Free dinner from an attorney

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FBN2014
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Free dinner from an attorney

Post by FBN2014 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:58 am

So last night I ate a free steak dinner sponsored by a local attorney who had a financial planner as his guest speaker. The CFP has 8 proprietary portfolios that they use to "try" to beat their benchmarks. The fee is only 1.75% of AUM! I almost choked on my steak. As I was leaving, one of the speakers assistant CFPs tried to have me sign up for a free consultation. I told him I would not be a good client since I am a Boglehead. He looked at me funny and asked what is a Boglehead. When I responded that is a disciple of John Bogle he didn't know who John Bogle was. Amazing!
"October is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May March, June, December, August and February." - M. Twain

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djpeteski
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by djpeteski » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:05 am

Who? What is his Instagram? :P :P :P

gold99xx
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by gold99xx » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:08 am

FREE IS THE MOST EXPENSIVE

:sharebeer :moneybag :moneybag :oops:

Rus In Urbe
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by Rus In Urbe » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:09 am

LOL :D

I hope the steak was good, at least!

These kinds of "free" dinners (to sell investments and time-shares and swamp-properties) can be amusing.

But the only thing you spend is your time---- :(
I'd like to live as a poor man with lots of money. ~Pablo Picasso

SGM
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by SGM » Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:11 am

We are friends with some FPs at a local bank. They don't manage any of our money. They recently learned about low cost investing at Vanguard. I also mentioned Bogleheads to a clerk and one of the managers stuck his head out of his office and gave us a thumbs up.

We had Thanksgiving dinner with another family and one son was doing quant work for active fund managers for a brokerage house, The firm makes purchases based on his research. The son said I invest my own money in low cost index funds. He doesn't tell management where he invests his own money.

tealeaves
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by tealeaves » Wed Mar 27, 2019 11:28 am

I got a free dinner from attorney about 7 years ago. He put together a revocable trust for me a week later that in retrospect I do not believe I need. I now consider these free dinners too expensive.

garlandwhizzer
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by garlandwhizzer » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:33 pm

Beware of attorneys and/or financial professionals bearing gifts.

Garland Whizzer

jbmitt
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by jbmitt » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:42 pm

SGM wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:11 am
We are friends with some FPs at a local bank. They don't manage any of our money. They recently learned about low cost investing at Vanguard. I also mentioned Bogleheads to a clerk and one of the managers stuck his head out of his office and gave us a thumbs up.

We had Thanksgiving dinner with another family and one son was doing quant work for active fund managers for a brokerage house, The firm makes purchases based on his research. The son said I invest my own money in low cost index funds. He doesn't tell management where he invests his own money.
Thats interesting because many times they are required to hold their investments at particular places so an employer or a neutral party can monitor their activity as to not benefit from inside information.

Fallible
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by Fallible » Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:47 pm

garlandwhizzer wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 1:33 pm
Beware of attorneys and/or financial professionals bearing gifts.

Garland Whizzer
Right. These "free" dinners are money-makers for them or they would not continue putting them on. The gifts they bear are for themselves.
John Bogle on his often bumpy road to low-cost indexing: "When a door closes, if you look long enough and hard enough, if you're strong enough, you'll find a window that opens."

TSR
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by TSR » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:05 pm

As a lawyer, I hate this. I would never lend my imprimatur to another non-law profession by "hosting" something as a gentle suggestion that my legal counsel was that they accept that person's services. Depending on the financial/business arrangement (and the state), this could easily be unethical. It's right there in the ABA Model Rules: "A lawyer shall not form a partnership with a nonlawyer if any of the activities of the partnership consist of the practice of law."

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/prof ... _a_lawyer/

To be clear, I don't have enough information to state that this is unethical or that it violates this rule (or others), but I have enough information to say that I hate it.

germark
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by germark » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:23 pm

TSR wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:05 pm
As a lawyer, I hate this. I would never lend my imprimatur to another non-law profession by "hosting" something as a gentle suggestion that my legal counsel was that they accept that person's services. Depending on the financial/business arrangement (and the state), this could easily be unethical. It's right there in the ABA Model Rules: "A lawyer shall not form a partnership with a nonlawyer if any of the activities of the partnership consist of the practice of law."

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/prof ... _a_lawyer/

To be clear, I don't have enough information to state that this is unethical or that it violates this rule (or others), but I have enough information to say that I hate it.
Thank you. I genuinely enjoy hearing lawyers say things like this.

PluckyDucky
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by PluckyDucky » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:29 pm

Wow, a financial planner who doesn't know who of one of the legends in the industry. :oops:

I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't know Jesse Livermore, but Bogle? Had he heard of Vanguard?

ohai
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by ohai » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:44 pm

Well, they need to charge you 1.75% to pay for all those steaks.

JustinR
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by JustinR » Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:46 pm

Where did you find this opportunity for a free steak dinner? An ad somewhere?

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dm200
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by dm200 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 3:57 pm

FBN2014 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 7:58 am
So last night I ate a free steak dinner sponsored by a local attorney who had a financial planner as his guest speaker. The CFP has 8 proprietary portfolios that they use to "try" to beat their benchmarks. The fee is only 1.75% of AUM! I almost choked on my steak. As I was leaving, one of the speakers assistant CFPs tried to have me sign up for a free consultation. I told him I would not be a good client since I am a Boglehead. He looked at me funny and asked what is a Boglehead. When I responded that is a disciple of John Bogle he didn't know who John Bogle was. Amazing!
I wonder if the guest financial planner is funding the dinners.

After the steak dinner, I might have responded that John Bogle was a noted vegetarian. :happy

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FBN2014
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by FBN2014 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:14 pm

TSR wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:05 pm
As a lawyer, I hate this. I would never lend my imprimatur to another non-law profession by "hosting" something as a gentle suggestion that my legal counsel was that they accept that person's services. Depending on the financial/business arrangement (and the state), this could easily be unethical. It's right there in the ABA Model Rules: "A lawyer shall not form a partnership with a nonlawyer if any of the activities of the partnership consist of the practice of law."

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/prof ... _a_lawyer/

To be clear, I don't have enough information to state that this is unethical or that it violates this rule (or others), but I have enough information to say that I hate it.
The attorney introduced the financial planner as someone he rcommends to his clients and she in turn said that she recommends the attorney to her clients for estate planning. I don't think the planner is practicing law but she did talk about estate planning in her presentation. I don't think talking about estate planning to her clients would be considered practicing law or would it?
"October is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May March, June, December, August and February." - M. Twain

Topic Author
FBN2014
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by FBN2014 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:14 pm

JustinR wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:46 pm
Where did you find this opportunity for a free steak dinner? An ad somewhere?
The attorney advertised the dinner on Facebook.
"October is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May March, June, December, August and February." - M. Twain

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FBN2014
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by FBN2014 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:16 pm

PluckyDucky wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:29 pm
Wow, a financial planner who doesn't know who of one of the legends in the industry. :oops:

I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't know Jesse Livermore, but Bogle? Had he heard of Vanguard?
He said that they use ETFs in their portfolios. :oops:
"October is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May March, June, December, August and February." - M. Twain

stoptothink
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by stoptothink » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:26 pm

PluckyDucky wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:29 pm
Wow, a financial planner who doesn't know who of one of the legends in the industry. :oops:

I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't know Jesse Livermore, but Bogle? Had he heard of Vanguard?
How many "financial planners" do you know? At least in my personal experience they've all heard of Vanguard, but very few could tell you who John Bogle was. My best friend, who was a FP (with a CFP) at Fidelity before heading off to Wharton for his MBA had no clue who John Bogle was before I talked to him about it.

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tennisplyr
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by tennisplyr » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:28 pm

I hope you got creamed spinach, steak fries and a glass of wine 😋
Those who move forward with a happy spirit will find that things always work out.

bryanm
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by bryanm » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:32 pm

TSR wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:05 pm
As a lawyer, I hate this. I would never lend my imprimatur to another non-law profession by "hosting" something as a gentle suggestion that my legal counsel was that they accept that person's services. Depending on the financial/business arrangement (and the state), this could easily be unethical. It's right there in the ABA Model Rules: "A lawyer shall not form a partnership with a nonlawyer if any of the activities of the partnership consist of the practice of law."

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/prof ... _a_lawyer/

To be clear, I don't have enough information to state that this is unethical or that it violates this rule (or others), but I have enough information to say that I hate it.
+1

PluckyDucky
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by PluckyDucky » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:37 pm

stoptothink wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:26 pm
PluckyDucky wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:29 pm
Wow, a financial planner who doesn't know who of one of the legends in the industry. :oops:

I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't know Jesse Livermore, but Bogle? Had he heard of Vanguard?
How many "financial planners" do you know? At least in my personal experience they've all heard of Vanguard, but very few could tell you who John Bogle was. My best friend, who was a FP (with a CFP) at Fidelity before heading off to Wharton for his MBA had no clue who John Bogle was before I talked to him about it.
Proof positive that even most "experts" only see what they want to see and don't put in the effort to see "everything."

Jim180
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by Jim180 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:45 pm

Free is only free if you end up saying "No".

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FBN2014
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by FBN2014 » Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:51 pm

How does a financial planner who advertises that he/she is a fiduciary use high expense mutual funds which I assume they use since they don't even know who Bogle is. Surely low expense index funds and ETFs are in the best interests of their clients.
"October is one of the peculiarly dangerous months to speculate in stocks. The others are July, January, September, April, November, May March, June, December, August and February." - M. Twain

smby
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by smby » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:00 pm

Time is much more expensive than any free dinner.

Trader Joe
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by Trader Joe » Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:25 pm

smby wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 5:00 pm
Time is much more expensive than any free dinner.
Exactly! Unless you are really in need of a meal, in which case a local Soup Kitchen would be the recommended choice.

bsteiner
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by bsteiner » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:08 pm

If you go to the free dinner seminar and you're the one who buys the annuity, the living trust, the timeshare, or the bridge, not only did you pay for your free dinner, but you paid for the free dinners for everyone else in the room.

xivvix
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by xivvix » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:17 pm

gold99xx wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 8:08 am
FREE IS THE MOST EXPENSIVE

:sharebeer :moneybag :moneybag :oops:
Felt the same way hearing about all these big wealth management firms touting "free of charge" access to their in-house lawyers, CPAs and estate planners. Of course all baked into their % AUM fee premium, at much higher effective cost. Would rather go pay $300-$500/hour for solid professionals on my own dime and hold them accountable.

Mingus
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by Mingus » Wed Mar 27, 2019 10:36 pm

Why?

I'd rather spend the money on a nice steak house or make some steak at home than suffer through a con artist's sales presentation.

TSR
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by TSR » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:53 am

FBN2014 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:14 pm
TSR wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:05 pm
As a lawyer, I hate this. I would never lend my imprimatur to another non-law profession by "hosting" something as a gentle suggestion that my legal counsel was that they accept that person's services. Depending on the financial/business arrangement (and the state), this could easily be unethical. It's right there in the ABA Model Rules: "A lawyer shall not form a partnership with a nonlawyer if any of the activities of the partnership consist of the practice of law."

https://www.americanbar.org/groups/prof ... _a_lawyer/

To be clear, I don't have enough information to state that this is unethical or that it violates this rule (or others), but I have enough information to say that I hate it.
The attorney introduced the financial planner as someone he recommends to his clients and she in turn said that she recommends the attorney to her clients for estate planning. I don't think the planner is practicing law but she did talk about estate planning in her presentation. I don't think talking about estate planning to her clients would be considered practicing law or would it?
I doubt it's really practicing law -- the lawyer is likely giving general, practical advice about estate planning, not focused, one-on-one advice. It's also probably not a "partnership," given that there may only be an informal agreement with regard to any mutual referrals and/or (ugh) referral fees. But from a business standpoint even the act of buying this dinner seems like a tacit acknowledgement of all the back-scratching going on, which is particularly problematic BETWEEN professions.

I'll just say that this prohibition against lawyers partnering with other professionals is one of the older and stranger of the ethical rules, and it'd be interesting to see it challenged in court (which happens from time to time with the ethical rules -- notably a successful First Amendment challenge against earlier, more restrictive rules against advertising). But this sort of stuff really creates a lot of risks with respect to loyalty and the fiduciary nature of the attorney/client relationship. "Why is my lawyer advising this particular financial advisor? Oh, because she gets something out of it?" That sort of dual-loyalty is not what being a lawyer is supposed to be about. Again, it's likely not unethical because I doubt the attorney is really saying "I advise you to do this," but it would make me uncomfortable.

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dm200
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by dm200 » Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:56 am

TSR wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:53 am
FBN2014 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:14 pm
TSR wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:05 pm
As a lawyer, I hate this. I would never lend my imprimatur to another non-law profession by "hosting" something as a gentle suggestion that my legal counsel was that they accept that person's services. Depending on the financial/business arrangement (and the state), this could easily be unethical. It's right there in the ABA Model Rules: "A lawyer shall not form a partnership with a nonlawyer if any of the activities of the partnership consist of the practice of law."
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/prof ... _a_lawyer/
To be clear, I don't have enough information to state that this is unethical or that it violates this rule (or others), but I have enough information to say that I hate it.
The attorney introduced the financial planner as someone he recommends to his clients and she in turn said that she recommends the attorney to her clients for estate planning. I don't think the planner is practicing law but she did talk about estate planning in her presentation. I don't think talking about estate planning to her clients would be considered practicing law or would it?
I doubt it's really practicing law -- the lawyer is likely giving general, practical advice about estate planning, not focused, one-on-one advice. It's also probably not a "partnership," given that there may only be an informal agreement with regard to any mutual referrals and/or (ugh) referral fees. But from a business standpoint even the act of buying this dinner seems like a tacit acknowledgement of all the back-scratching going on, which is particularly problematic BETWEEN professions.
I'll just say that this prohibition against lawyers partnering with other professionals is one of the older and stranger of the ethical rules, and it'd be interesting to see it challenged in court (which happens from time to time with the ethical rules -- notably a successful First Amendment challenge against earlier, more restrictive rules against advertising). But this sort of stuff really creates a lot of risks with respect to loyalty and the fiduciary nature of the attorney/client relationship. "Why is my lawyer advising this particular financial advisor? Oh, because she gets something out of it?" That sort of dual-loyalty is not what being a lawyer is supposed to be about. Again, it's likely not unethical because I doubt the attorney is really saying "I advise you to do this," but it would make me uncomfortable.
Not that long ago, I believe it was prohibited for attorneys to actually "advertise" their services. Not sure what changed, or why or when.

TSR
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by TSR » Thu Mar 28, 2019 10:01 am

dm200 wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:56 am
TSR wrote:
Thu Mar 28, 2019 9:53 am
FBN2014 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:14 pm
TSR wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 2:05 pm
As a lawyer, I hate this. I would never lend my imprimatur to another non-law profession by "hosting" something as a gentle suggestion that my legal counsel was that they accept that person's services. Depending on the financial/business arrangement (and the state), this could easily be unethical. It's right there in the ABA Model Rules: "A lawyer shall not form a partnership with a nonlawyer if any of the activities of the partnership consist of the practice of law."
https://www.americanbar.org/groups/prof ... _a_lawyer/
To be clear, I don't have enough information to state that this is unethical or that it violates this rule (or others), but I have enough information to say that I hate it.
The attorney introduced the financial planner as someone he recommends to his clients and she in turn said that she recommends the attorney to her clients for estate planning. I don't think the planner is practicing law but she did talk about estate planning in her presentation. I don't think talking about estate planning to her clients would be considered practicing law or would it?
I doubt it's really practicing law -- the lawyer is likely giving general, practical advice about estate planning, not focused, one-on-one advice. It's also probably not a "partnership," given that there may only be an informal agreement with regard to any mutual referrals and/or (ugh) referral fees. But from a business standpoint even the act of buying this dinner seems like a tacit acknowledgement of all the back-scratching going on, which is particularly problematic BETWEEN professions.
I'll just say that this prohibition against lawyers partnering with other professionals is one of the older and stranger of the ethical rules, and it'd be interesting to see it challenged in court (which happens from time to time with the ethical rules -- notably a successful First Amendment challenge against earlier, more restrictive rules against advertising). But this sort of stuff really creates a lot of risks with respect to loyalty and the fiduciary nature of the attorney/client relationship. "Why is my lawyer advising this particular financial advisor? Oh, because she gets something out of it?" That sort of dual-loyalty is not what being a lawyer is supposed to be about. Again, it's likely not unethical because I doubt the attorney is really saying "I advise you to do this," but it would make me uncomfortable.
Not that long ago, I believe it was prohibited for attorneys to actually "advertise" their services. Not sure what changed, or why or when.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bates_v._ ... of_Arizona

I lot of reasonable arguments on all sides in this case.

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Clever_Username
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Re: Free dinner from an attorney

Post by Clever_Username » Thu Mar 28, 2019 3:34 pm

Jim180 wrote:
Wed Mar 27, 2019 4:45 pm
Free is only free if you end up saying "No".
Yup. I worry if I went to one of these I'd end up either saying yes or something that could be construed as yes.
"What was true then is true now. Have a plan. Stick to it." -- XXXX, _Layer Cake_ | | I survived my first downturn and all I got was this signature line.

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