I can move outside my work plan, I will probably look more closely at a tilt.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Beliavsky »

There are "total market" funds that large, mid, and small caps. What mutual funds or ETFs are recommended to track large caps + mid caps together? An advantage of such a fund over owning a large cap fund and a mid cap fund separately is reduced trading (and thus transaction costs) by the fund, since trades are not necessary when a stock moves across the mid-cap/large-cap border.
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Mel Lindauer
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Mel Lindauer »

pdavi21 wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 12:27 am The real question is why weren't they recommended 50 years ago?

EDIT: Or 19 years ago?
Actually, I first made the case for mid-caps back in 2000 in a discussion of slice-and-dice with Larry Swedroe on the old Morningstar Vanguard Diehards forum.

Since I was apparently the lone voice recommending mid-caps over the years, they became know as Mel's Unloved Mid-Caps.
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by Dave55 »

Mel Lindauer wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 1:09 pm
pdavi21 wrote: Mon May 20, 2019 12:27 am The real question is why weren't they recommended 50 years ago?

EDIT: Or 19 years ago?
Actually, I first made the case for mid-caps back in 2000 in a discussion of slice-and-dice with Larry Swedroe on the old Morningstar Vanguard Diehards forum.

Since I was apparently the lone voice recommending mid-caps over the years, they became know as Mel's Unloved Mid-Caps.
Mel which fund(s) or ETF(s) do you prefer to use for allocating to mid caps?

Thanks

Dave
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Re: Mid Caps have outperformed Large & Small for the past 50 years. Yet I see very little recommendation for them. Why?

Post by whodidntante »

I thought the size factor was dead? :twisted:
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