Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

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gjlynch17
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by gjlynch17 »

MisterMister wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:03 am
stan1 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:52 am Alarms going off at Fidelity: Vanguard is sending over some high cost, low revenue customers. &^*&%^*&*^!! they got us again.
That's funny! I bet Fidelity does indeed loathe Vanguard!
To the contrary, I have no doubt that Fidelity is excited about this move by Vanguard. More money will be coming into their platform (especially their higher cost money market funds) with minimal incremental expense. I am only a sample of one, but at my average annual balance in Fidelity's lowest cost investor money market fund (FZDXX) (equivalent to Vanguard Prime Money Market account), they will be making $450 annually on that alone. The costs of servicing my cash management account has to be a fraction of that and I would be one of the lower margin customers at Fidelity because I intend to keep my cash management account at $0 and use overdraft from FZDXX. There may be other customers who stay or keep balances in lower yielding options (cash management or higher cost money market funds).

That does not include the IRA rollovers that will be coming over and new table investments make from the brokerage account that were at or being invested at Vanguard. Fidelity may not make much on those as they are primarily going into their index funds or iShares but it is incremental revenue nonetheless at a high gross margin. I am keeping taxable assets at Vanguard in part because of the trapped unrealized gain and in part because of Vanguard's superior muni fund options (especially compared to Fidelity or ETF equivalents). However, there is not doubt that over the next decade Fidelity is likely to make thousands of dollars (if not more) off of me at Vanguard's expense.
aalexorr
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by aalexorr »

I agree. Very funny.

I am upset about this change, especially because I have been telling them for years that its benefits are under-promoted. A friend who worked fairly high up there for years never knew about its features. When I told him that I have a checking account at Vanguard with billpay and MM rates on all my money there, he seemed totally shocked.

The discontinuation notice mentioned a survey; no one asked me for my opinion.

In the end, I think it is simply a question of costs to manage the program (regulatory and other) versus the number of Vanguard clients that use it. The solution should have been to promote it and improve it. I am seriously considering moving everything to Fidelity. It would be a pain, but they seem more customer-focused and innovative. Everyone is catching up or beating Vanguard on expense ratios...

Sad to leave if that is what we decide to do.
edge
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by edge »

The fidelity cma has both overdraft and auto transfer functionality from the MMF. It’s very convenient.
essbeer
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by essbeer »

Snapper wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:26 am My Flagship rep called with a two pronged attack. Advantage is dead and I should sign up for PAS. I told him this seemed to be going a cross purposes as Vanguard was eliminating the possibility of being a one stop solution, then pitching PAS as a one stop solution. That idea seemed to surprise him.

I did get the clear impression there would be no new Advantage account. Considering how often I hear from him about PAS maybe they will offer one for PAS clients only!
This is actually exactly what I was thinking the reason might be. They seem to be pitching cash management (especially the ability to liquidate position on an as needed basis) as a big of the value proposition for PAS. When I was reading the PAS info they gave me I kept thinking how much it sounded like a more expensive version of an Advantage account.
Gadget
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by Gadget »

Artsdoctor wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:41 am
zrail wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:31 am A Fidelity CMA is an ordinary brokerage account with an FDIC-insured core position and debit card refunds. That’s it.

Fidelity will automatically sell money market positions within a brokerage account (any brokerage account) to satisfy purchases or withdrawals. This means that you can purchase a money market fund within your CMA, keep nothing i the FDIC core position, and have withdrawals automatically come out of that money market fund.
I think this is where I was tripped up by the Fidelity representative, and probably where the miscommunication is coming from above. I was told that the CMA sweep account could be funded by your co-existing higher-yielding money market account but that they discouraged this on a routine basis. The reason why is that it required a manually override on their end. Perhaps this was over-emphasized by the representative.
I think your Fidelity rep is confused. With free and instant overdraft protection you can keep $0 in CMA. Then use a brokerage account for overdraft protection with a core fund of SPAXX. There is no need to ever transfer anything to the CMA account manually. Everything can be automatic.

Alternatively, if you don't care about free ATM withdrawls worldwide (I do), you can do all of this directly from a Fidelity brokerage account and avoid the CMA account entirely.
sd55
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by sd55 »

I just moved from Ally to Fidelity for cash management. Ally is excellent, but I got tired of dealing with the withdrawal limits on savings accounts. Here are a few things I learned:

1) You can open a separate brokerage account just for cash management that is not connected to your main account. I did this because I allow external ACH pulls from my cash management account (to pay taxes, credit cards...). I didn't want my margin facility and bulk of my assets in an account with this feature, as I've experienced erroneous transfers in the past.

2) You have 2 options for cash management: the Fidelity CMA or a regular brokerage account with checkwriting, billpay and debit card.
  • The CMA rebates ATM fees, but the brokerage account does as well if you have more than $250K with Fidelity.
  • With the brokerage account, you hold and withdraw cash from one of the core money market options which pay about 2.05%. With the CMA, you withdraw from a bank account that pays 0.4%. However, you can keep a zero balance in the bank account and Fidelity will automatically debit your money market account, so you can hold your cash in a MM yielding 2.25%
  • With the brokerage account, your deposits go to the core account that yields 2.05%. With the CMA, your deposits go to the 0.4% bank account and you need to manually move them to the money market account.
They're pretty close. You just need to decide if you're willing to deal with the hassle of manually moving deposits to get the extra 0.2%.

3) One thing to be aware of is that Fidelity holds check deposits and ACH transfers initiated from Fidelity for a long time. While they can be invested immediately, they can't be withdrawn for about a week. However, if you initiate the ACH from the other bank (eg direct deposit), they appear to be available for withdrawal immediately.
stan1
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by stan1 »

Snapper wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:26 am My Flagship rep called with a two pronged attack. Advantage is dead and I should sign up for PAS. I told him this seemed to be going a cross purposes as Vanguard was eliminating the possibility of being a one stop solution, then pitching PAS as a one stop solution. That idea seemed to surprise him.
Well that's pretty insulting. Take one free service away and sign up for something different that costs 30 basis points per year? Seems like they have some low cost marketing and public relations people, too, or else they've gone completely post-truth and are hoping their customers will believe whatever they say because they are Vanguard?
essbeer
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by essbeer »

stan1 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 pm
Snapper wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:26 am My Flagship rep called with a two pronged attack. Advantage is dead and I should sign up for PAS. I told him this seemed to be going a cross purposes as Vanguard was eliminating the possibility of being a one stop solution, then pitching PAS as a one stop solution. That idea seemed to surprise him.
Well that's pretty insulting. Take one free service away and sign up for something different that costs 30 basis points per year? Seems like they have some low cost marketing and public relations people, too, or else they've gone completely post-truth and are hoping their customers will believe whatever they say because they are Vanguard?
Though this has me thinking: What if I opened up an account with the 50k minimum for PAS just for the purpose of cash management and left the rest of my portfolio out? The 30 basis points per year would not be a big deal because I'd be able to invest in any Vanguard fund, I'd likely make up the difference.
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Artsdoctor
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by Artsdoctor »

Gadget wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:44 am
Artsdoctor wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:41 am
zrail wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:31 am A Fidelity CMA is an ordinary brokerage account with an FDIC-insured core position and debit card refunds. That’s it.

Fidelity will automatically sell money market positions within a brokerage account (any brokerage account) to satisfy purchases or withdrawals. This means that you can purchase a money market fund within your CMA, keep nothing i the FDIC core position, and have withdrawals automatically come out of that money market fund.
I think this is where I was tripped up by the Fidelity representative, and probably where the miscommunication is coming from above. I was told that the CMA sweep account could be funded by your co-existing higher-yielding money market account but that they discouraged this on a routine basis. The reason why is that it required a manually override on their end. Perhaps this was over-emphasized by the representative.
I think your Fidelity rep is confused. With free and instant overdraft protection you can keep $0 in CMA. Then use a brokerage account for overdraft protection with a core fund of SPAXX. There is no need to ever transfer anything to the CMA account manually. Everything can be automatic.

Alternatively, if you don't care about free ATM withdrawls worldwide (I do), you can do all of this directly from a Fidelity brokerage account and avoid the CMA account entirely.
Interesting. Thank you very much for the explanation. This helps a great deal.

Have you used the debit card internationally? The CMA description suggests that use of the ATM abroad would result in fees although it wasn't clear if this was just a 1% foreign exchange fee (which is described) or the foreign exchange fee plus the other bank's fee. But at any rate, my Wells Fargo account doesn't impose the 1% foreign fee at baseline so it's a moot point.
stan1
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by stan1 »

gjlynch17 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:06 am
To the contrary, I have no doubt that Fidelity is excited about this move by Vanguard. More money will be coming into their platform (especially their higher cost money market funds) with minimal incremental expense. I am only a sample of one, but at my average annual balance in Fidelity's lowest cost investor money market fund (FZDXX) (equivalent to Vanguard Prime Money Market account), they will be making $450 annually on that alone. The costs of servicing my cash management account has to be a fraction of that and I would be one of the lower margin customers at Fidelity because I intend to keep my cash management account at $0 and use overdraft from FZDXX. There may be other customers who stay or keep balances in lower yielding options (cash management or higher cost money market funds).
The expense ratio on FZDXX is 0.37% yielding 2.38% (with a $100K minimum balance) and Prime MMF is 0.16% yielding 2.46%, so yes Fidelity has more opportunity to build some profit in. In essence the free CMA is costing you 8 basis points per year ($80 per $100K invested) based on the difference in yield.

Agree Fidelity would rather have you as a customer than someone who puts most of their money into a ZERO fund, especially if you don't call very often for customer service from a person.
hotpancakes
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by hotpancakes »

Artsdoctor wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:45 pm
Gadget wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:44 am
Artsdoctor wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:41 am
zrail wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:31 am A Fidelity CMA is an ordinary brokerage account with an FDIC-insured core position and debit card refunds. That’s it.

Fidelity will automatically sell money market positions within a brokerage account (any brokerage account) to satisfy purchases or withdrawals. This means that you can purchase a money market fund within your CMA, keep nothing i the FDIC core position, and have withdrawals automatically come out of that money market fund.
I think this is where I was tripped up by the Fidelity representative, and probably where the miscommunication is coming from above. I was told that the CMA sweep account could be funded by your co-existing higher-yielding money market account but that they discouraged this on a routine basis. The reason why is that it required a manually override on their end. Perhaps this was over-emphasized by the representative.
I think your Fidelity rep is confused. With free and instant overdraft protection you can keep $0 in CMA. Then use a brokerage account for overdraft protection with a core fund of SPAXX. There is no need to ever transfer anything to the CMA account manually. Everything can be automatic.

Alternatively, if you don't care about free ATM withdrawls worldwide (I do), you can do all of this directly from a Fidelity brokerage account and avoid the CMA account entirely.
Interesting. Thank you very much for the explanation. This helps a great deal.

Have you used the debit card internationally? The CMA description suggests that use of the ATM abroad would result in fees although it wasn't clear if this was just a 1% foreign exchange fee (which is described) or the foreign exchange fee plus the other bank's fee. But at any rate, my Wells Fargo account doesn't impose the 1% foreign fee at baseline so it's a moot point.
From what I understand, foreign ATM transactions don't incur a foreign transaction fee of any sort as they're not considered "purchases." Any other non-ATM use would be grounds for the 1% fee. I'm traveling internationally in the next two weeks or so; just as a sanity check, I'm planning to withdraw the same amount of cash at the same ATM using both a Schwab and Fidelity debit card and then check the amount of USD debited from my accounts. I'll report back with the results if you'd like.
drk
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by drk »

hotpancakes wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:26 pm
Artsdoctor wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:45 pm
Gadget wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 11:44 am
Artsdoctor wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:41 am
zrail wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:31 am A Fidelity CMA is an ordinary brokerage account with an FDIC-insured core position and debit card refunds. That’s it.

Fidelity will automatically sell money market positions within a brokerage account (any brokerage account) to satisfy purchases or withdrawals. This means that you can purchase a money market fund within your CMA, keep nothing i the FDIC core position, and have withdrawals automatically come out of that money market fund.
I think this is where I was tripped up by the Fidelity representative, and probably where the miscommunication is coming from above. I was told that the CMA sweep account could be funded by your co-existing higher-yielding money market account but that they discouraged this on a routine basis. The reason why is that it required a manually override on their end. Perhaps this was over-emphasized by the representative.
I think your Fidelity rep is confused. With free and instant overdraft protection you can keep $0 in CMA. Then use a brokerage account for overdraft protection with a core fund of SPAXX. There is no need to ever transfer anything to the CMA account manually. Everything can be automatic.

Alternatively, if you don't care about free ATM withdrawls worldwide (I do), you can do all of this directly from a Fidelity brokerage account and avoid the CMA account entirely.
Interesting. Thank you very much for the explanation. This helps a great deal.

Have you used the debit card internationally? The CMA description suggests that use of the ATM abroad would result in fees although it wasn't clear if this was just a 1% foreign exchange fee (which is described) or the foreign exchange fee plus the other bank's fee. But at any rate, my Wells Fargo account doesn't impose the 1% foreign fee at baseline so it's a moot point.
From what I understand, foreign ATM transactions don't incur a foreign transaction fee of any sort as they're not considered "purchases." Any other non-ATM use would be grounds for the 1% fee. I'm traveling internationally in the next two weeks or so; just as a sanity check, I'm planning to withdraw the same amount of cash at the same ATM using both a Schwab and Fidelity debit card and then check the amount of USD debited from my accounts. I'll report back with the results if you'd like.
In the "Fidelity as a one-stop shop" thread, I asked for real-life confirmation, and a couple of people reported that ATM usage is not subject to the 1% foreign exchange fee (example post link). It works exactly like Schwab's, except that the fee refunds happen at EOD rather than EOM.
nix4me
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by nix4me »

whodidntante wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:42 am This is no problem. Simply call Vanguard customer service and inform them that you own the company and they are mistaken, or whatever supposed customer advantages the nonprofit structure has.
Hahahahahaha - great post!
PatrickA5
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by PatrickA5 »

essbeer wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:21 pm
stan1 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 pm
Snapper wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:26 am My Flagship rep called with a two pronged attack. Advantage is dead and I should sign up for PAS. I told him this seemed to be going a cross purposes as Vanguard was eliminating the possibility of being a one stop solution, then pitching PAS as a one stop solution. That idea seemed to surprise him.
Well that's pretty insulting. Take one free service away and sign up for something different that costs 30 basis points per year? Seems like they have some low cost marketing and public relations people, too, or else they've gone completely post-truth and are hoping their customers will believe whatever they say because they are Vanguard?
Though this has me thinking: What if I opened up an account with the 50k minimum for PAS just for the purpose of cash management and left the rest of my portfolio out? The 30 basis points per year would not be a big deal because I'd be able to invest in any Vanguard fund, I'd likely make up the difference.
I don't thing having PAS is going to give you a cash management account. Vanguards CMA (Advantage) is going away for everybody. I told my Flagship Rep just to go ahead and close my Advantage account now. I'm going to add check writing to my Prime Money Market fund - which will give me everything that I was using the Advantage account for before (since I didn't use ATM or bill paying anyway).
essbeer
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by essbeer »

PatrickA5 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 1:35 pm
essbeer wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:21 pm
stan1 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:14 pm
Snapper wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 10:26 am My Flagship rep called with a two pronged attack. Advantage is dead and I should sign up for PAS. I told him this seemed to be going a cross purposes as Vanguard was eliminating the possibility of being a one stop solution, then pitching PAS as a one stop solution. That idea seemed to surprise him.
Well that's pretty insulting. Take one free service away and sign up for something different that costs 30 basis points per year? Seems like they have some low cost marketing and public relations people, too, or else they've gone completely post-truth and are hoping their customers will believe whatever they say because they are Vanguard?
Though this has me thinking: What if I opened up an account with the 50k minimum for PAS just for the purpose of cash management and left the rest of my portfolio out? The 30 basis points per year would not be a big deal because I'd be able to invest in any Vanguard fund, I'd likely make up the difference.
I don't thing having PAS is going to give you a cash management account. Vanguards CMA (Advantage) is going away for everybody. I told my Flagship Rep just to go ahead and close my Advantage account now. I'm going to add check writing to my Prime Money Market fund - which will give me everything that I was using the Advantage account for before (since I didn't use ATM or bill paying anyway).
I remember reading in the PAS info that you could set a minimum cash level for the account and have your assets sold automatically in an order established by you when the cash level falls below the minimum.
Lyrrad
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by Lyrrad »

sd55 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:10 pm 3) One thing to be aware of is that Fidelity holds check deposits and ACH transfers initiated from Fidelity for a long time. While they can be invested immediately, they can't be withdrawn for about a week. However, if you initiate the ACH from the other bank (eg direct deposit), they appear to be available for withdrawal immediately.
For some reason, holds in my CMA seem to be less than those on a brokerage account. Every ACH pull into the brokerage account is held for about a week in the brokerage account, but one I did one into the Cash Management account was available for withdrawal a day later. It's possible that hold periods on these accounts are reduced over time or were increased for newer accounts. I've had the CMA for 4 years, but only opened the brokerage account a few months ago.
stan1 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:46 pm The expense ratio on FZDXX is 0.37% yielding 2.38% (with a $100K minimum balance) and Prime MMF is 0.16% yielding 2.46%, so yes Fidelity has more opportunity to build some profit in. In essence the free CMA is costing you 8 basis points per year ($80 per $100K invested) based on the difference in yield.
There seems to be a rebate currently in effect for FZDXX , so the actual expense ratio as of 2018/10/31 was 0.30, though the rebate is reflected in the yield.

Personally, I plan to keep a few months of expected expenses in their money market fund, and put my extra savings into a T-Bill ladder.
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William4u
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts]

Post by William4u »

Gadget wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 8:19 am
William4u wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:52 am
Gadget wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:52 pm
Artsdoctor wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2019 4:34 pm So it sounds like using a Fidelity brokerage account will accomplish everything that the Vanguard Advantage did. If you want an ATM card, then you can go with the Cash Management Account. Some people might like to have a checking account separate from an investment account so in theory, the CMA might be attractive to them although you could easily just open up a separate brokerage account.

Fidelity told me that they would not encourage having debits to a sweep account that would need to be manually funded from another (higher yielding) money market fund. They would DO it (think of it as overdraft protection) but if it's a habitual problem, you'll probably hear about it.

So to me, the CMA gives you virtually no interest whereas the brokerage account can have a core fund as the "sweep" account which would yield > 2%. Something like SPAXX at Fidelity will yield about 2.05% compared to the Federal Money Market settlement fund at Vanguard yielding about 2.35%. Both have greater than 50% treasuries so you can get a bit of a break on your California tax return if that's applicable to you.

So unless you really want a debit card, using the brokerage account would be the clear winner, especially if you're moving a lot of money in and out of the account for banking purposes.
A lot of people, myself included keep 0 dollars in the CMA account. All money goes into Brokerage account that is used as overdraft protection for the CMA account. It has a better core sweep fund, (SPAXX) even though I buy FZDXX when I remember.

I can confirm that the ATM works from CMA even with 0 in the CMA. Overdraft works instantly.
This "auto-overdraft" (that can "overdraft" 1000x a month with no problems) is what I loved about the VanguardAdvantage account and Fidelity CMA. The Vanguard Federal MM fund was both a checking and MM account at the same time (so "auto-overdraft" from MM to checking is built in obviously). I could deposit, do billpay/autopay, and write checks from Vanguard Fed MM.

I also have the Fidelity CMA and it is like half a VanguardAdvantage account. Fidelity lets you essentially pay bills from your MM account (since it auto-sweeps without limits into your $0 CMA account to pay for ATM withdrawals, checks, billpay, etc.) but you need to remember to constantly go to Fidelity.com and transfer money into the MM from the CMA account when you have an check, ACH, or direct deposit go into the account (VanguardAdvantage avoided the latter disadvantage of a Fidelity CMA).

It looks like (from the little I've read) that the Schwab account is not as good as the Fidelity CMA on this.

I'm upset about what Vanguard is doing here. I'm very upset.

But at least Fidelity CMA is an adequate replacement that is much better than having a regular bank account (where I would need to keep a large amount in my checking and then constantly balance between checking and MM/Savings to cover bills/checks while also maximizing interest AND avoiding Regulation D problems with the 6 withdrawal monthly limit). Fidelity has a higher rate than any bank. But Fidelity has a lower interest rate than Vanguard MM Prime or MM Fed (and Fidelity MM Prime might run into troubles with the new Federal Rules on Prime MM Funds which the Fed MM fixes) and you can't deposit checks, ACH, and direct deposits straight into the Fidelity MM.

Basically all this means I will be moving a significant amount of money from Vanguard to Fidelity, and I will need to "tend" my CMA account much more per month than my VanguardAdvantage account, I will be getting a lower rate, and I will be buying more Fidelity Index Funds instead of Vanguard Index Funds.
Maybe I'm not understanding your concern, but I don't see how Fidelity CMA is different than Vanguard Advantage (other than lower rates). I direct deposit my paychecks into a Brokerage account I named "Savings". $0 gets deposited in the CMA account. Any deposits into "Savings" automatically go to the core fund SPAXX. All debits come from the CMA account which has no money in it, but autodraft protection to "Savings". If I want to log in to Fidelity, I can buy FZDXX instead of SPAXX in my "Savings" account. Most people probably buy SPRXX instead of FZDXX, but the point is that you don't HAVE to log in and purchase anything as long as you're fine with the SPAXX rate.

In other words, you can set it up where Fidelity CMA can be a no effort checking account with the SPAXX rate. Or with minimal effort, you can buy into FZDXX or SPRXX when you get direct deposits.
Can I deposit checks and ACH directly into the Fidelity MM fund too, or can I only direct deposit into it? So you essentially have two bank account numbers: the brokerage MM account which is a deposit-only account, and the CMA account that is a pay-out-only account (whose overdraft account is the brokerage MM account). Can you get checks for both accounts?

Right now I have a Fidelity CMA account, and within that CMA account I hold SPRXX (which is my overdraft for the CMA FDIC account that gets no interest but gets ATM reimbursement). Can I now add a separate brokerage account that acts as a further overdraft protection, so it takes from SPRXX fund in the CMA account first and then overdrafts from the MM in the separate brokerage account SPAXX MM core sweep fund second? Or do I need to specify one overdraft account, which can be a MM fund either within the CMA brokerage account or within a separate brokerage account?

It sounds like the best option for me is to (A) open a new Fidelity brokerage account (with the default and required SPAXX MM fund as the core sweep) and have all my ACH, checks, and direct deposits go there, and (B) have all my check-writing, billpay, and autodrafts for my credit cards debit from my CMA FDIC checking account that uses the other brokerage account's SPAXX MM fund as an auto-overdraft.
Gadget
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts]

Post by Gadget »

William4u wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 5:34 pm Can I deposit checks and ACH directly into the Fidelity MM fund too, or can I only direct deposit into it? So you essentially have two bank account numbers: the brokerage MM account which is a deposit-only account, and the CMA account that is a pay-out-only account (whose overdraft account is the brokerage MM account). Can you get checks for both accounts?
Yes. You can deposit checks and ACH directly into the brokerage account with the SPAXX core fund. Both the CMA and Brokerage account have routing/account numbers and both can write checks.

Right now I have a Fidelity CMA account, and within that CMA account I hold SPRXX (which is my overdraft for the CMA FDIC account that gets no interest but gets ATM reimbursement). Can I now add a separate brokerage account that acts as a further overdraft protection, so it takes from SPRXX fund in the CMA account first and then overdrafts from the MM in the separate brokerage account SPAXX MM core sweep fund second? Or do I need to specify one overdraft account, which can be a MM fund either within the CMA brokerage account or within a separate brokerage account?
Yes. I added a second brokerage account that acts as overdraft to the CMA. Any money market fund in the brokerage account that acts as overdraft works to cover debits from the CMA. In fact, I never have money (aside from ATM reimbursements) in my CMA account.

It sounds like the best option for me is to (A) open a new Fidelity brokerage account (with the default and required SPAXX MM fund as the core sweep) and have all my ACH, checks, and direct deposits go there, and (B) have all my check-writing, billpay, and autodrafts for my credit cards debit from my CMA FDIC checking account that uses the other brokerage account's SPAXX MM fund as an auto-overdraft.
This is exactly what I do.
sarahjane
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Re: Discontinuing VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by sarahjane »

Dandy wrote: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:55 am Disappointed but can't say I'm shocked -- Vanguard not only didn't promote it it seemed to actively hide it. I established the Advantage Account many years ago but never transitioned to making it my workhorse checking account but was getting tempted as rates rose.

From the outside I think they are making a mistake long term. They have been great at gathering assets but this account was geared to keep assets by creating a substitute for most banking options and by creating a lot of inertia because of the work involved in setting up bill pay. Also, being a repository for RMDs to keep the dollars inhouse.

Of course, they would have had to spend some money bringing the Advantage Account up to date to compete with competitors and market it.

Do any of the VG taxable money markets (Federal, Prime or Treasury) have the ability to add checkwriting? I believe Prime used to offer it for checks over a certain amount e.g. $100? I like to have checkwriting ability at any firm where I have money.
Settlement fund is gone but Vgd MM funds offer checkwriting.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by abuss368 »

There were articles and I believe a survey a few years ago from Vanguard about possibly entering the banking world. One can read about it by searching. I thought they were considering a low cost bank and doing to the banking world what they did in the investment world.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by Dandy »

Settlement fund is gone but Vgd MM funds offer checkwriting.
Not sure what that means. Fed Money Market account is the settlement account for our taxable joint account that happens to be an Advantage Account. When the Advantage account goes away I assume we will have a "normal" brokerage account with the Fed Money Market as the settlement account. Will we be able to set up check writing on that account ?-- not unlimited but say with a $250 minimum per check? Or does/will Prime or Treasury Money Market have some check writing option? I could see that check writing on a settlement account could be a problem if money was being actively traded along with having to handle checks.

I have yet to receive any communication from Vanguard that my Advantage Account will be closed. Which is kind of surprising since I am a long term Flagship customer. I guess I'm not special enough :D I will call them to discuss that and the above.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by UpperNwGuy »

abuss368 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 9:37 pm There were articles and I believe a survey a few years ago from Vanguard about possibly entering the banking world. One can read about it by searching. I thought they were considering a low cost bank and doing to the banking world what they did in the investment world.
I think Ally already did that.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by TheGreyingDuke »

Dandy wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:53 am
Settlement fund is gone but Vgd MM funds offer checkwriting.
Not sure what that means. Fed Money Market account is the settlement account for our taxable joint account that happens to be an Advantage Account. When the Advantage account goes away I assume we will have a "normal" brokerage account with the Fed Money Market as the settlement account. Will we be able to set up check writing on that account ?-- not unlimited but say with a $250 minimum per check? Or does/will Prime or Treasury Money Market have some check writing option? I could see that check writing on a settlement account could be a problem if money was being actively traded along with having to handle checks.

I have yet to receive any communication from Vanguard that my Advantage Account will be closed. Which is kind of surprising since I am a long term Flagship customer. I guess I'm not special enough :D I will call them to discuss that and the above.
I checked with Vanguard, you can order checks on the Federal MMF, there is that $250 minimum and you can do direct deposit into it. Forgot to ask if I can pull from it to pay monthly bills.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by Artsdoctor »

sd55 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:10 pm I just moved from Ally to Fidelity for cash management. Ally is excellent, but I got tired of dealing with the withdrawal limits on savings accounts. Here are a few things I learned:

1) You can open a separate brokerage account just for cash management that is not connected to your main account. I did this because I allow external ACH pulls from my cash management account (to pay taxes, credit cards...). I didn't want my margin facility and bulk of my assets in an account with this feature, as I've experienced erroneous transfers in the past.

2) You have 2 options for cash management: the Fidelity CMA or a regular brokerage account with checkwriting, billpay and debit card.
  • The CMA rebates ATM fees, but the brokerage account does as well if you have more than $250K with Fidelity.
  • With the brokerage account, you hold and withdraw cash from one of the core money market options which pay about 2.05%. With the CMA, you withdraw from a bank account that pays 0.4%. However, you can keep a zero balance in the bank account and Fidelity will automatically debit your money market account, so you can hold your cash in a MM yielding 2.25%
  • With the brokerage account, your deposits go to the core account that yields 2.05%. With the CMA, your deposits go to the 0.4% bank account and you need to manually move them to the money market account.
They're pretty close. You just need to decide if you're willing to deal with the hassle of manually moving deposits to get the extra 0.2%.

3) One thing to be aware of is that Fidelity holds check deposits and ACH transfers initiated from Fidelity for a long time. While they can be invested immediately, they can't be withdrawn for about a week. However, if you initiate the ACH from the other bank (eg direct deposit), they appear to be available for withdrawal immediately.
Thank you for this. It's the best synopsis I've read and mirrors what others have written.

I believe that the way Fidelity is profiting from the CMA is sheparding clients into the FDIC-insured sweep account earning very little interest. The representative that I spoke with initially clearly had this in mind. I don't think he was confused, I think that this is what they're instructed to say. As others have pointed out on this forum, you can keep your sweep account balance at zero and link it to a higher-yielding MM account; however, the representative certainly did not suggest this and, as we all know, this forum is filled with sophisticated investors.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by hotpancakes »

Artsdoctor wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:11 am
sd55 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:10 pm I just moved from Ally to Fidelity for cash management. Ally is excellent, but I got tired of dealing with the withdrawal limits on savings accounts. Here are a few things I learned:

1) You can open a separate brokerage account just for cash management that is not connected to your main account. I did this because I allow external ACH pulls from my cash management account (to pay taxes, credit cards...). I didn't want my margin facility and bulk of my assets in an account with this feature, as I've experienced erroneous transfers in the past.

2) You have 2 options for cash management: the Fidelity CMA or a regular brokerage account with checkwriting, billpay and debit card.
  • The CMA rebates ATM fees, but the brokerage account does as well if you have more than $250K with Fidelity.
  • With the brokerage account, you hold and withdraw cash from one of the core money market options which pay about 2.05%. With the CMA, you withdraw from a bank account that pays 0.4%. However, you can keep a zero balance in the bank account and Fidelity will automatically debit your money market account, so you can hold your cash in a MM yielding 2.25%
  • With the brokerage account, your deposits go to the core account that yields 2.05%. With the CMA, your deposits go to the 0.4% bank account and you need to manually move them to the money market account.
They're pretty close. You just need to decide if you're willing to deal with the hassle of manually moving deposits to get the extra 0.2%.

3) One thing to be aware of is that Fidelity holds check deposits and ACH transfers initiated from Fidelity for a long time. While they can be invested immediately, they can't be withdrawn for about a week. However, if you initiate the ACH from the other bank (eg direct deposit), they appear to be available for withdrawal immediately.
Thank you for this. It's the best synopsis I've read and mirrors what others have written.

I believe that the way Fidelity is profiting from the CMA is sheparding clients into the FDIC-insured sweep account earning very little interest. The representative that I spoke with initially clearly had this in mind. I don't think he was confused, I think that this is what they're instructed to say. As others have pointed out on this forum, you can keep your sweep account balance at zero and link it to a higher-yielding MM account; however, the representative certainly did not suggest this and, as we all know, this forum is filled with sophisticated investors.
No need to link it to another MM account. All you have to do is purchase one of Fidelity's Money Market mutual funds, such as SPRXX. Keep in mind that the CMA account is simply a brokerage account with banking features, along with a default sweep position that is FDIC insured. The sweep position cannot be changed on the CMA, but any purchased Fidelity Money Market mutual funds automagically count as liquid cash.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by whodidntante »

Artsdoctor wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:11 am I believe that the way Fidelity is profiting from the CMA is sheparding clients into the FDIC-insured sweep account earning very little interest. The representative that I spoke with initially clearly had this in mind. I don't think he was confused, I think that this is what they're instructed to say. As others have pointed out on this forum, you can keep your sweep account balance at zero and link it to a higher-yielding MM account; however, the representative certainly did not suggest this and, as we all know, this forum is filled with sophisticated investors.
While Fidelity would certainly prefer that you hold money in the barely pays anything FDIC insured account, I think they win either way. They'll earn about $42 in "expenses" per 10k in the Fidelity MMF. I would further guess that leaves them with a profit of at least $30 per 10k, because it doesn't actually cost $42 per 10k to run a leading AUM MMF.

However, the goal is not to prevent every corporation from making money off me. It's to chose the best overall option for myself. Fidelity CMA is really good, and is better for me than the Ally account so many here like. And spoiler alert: Ally is making money off you, even if you can't articulate how.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by Watts »

hotpancakes wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:19 am
Artsdoctor wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 9:11 am
sd55 wrote: Sat Mar 02, 2019 12:10 pm I just moved from Ally to Fidelity for cash management. Ally is excellent, but I got tired of dealing with the withdrawal limits on savings accounts. Here are a few things I learned:

1) You can open a separate brokerage account just for cash management that is not connected to your main account. I did this because I allow external ACH pulls from my cash management account (to pay taxes, credit cards...). I didn't want my margin facility and bulk of my assets in an account with this feature, as I've experienced erroneous transfers in the past.

2) You have 2 options for cash management: the Fidelity CMA or a regular brokerage account with checkwriting, billpay and debit card.
  • The CMA rebates ATM fees, but the brokerage account does as well if you have more than $250K with Fidelity.
  • With the brokerage account, you hold and withdraw cash from one of the core money market options which pay about 2.05%. With the CMA, you withdraw from a bank account that pays 0.4%. However, you can keep a zero balance in the bank account and Fidelity will automatically debit your money market account, so you can hold your cash in a MM yielding 2.25%
  • With the brokerage account, your deposits go to the core account that yields 2.05%. With the CMA, your deposits go to the 0.4% bank account and you need to manually move them to the money market account.
They're pretty close. You just need to decide if you're willing to deal with the hassle of manually moving deposits to get the extra 0.2%.

3) One thing to be aware of is that Fidelity holds check deposits and ACH transfers initiated from Fidelity for a long time. While they can be invested immediately, they can't be withdrawn for about a week. However, if you initiate the ACH from the other bank (eg direct deposit), they appear to be available for withdrawal immediately.
Thank you for this. It's the best synopsis I've read and mirrors what others have written.

I believe that the way Fidelity is profiting from the CMA is sheparding clients into the FDIC-insured sweep account earning very little interest. The representative that I spoke with initially clearly had this in mind. I don't think he was confused, I think that this is what they're instructed to say. As others have pointed out on this forum, you can keep your sweep account balance at zero and link it to a higher-yielding MM account; however, the representative certainly did not suggest this and, as we all know, this forum is filled with sophisticated investors.
No need to link it to another MM account. All you have to do is purchase one of Fidelity's Money Market mutual funds, such as SPRXX. Keep in mind that the CMA account is simply a brokerage account with banking features, along with a default sweep position that is FDIC insured. The sweep position cannot be changed on the CMA, but any purchased Fidelity Money Market mutual funds automagically count as liquid cash.
I agree. I've been using the Fidelity CMA for about a year. I keep my money in SPRXX. It's relatively simple to do. The direct deposit goes into the CMA account (as an FDIC-insured deposit). I then just buy the amount of the deposit that day in SPRXX. Only have to do it twice per month, so it's not a big deal. Only one account to deal with.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by stan1 »

whodidntante wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 10:32 am
While Fidelity would certainly prefer that you hold money in the barely pays anything FDIC insured account, I think they win either way. They'll earn about $42 in "expenses" per 10k in the Fidelity MMF. I would further guess that leaves them with a profit of at least $30 per 10k, because it doesn't actually cost $42 per 10k to run a leading AUM MMF.
Maybe not $30 of profit per $10K, but $42 per $10K in allocated expenses compared to $16 per $10K in Vanguard Prime MMF or $9 per $10K in Vanguard Treasury Money Market fund gives Fidelity plenty of space to pay for the extra services such as a CMA, local offices, and more competent phone reps their customers are asking for (as well as make a profit).
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by edge »

Vanguard seems to have done a shoddy job ripping out the VanguardAdvantage account. It is still listed in various places including the 'account maintenance' part of the website. Clicking through things eventually causes the user to get to broken or confusing links.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by PatrickA5 »

TheGreyingDuke wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:38 am
Dandy wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:53 am
Settlement fund is gone but Vgd MM funds offer checkwriting.
Not sure what that means. Fed Money Market account is the settlement account for our taxable joint account that happens to be an Advantage Account. When the Advantage account goes away I assume we will have a "normal" brokerage account with the Fed Money Market as the settlement account. Will we be able to set up check writing on that account ?-- not unlimited but say with a $250 minimum per check? Or does/will Prime or Treasury Money Market have some check writing option? I could see that check writing on a settlement account could be a problem if money was being actively traded along with having to handle checks.

I have yet to receive any communication from Vanguard that my Advantage Account will be closed. Which is kind of surprising since I am a long term Flagship customer. I guess I'm not special enough :D I will call them to discuss that and the above.
I checked with Vanguard, you can order checks on the Federal MMF, there is that $250 minimum and you can do direct deposit into it. Forgot to ask if I can pull from it to pay monthly bills.
The way my Flagship rep explained it to me was:

Since I am still on the Mutual Fund platform, I can opt to have check writing on either the Fed MM or Prime MM (or both). Checks have to be $250 or more.

If I were to transition to the Brokerage platform, then Check writing would be limited to the Federal Money Market Fund. Checks still have to be $250.

I don't believe you will be able to pull money from the account to pay monthly bills because there won't be a routing/account number associated with the account. No ATM card either. You can automate transfers to a linked bank account monthly, if you want.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by ShadowRegent »

I'm considering moving to Fidelity for my checking account. Assuming that I don't care about the ATM rebate, is there any reason not to simply add debit/checkwriting to a brokerage account and forego the CMA account that I'd be leaving empty? Will checkwriting on the brokerage account also liquidate SPRXX if I purchase it in the brokerage account?

On the note of the ATM rebate which is there on the brokerage account for assets > $250k, does anyone know if unvested RSUs in a stock plan account are considered? Normally, I wouldn't think so, but all of the total balance numbers on the site don't seem to care if the RSUs are vested or not. Mostly curious as I withdraw funds at an ATM very, very rarely.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by DiscerningConsumer »

My Flagship rep said there was no plan to offer a similar service just as there is no plan to restore customer service hours we used to have Saturday and no longer have.

I hate to think I may have to leave Vanguard but Vanguard management no longer seems to have any interest in providing decent customer service--although the reps I speak with are still trying to be as helpful as they can be under the circumstances,
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by dkturner »

We have had an Advantage Account for more than twelve years, but is this news really a big deal? Unless I’m mistaken it’s still possible to get checkwriting privileges for Vanguard money market accounts. The only downside with individual fund checkwriting is the $250 minimum per check. You can still get high interest on your cash reserves, with ready access. I realize that Billpay and ATM access will go away, but these services are available in virtually every bank in the U.S.

Would one of the many outraged posters here please help us quantify the $ amount we are being deprived of by Vanguard’s dastardly act?
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by welderwannabe »

PatrickA5 wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:43 am If I were to transition to the Brokerage platform, then Check writing would be limited to the Federal Money Market Fund. Checks still have to be $250.
This is partially correct. The primary source of funds is the settlement fund. However, Vanguard lets you select an alternate redemption fund so if your Settlement fund does not have enough money they will liquidate enough of your alternate fund to cover the check.

The choices of alternate redemption funds are limited to their MM funds and short term bond funds.

So you can easily use the Prime MM as your alternate fund. Its what I do for my Efund I keep at Vanguard in a dedicated brokerage account.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by Doc »

Brokerage accounts w/o Vanguard Advantage.
Vanguard wrote:Automatic withdrawals allow you to move money to your authorized bank on file or between existing non-retirement accounts and Vanguard Brokerage IRAs at Vanguard. If you'd like to establish automatic transactions that move money from your bank to Vanguard, please use our automatic investment feature.
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/XHTML/ ... wAIP.xhtml

Options for transfers from settlement account to your bank include frequency (every month, every week, twice a month, every two weeks).

Set it and forget it.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by heartwood »

PatrickA5 wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:43 am
TheGreyingDuke wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 7:38 am
Dandy wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 6:53 am
Settlement fund is gone but Vgd MM funds offer checkwriting.
Not sure what that means. Fed Money Market account is the settlement account for our taxable joint account that happens to be an Advantage Account. When the Advantage account goes away I assume we will have a "normal" brokerage account with the Fed Money Market as the settlement account. Will we be able to set up check writing on that account ?-- not unlimited but say with a $250 minimum per check? Or does/will Prime or Treasury Money Market have some check writing option? I could see that check writing on a settlement account could be a problem if money was being actively traded along with having to handle checks.

I have yet to receive any communication from Vanguard that my Advantage Account will be closed. Which is kind of surprising since I am a long term Flagship customer. I guess I'm not special enough :D I will call them to discuss that and the above.
I checked with Vanguard, you can order checks on the Federal MMF, there is that $250 minimum and you can do direct deposit into it. Forgot to ask if I can pull from it to pay monthly bills.
The way my Flagship rep explained it to me was:

Since I am still on the Mutual Fund platform, I can opt to have check writing on either the Fed MM or Prime MM (or both). Checks have to be $250 or more.

If I were to transition to the Brokerage platform, then Check writing would be limited to the Federal Money Market Fund. Checks still have to be $250.

I don't believe you will be able to pull money from the account to pay monthly bills because there won't be a routing/account number associated with the account. No ATM card either. You can automate transfers to a linked bank account monthly, if you want.
That's as I understand it with emphasis on "to a linked bank account." There are no routing numbers for the Federal MM fund. So no outside pulls/pushes. I'm in the process of linking the Federal MM at Vanguard to the CMA at Fidelity. It will only work from Vanguard (push or pull). The Fidelity account has routing numbers that Vanguard will use, but I won't be able to originate a push/pull at Fidelity.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by Doc »

heartwood wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:02 pm That's as I understand it with emphasis on "to a linked bank account." There are no routing numbers for the Federal MM fund. So no outside pulls/pushes. I'm in the process of linking the Federal MM at Vanguard to the CMA at Fidelity. It will only work from Vanguard (push or pull). The Fidelity account has routing numbers that Vanguard will use, but I won't be able to originate a push/pull at Fidelity.
There is a routing number for your settlement account. That's how you can get your paycheck automatically deposited. I also use it to push money from Schwab to Vanguard initiated at Schwab. I can't do the same thing from our bank not because of the lack of routing numbers but because the bank can't suck back its trial deposits. Neither could Schwab but a simple phone call telling them the problem solved it in a few minutes. Trying to initiate a pull from your Vanguard account initiated from an outside is a different matter.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by nix4me »

Has anyone used both the Schwab and Fidelity cash management (checking) accounts? Would be interested in a comparison.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by whodidntante »

ShadowRegent wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:44 am I'm considering moving to Fidelity for my checking account. Assuming that I don't care about the ATM rebate, is there any reason not to simply add debit/checkwriting to a brokerage account and forego the CMA account that I'd be leaving empty? Will checkwriting on the brokerage account also liquidate SPRXX if I purchase it in the brokerage account?

On the note of the ATM rebate which is there on the brokerage account for assets > $250k, does anyone know if unvested RSUs in a stock plan account are considered? Normally, I wouldn't think so, but all of the total balance numbers on the site don't seem to care if the RSUs are vested or not. Mostly curious as I withdraw funds at an ATM very, very rarely.
Fidelity is not like Vanguard. You could have asked Fidelity your questions and gotten an answer in the time it took you to write your post and wait on us. Live chat is still open right now, and you can call anytime. Seriously, try it.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by 2008survivor »

Vanguard advertisers how we are all "owners" of Vanguard, and they do everything for our benefit.

Why then do we then not get a vote when they change policies that have a direct effect on us?

Lip service is very different than real service.

We have an account for a small family foundation with Vanguard (in addition to personal accounts Their rules do not permit us to have any money market accounts other than the Federal MM in that account ( a disadvantage in itself). The only way we can take money out of the account is to write an Advantage Account check. I have not yet spoken to them about the problem, but it appears that they are trapping all the Fund's assets so that they can't leave Vanguard. Did they think this through?
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by prudent »

2008survivor wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:58 pm Vanguard advertisers how we are all "owners" of Vanguard, and they do everything for our benefit.

Why then do we then not get a vote when they change policies that have a direct effect on us?

Lip service is very different than real service.

We have an account for a small family foundation with Vanguard (in addition to personal accounts Their rules do not permit us to have any money market accounts other than the Federal MM in that account ( a disadvantage in itself). The only way we can take money out of the account is to write an Advantage Account check. I have not yet spoken to them about the problem, but it appears that they are trapping all the Fund's assets so that they can't leave Vanguard. Did they think this through?
Why is writing a check your only method of pulling money out?
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by TheGreyingDuke »

+1

what about ACH or wire?
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by heartwood »

Doc wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:19 pm
heartwood wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:02 pm That's as I understand it with emphasis on "to a linked bank account." There are no routing numbers for the Federal MM fund. So no outside pulls/pushes. I'm in the process of linking the Federal MM at Vanguard to the CMA at Fidelity. It will only work from Vanguard (push or pull). The Fidelity account has routing numbers that Vanguard will use, but I won't be able to originate a push/pull at Fidelity.
There is a routing number for your settlement account. That's how you can get your paycheck automatically deposited. I also use it to push money from Schwab to Vanguard initiated at Schwab. I can't do the same thing from our bank not because of the lack of routing numbers but because the bank can't suck back its trial deposits. Neither could Schwab but a simple phone call telling them the problem solved it in a few minutes. Trying to initiate a pull from your Vanguard account initiated from an outside is a different matter.
My mileage varies from yours. I can do that now using the routing/account on my Advantage account for several credit cards, mortgage etc. My pension and SS are direct deposited to the settlement account, but using unique routing numbers for each that were specifically generated by Vanguard. My rep advises that those (pension + SS) will be unaffected by loss of the Advantage account, and my rep reports that there are no routing numbers for the settlement account itself that can be used for other push/pulls and those will have to be moved outside of Vanguard.

With the Advantage account I've been pull/push from Fidelity, at Fidelity, for years, but that access uses the Advantage routing numbers. I'm in process to establish linking the Van settlement account to Fidelity now, but since no routing, I can only originate at Vanguard.
If you have other information, would you share your settlement account bank routing (not the account, just the bank)?
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by G-Force »

WSJ now has an article about this.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/vanguard-t ... 1551639935

According to the article, less than 2% of eligible vanguard clients use the service.
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Doc
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by Doc »

heartwood wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 2:40 pm My mileage varies from yours. I can do that now using the routing/account on my Advantage account for several credit cards, mortgage etc. My pension and SS are direct deposited to the settlement account, but using unique routing numbers for each that were specifically generated by Vanguard. My rep advises that those (pension + SS) will be unaffected by loss of the Advantage account, and my rep reports that there are no routing numbers for the settlement account itself that can be used for other push/pulls and those will have to be moved outside of Vanguard.
Our mileage is not so much varied as that it is lost in the minutiae. Obviously there has to be a unique routing number so that your SS goes to your account and not mine. And yes there are no routing numbers for push/pulls initiated from outside. The emphasis is on the pull. I push regularly from Schwab to Vanguard initiative at Schwab. But I cannot pull. This was a problem when I set it up because Schwab could not pull back their two small trial deposits. A few minutes on the phone resulted in the pullback requirement being waved. A similar situation occurred with our bank except after ten days of work by the bank expert the problem failed to be resolve. Since I could always do the push/pull if it was initiated at Vanguard I didn't pursue the problem further.

From this discussion it seems that you could both push and pull from your Vanguard Advantage account and that is going away.

No matter how convenient the system, having some entity pull money from my brokerage account is anathema to me. Having that entity pull from my bank checking account is not a concern because the amount is limited by the account balance which is at most a few weeks of expenses even if the bank did not make me whole.
A scientist looks for THE answer to a problem, an engineer looks for AN answer and lawyers ONLY have opinions. Investing is not a science.
Nthomas
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by Nthomas »

G-Force wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:16 pm WSJ now has an article about this.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/vanguard-t ... 1551639935

According to the article, less than 2% of eligible vanguard clients use the service.
The esteemed Bill Bernstein is quoted in the article.
friar1610
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Re: Discontinuing VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by friar1610 »

friar1610 wrote: Thu Feb 28, 2019 4:00 pm We have an Advantage account for our joint taxable account. We don't do any automatic bill paying through that account, preferring to use our primary "bank" (actually a credit union). If I recall correctly, Vanguard put me in the Advantage account years ago because I wanted two simple things:

- the ability to write checks against my MM account. Back in the day, that was the Prime MMF. When they changed over to the Fed MMF as the settlement account, that became the account against which checks were written. Still OK with me.

- a debit card that I could use to:

- - withdraw cash from my settlement account via an ATM
- - purchase things using money in the settlement account without getting a credit card bill

Both have worked fine although I probably only do one or the other monthly.

If I understand correctly, both these capabilities will go away with the demise of the Advantage accounts. This isn't the end of the world for me but it's an inconvenience and a disincentive to stick with VG. I understand that I could convert my VG MF shares to ETFs and then move them to Fidelity or Schwab with no tax consequences. I'll look into doing that if I determine that either of them can provide the check-writing and debit card capabilities that VG wants to remove.

As an aside, probably like many of you, I'm a member of the VG Steering Community. About once a week I receive a short survey from VG in which they ask about various aspects of their products/services or about my investing habits. This feedback is presumably used to improve things for VG clients. I can't recall ever having been asked for feedback on Advantage accounts although I suppose it's possible that I'm misremembering. But it makes me wonder what was the client feedback that drove this change?
After thinking this over for a few days and reading most of the other posts, I've decided to make the change to a non-Advantage brokerage account and give it a try for 6 months or so before doing anything precipitous. As long as there will be check-writing against the Fed MM account I can probably live without the debit/ATM card. I'd prefer to be able to write smaller checks than $250 but we'll see how it goes. If it turns out to be too inconvenient I'll make the switch. If not, I'll just stick with VG.
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gjlynch17
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by gjlynch17 »

Nthomas wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:42 pm
G-Force wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:16 pm WSJ now has an article about this.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/vanguard-t ... 1551639935

According to the article, less than 2% of eligible vanguard clients use the service.
The esteemed Bill Bernstein is quoted in the article.
“It is not a simple problem to lose your online banking,” said William Bernstein, a 70-year-old book author and retired physician who has used the service for over a decade.

He said all his income has been directed into VanguardAdvantage and all bills are paid through that service. “My major concern is not the time and effort required from me, but its effect on folks who have with age become increasingly unable to navigate the system.”

A self-professed Boglehead, he has considered turning to Vanguard competitor Fidelity Investments for cash-management services.


I am with Bill and have set up a cash management account at Fidelity (with a lot of guidance from the posters on these Boards.
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William4u
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by William4u »

gjlynch17 wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 5:15 pm
Nthomas wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:42 pm
G-Force wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 4:16 pm WSJ now has an article about this.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/vanguard-t ... 1551639935

According to the article, less than 2% of eligible vanguard clients use the service.
The esteemed Bill Bernstein is quoted in the article.
“It is not a simple problem to lose your online banking,” said William Bernstein, a 70-year-old book author and retired physician who has used the service for over a decade.

He said all his income has been directed into VanguardAdvantage and all bills are paid through that service. “My major concern is not the time and effort required from me, but its effect on folks who have with age become increasingly unable to navigate the system.”

A self-professed Boglehead, he has considered turning to Vanguard competitor Fidelity Investments for cash-management services.


I am with Bill and have set up a cash management account at Fidelity (with a lot of guidance from the posters on these Boards.
I agree with Bill Bernstein. I'm afraid I'll have to move much of our finances to Fidelity for cash-management services. A couple of family member may do so as well.

The WSJ article notes that only 1% of eligible people at Vanguard (those with more than $500k) took advantage of the service, but this is Vanguard's fault for not advertising it and promoting it. It was practically a hidden feature for many years.
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Re: Vanguard is Discontinuing their VanguardAdvantage Accounts

Post by ShadowRegent »

whodidntante wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 1:48 pm
ShadowRegent wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2019 11:44 am I'm considering moving to Fidelity for my checking account. Assuming that I don't care about the ATM rebate, is there any reason not to simply add debit/checkwriting to a brokerage account and forego the CMA account that I'd be leaving empty? Will checkwriting on the brokerage account also liquidate SPRXX if I purchase it in the brokerage account?

On the note of the ATM rebate which is there on the brokerage account for assets > $250k, does anyone know if unvested RSUs in a stock plan account are considered? Normally, I wouldn't think so, but all of the total balance numbers on the site don't seem to care if the RSUs are vested or not. Mostly curious as I withdraw funds at an ATM very, very rarely.
Fidelity is not like Vanguard. You could have asked Fidelity your questions and gotten an answer in the time it took you to write your post and wait on us. Live chat is still open right now, and you can call anytime. Seriously, try it.
It's quite refreshing to be able to get answers from a company... especially ones that are likely to be right.
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