Vanguard brokerage account transition

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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

This thread has taught me that being politely asked for nearly a decade to consider migrating to a platform of choice that maintains the vast majority of functionality to which I have become accustomed and stubbornly refusing to do so of my own free will equates to being treated like garbage. An interesting take on things.
mc2
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by mc2 »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 2:54 pm This thread has taught me that being politely asked for nearly a decade to consider migrating to a platform of choice that maintains the vast majority of functionality to which I have become accustomed and stubbornly refusing to do so of my own free will equates to being treated like garbage. An interesting take on things.
Love the fervor and I can relate/respect. Term adjustments are usually unilateral (think ins policy updates).
Cheers and freedom!
ronin
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by ronin »

I wonder why Vanguard even bothers with offering brokerage account or any direct relationships with individuals. While they appear to excel at managing index portfolios, many would say they are weak on providing consumer facing products and services.

Maybe they ought to outright get out of the direct relationship business and merely offer ETFs on the open market that would be accessed from a brokerage account at a firm that seems more genuinely interested in those direct consumer relationships.
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Eagle33
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Eagle33 »

ronin wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 9:40 pm I wonder why Vanguard even bothers with offering brokerage account or any direct relationships with individuals. While they appear to excel at managing index portfolios, many would say they are weak on providing consumer facing products and services.

Maybe they ought to outright get out of the direct relationship business and merely offer ETFs on the open market that would be accessed from a brokerage account at a firm that seems more genuinely interested in those direct consumer relationships.
Maybe when they get us all using the brokerage style accounts, VG will outsource the brokerage administration services?
Rocket science is not “rocket science” to a rocket scientist, just as personal finance is not “rocket science” to a Boglehead.
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

abuss368 wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:59 pm
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 4:39 pm Some folks are just being needlessly stubborn about this. Just do it for the common good and move on.
The more I read about it I am not so sure I see a big deal over the change.
Have you transitioned?
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

abuss368 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 11:18 am * Monthly account statements that will say "YTD" but are not true "YTD" statements. I think Vanguard is simply not going to offer a complete YTD statement again. I have been simplifying and as such are not going to retain, save, print, electronic, etc. statements any longer. In almost 30 years I have never had one request for any statement ever. And I refuse to save a monthly statement per account per month. In a couple of years that is going be be a huge and growing pile of files.
How is a year to date PDF statement simplifying? It takes not more compute to generate a year to date PDF than the monthly statements that a brokerage account provides.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

abuss368 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 2:26 pm I am surprised more Bogleheads are not being proactive with planning and transition to the new brokerage account platform.
Perhaps this is because they have transitioned one account and realized the downsides and issues with the brokerage platform.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 7:03 am ^^Nice summary, and good for you for being proactive. Please report on your observations of the transition itself and post-transition landscape as an example for others in similar situations. The two tax forms in year of transition is a minor annoyance, but TurboTax can import both formats, and they both cover discrete and non-overlapping timelines. The main thing is that you need to remember that the brokerage account tax forms come out slightly later if you are prone to filing early. If you only hold Vanguard mutual funds in the new brokerage account format, I believe the expected timing for tax form availability is "late January". Avoidance of the two tax forms is why migrating in early January is advocated by some. For myself, I did it mid-year several years ago, and it was essentially a non-issue.
The brokerage account tax forms come out slightly later and there is nothing that you can do about this. How is this an improvement? I guess it's a personal failing if "if you are prone to filing early".
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

abuss368 wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:04 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:02 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:13 pm Perhaps this is an unfair assessment, but that's my take after months of reading these threads.

Folks, you aren't too old to change. Take the leap. The water's fine.
can you address staunchlydubious' issues (below). I had not even considered these reasons and am glad staunchlydubious posted them. I have seen no response to these in particular and think they deserve some responses other than merely poo-pooing those of us who have valid concerns.
(1) I insist in holding my Vanguard shares in my name as the direct registered owner. Under no circumstances will I allow my shares to be held in "street name" through Vanguard Brokerage Services.
(2) The Vanguard Brokerage Account Agreement contains a number of provisions that I won't agree to. The most important being:
(a) ¶6.f. I don't owe Vanguard any money, I never have, and I never will. I refuse to grant them a lien on my mutual fund shares.
(b) ¶6.i. I refuse to have my shares held in street name. I don't want brokerage commingling them with the shares of any other customers. I've paid for my shares in full; I'm entitled to unambiguous absolute ownership of them.
(c) ¶9.a. If I have a legal dispute with Vanguard, I refuse to allow New York law to apply. I live in California. Vanguard actively conducts business in California. The State of New York has absolutely no relationship to any of my dealings with Vanguard regarding my ownership of Vanguard shares. I expect California law to apply.
(d) ¶9.c. If a Vanguard employee is negligent or incompetent or careless and causes me serious loss, why should I hold Vanguard harmless for my damages? Vanguard says I can only recover if its behavior is so egregious that it amounts to "gross negligence" or "willful misconduct." Sorry -- don't buy it.
(e) ¶9.f. I'm forced to give up my right to sue in court, and instead I'm required to agree to predispute mandatory arbitration. No thanks. These are the kinds of adhesion contracts that big employers are using against employees, big health care providers are using against patients, big Wall Street firms are using against their customers. We're shareholders and owners of The Vanguard Group. We're entitled to more respect. Alas, the fading memory of John Bogle.
I did read that message upthread and was surprised. I can not see Vanguard modifying or making an exception to any of those issues.
LOL. But do you think these issues are reasonable?
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

Broken Man 1999 wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:43 am Vanguard received a lot of flack about their CMA account being discontinued. Yet they did so, as a business decision. I imagine the business decision of closing MF platform involves many, many dollars more that the CMA business decision.

Broken Man 1999
Why do you think it involves many, many dollars more that the CMA business decision?
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

rob wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 9:05 am
Broken Man 1999 wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:43 am Not that I am advocating this, but what prevents Vanguard from "divorcing" a customer they no longer wish to have a business relationship with?
This is exactly what's been done here.... Vanguard now brings in trillions and they don't need the hassle; people who need minority features (compliance reporting, dividend reinvest, ytd statements etc.) are been not so subtly divorced over the conversion period because they are just deadwood... Another example is the features lost - cash mgt functions, named reps etc. Most of the features discussed above could have fairly easily been introduced over the last handful of years that the "new" platform has existed. It's sad...
It's very sad for those that have been with Vanguard for 20+ years. What is the best alternative?
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 10:31 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:02 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:13 pm Perhaps this is an unfair assessment, but that's my take after months of reading these threads.

Folks, you aren't too old to change. Take the leap. The water's fine.
can you address staunchlydubious' issues (below). I had not even considered these reasons and am glad staunchlydubious posted them. I have seen no response to these in particular and think they deserve some responses other than merely poo-pooing those of us who have valid concerns.
(1) I insist in holding my Vanguard shares in my name as the direct registered owner. Under no circumstances will I allow my shares to be held in "street name" through Vanguard Brokerage Services.
(2) The Vanguard Brokerage Account Agreement contains a number of provisions that I won't agree to. The most important being:
(a) ¶6.f. I don't owe Vanguard any money, I never have, and I never will. I refuse to grant them a lien on my mutual fund shares.
(b) ¶6.i. I refuse to have my shares held in street name. I don't want brokerage commingling them with the shares of any other customers. I've paid for my shares in full; I'm entitled to unambiguous absolute ownership of them.
(c) ¶9.a. If I have a legal dispute with Vanguard, I refuse to allow New York law to apply. I live in California. Vanguard actively conducts business in California. The State of New York has absolutely no relationship to any of my dealings with Vanguard regarding my ownership of Vanguard shares. I expect California law to apply.
(d) ¶9.c. If a Vanguard employee is negligent or incompetent or careless and causes me serious loss, why should I hold Vanguard harmless for my damages? Vanguard says I can only recover if its behavior is so egregious that it amounts to "gross negligence" or "willful misconduct." Sorry -- don't buy it.
(e) ¶9.f. I'm forced to give up my right to sue in court, and instead I'm required to agree to predispute mandatory arbitration. No thanks. These are the kinds of adhesion contracts that big employers are using against employees, big health care providers are using against patients, big Wall Street firms are using against their customers. We're shareholders and owners of The Vanguard Group. We're entitled to more respect. Alas, the fading memory of John Bogle.
Good questions. No, I cannot answer questions with that much technical specificity. It's something that is so far outside of my day-to-day consideration as to have no impact to me, so I have not explored. NYCPete took a stab above.

I think another challenge is where are you going to move to find these certain fringe specifics of the old Vanguard platform, at least without making other compromises? Good luck. Sometimes industries and technologies change and it becomes difficult to have all your preferences met. I prefer a manual transmission, but most moderate quality and reasonably-priced practical vehicles no longer even offer this option in the US market. I settled for an automatic on last purchase. Still miss the manual sometimes, but I don't when I'm in stop-and-go traffic, and it still gets me where I need to go. I'd usually also rather take the plunge before it is forced on me to have some time to troubleshoot.
You said you can't answer questions with that much technical specificity but you also said folks, you aren't too old to change. Take the leap. The water's fine.

This seems to be cognitive dissonance.
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

BigJohn wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 11:24 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:15 am
abuss368 wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:04 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:02 am can you address staunchlydubious' issues (below). I had not even considered these reasons and am glad staunchlydubious posted them. I have seen no response to these in particular and think they deserve some responses other than merely poo-pooing those of us who have valid concerns.
(1) I insist in holding my Vanguard shares in my name as the direct registered owner. Under no circumstances will I allow my shares to be held in "street name" through Vanguard Brokerage Services.
(2) The Vanguard Brokerage Account Agreement contains a number of provisions that I won't agree to. The most important being:
(a) ¶6.f. I don't owe Vanguard any money, I never have, and I never will. I refuse to grant them a lien on my mutual fund shares.
(b) ¶6.i. I refuse to have my shares held in street name. I don't want brokerage commingling them with the shares of any other customers. I've paid for my shares in full; I'm entitled to unambiguous absolute ownership of them.
(c) ¶9.a. If I have a legal dispute with Vanguard, I refuse to allow New York law to apply. I live in California. Vanguard actively conducts business in California. The State of New York has absolutely no relationship to any of my dealings with Vanguard regarding my ownership of Vanguard shares. I expect California law to apply.
(d) ¶9.c. If a Vanguard employee is negligent or incompetent or careless and causes me serious loss, why should I hold Vanguard harmless for my damages? Vanguard says I can only recover if its behavior is so egregious that it amounts to "gross negligence" or "willful misconduct." Sorry -- don't buy it.
(e) ¶9.f. I'm forced to give up my right to sue in court, and instead I'm required to agree to predispute mandatory arbitration. No thanks. These are the kinds of adhesion contracts that big employers are using against employees, big health care providers are using against patients, big Wall Street firms are using against their customers. We're shareholders and owners of The Vanguard Group. We're entitled to more respect. Alas, the fading memory of John Bogle.
I did read that message upthread and was surprised. I can not see Vanguard modifying or making an exception to any of those issues.
Well then, these seem like pretty important reasons NOT to transition. I always say there are trade-offs in life. Many here are accusing us of driving up costs for them. But the other side of the equation is what are they giving up (see list above) to save a buck or two?
First two questions... This appears to be a list of issues from reading the brokerage account agreement. Are we sure that some or all of these provisions don’t also apply to the VG mutual fund accounts? I searched for the MF account agreement but couldn’t find it, however, I’d be surprised if much of this wasn’t in there also. Would these provisions be materially different with a new account at Fidelity, Schwab, etc? Once again, I doubt it. Glad to be proven wrong on either of both if someone has data.

Second a comment.... in today’s world these terms and conditions just are what they are. I would prefer not to have arbitration clauses, or be required to give up my personal data to use Google/FB/Amazon but that’s reality. You can either accept them or you can choose not to do business with the company. All of the things on the list above fall into that category as far as I’m concerned.

Third a prediction... As I understand it, VG cannot force you to open a brokerage account. So, I think VG is going to make it increasingly difficult for people to stay on the old platform. Some combination of fees, loss of functionality, loss of access to some types of purchases, etc. I honestly don’t have a problem with that strategy. This is obviously an increment cost so the people that use it should pay. I don’t know if VG has the legal right to terminate the relationship unilaterally but if they do, that’s probably their end game. So, if I was wedded to the old platform I’d be starting to look at the next best alternative to see if the grass is really greener or not. I’m sure it will be for some but I’m guessing that it won’t be for all.
However, there may be a class action lawsuit against Vanguard if they go down this path.
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:13 am Let's flip it around. What is YOUR reason NOT to move? If you don't have a strong reason not to, why not do it to assist with an obvious asset manager priority, be on the selected platform for the future, and generally be agreeable?
Because there are many downsides as shown in the posts above? This is a business relationship not a let's be agreeable with whatever Vanguard want to do.
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

nanameg wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 1:19 pm
jeffyscott wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 5:11 am
Eagle33 wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 1:02 amWould anyone be incentivized to make the switch if VG lower MF's ER to match ETF ER if the MF is held in a brokerage style account?
Yes. But I don't think they could charge a different ER...or actually, I guess they could by making it a different share class. And maybe they would not even need to create a new one, perhaps could be accomplished by making the institutional share class available at a low minimum to those who hold in brokerage. Even if it were to require the old $10K or even $50K as a minimum, that would inspire me to make the transition.

We have both types of accounts, too. Since we use only Vanguard MF in these accounts and have no interest in switching to ETFs, there is no reason to make a change at this time.
I’ve mentioned in several posts that PAS clients are being “ forced” to change to ETF’s as well as use the brokerage platform. No choice. No more mutual funds if u use the PAS.

Is this going to be the next step? Brokerage platform only for all of Vanguard clients ... then ETF’s only for all vanguard clients?
How is this legal? Forcing clients to change to ETFs? What happened to Jack Bogle's Vanguard?
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

staunchlydubious wrote: Thu Jan 02, 2020 6:42 pm What can Vanguard do? It can't take your mutual fund shares away. As I understand it, those of us holding mutual fund shares in the "legacy" accounts are directly registered as the owners of our shares on the books and records of each of the mutual funds in which we are invested. Those books and records are maintained by The Vanguard Group, Inc., in its capacity as transfer agent for each of the Vanguard funds. Vanguard isn't going to cease being the transfer agent, and the transfer agent isn't going to be relieved of its obligation to maintain the records of your ownership and produce confirmations and statements of your transactions and holdings. This is all required by law, and it's going to continue to be required even if you move your accounts to brokerage.

So, what does it mean that they are going to "shut down the old platform?" They can't shut down the transfer agent or its reporting functions.

If you're being hassled by a Vanguard rep, I would demand a copy of the written policy that governs this transition (they've stopped calling it an "upgrade" because it isn't) from legacy account ownership to brokerage account ownership. Who adopted this policy? Did it come from the board of directors or is this just a management initiative coming out of Vanguard Marketing Corporation?

I haven't given Vanguard my final answer yet (I'm drafting a set of detailed questions for them first), but these are some of the drop-dead issues for me:
(1) I insist in holding my Vanguard shares in my name as the direct registered owner. Under no circumstances will I allow my shares to be held in "street name" through Vanguard Brokerage Services.
(2) The Vanguard Brokerage Account Agreement contains a number of provisions that I won't agree to. The most important being:
(a) ¶6.f. I don't owe Vanguard any money, I never have, and I never will. I refuse to grant them a lien on my mutual fund shares.
(b) ¶6.i. I refuse to have my shares held in street name. I don't want brokerage commingling them with the shares of any other customers. I've paid for my shares in full; I'm entitled to unambiguous absolute ownership of them.
(c) ¶9.a. If I have a legal dispute with Vanguard, I refuse to allow New York law to apply. I live in California. Vanguard actively conducts business in California. The State of New York has absolutely no relationship to any of my dealings with Vanguard regarding my ownership of Vanguard shares. I expect California law to apply.
(d) ¶9.c. If a Vanguard employee is negligent or incompetent or careless and causes me serious loss, why should I hold Vanguard harmless for my damages? Vanguard says I can only recover if its behavior is so egregious that it amounts to "gross negligence" or "willful misconduct." Sorry -- don't buy it.
(e) ¶9.f. I'm forced to give up my right to sue in court, and instead I'm required to agree to predispute mandatory arbitration. No thanks. These are the kinds of adhesion contracts that big employers are using against employees, big health care providers are using against patients, big Wall Street firms are using against their customers. We're shareholders and owners of The Vanguard Group. We're entitled to more respect. Alas, the fading memory of John Bogle.

Mike
+1000

Do you have a link to the Vanguard Brokerage Account Agreement?
BigJohn
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by BigJohn »

palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:18 pm .
However, there may be a class action lawsuit against Vanguard if they go down this path.
Based on what? Did VG promise somewhere to provide the exact same service in perpetuity? I'm not saying it won't happen, people and lawyers get together with class action lawsuits on all sorts of marginal things. The only winners are the lawyers.

Please, if anyone here is so inclined, do us all a favor and just leave VG now for whatever greener pastures you can find.
palanzo
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

BigJohn wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 11:38 pm
palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:18 pm .
However, there may be a class action lawsuit against Vanguard if they go down this path.
Based on what? Did VG promise somewhere to provide the exact same service in perpetuity? I'm not saying it won't happen, people and lawyers get together with class action lawsuits on all sorts of marginal things. The only winners are the lawyers.

Please, if anyone here is so inclined, do us all a favor and just leave VG now for whatever greener pastures you can find.
Based on being forced to move to the brokerage platform, being forced to move to ETFs and being told that the "old" platform may experience "outages".

Being forced to allow NY law to apply when you are not governed by NY law.

Would you agree to these terms and conditions?
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:04 pm
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 7:03 am ^^Nice summary, and good for you for being proactive. Please report on your observations of the transition itself and post-transition landscape as an example for others in similar situations. The two tax forms in year of transition is a minor annoyance, but TurboTax can import both formats, and they both cover discrete and non-overlapping timelines. The main thing is that you need to remember that the brokerage account tax forms come out slightly later if you are prone to filing early. If you only hold Vanguard mutual funds in the new brokerage account format, I believe the expected timing for tax form availability is "late January". Avoidance of the two tax forms is why migrating in early January is advocated by some. For myself, I did it mid-year several years ago, and it was essentially a non-issue.
The brokerage account tax forms come out slightly later and there is nothing that you can do about this. How is this an improvement? I guess it's a personal failing if "if you are prone to filing early".
No, it's not a failing. I tend to file early as well, although it burned me this year in that it made me ineligible for a stimulus payment whereas my 2018 AGI would have resulted in decent payment. I filed before COVID-19 really emerged as a big threat in the US, and certainly before any stimulus legislation was finalized. Oops! But really, from the old mutual fund accounts to the new brokerage accounts with mutual funds only, it's like a 2-week difference in tax form availability, so this is really only a minor impact, and only if you normally file in early January.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:15 pm
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 10:31 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:02 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:13 pm Perhaps this is an unfair assessment, but that's my take after months of reading these threads.

Folks, you aren't too old to change. Take the leap. The water's fine.
can you address staunchlydubious' issues (below). I had not even considered these reasons and am glad staunchlydubious posted them. I have seen no response to these in particular and think they deserve some responses other than merely poo-pooing those of us who have valid concerns.
(1) I insist in holding my Vanguard shares in my name as the direct registered owner. Under no circumstances will I allow my shares to be held in "street name" through Vanguard Brokerage Services.
(2) The Vanguard Brokerage Account Agreement contains a number of provisions that I won't agree to. The most important being:
(a) ¶6.f. I don't owe Vanguard any money, I never have, and I never will. I refuse to grant them a lien on my mutual fund shares.
(b) ¶6.i. I refuse to have my shares held in street name. I don't want brokerage commingling them with the shares of any other customers. I've paid for my shares in full; I'm entitled to unambiguous absolute ownership of them.
(c) ¶9.a. If I have a legal dispute with Vanguard, I refuse to allow New York law to apply. I live in California. Vanguard actively conducts business in California. The State of New York has absolutely no relationship to any of my dealings with Vanguard regarding my ownership of Vanguard shares. I expect California law to apply.
(d) ¶9.c. If a Vanguard employee is negligent or incompetent or careless and causes me serious loss, why should I hold Vanguard harmless for my damages? Vanguard says I can only recover if its behavior is so egregious that it amounts to "gross negligence" or "willful misconduct." Sorry -- don't buy it.
(e) ¶9.f. I'm forced to give up my right to sue in court, and instead I'm required to agree to predispute mandatory arbitration. No thanks. These are the kinds of adhesion contracts that big employers are using against employees, big health care providers are using against patients, big Wall Street firms are using against their customers. We're shareholders and owners of The Vanguard Group. We're entitled to more respect. Alas, the fading memory of John Bogle.
Good questions. No, I cannot answer questions with that much technical specificity. It's something that is so far outside of my day-to-day consideration as to have no impact to me, so I have not explored. NYCPete took a stab above.

I think another challenge is where are you going to move to find these certain fringe specifics of the old Vanguard platform, at least without making other compromises? Good luck. Sometimes industries and technologies change and it becomes difficult to have all your preferences met. I prefer a manual transmission, but most moderate quality and reasonably-priced practical vehicles no longer even offer this option in the US market. I settled for an automatic on last purchase. Still miss the manual sometimes, but I don't when I'm in stop-and-go traffic, and it still gets me where I need to go. I'd usually also rather take the plunge before it is forced on me to have some time to troubleshoot.
You said you can't answer questions with that much technical specificity but you also said folks, you aren't too old to change. Take the leap. The water's fine.

This seems to be cognitive dissonance.
I disagree that being honest that I can't answer a question represents some form of cognitive dissonance. I am more than willing to learn (and change?) if it is something I care about, but reading the account agreements line-by-line and finding faults in the legalese is not something I have chosen to devote time to, nor is it an area of personal interest or expertise. If the technicalities pointed out are such a huge deal to accept, then we're all screwed. For example, I don't envision any likely scenario where I would (1) need to, and (2) actually put forward the effort and capital required to sue Vanguard in court. It's ridiculous. What is the likelihood of this? I can't let such extreme fringe possibilities drive every decision I make in life.
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 11:40 pm
BigJohn wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 11:38 pm
palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:18 pm .
However, there may be a class action lawsuit against Vanguard if they go down this path.
Based on what? Did VG promise somewhere to provide the exact same service in perpetuity? I'm not saying it won't happen, people and lawyers get together with class action lawsuits on all sorts of marginal things. The only winners are the lawyers.

Please, if anyone here is so inclined, do us all a favor and just leave VG now for whatever greener pastures you can find.
Based on being forced to move to the brokerage platform, being forced to move to ETFs and being told that the "old" platform may experience "outages".

Being forced to allow NY law to apply when you are not governed by NY law.

Would you agree to these terms and conditions?
Again, no one is being forced to move to ETFs except clients of Vanguard Personal Advisor Services, which is an optional service where the relationship can be suspended at any time, and where you as a client agree to let Vanguard manage your accounts in a way that is most financially and strategically beneficial to you (according to them), whether or not you agree with their assessments. Moving to ETFs at Vanguard is generally not a taxable event. They are duty-bound to save you the most money. So what's the problem? If you don't like it, don't use PAS and continue to manage your mutual funds yourself. Most of the stated concerns about using ETFs seem moot if they are being professionally managed for you. And, ETFs also make it easier for you to jump ship to another asset manager as so many seem primed to do, over an arguably non-issue change.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by bling »

question for those who have done something similar before...

1) do you know whether fidelity and/or schwab accept vanguard mutual funds "in-kind"?
2) if not, when you liquidate, are you out of the market during this time? when i rolled over my old 401k to my new 401k they mailed me a check that i needed to mail out again, and i was out of the market for 2 weeks, something i definitely don't want happening again if i can avoid it.

yes, i can avoid it by doing a vanguard mutual fund account -> vanguard brokerage account -> ETF conversion -> fidelity/schwab....which is...ugh.....but if that's the only way then i'll do it.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by abuss368 »

palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 9:57 pm
abuss368 wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 10:59 pm
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sat May 16, 2020 4:39 pm Some folks are just being needlessly stubborn about this. Just do it for the common good and move on.
The more I read about it I am not so sure I see a big deal over the change.
Have you transitioned?
Not yet as I bought this week and wanted everything to go through. Considering possibly next week as we will have no choice soon. No plans to leave Vanguard either.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by abuss368 »

palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:02 pm
abuss368 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 2:26 pm I am surprised more Bogleheads are not being proactive with planning and transition to the new brokerage account platform.
Perhaps this is because they have transitioned one account and realized the downsides and issues with the brokerage platform.
Hard to say. Not so sure how it is different than other brokerage companies. Bogleheads will have to transition soon enough or consider leaving Vanguard.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by abuss368 »

palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:01 pm
abuss368 wrote: Mon May 18, 2020 11:18 am * Monthly account statements that will say "YTD" but are not true "YTD" statements. I think Vanguard is simply not going to offer a complete YTD statement again. I have been simplifying and as such are not going to retain, save, print, electronic, etc. statements any longer. In almost 30 years I have never had one request for any statement ever. And I refuse to save a monthly statement per account per month. In a couple of years that is going be be a huge and growing pile of files.
How is a year to date PDF statement simplifying? It takes not more compute to generate a year to date PDF than the monthly statements that a brokerage account provides.
Simplifying from our personal finance processes as we no longer download, print, or save statements. Previously I had printed for years and placed in binder. Ended up shredding that binder as I was not comfortable with that lying around the house. Started downloading to computer but was not comfortable with that on computer and cloud.

I figured in my entire lifetime of investing (over 25 - 30 years), I have never had one, not one, request or need for a statement. Years ago everything was paper. Today it is all online if needed.

Vanguard calculates any gains and losses and always has. I am not tracking basis or going back decades to check. If it looks reasonable, I go with it.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by abuss368 »

palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:06 pm
abuss368 wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:04 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:02 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:13 pm Perhaps this is an unfair assessment, but that's my take after months of reading these threads.

Folks, you aren't too old to change. Take the leap. The water's fine.
can you address staunchlydubious' issues (below). I had not even considered these reasons and am glad staunchlydubious posted them. I have seen no response to these in particular and think they deserve some responses other than merely poo-pooing those of us who have valid concerns.
(1) I insist in holding my Vanguard shares in my name as the direct registered owner. Under no circumstances will I allow my shares to be held in "street name" through Vanguard Brokerage Services.
(2) The Vanguard Brokerage Account Agreement contains a number of provisions that I won't agree to. The most important being:
(a) ¶6.f. I don't owe Vanguard any money, I never have, and I never will. I refuse to grant them a lien on my mutual fund shares.
(b) ¶6.i. I refuse to have my shares held in street name. I don't want brokerage commingling them with the shares of any other customers. I've paid for my shares in full; I'm entitled to unambiguous absolute ownership of them.
(c) ¶9.a. If I have a legal dispute with Vanguard, I refuse to allow New York law to apply. I live in California. Vanguard actively conducts business in California. The State of New York has absolutely no relationship to any of my dealings with Vanguard regarding my ownership of Vanguard shares. I expect California law to apply.
(d) ¶9.c. If a Vanguard employee is negligent or incompetent or careless and causes me serious loss, why should I hold Vanguard harmless for my damages? Vanguard says I can only recover if its behavior is so egregious that it amounts to "gross negligence" or "willful misconduct." Sorry -- don't buy it.
(e) ¶9.f. I'm forced to give up my right to sue in court, and instead I'm required to agree to predispute mandatory arbitration. No thanks. These are the kinds of adhesion contracts that big employers are using against employees, big health care providers are using against patients, big Wall Street firms are using against their customers. We're shareholders and owners of The Vanguard Group. We're entitled to more respect. Alas, the fading memory of John Bogle.
I did read that message upthread and was surprised. I can not see Vanguard modifying or making an exception to any of those issues.
LOL. But do you think these issues are reasonable?
Not so much from a standpoint of if it is reasonable or not, but rather what is the alternative if planning to stay with Vanguard? They are not going to change the account services agreement for anyone. If not happy one may have to leave Vanguard but is it any different than any other brokerages?
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

bling wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 7:37 am question for those who have done something similar before...

1) do you know whether fidelity and/or schwab accept vanguard mutual funds "in-kind"?
2) if not, when you liquidate, are you out of the market during this time? when i rolled over my old 401k to my new 401k they mailed me a check that i needed to mail out again, and i was out of the market for 2 weeks, something i definitely don't want happening again if i can avoid it.

yes, i can avoid it by doing a vanguard mutual fund account -> vanguard brokerage account -> ETF conversion -> fidelity/schwab....which is...ugh.....but if that's the only way then i'll do it.
I think they will accept Vanguard mutual funds, but then will likely charge you high fees per transaction to buy more or to sell.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by acegolfer »

Just transitioned. Took less than 1 day.

One hiccup: Since I already had a brokerage account, the transition ended up with 2 brokerage accounts. Had to call them to consolidate (move assets) into 1 account. If anyone in the same shoe, say "ownership" to get to the right department.

update: Consolidating 2 brokerage accounts into 1 account completed the next day.
Last edited by acegolfer on Fri May 22, 2020 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by jeffyscott »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 7:50 am
bling wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 7:37 am question for those who have done something similar before...

1) do you know whether fidelity and/or schwab accept vanguard mutual funds "in-kind"?
2) if not, when you liquidate, are you out of the market during this time? when i rolled over my old 401k to my new 401k they mailed me a check that i needed to mail out again, and i was out of the market for 2 weeks, something i definitely don't want happening again if i can avoid it.

yes, i can avoid it by doing a vanguard mutual fund account -> vanguard brokerage account -> ETF conversion -> fidelity/schwab....which is...ugh.....but if that's the only way then i'll do it.
I think they will accept Vanguard mutual funds, but then will likely charge you high fees per transaction to buy more or to sell.
They do not charge to sell, only to buy.

To transfer in-kind, I am pretty sure that the assets would have to be in a brokerage account at Vanguard, so you would have to make that transition first.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by sycamore »

palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:06 pm
abuss368 wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:04 am
arcticpineapplecorp. wrote: Tue May 19, 2020 8:02 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Sun May 17, 2020 12:13 pm Perhaps this is an unfair assessment, but that's my take after months of reading these threads.

Folks, you aren't too old to change. Take the leap. The water's fine.
can you address staunchlydubious' issues (below). I had not even considered these reasons and am glad staunchlydubious posted them. I have seen no response to these in particular and think they deserve some responses other than merely poo-pooing those of us who have valid concerns.
(1) I insist in holding my Vanguard shares in my name as the direct registered owner. Under no circumstances will I allow my shares to be held in "street name" through Vanguard Brokerage Services.
(2) The Vanguard Brokerage Account Agreement contains a number of provisions that I won't agree to. The most important being:
(a) ¶6.f. I don't owe Vanguard any money, I never have, and I never will. I refuse to grant them a lien on my mutual fund shares.
(b) ¶6.i. I refuse to have my shares held in street name. I don't want brokerage commingling them with the shares of any other customers. I've paid for my shares in full; I'm entitled to unambiguous absolute ownership of them.
(c) ¶9.a. If I have a legal dispute with Vanguard, I refuse to allow New York law to apply. I live in California. Vanguard actively conducts business in California. The State of New York has absolutely no relationship to any of my dealings with Vanguard regarding my ownership of Vanguard shares. I expect California law to apply.
(d) ¶9.c. If a Vanguard employee is negligent or incompetent or careless and causes me serious loss, why should I hold Vanguard harmless for my damages? Vanguard says I can only recover if its behavior is so egregious that it amounts to "gross negligence" or "willful misconduct." Sorry -- don't buy it.
(e) ¶9.f. I'm forced to give up my right to sue in court, and instead I'm required to agree to predispute mandatory arbitration. No thanks. These are the kinds of adhesion contracts that big employers are using against employees, big health care providers are using against patients, big Wall Street firms are using against their customers. We're shareholders and owners of The Vanguard Group. We're entitled to more respect. Alas, the fading memory of John Bogle.
I did read that message upthread and was surprised. I can not see Vanguard modifying or making an exception to any of those issues.
LOL. But do you think these issues are reasonable?
Those issues are common to many agreements with financial institutions that I've seen. For example, here are links to Fidelity's brokerage account agreement for retirement accounts and HSA accounts.

All of staunchlydubious' issues except the "street name" issue (1) and (2b) are also in Fidelity's agreements in one form or another.
(2a) See the section on Resolving Unpaid Obligations or Other Obligations. "Like many other securities brokers, we reserve the right to sell or otherwise use assets in an account to discharge any obligations the account owner(s) may have to us (including unmatured and contingent obligations), and to do so without further notice or demand." This sounds comparable to what staunchlydubious
(2c) Instead of New York law applying, it's Massachusetts law.
(2d) Look at the section on Indemnification.
(2e) Arbitration is how the disputes are resolved.

"Street name" is mentioned in the agreement but it doesn't say it's required. From what I recall, this is also common in the brokerage industry.

I don't know what the "old platform" Vanguard account agreement said about the above issues (I converted to the new platform several years ago and didn't keep the agreements). So I don't know whether those issues exist in the old platform or not - but my hunch is they do.

I'm not happy to agree to those things but it's a part of financial life nowadays. If you don't like those issues at Vanguard, I hear you, but you're going to encounter them at other brokerages too. If you can find one that doesn't, please share!

In short, I would not (and did not) let any of staunchlydubious' issues stop me from transitioning to Vanguard Brokerage Service. Most of the other issues with transitioning I found to be a minor issue. But I can see how people who, for example, like to redirect dividends to another fund would like to stay on the old platform. For them, stay as long as you can. Could be years before VG does anything "forceful" to encourage it.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Toons »

I upgraded taxable account
3 IRAs to brokerage about 6 months ago
Seamless,
No complaints.
Glad I did
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by jeffyscott »

Toons wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 9:24 am Glad I did
Why?
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by BigJohn »

sycamore wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 9:18 am.
I don't know what the "old platform" Vanguard account agreement said about the above issues (I converted to the new platform several years ago and didn't keep the agreements). So I don't know whether those issues exist in the old platform or not - but my hunch is they do.

I'm not happy to agree to those things but it's a part of financial life nowadays. If you don't like those issues at Vanguard, I hear you, but you're going to encounter them at other brokerages too. If you can find one that doesn't, please share!
I asked the same question about the MF account agreement above with the same hunch but have yet to hear from any of the staunch defenders of the status quo that our hunches are wrong.

I also agree that these are likely the same everywhere to which one persons solution was a more “flexible” private money manager. I have no idea if that’s even possible but I’m sure you won’t get it for a total expense cost of 0.10% or less. Rather than just complain, I’d love to see viable alternatives with costs. I’m betting that there are none or that the price is so high that these objections would quickly evaporate.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by abuss368 »

I just looked online and noticed the "transition" button is appearing under the new (couple of years) dashboard and not the old dashboard.

You click the button and it should work through the process. I will probably do soon.

Vanguard has changed back and forth between the old and new dashboard/account holdings screen over the years.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by anakinskywalker »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 2:54 pm This thread has taught me that being politely asked for nearly a decade to consider migrating to a platform of choice that maintains the vast majority of functionality to which I have become accustomed and stubbornly refusing to do so of my own free will equates to being treated like garbage. An interesting take on things.
I wasn't referring to Vanguard's conduct. They have been nothing but polite and professional so far.

I referred to the conduct demonstrated by yourself, Broken Man, and whoever else is actively and gleefully asking MF account users to leave Vanguard, and/or expressing what looks like joy about the fact that some of these folks may have to (say, due to large capital gains that some other folks have mentioned) take their Vanguard MFs and ETFs with them and hold them elsewhere, consuming brokerage services "elsewhere" while continuing to pay expense ratios to Vanguard.

Most of the BH community is known for generosity of spirit and doing the right thing, so gleefully asking people to leave Vanguard and hold their Vanguard MFs and ETFs elsewhere so your Vanguard brokerage usage can be subsidized by a basis point or two of the expense ratio revenue extracted from their investments, is in my opinion quite out of character, and frankly speaking and with all due respect, disgusting.

It's ironic that the folks you are saying this to -- the ones whose use of the MF platform you are accusing of increasing your Vanguard expense ratios -- are the long-term Vanguard customers of many decades' relationships with Vanguard, whose expense ratio payments over the decades made Vanguard what it is today, and also subsidized the creation of the "new" brokerage platform you are now so enthusiastically using. It's one thing to be focused on lowering costs and expense ratios -- which we are all in favor of --, but what I am seeing demonstrated is something quite different.

This conduct is quite unpleasant. In case you didn't know, telling people to their face that you're gleefully looking forward to seeing them gone is exactly the same as treating them like garbage.

I hope I have clarified matters for you.

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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by SmileyFace »

palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:20 pm
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:13 am Let's flip it around. What is YOUR reason NOT to move? If you don't have a strong reason not to, why not do it to assist with an obvious asset manager priority, be on the selected platform for the future, and generally be agreeable?
Because there are many downsides as shown in the posts above? This is a business relationship not a let's be agreeable with whatever Vanguard want to do.
Right now I auto-reinvest by funneling all the dividends/gains from all my MF's into a single MF (keeps me auto reinvesting without having too many tax lots for the funds I TLH). In one of the many threads on this topic someone said that with the brokerage account auto-reinvestment only allowed for re-investment in the same fund. Does anyone know if this has changed?
In any case - this is why I haven't moved over. Also- I've read about people getting these requests - today is the first time I ever got one myself from Vanguard.
Personally - I'm not crazy about the way the note I just received is worded. "We'll continue to support clients on this old platform until it's retired from use in 2022 or earlier. But know that some of the features you've used in the past may not be available as we make updates and changes in the future."
Tell me which features you are taking away versus this passive aggressive threat that I may lose some capabilities.
If I move to a brokerage - I may simplify things and consolidate into my Fidelity account.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Random Poster »

Cheez-It Guy wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:13 am Let's flip it around. What is YOUR reason NOT to move? If you don't have a strong reason not to, why not do it to assist with an obvious asset manager priority, be on the selected platform for the future, and generally be agreeable?
Personally, I like being able to have the interest/dividends from one fund be automatically deposited into another fund (say, from Total Bond to Total Stock, or from Total International to Tax-Exempt Money Market), without having to use any sort of settlement fund or manual intervention every month.

My understanding is that such an action (automatic deposit/transfer of interest/dividends from one fund to another) is not allowed on the brokerage platform.

Is my understanding incorrect?
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by sycamore »

DaftInvestor wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 12:41 pm ...
Right now I auto-reinvest by funneling all the dividends/gains from all my MF's into a single MF (keeps me auto reinvesting without having too many tax lots for the funds I TLH). In one of the many threads on this topic someone said that with the brokerage account auto-reinvestment only allowed for re-investment in the same fund. Does anyone know if this has changed?
It hasn't changed. Same options are: Reinvest, transfer to settlement fund, transfer to bank account, write me a check.

DaftInvestor wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 12:41 pm In any case - this is why I haven't moved over. Also- I've read about people getting these requests - today is the first time I ever got one myself from Vanguard.
Personally - I'm not crazy about the way the note I just received is worded. "We'll continue to support clients on this old platform until it's retired from use in 2022 or earlier. But know that some of the features you've used in the past may not be available as we make updates and changes in the future."
Tell me which features you are taking away versus this passive aggressive threat that I may lose some capabilities.
If I move to a brokerage - I may simplify things and consolidate into my Fidelity account.
I can imagine the person (or committee) who wrote the note intended to be strictly factual with no passive aggressive tones; they're trying to give a heads up. They could've worded it a better, IMO. At any rate, I also have an account at Fidelity and I'm happy with it. I don't know if Fidelity offers "direct dividends from fund X to fund Y" feature though.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

Random Poster wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:09 pm
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:13 am Let's flip it around. What is YOUR reason NOT to move? If you don't have a strong reason not to, why not do it to assist with an obvious asset manager priority, be on the selected platform for the future, and generally be agreeable?
Personally, I like being able to have the interest/dividends from one fund be automatically deposited into another fund (say, from Total Bond to Total Stock, or from Total International to Tax-Exempt Money Market), without having to use any sort of settlement fund or manual intervention every month.

My understanding is that such an action (automatic deposit/transfer of interest/dividends from one fund to another) is not allowed on the brokerage platform.

Is my understanding incorrect?
Your understanding is correct.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by SmileyFace »

sycamore wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:12 pm
DaftInvestor wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 12:41 pm ...
Right now I auto-reinvest by funneling all the dividends/gains from all my MF's into a single MF (keeps me auto reinvesting without having too many tax lots for the funds I TLH). In one of the many threads on this topic someone said that with the brokerage account auto-reinvestment only allowed for re-investment in the same fund. Does anyone know if this has changed?
It hasn't changed. Same options are: Reinvest, transfer to settlement fund, transfer to bank account, write me a check.

DaftInvestor wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 12:41 pm In any case - this is why I haven't moved over. Also- I've read about people getting these requests - today is the first time I ever got one myself from Vanguard.
Personally - I'm not crazy about the way the note I just received is worded. "We'll continue to support clients on this old platform until it's retired from use in 2022 or earlier. But know that some of the features you've used in the past may not be available as we make updates and changes in the future."
Tell me which features you are taking away versus this passive aggressive threat that I may lose some capabilities.
If I move to a brokerage - I may simplify things and consolidate into my Fidelity account.
I can imagine the person (or committee) who wrote the note intended to be strictly factual with no passive aggressive tones; they're trying to give a heads up. They could've worded it a better, IMO. At any rate, I also have an account at Fidelity and I'm happy with it. I don't know if Fidelity offers "direct dividends from fund X to fund Y" feature though.
Thanks for the info - not planning on switching since I don't want to lose the re-investment flexibility.
I realize I am probably reading too much into the note and also realize I may not get the cross-reinvestment with Fidelity either (but if I am going to lose it anyway it might be time to consolidate down my accounts).
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by abuss368 »

DaftInvestor wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 12:41 pm
palanzo wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 10:20 pm
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:13 am Let's flip it around. What is YOUR reason NOT to move? If you don't have a strong reason not to, why not do it to assist with an obvious asset manager priority, be on the selected platform for the future, and generally be agreeable?
Because there are many downsides as shown in the posts above? This is a business relationship not a let's be agreeable with whatever Vanguard want to do.
Right now I auto-reinvest by funneling all the dividends/gains from all my MF's into a single MF (keeps me auto reinvesting without having too many tax lots for the funds I TLH). In one of the many threads on this topic someone said that with the brokerage account auto-reinvestment only allowed for re-investment in the same fund. Does anyone know if this has changed?
In any case - this is why I haven't moved over. Also- I've read about people getting these requests - today is the first time I ever got one myself from Vanguard.
Personally - I'm not crazy about the way the note I just received is worded. "We'll continue to support clients on this old platform until it's retired from use in 2022 or earlier. But know that some of the features you've used in the past may not be available as we make updates and changes in the future."
Tell me which features you are taking away versus this passive aggressive threat that I may lose some capabilities.
If I move to a brokerage - I may simplify things and consolidate into my Fidelity account.
Correct as that is my understanding as well when I called Vanguard to discuss. For us personally this is a nonissue as we reinvest back into same fund. You may have to have credited to money market and then go from there.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by abuss368 »

DaftInvestor wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 12:41 pm "We'll continue to support clients on this old platform until it's retired from use in 2022 or earlier. But know that some of the features you've used in the past may not be available as we make updates and changes in the future."
This is what I was told when I called Vanguard. They also mentioned as we move forward here over the next year or two they may stop some functionality or features over this time period.

I am probably just transitioning the accounts and be done with it.
Last edited by abuss368 on Fri May 22, 2020 3:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Broken Man 1999 »

anakinskywalker wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 11:24 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 2:54 pm This thread has taught me that being politely asked for nearly a decade to consider migrating to a platform of choice that maintains the vast majority of functionality to which I have become accustomed and stubbornly refusing to do so of my own free will equates to being treated like garbage. An interesting take on things.
I wasn't referring to Vanguard's conduct. They have been nothing but polite and professional so far.

I referred to the conduct demonstrated by yourself, Broken Man, and whoever else is actively and gleefully asking MF account users to leave Vanguard, and/or expressing what looks like joy about the fact that some of these folks may have to (say, due to large capital gains that some other folks have mentioned) take their Vanguard MFs and ETFs with them and hold them elsewhere, consuming brokerage services "elsewhere" while continuing to pay expense ratios to Vanguard.

Most of the BH community is known for generosity of spirit and doing the right thing, so gleefully asking people to leave Vanguard and hold their Vanguard MFs and ETFs elsewhere so your Vanguard brokerage usage can be subsidized by a basis point or two of the expense ratio revenue extracted from their investments, is in my opinion quite out of character, and frankly speaking and with all due respect, disgusting.

It's ironic that the folks you are saying this to -- the ones whose use of the MF platform you are accusing of increasing your Vanguard expense ratios -- are the long-term Vanguard customers of many decades' relationships with Vanguard, whose expense ratio payments over the decades made Vanguard what it is today, and also subsidized the creation of the "new" brokerage platform you are now so enthusiastically using. It's one thing to be focused on lowering costs and expense ratios -- which we are all in favor of --, but what I am seeing demonstrated is something quite different.

This conduct is quite unpleasant. In case you didn't know, telling people to their face that you're gleefully looking forward to seeing them gone is exactly the same as treating them like garbage.

I hope I have clarified matters for you.

Anakin
Gleeful? No, not at all. I would have to care, to be gleeful.

I just pointed out, as others have many times as well, you can hold Vanguard products at other companies and perhaps be happier with the services you receive. Seems that would be a win for you, and a win for Vanguard. Or, you can hold your Vanguard products at Vanguard and be unhappy when you are forced to make the change. It does seem as though the change at some point in time will be mandatory. The platform change is just as mandatory as having my Vanguard annuity transitioned to the insurance company for some account management functions sometime this year. I'm not gleeful about that change either, though I do care as it affects me. Life goes on.

I hope I have clarified matters for you.

Broken Man 1999
“If I cannot drink Bourbon and smoke cigars in Heaven then I shall not go. " -Mark Twain
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Cheez-It Guy
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

anakinskywalker wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 11:24 am
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 2:54 pm This thread has taught me that being politely asked for nearly a decade to consider migrating to a platform of choice that maintains the vast majority of functionality to which I have become accustomed and stubbornly refusing to do so of my own free will equates to being treated like garbage. An interesting take on things.
I wasn't referring to Vanguard's conduct. They have been nothing but polite and professional so far.

I referred to the conduct demonstrated by yourself, Broken Man, and whoever else is actively and gleefully asking MF account users to leave Vanguard, and/or expressing what looks like joy about the fact that some of these folks may have to (say, due to large capital gains that some other folks have mentioned) take their Vanguard MFs and ETFs with them and hold them elsewhere, consuming brokerage services "elsewhere" while continuing to pay expense ratios to Vanguard.

Most of the BH community is known for generosity of spirit and doing the right thing, so gleefully asking people to leave Vanguard and hold their Vanguard MFs and ETFs elsewhere so your Vanguard brokerage usage can be subsidized by a basis point or two of the expense ratio revenue extracted from their investments, is in my opinion quite out of character, and frankly speaking and with all due respect, disgusting.

It's ironic that the folks you are saying this to -- the ones whose use of the MF platform you are accusing of increasing your Vanguard expense ratios -- are the long-term Vanguard customers of many decades' relationships with Vanguard, whose expense ratio payments over the decades made Vanguard what it is today, and also subsidized the creation of the "new" brokerage platform you are now so enthusiastically using. It's one thing to be focused on lowering costs and expense ratios -- which we are all in favor of --, but what I am seeing demonstrated is something quite different.

This conduct is quite unpleasant. In case you didn't know, telling people to their face that you're gleefully looking forward to seeing them gone is exactly the same as treating them like garbage.

I hope I have clarified matters for you.

Anakin
Personalizing this already got another thread locked. Do you know how long I've been a Vanguard client? What about the other people you mentioned? I started on the mutual fund platform same as you. It was fine. The new platform is also fine. A huge percentage of my overall holdings remain in Vanguard mutual funds.

I'm not trying to attack you or anyone else, and I'm sorry that this is the way it's been interpreted. I simply have not heard a compelling argument for complete lack of willingness to migrate to the new platform, but there has been plentiful misinformation and general fear of the unknown expressed. So one of the functions of this thread should be to correct misunderstandings or shed light on the unknowns.

What capital gains are you talking about? Migration to the new platform is not a taxable event. You maintain your mutual funds and your original cost basis information post-migration. I would like to hear of any valid alternatives. It doesn't give me glee that anyone sees fit to leave a company that has served them well over something so trivial. However, I do marvel at this reaction. Vanguard isn't forcing you to leave them. If you do that, you're making the decision. And if you think leaving is going to teach them a lesson, you are wrong. Even what most would consider large accounts are trivially small and essentially meaningless at the asset levels Vanguard currently manages.

The whole argument is beyond ridiculous at this point.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Cheez-It Guy »

palanzo wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:23 pm
Random Poster wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 1:09 pm
Cheez-It Guy wrote: Wed May 20, 2020 7:13 am Let's flip it around. What is YOUR reason NOT to move? If you don't have a strong reason not to, why not do it to assist with an obvious asset manager priority, be on the selected platform for the future, and generally be agreeable?
Personally, I like being able to have the interest/dividends from one fund be automatically deposited into another fund (say, from Total Bond to Total Stock, or from Total International to Tax-Exempt Money Market), without having to use any sort of settlement fund or manual intervention every month.

My understanding is that such an action (automatic deposit/transfer of interest/dividends from one fund to another) is not allowed on the brokerage platform.

Is my understanding incorrect?
Your understanding is correct.
Yes, it's correct, and if this is a deal-breaker function for you, then that's one of the objections that I would consider valid. And personally, I wish Vanguard would add this functionality back for mutual funds on the new platform. You can probably still mostly automate this by combining dividend redemption to settlement fund or external bank account with an automatic investment plan into the mutual fund of choice. This assumes the dividend schedule and amount is reasonably predictable.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Nate79 »

It's one thing to complain about a transition (about 4 pages worth) but I hope everyone is now creating a plan for how to deal with the platform that will be ending. You either change now (and get used to the minor inconveniences) or hold out and make it more and more painful on yourself to where eventually you will convert or move one way or another. There are some legitimate issues for people in the financial industry who will have some issues transferring to a brokerage that is compliant with their companies monitoring rules. But for the other minor complaints I would get used to them or move somewhere else (like we did a few years ago).

Maybe people just want to vent but it doesn't change the fact that Vanguard is closing the mutual fund platform.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

Nate79 wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:11 pm It's one thing to complain about a transition (about 4 pages worth) but I hope everyone is now creating a plan for how to deal with the platform that will be ending. You either change now (and get used to the minor inconveniences) or hold out and make it more and more painful on yourself to where eventually you will convert or move one way or another. There are some legitimate issues for people in the financial industry who will have some issues transferring to a brokerage that is compliant with their companies monitoring rules. But for the other minor complaints I would get used to them or move somewhere else (like we did a few years ago).

Maybe people just want to vent but it doesn't change the fact that Vanguard is closing the mutual fund platform.
Except that Vanguard cannot move mutual funds and their registration without the owners permission.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by Nate79 »

palanzo wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:20 pm
Nate79 wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:11 pm It's one thing to complain about a transition (about 4 pages worth) but I hope everyone is now creating a plan for how to deal with the platform that will be ending. You either change now (and get used to the minor inconveniences) or hold out and make it more and more painful on yourself to where eventually you will convert or move one way or another. There are some legitimate issues for people in the financial industry who will have some issues transferring to a brokerage that is compliant with their companies monitoring rules. But for the other minor complaints I would get used to them or move somewhere else (like we did a few years ago).

Maybe people just want to vent but it doesn't change the fact that Vanguard is closing the mutual fund platform.
Except that Vanguard cannot move mutual funds and their registration without the owners permission.
I didn't say that Vanguard will move you. But you will move one way or another or else lose all functionality such that you will want to move.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by palanzo »

Nate79 wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:27 pm
palanzo wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:20 pm
Nate79 wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:11 pm It's one thing to complain about a transition (about 4 pages worth) but I hope everyone is now creating a plan for how to deal with the platform that will be ending. You either change now (and get used to the minor inconveniences) or hold out and make it more and more painful on yourself to where eventually you will convert or move one way or another. There are some legitimate issues for people in the financial industry who will have some issues transferring to a brokerage that is compliant with their companies monitoring rules. But for the other minor complaints I would get used to them or move somewhere else (like we did a few years ago).

Maybe people just want to vent but it doesn't change the fact that Vanguard is closing the mutual fund platform.
Except that Vanguard cannot move mutual funds and their registration without the owners permission.
I didn't say that Vanguard will move you. But you will move one way or another or else lose all functionality such that you will want to move.
I know you didn't say that. I mean that Vanguard may not be able to close the mutual fund platform if people do not give permission to move their funds.
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Re: Vanguard brokerage account transition

Post by rkhusky »

Nate79 wrote: Thu May 21, 2020 2:27 pm
I didn't say that Vanguard will move you. But you will move one way or another or else lose all functionality such that you will want to move.
When Vanguard makes things too expensive or uncomfortable for the mutual fund accounts, we’ll move over. We already have 1 brokerage account. But they have not done so yet.

If Vanguard offered us $100, we’d probably switch.
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