Cryptocurrency

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rafkg29
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Cryptocurrency

Post by rafkg29 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:18 pm

Why do people still invest in crypto currencies? Is there still potential in this field?

sd323232
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by sd323232 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:34 pm

Considering that crypto is based on blockchain technology, cryptos are the future.

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Nate79
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by Nate79 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:14 pm

LOL. Why all the sudden we are getting crypto threads? Perhaps the lesson wasn't learned the first time?

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by z3r0c00l » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:21 pm

They may think it is the future, or they may think they will find a next greater fool. Either way, it is a bubble for certain, and the risk is not worth the reward.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by BoggledHead2 » Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:28 pm

Big banks, SEC, treasury will not let "crypto"ever actually be a thing. It's a stupid idea that became a fomo-fueled trend and inevitably burst in people's faces ... blockchain technology? Ok I'll listen. Cryptocurrency? Absolute BS.

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David Jay
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by David Jay » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:44 pm

sd323232 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:34 pm
Considering that crypto is based on blockchain technology, cryptos are the future.
You need to separate the two to properly understand:
1. Blockchain is the future of secure transactions, see thread on Vanguard’s use of blockchain here: viewtopic.php?t=234444
2. Crypto will never replace government-backed currency because governments make the laws.
Prediction is very difficult, especially about the future - Niels Bohr | To get the "risk premium", you really do have to take the risk - nisiprius

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by danielc » Tue Jan 15, 2019 9:45 pm


nullbytes
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by nullbytes » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:02 am

bit of a luddite attitude in here.... crypto currency will be the future of currency (remind yourself to come here in 15 years).

Bitcoin solved a major hurdle of having trust a trust-less system. Paper money can be lost, destroyed and is hard to track. It may not be an existing "coin" but governments will eventually move to crypto. Doesn't mean they'll be an investable asset though. That part is a wait and see.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by Valuethinker » Wed Jan 16, 2019 4:31 am

rafkg29 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:18 pm
Why do people still invest in crypto currencies? Is there still potential in this field?
When bitcoin soared to $20k there was a flurry of posts here.

Go and read those threads and compare them to what the actual outcome was.

You will find, I think, that there is a basis for the scepticism here. It was an invented asset class.

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queso
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by queso » Wed Jan 16, 2019 8:11 am

Nate79 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 7:14 pm
LOL. Why all the sudden we are getting crypto threads? Perhaps the lesson wasn't learned the first time?
Hah.. I was thinking the same thing when scrolling down the main page. "Why, all of a sudden, are there several crypto threads again?". I didn't notice a big crypto jump lately (a little noise maybe..) so what has driven the horde back to BH? Did Dogecoin fork or something?

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by newtothiswhat » Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:41 am

Hi everyone, new here. Have used the search function but couldn't get my answer. Rather than create a new thread would like to just add on from here.

Wanted to know what the bogleheads general view of investing in cryptocurrencies is?

The prices have been falling so heavily over the past year. Is it a good time to enter?

Thanks.

HippoSir
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by HippoSir » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:22 pm

newtothiswhat wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:41 am
Hi everyone, new here. Have used the search function but couldn't get my answer. Rather than create a new thread would like to just add on from here.

Wanted to know what the bogleheads general view of investing in cryptocurrencies is?

The prices have been falling so heavily over the past year. Is it a good time to enter?

Thanks.
Cryptocurrencies rely on ever more suckers buying in to increase in value. It has no inherent value or return generating capability.

Right now miners are trying to dump currency as quickly as they can without crashing the market, but trading volume is low so they're having trouble. I think blockchain has value, but the current cryptocurrencies themselves are dead in the water and going to continue falling. I would avoid.

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Nate79
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by Nate79 » Sat Jan 26, 2019 1:56 pm

newtothiswhat wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:41 am
Hi everyone, new here. Have used the search function but couldn't get my answer. Rather than create a new thread would like to just add on from here.

Wanted to know what the bogleheads general view of investing in cryptocurrencies is?

The prices have been falling so heavily over the past year. Is it a good time to enter?

Thanks.
Are you sure you read all the other crypto threads on here? The consensus on these near scam products are pretty clear.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by pasadena » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:22 pm

sd323232 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 6:34 pm
Considering that crypto is based on blockchain technology, cryptos are the future.
Blockchain might very well be, but that doesn't mean that cryptocurrencies are. They're just one application of blockchain (the first one).

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:30 pm

nullbytes wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:02 am
Bitcoin solved a major hurdle of having trust a trust-less system. Paper money can be lost, destroyed and is hard to track. It may not be an existing "coin" but governments will eventually move to crypto. Doesn't mean they'll be an investable asset though. That part is a wait and see.
plenty of crypto has been stolen:
https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... Vf_QG5eM-o

and lost:

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... 9hnvsW0iQU

So I'm not seeing where the "trust" is.

I don't see why government will eventually move to crypto. Most money is electronic anyway. But governments can strengthen or weaken their currencies as they need to (do deal with inflation/deflation). Why would they voluntarily give up that sovereignty? Can't do that with crypto by yourself...that is, unless you own most of it and are manipulating the price of bitcoin. But that's never happened right? (bloomberg article, nearly half of all bitcoin is owned by 1000 people):

https://www.google.com/search?client=fi ... 000+people

And some cryptos now are being pegged to an actual currency (like Tether). Other cryptos aren't actually "tethered" but why would I buy a cryptocurrency that is tied to another real currency when I could just buy that other real currency itself(and avoid the middleman, expensive commissions on exchange, etc)? Seems redundant and unnecessary. And if the argument is that fiat money is being debased by governments and crypto will increase in value over time because of a limited supply (21 million in the case of bitcoin, but that is subject to change) why would I want to buy a crypto that's tied to a real currency I am trying to get away from because of fear of debasement? The whole argument makes no sense.
Last edited by arcticpineapplecorp. on Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:37 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:32 pm

newtothiswhat wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:41 am

The prices have been falling so heavily over the past year. Is it a good time to enter?
what do you think it's worth? What "should" the price be? When do you plan to sell it? What do think you "should" sell it for? How are you coming up with these valuations?

If you don't know what its true value is, then are you getting a fair price now or unfair price? If you don't know, are you investing or speculating? Do you know the difference?
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sat Jan 26, 2019 2:33 pm

rafkg29 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:18 pm
Why do people still invest in crypto currencies? Is there still potential in this field?
they aren't investing. They're speculating. Know the difference. Most don't because they think they're investing when they're not.
"May you live as long as you want and never want as long as you live" -- Irish Blessing | "Invest we must" -- Jack Bogle

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by nisiprius » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:10 pm

Regardless of everything else, can we have a consensus agreement among cryptocurrency fans and skeptics alike that, whatever the big picture,

...in December 2017 bitcoin was in a bubble?

Image

It may or may not reach higher peaks, it may or may not be superseded by some better cryptocurrency, anybody wise or fortunate enough to buy bitcoin before 2017 can make a large potential profit by selling today, the Winklevoss COIN ETF may come to fruition after all... whatever... but, what we were seeing in December 2017 was a bubble?
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

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arcticpineapplecorp.
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by arcticpineapplecorp. » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:28 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:10 pm
Regardless of everything else, can we have a consensus agreement among cryptocurrency fans and skeptics alike that, whatever the big picture,

...in December 2017 bitcoin was in a bubble?

Image

It may or may not reach higher peaks, it may or may not be superseded by some better cryptocurrency, anybody wise or fortunate enough to buy bitcoin before 2017 can make a large potential profit by selling today, the Winklevoss COIN ETF may come to fruition after all... whatever... but, what we were seeing in December 2017 was a bubble?
not if Bitcoin gets to $1,000,000 by 2020 as John McAfee famously predicted:

https://bircoin.top/
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by Davinci » Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:33 pm

Why do people still invest in crypto currencies? Is there still potential in this field?
Because most people need instant gratification and believe that they can become instant millionaires with crypto, swing trading on hot stocks, buying the next Apple IPO, pyramid schemes, etc..
" Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication" Leonardo Da Vinci.

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Spinola
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by Spinola » Sat Jan 26, 2019 4:33 pm

Isn't the motto on Bitcoins "There's one born every nanosecond" ? 🤣

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by nisiprius » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:07 pm

To be fair (though what fun is that?) it was hard to be so casually dismissive of Bitcoin back when the chart looked like this:

Image
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by Epsilon Delta » Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:47 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 5:07 pm
To be fair (though what fun is that?) it was hard to be so casually dismissive of Bitcoin back when the chart looked like this:

See above ^^^^
It was very easy to be dismissive when the chart looked like that. Though you did have to put up with a lot of people telling you you were an idiot. Now they just call you a Luddite. I suppose that's progress.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by pokebowl » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:06 pm

rafkg29 wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 5:18 pm
Why do people still invest in crypto currencies? Is there still potential in this field?
I opened a Robinhood (RH) account to try it out, apparently they provide you one random stock share as a "thank you" when you register. I was "gifted" $10 in some unheard of game design company. I intentionally sold it at a slight loss and moved the rest into Dogecoin via the RH app. It could go up or into the earth's core for that matter but its fun now to admit I hold a couple thousand meme coins. Well technically RH bought it, I just hold for the laughs. :wink:
Nullius in verba.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by am » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:16 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:10 pm
Regardless of everything else, can we have a consensus agreement among cryptocurrency fans and skeptics alike that, whatever the big picture,

...in December 2017 bitcoin was in a bubble?

Image

It may or may not reach higher peaks, it may or may not be superseded by some better cryptocurrency, anybody wise or fortunate enough to buy bitcoin before 2017 can make a large potential profit by selling today, the Winklevoss COIN ETF may come to fruition after all... whatever... but, what we were seeing in December 2017 was a bubble?
Bitcoins trading range is incredibly narrow right now. It’s been around for years. Maybe this is here to stay? Would’ve figured that if it’s truly worthless, than it would have reached the end by now.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by ohai » Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:49 pm

Bitcoin is not lower simply because not enough Bitcoin owners are willing to sell below a certain level. Ownership is highly concentrated in this cryptocurrency and others - I believe some 1000 addresses own 98% or so of Bitcoins. All of these owners have an obvious interest in not driving down the price of Bitcoin. At the same time, volumes are decreasing. So the role of liquidity in establishing prices is also diminishing.

The price dynamic we can see in Bitcoin has been relatively stable support levels, followed by a sudden precipitous decline, ending in a lower relatively persistent support level. In my view, these levels represent psychological plateaus reinforced by concentrated holders of Bitcoin, whose actions primarily determine the price of the currency. These prices are not driven by any fundamental reason. Nothing has really changed over the past year that fundamentally changed the price of Bitcoin from $9k to $6k to $3k.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by avbferry » Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:14 pm

newtothiswhat wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 12:41 am
Hi everyone, new here. Have used the search function but couldn't get my answer. Rather than create a new thread would like to just add on from here.

Wanted to know what the bogleheads general view of investing in cryptocurrencies is?

The prices have been falling so heavily over the past year. Is it a good time to enter?

Thanks.
If you do indeed want to invest despite the advice given on this forum. Do read up plenty about security. In other words, how to protect your funds. There is simply so many areas where users have lost their funds.
- Leaving money on exchanges which then get hacked
- Using a wallet that gets attacked
- Following instructional videos on claiming free tokens and end up giving up their private keys
- Falling for twitter scams

Lol! I never dared go anywhere near crypto because of all these. May consider a Bitcoin ETF when it comes out? Haven't been around in a while and not sure what is the boglehead's view on this. Also, do take note that the vast majority of the people who made ALOT of money were early investors. If you are going in at this stage expecting to make their kind of returns, good luck sifting through one of the 1000s of shitcoins.
Last edited by avbferry on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by tadamsmar » Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:59 am

“Successful investing is about owning businesses and reaping the huge rewards provided by the dividends and earnings growth of our nation’s – and, for that matter, the world’s – corporations.
— John C. Bogle

Bogleheads don't try to use every method that could possibly earn money, they are trying to squeeze the risk out of a positive sum game. Speculation just shifts returns from one investor to another and direct investing in bitcoin is a pure form of shifting returns around less some fees. Not sure about the whole universe of cryptos, some may be backed by something of value.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by nisiprius » Sun Jan 27, 2019 6:46 am

tadamsmar wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:59 am
...Bogleheads don't try to use every method that could possibly earn money, they are trying to squeeze the risk out of a positive sum game...
Well said! And I'm not sure I've heard it said before, and it should be said frequently.
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by Crushtheturtle » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:58 am

tadamsmar wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:59 am
“Successful investing is about owning businesses and reaping the huge rewards provided by the dividends and earnings growth of our nation’s – and, for that matter, the world’s – corporations.
— John C. Bogle
Great quote, worthy of inclusion in my IPS.

As an aside, I wonder if this is why Mr Bogle favored a greater tilt toward Corporate bonds than that already included in a Total Market bond fund.
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by BoggledHead2 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:06 am

A Bitcoin is a valueless line of coding, the modern day beanie baby “investment”

It’s “value” skyrocketed because stupid/naive people saw it rise in headlines and saw it as “the future”, as if it were synonymous with blockchain technology

It isn’t. A Bitcoin is nothing. It is worth nothing.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by Dottie57 » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:31 am

BoggledHead2 wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:06 am
A Bitcoin is a valueless line of coding, the modern day beanie baby “investment”

It’s “value” skyrocketed because stupid/naive people saw it rise in headlines and saw it as “the future”, as if it were synonymous with blockchain technology

It isn’t. A Bitcoin is nothing. It is worth nothing.
At least with buying beanie babies you had a beanie baby. What do you have with bitcoin?

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by nisiprius » Sun Jan 27, 2019 11:45 am

BoggledHead2 wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:06 am
...A Bitcoin is a valueless line of coding, the modern day beanie baby “investment”...
I'm about as skeptical about bitcoin as it is possible to be, but I don't accept that line of reasoning.

On the one hand, what is the apparent value of any kind of intellectual or intangible property? Why should a Stephen King novel be worth something, it's just a valueless string of text? Why should a patent be worth something? A champion racehorse?

"Being based on something real" isn't the key. The Florida land boom was based on something perfectly real, and widely regarded as valuable--that is to say, land. Or on binders giving you the right to buy land, or... something. The problem with the Florida land boom was fraud, speculation, and bubble mentality. It was all backed by land, but overall, what it mostly did was transfer wealth from suckers to con artists.

Actual currency, together with laws and writing and so forth, is amazing. It is a way that we can make reliable promises over periods of half a lifetime. Even more amazingly, promises that may need to be kept by a different person from the person who made it. Even more amazingly, promises between people thousands of miles apart who have never met each other and have no real reason to personally trust each other. "You scratch my back and I'll scratch yours" is a five-minute promise, and even it depends on personal trust in the other. "You scratch my back now, and I'll give you a piece of paper that will convince someone else to scratch your back thirty years from now," that's a triumph of civilization.

It is difficult to assess the claims for bitcoin because of they are constantly shifting and different advocates say different things. Traditional currency, as I said, is valuable because it lets people make reliable promises to each other across time and space, but it does incur certain restrictions--people do not need to know each other personally but they need to know each others' identity so that e.g. lawsuits can be brought, and they need to trust government treasuries and central banks and so forth. The claim made for bitcoin was that it could do everything currency did without requiring disclosure of personal identity and without requiring trust in any government's monetary management. If it could actually do that, it certainly would be valuable. At one point it was widely asserted that bitcoin would displace credit cards because it had or was going to have far lower transaction costs. If that had been true, it would have been valuable.

The problem with bitcoin isn't that it is a "valueless line of coding," it is that bitcoin doesn't do the things its advocates said it would do... and that, like the Florida land boom, it has all the appearance of being mostly a means of transferring wealth from suckers to con artists.
Last edited by nisiprius on Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by tadamsmar » Sun Jan 27, 2019 1:34 pm

Crushtheturtle wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:58 am
tadamsmar wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 5:59 am
“Successful investing is about owning businesses and reaping the huge rewards provided by the dividends and earnings growth of our nation’s – and, for that matter, the world’s – corporations.
— John C. Bogle
Great quote, worthy of inclusion in my IPS.

As an aside, I wonder if this is why Mr Bogle favored a greater tilt toward Corporate bonds than that already included in a Total Market bond fund.
I think that impression is due to the limited nature of that particular quote. Here is another quote on the source of investing returns:

“for the stock market, corporate earnings and dividends; for the bond market, interest payments. Market returns, however, are calculated before the deduction of the costs of investing, and are most assuredly not based on speculation and rapid trading, which do nothing but shift returns from one investor to another. For the long-term investor, returns have everything to do with the underlying economics of corporate America and very little to do with the mechanical process of buying and selling pieces of paper. The art of investing in mutual funds, I would argue, rests on simplicity and common sense.”
— John C. Bogle

https://financinglife.org/bogle-quotes/

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by newtothiswhat » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:48 pm

Thanks alot for the insights. Would try to steer clear of it. But do you guys really not put maybe 1% of your wealth into it? This stuff offers assymetric payoff.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by knpstr » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:54 pm

nullbytes wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:02 am
Bitcoin solved a major hurdle of having trust a trust-less system.
This comment sparked my memory:
Charlie Munger once said "The highest reach of civilization is a seamless system of trust among all parties concerned."

Now Munger HATES Bitcoin (the cryptocurrency) and thinks as it stands it is even immoral. However the blockchain may actually provide a means to advance society to the "highest reach".

Of course, his idea states "trust" where as the blockchain promotes "trust-less" and I guess when you think about it the two are not equivalent.
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by bberris » Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:58 pm

newtothiswhat wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:48 pm
Thanks alot for the insights. Would try to steer clear of it. But do you guys really not put maybe 1% of your wealth into it? This stuff offers assymetric payoff.
There's even greater "assymetry" in playing the lottery. Butt I don't think I can get behind that.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by z3r0c00l » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:21 pm

am wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 6:16 pm
nisiprius wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 3:10 pm
Regardless of everything else, can we have a consensus agreement among cryptocurrency fans and skeptics alike that, whatever the big picture,

...in December 2017 bitcoin was in a bubble?

Image

It may or may not reach higher peaks, it may or may not be superseded by some better cryptocurrency, anybody wise or fortunate enough to buy bitcoin before 2017 can make a large potential profit by selling today, the Winklevoss COIN ETF may come to fruition after all... whatever... but, what we were seeing in December 2017 was a bubble?
Bitcoins trading range is incredibly narrow right now. It’s been around for years. Maybe this is here to stay? Would’ve figured that if it’s truly worthless, than it would have reached the end by now.
That about describes the South Sea Company stock in 1722. With the bubble behind them, stock holders could take comfort in the fact that the now depressed price had not gone to zero, and was actually rather stable at 75 pounds sterling.
Last edited by z3r0c00l on Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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nisiprius
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by nisiprius » Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:22 pm

newtothiswhat wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:48 pm
Thanks a lot for the insights. Would try to steer clear of it. But do you guys really not put maybe 1% of your wealth into it? This stuff offers assymetric payoff.
I can't speak for anybody else. I really don't put 1% of my wealth into it.

Don't forget, this is "Investing Advice Inspired by Jack Bogle."
Avoid bitcoin like the plague. Did I make myself clear?

--John C. Bogle, 29 Nov 2017
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by aspirit » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:18 pm

Crypto? a currency?
Some suspect President A.Jackson(1829), A.Lincoln(1865), as well as J.Kennedy(1962) and others were assassinated by banking cartels for attempting to reestablish another usa currency paradigm removing the FED. All three Presidents above were in the process of establishing a usa "greenback", BKennedy pursued it too.

Current wealth providers retain their well compensated position.
Time & tides wait for no one. A man has to know his limitations. | "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" | — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild ~

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fortfun
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by fortfun » Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:46 pm

newtothiswhat wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:48 pm
Thanks alot for the insights. Would try to steer clear of it. But do you guys really not put maybe 1% of your wealth into it? This stuff offers assymetric payoff.
Did you read this post that was shared earlier?
http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2018/01/ ... is-stupid/

Should answer your question.

newtothiswhat
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by newtothiswhat » Mon Jan 28, 2019 1:20 am

bberris wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:58 pm
There's even greater "assymetry" in playing the lottery. Butt I don't think I can get behind that.
Haha! This made me laugh out out.
nisiprius wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 9:22 pm
newtothiswhat wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 8:48 pm
Thanks a lot for the insights. Would try to steer clear of it. But do you guys really not put maybe 1% of your wealth into it? This stuff offers assymetric payoff.
I can't speak for anybody else. I really don't put 1% of my wealth into it.

Don't forget, this is "Investing Advice Inspired by Jack Bogle."
Avoid bitcoin like the plague. Did I make myself clear?

--John C. Bogle, 29 Nov 2017
Thanks for making it so clear. Understood and would avoid.
avbferry wrote:
Sat Jan 26, 2019 11:14 pm

If you do indeed want to invest despite the advice given on this forum. Do read up plenty about security. In other words, how to protect your funds. There is simply so many areas where users have lost their funds.
- Leaving money on exchanges which then get hacked
- Using a wallet that gets attacked
- Following instructional videos on claiming free tokens and end up giving up their private keys
- Falling for twitter scams

Lol! I never dared go anywhere near crypto because of all these. May consider a Bitcoin ETF when it comes out? Haven't been around in a while and not sure what is the boglehead's view on this. Also, do take note that the vast majority of the people who made ALOT of money were early investors. If you are going in at this stage expecting to make their kind of returns, good luck sifting through one of the 1000s of shitcoins.
Yeap thanks, have done some reading on my end and felt that it wasn't worth the effort. For those wondering, this site provides pretty good guides on cryptocurrency security.
Last edited by newtothiswhat on Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

One Meatball
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by One Meatball » Mon Jan 28, 2019 2:18 am

I have no opinion on the subject but last week a bill was introduced in the New Hampshire legislature "Allowing state agencies to accept cryptocurrencies as payment".

Link: https://legiscan.com/NH/text/HB470/2019

I doubt that the bill will pass.
Growing old is mandatory, growing up is optional.

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nisiprius
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by nisiprius » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:29 am

aspirit wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:18 pm
...Some suspect President A.Jackson(1829), A.Lincoln(1865), as well as J.Kennedy(1962) and others were assassinated by banking cartels for attempting to reestablish another usa currency paradigm removing the FED...
That's especially creepy when you consider that the Fed was created in 1913.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

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aspirit
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by aspirit » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:44 am

nisiprius wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:29 am
aspirit wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:18 pm
...Some suspect President A.Jackson(1829), A.Lincoln(1865), as well as J.Kennedy(1962) and others were assassinated by banking cartels for attempting to reestablish another usa currency paradigm removing the FED...
That's especially creepy when you consider that the Fed was created in 1913.
My understanding of the FED Is a concentrated sector of macro-worldly banking, macro-currency providing market making arbitrators dating back to well before WWI. :happy at least that’s my understanding.
Time & tides wait for no one. A man has to know his limitations. | "Give me control of a nation's money and I care not who makes it's laws" | — Mayer Amschel Bauer Rothschild ~

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nisiprius
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by nisiprius » Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:57 am

aspirit wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:44 am
nisiprius wrote:
Mon Jan 28, 2019 6:29 am
aspirit wrote:
Sun Jan 27, 2019 10:18 pm
...Some suspect President A.Jackson(1829), A.Lincoln(1865), as well as J.Kennedy(1962) and others were assassinated by banking cartels for attempting to reestablish another usa currency paradigm removing the FED...
That's especially creepy when you consider that the Fed was created in 1913.
My understanding of the FED Is a concentrated sector of macro-worldly banking, macro-currency providing market making arbitrators dating back to well before WWI. :happy at least that’s my understanding.
There wasn't even a national paper currency in 1829. Banknotes were issued privately by individual banks. They did not need any government authorization until 1865. Before the Civil War, you brought your banknote, one of 8,000 different kinds...

Image

...to a merchant, and, as this story explains,
So what basically this note will do is that if you have this note, Santa Claus and all, you'll go to the Howard Banking Company. And they are obligated to pay you $5 in gold and silver coins if you demand it at their bank.
They quote from a traveler's diary:
"Starting for Virginia with Virginia money, reached the Ohio River. Exchanged $20 Virginia note for shin plasters and a $3 note of the bank of the West Union. Paid away the $3 for breakfast, reached Tennessee, received $100 Tennessee note. Went back to Kentucky, forced there to exchange the Tennessee now for $88 of Kentucky money. Started home... A hundred yards from the tavern door, all notes refused except Baltimore and Ohio Railroad...
From the merchant's point of view,
What if you run a store? What if you run that bar in New York and some guy walks in and gives you some bill that you've never seen before? What do you do? Well, that's when you take out your trusty bank note reporter, this huge book the size of a phone book. This thing, it tells you what bills are in circulation, what they're supposed to look like and how much they might be worth.
I found this image of one of them:

Image
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.

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grayfox
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by grayfox » Mon Jan 28, 2019 7:59 am

Now as far as whether this banknote was lawful money,

Image

lawful
1. Being within the law; allowed by law: lawful methods of dissent.
2. Established, sanctioned, or recognized by the law: the lawful heir.
3. Obeying the law; law-abiding.

It was not illegal to use these private banknote, so it was lawful in that sense (1). But those notes were not authorized by an act of law, so not lawful money in that sense (2). The U.S. Constitution only gave Congress the power to make laws authorizing money.

If you owed someone $5 and offered to pay them with that Santa Claus banknote, they could refuse to accept it. But if you offered to pay them a $5 gold half eagle coin, they could not refuse to accept it.
Last edited by grayfox on Mon Jan 28, 2019 9:08 am, edited 2 times in total.

Strayshot
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by Strayshot » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:06 am

By far, the largest value of bitcoin and other cryptocurrency will be as a modern case study for business and economics majors about speculation and bubbles that will resonate more strongly than tulips.

Even blockchain, which has been massively hyped as the digital provenance capability of the future, has found little successful adoption.

http://merltech.org/blockchain-for-inte ... edge-gaps/

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/11/3 ... cess_rate/

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grayfox
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by grayfox » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:16 am

The Constitution of the United States

Article I

Section 8
1: The Congress shall have Power...

5: To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

National Archives: The Constitution of the United States: A Transcription

It's right in our Constitution. Only Congress is given the power to coin money. Interesting that it says nothing about printing money.

Unless Congress authorizes it, Bitcoin can't be lawful money.
Last edited by grayfox on Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

bberris
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Re: Cryptocurrency

Post by bberris » Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:19 am

Private banknotes were used as money, and circulated freely being used to buy things and services. They were legal to use, and therefore lawful. They, like all money, are debts, IOUs. A silver coin is an IOU, it is just stamped on a piece of metal which serves as collateral for the debt.

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