BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

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Topic Author
cas
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BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Wed Jan 09, 2019 1:09 pm

Update 1/18/2019: Liquidation from SaveDaily is complete, and assets are now sitting in the BenefitWallet deposit account. (With the exception of the partial-month accrued interest dividends I'm owed, which are currently missing-in-action). Total elapsed time: 13 total days, 10 business days.

Current best hypothesis on the main "gotcha": Every month, while their processing of their fee is in progress, SaveDaily blocks you from redeeming more than 90% of the balance of any fund in any one day. Their fee processing seems to take between 5 and 10 business days. So that is 25% to 50% of every month that the 90% limitation is in effect due to SaveDaily processing their fee.

There are numerous other smaller "gotcha"s, so read on in this thread if you want to know more.

There are several people (including me) who are now in the process of trying to get our money out of the BenefitWallet HSA deposit account and over to Fidelity HSA. I will continue to use this thread to document my progress and any snags encountered. Hopefully other people will also document their transfer/rollover experiences. I hope we can make the whole process easier (or at least less stressful) for future people who want to leave BenefitWallet.

Update 1/14/2019: Uh oh. There is now a report that getting funds from SaveDaily to the BenefitWallet deposit account may be only the start of the pain. here's a link to where that part of the discussion starts in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=269173&p=4319183#p4319183

Original post:

I'm trying to get my ducks in a row to do a trustee-to-trustee transfer of my HSA from BenefitWallet HSA to Fidelity HSA.

One step in this process is to liquidate all mutual fund investments on the investment side of the BenefitWallet HSA (outsourced by BenefitWallet to SaveDaily and accessible at a separate website), so that they are all sitting in cash in the HSA deposit account (accessible on the main BenefitWallet website) , where Fidelity can then grab the funds.

The first annoyance I encounter when trying to redeem a mutual fund at SaveDaily is this message (in size 4 font):
If you attempt to transfer 90% or more, but less than 100% of your available value in that position, your request will be rejected and you will be instructed to either reduce your transfer to 90% or below or to increase your transfer to 100% of the available value. Pending transactions must be considered when applying this calculation.
If I do try to enter 100% of the value of the position (no pending transactions), then it spits out an error message that says "You have entered $X, which is 100% of your available balance" and refuses to go any further.

Has anyone figured out how to liquidate 100% of investments at SaveDaily?

(SaveDaily has no access to customer support that I can find. The deposit account side of BenefitWallet has customer support, but I suspect they'll say they know nothing about the SaveDaily side. So I'm asking you guys before I start fighting that battle.)

(And, yes, I already successfully went through a round of redeeming 89.9% of each mutual fund, to reduce the balances to minimal values before trying to play this game any further.)

(And, yes, I realize that entering, as a dollar value, 100% of a mutual fund's value at yesterday's closing NAV will almost certainly be a different number than the mutual fund actually sells at at today's closing NAV. But that is the only option SaveDaily gives me -- to enter a dollar value. No option to enter a percentage or click a "Sell All Shares" box or anything like that.)
Last edited by cas on Fri Jan 18, 2019 7:27 am, edited 2 times in total.

lukestuckenhymer
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments at SaveDaily (investment side of HSA)?

Post by lukestuckenhymer » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:24 pm

I have BenefitWallet HSA, and I will be watching this thread very closely. Eventually I will be doing this transfer as well. SaveDaily is an atrocious platform.

I agree that their customer service is unreachable. I've sent many messages to complain about their site being down at critical times and I've gotten no response.

Having to liquidate HSA investments is particularly nightmarish in California since all HSA investment sales are subject to capital gains taxes... Oy vey.

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hoppy08520
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments at SaveDaily (investment side of HSA)?

Post by hoppy08520 » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:50 am

Hi OP, I wrote about my similar ordeal in another post (which you replied to). Excerpt:
hoppy08520 wrote:
Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:31 pm
It was harder than you might expect to simply transfer the funds from the BW investment platform to the savings account. I often got confusing error messages telling me that I am only allowed to transfer a certain amount, but when I try to transfer that amount, it tells me I am not allowed to do that. Quite frustrating. Eventually I managed to transfer everything into the savings, although it took several days for the online balances to actually show correct amounts.
I got the exact same baffling error messages you did. I’m a software developer myself and I was trying to figure out what that stupid program is trying to do but I have no idea where it was getting this arbitrary limit.

This is more than a year ago and now I’m having a hard time remembering how I overcame this problem. I seem to recall that I just tried kept trying to transfer the most it would let me each day. Then after three maybe four transfers I could finally transfer everything. It was very frustrating as a user but I eventually got to work. I see that they obviously have not fix this problem..I’m not surprised.

I talked to somebody there over the phone and of course they were totally useless.

As I wrote in my other post, I don’t think I’ve ever encountered a customer service division at a company where every single person I spoke to was basically an idiot. That’s not always the case. I have also spoken to customer service people about complex topics at HSA Bank, TD Ameritrade, Fidelity, T Rowe Price, Vanguard, and by a large I feel like I’m talking to smart people. But BenefitWallet? Forget it.

The whole ordeal I mentioned in my other post is why, in hindsight, if I could’ve done this all over again, I would’ve simply done a $25 transfer to avoid the hours of aggravation. Doing the rollover to save myself $25 was not worth it.

I’m at a new employer and guess who they use for their HSA? Yup :oops:

Topic Author
cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments at SaveDaily (investment side of HSA)?

Post by cas » Thu Jan 10, 2019 7:51 pm

Hoppy - Thank you for your reply! It makes it a bit less frustrating when there is someone else out there who has been frustrated by the same thing.

You probably saw it, but over on your thread, I think beebog may have solved the mystery.

For other people who may want to know, here's an excerpt from what beebog wrote: ( viewtopic.php?f=1&t=241923#p4311804 )
When I went to move everything back to the HSA side, I called SaveDaily first and the person on the phone told me to wait because the maintenance fee was in progress for the month and because of that the interface would limit me to only be able transfer 90%. I waited until the day after I saw the $2.90 deduction post and there was nothing pending in the transactions, then I attempted to move everything.
My $2.90 fee posted on 1/5/2019 (a Saturday), but had a status of "Complete**" until about 7pm today (1/10), when it switched to "Complete." Poking around the web site, I found this
Completed * - after a transaction is successfully executed it is placed in a status of "Completed *". The asterisk is intended to indicate that the transaction is considered successfully processed pending any possible future failure. For example, if the transaction were a request to purchase mutual fund shares our system would execute the order at the next market close and issue an ACH money transfer request that evening. If this request fails due to "Insufficient Funds", for example, a transaction that was thought to be complete will in fact fail.
Given that they had already successfully (on 1/7/2019) sold the shares necessary to get the $2.90 and deducted the $2.90 from the "Available Balance" on my account, who knows what they were waiting for, but... whatever.

The status on the $2.90 finally switched from "Complete**" to "Complete" about 7pm today (1/10), so
I'll try again tomorrow and see if it will let me move the last bit.

Meanwhile, I attempted to move another 90% today. In addition to the previously reported error messages, it entertained me with a new one:

- It let me redeem 90% of two funds that had about $40 left in them, leaving approx $4 in each.
- It "accepted" my submission to sell 90% of the third fund, which had about $200 left in it, which would have left a balance of about $20. Three hours later, a while after their 2pm eastern submission deadline, they reversed the "accepted" to "failed" giving the reason that
No Funds In Investment Available . . . The transaction failed because the amount redeemed or exchanged exceeded the available amount.
Well ... that reason is completely inaccurate. Their computer initially had completely agreed that I had asked for less than 90% of the funds to be withdrawn. (And the market was up today.) I suspect it had something to do with that being the fund that is used to obtain the $2.90 monthly fee and that fee transaction still being in the "Competed**" state, even though that fee had already been subtracted from the available balance ... and even though there would still be approx $20 left if they let the redemption request go through. I'm not sure why the "fail" kicked in on the third day I tried to redeem 90% and everything was fine on the first two days of redeeming 90%. Probably hit some invisible balance minimum or something.

I'll try again tomorrow.

Something that other people might want to keep in mind:

I was expecting this whole transfer to take quite a while, so, in order to avoid being out of the market, I was doing a switch-a-roo between stocks/cash in my HSA and bonds/stocks in my Roth IRA.

So after SaveDaily showed a status of "accepted" for the $180 redemption of Total Stock Market, I went over to my Roth IRA at Vanguard and exchanged $180 of bonds for Total Stock Market. But then the HSA side of the switch-a-roo failed, but the Vanguard transaction went through.

Not a big deal for $180, but I'm glad the first 90% transaction of Total Stock Market of around $15,000 went through fine on both sides.

Other people attempting the "stay in the market" switch-a-roo might want to....
- submit the SaveDaily side of the transaction before their 2pm eastern deadline
- wait until around 3:30pm - 3:45pm (eastern), go over to SaveDaily and make sure the "accepted" transaction didn't switch to a "failed" status
- then (assuming your "main" broker accepts transactions until 4pm), go over to your IRA (or wherever) and submit that side of the transaction, assuming your broker for that side of the transaction accepts submissions until 4pm.

JimB
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments at SaveDaily (investment side of HSA)?

Post by JimB » Fri Jan 11, 2019 10:43 am

I just moved all my funds from the investment side to the cash side. The $2.90 fee was deducted and shows complete several days ago. I had no problem entering the full dollar amount of my investments and having it be accepted. All my investments were in 1 Vanguard fund. I hope it completes without any problems. I will now begin the process of moving it to Fidelity.

Topic Author
cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments at SaveDaily (investment side of HSA)?

Post by cas » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:04 am

So, with JimB's encouraging example, I logged into BenefitWallet, hit the "Manage Investments" button and...
"Service Unavailable, Please Try Again Later."
Tried again later, and got in. The balances were even updated with the closing NAV for 1/10! (Usually it seems like someone has to show up for work in California, where SaveDaily is located, and manually hit a button to get the previous night's closing prices or something. They don't usually update until around noon eastern (9am Pacific). Contrary to the timestamp on this post, it is actually a little after 11am on the east cost right now.).

I fill out the Redeem form. It accepts 100% of the value of the fund and moves me to the page with the Confirm button! This is the first time I've gotten this far! Oh happy day!

I press "Confirm" and ...
Service Unavailable: Please try again later.

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hoppy08520
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments at SaveDaily (investment side of HSA)?

Post by hoppy08520 » Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:26 am

cas wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:04 am
So, with JimB's encouraging example, I logged into BenefitWallet, hit the "Manage Investments" button and...
"Service Unavailable, Please Try Again Later."
Tried again later, and got in. The balances were even updated with the closing NAV for 1/10! (Usually it seems like someone has to show up for work in California, where SaveDaily is located, and manually hit a button to get the previous night's closing prices or something. They don't usually update until around noon eastern (9am Pacific). Contrary to the timestamp on this post, it is actually a little after 11am on the east cost right now.).

I fill out the Redeem form. It accepts 100% of the value of the fund and moves me to the page with the Confirm button! This is the first time I've gotten this far! Oh happy day!

I press "Confirm" and ...
Service Unavailable: Please try again later.
It's amazing that such an inept organization can actually be the #6 HSA provider in the USA by assets under management, at least as of 2017 (source: Who's Raking in the HSA Dollars?).

The irony is that HSAs are supposed to empower consumers to pick the best health care providers, examine costs, and let the market decide...whether that's what actually happens is up for debate. Ironically, though, we consumers don't have the same option to pick HSA administrators since we are usually forced to use the one our employers choose for us*. As a result, BenefitWallet can have terrible customer service and buggy archaic IT systems and websites, but we consumers are still captive to them because for some reason, employers keep picking BenefitWallet. BenefitWallet has absolutely no incentive at all to be good to consumers.

OP, good luck, it will work out eventually :-)

* Yes, I realize that an individual is allowed to have multiple HSA accounts, but this is complicated to manage and, until recently, not such a great idea because there were no zero-fee HSA providers and you wouldn't want to pay feels on two accounts.

Topic Author
cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments at SaveDaily (investment side of HSA)?

Post by cas » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:26 pm

Well, some progress:
Received: Redeem all shares from VANGUARD TOTAL STOCK MARKET INSTL to HSA Deposit Account
Hooray! (provisionally. The possibility of a status change to "Fail" still lurks out there.)

So ... lesson for readers who are preparing for their own fund liquidations from SaveDaily:

My current hypothesis is that there is an unadvertised limitation that you can't do a 100% redemption (of any fund) if the most recent fee withdrawal does not have a "Complete" status. It isn't good enough that you can see that it is "Complete**" and the dollars were, in fact, already withdrawn from your balance and share total. It isn't good enough that the fund that you are trying to liquidate is a different fund from the one that is used to pay the fee.

Further note: It seemed to require at least 5 business days (you can sell on the 5th business day) after the fee is posted to your account for it to achieve this "Complete" status. So that is approx 1 week out of every month where you will be encountering these 90%/100% error messages I've been documenting.

That status message also seems to answer a question I had: Did they really program their system so that if you entered 100% of the currently available balance (which is based on yesterday's NAV), it assumed that that was code for "Sell all" (and don't pay attention to what the balance actually is at today's closing NAV)? (Talk about kludgy... I used to be a software engineer. It really doesn't take much to put a "Sell all shares" check box on a web form...)

There was also lack of progress:

It is still refusing to sell the remaining approx $4 in each of my two other funds. The error message has changed slightly. When I enter 100% of my available balance, it used to tell me "You have entered $x, which is 100% of your available balance" and refuse to proceed.

Today it told me that "$X exceeds 90% of your available balance, which is $X" and refused to proceed.

I'm going to hypothesize that the problem is that I still have transactions for those two funds that aren't yet marked "Complete" with no asterisks ((the 90% that I redeemed yesterday successfully). I'm going to guess they have it programmed not to allow a 100% redemption if there are transactions for that fund in a state that is anything except "Complete".

Based on my previous adventures with redeeming 90%s this week, the status on yesterday's redemptions should change to "Complete" sometime this evening. (Meanwhile, since the 90% redemption I tried for Total Stock "failed" yesterday, all of its transactions do have a "Complete" status. I'm going to guess that is why it let me proceed.)

I'll try again on Monday...

lukestuckenhymer
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments at SaveDaily (investment side of HSA)?

Post by lukestuckenhymer » Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:33 pm

cas wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 1:26 pm
My current hypothesis is that there is an unadvertised limitation that you can't do a 100% redemption (of any fund) if the most recent fee withdrawal does not have a "Complete" status. It isn't good enough that you can see that it is "Complete**" and the dollars were, in fact, already withdrawn from your balance and share total. It isn't good enough that the fund that you are trying to liquidate is a different fund from the one that is used to pay the fee.

Further note: It seemed to require at least 5 business days (you can sell on the 5th business day) after the fee is posted to your account for it to achieve this "Complete" status. So that is approx 1 week out of every month where you will be encountering these 90%/100% error messages I've been documenting.
This is astounding. My January fee says requested 1/5, completed 1/7, and the transaction confirmation arrived yesterday 1/10.
What would have happened if you tried this in December? For me, it requested 12/5, completed 12/10 and I got the confirmation on 12/14... That's 10 days!!!

hoppy08520 wrote:
Fri Jan 11, 2019 11:26 am
Ironically, though, we consumers don't have the same option to pick HSA administrators since we are usually forced to use the one our employers choose for us*. As a result, BenefitWallet can have terrible customer service and buggy archaic IT systems and websites, but we consumers are still captive to them because for some reason, employers keep picking BenefitWallet. BenefitWallet has absolutely no incentive at all to be good to consumers.
The same goes for 401k/403b administrators, but the difference is that HSAs are a lot less utilized. BenefitWallet doesn't have much incentive since the competition is so weak. Also, if your 401k sucks, your CEO will know about it because he or she definitely uses it. If your HSA sucks and your higher-ups don't utilize it, you're probably stuck with it. HSAs are a truly amazing investment vehicle, no tax going in, no tax coming out. It's a shame they're usually an afterthought.

Topic Author
cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments at SaveDaily (investment side of HSA)?

Post by cas » Sun Jan 13, 2019 9:53 am

I've learned to be mellow about odd things I see on financial websites on the weekend. There's a 99.9% chance it will all sort itself out by the time the day starts on Monday morning. (And, in the case of SaveDaily, I've learned the "the day starts" seems to mean "the time the day starts for an employee in California, i.e. noon eastern.")

So this update is mostly musings generated by the morbid curiosity of an ex-programmer.

My "Redeem 100%" request was (finally) accepted on Friday 1/11. It is now Sunday (a weekend day, so - you know - time to be mellow about odd things on financial web sites). The transaction does seem to have gone through (hooray!) but the current display is rather odd. (The redactions in italics were done by me. They are real numbers on the SaveDaily website.)

Redeem All to Bank Account Requested: 01-11-2019 Units:-1.000 Value:$0.00+ Status: In-Process - Source Completed ...

[transaction-number-redacted] Redeem all shares from VANGUARD TOTAL STOCK MARKET INSTL to HSA Deposit Account
Symbol: VITSX Units:[# shares redacted] - Amount:$0.00- Price:$0.00 Trade Date: 01-11-2019
Believe me, I've been taking screenshots of the state of my account all along the way. The [number shares redacted] in the second part of the listing is the correct number of shares that was available to be redeemed. So that is encouraging.

I'm not even surprised by the $0.00 listed as the total-amount/price-per-share of the redemption. As I said in a previous post, all indications are that an employee has to physically show up for work in California and kick the server in order for things to update with the most recent closing NAV. Employee has weekend off = no update of Friday closing NAV until noon on Monday.

(That said, I'm somewhat glad that I'm seeing $0.00 when the redemption is small (less than $200). Even though I'm quite confident of what is going on, if I had successfully redeemed 100% of the original (pre-90% series of redemptions) $20,000ish balance, I might have had a hard time avoiding a bit of anxiety upon viewing that $0.00.)

However, note to young programmers:

$0.00 and "I don't know" are not the same thing. Especially when it involves a customer's money and is displayed for days on end on a customer-facing page. Whatever customer service rep has to deal with customer anxiety about that $0.00 will soon come to curse your name.

I'm curious about the extra "-1.000" share transaction. (That didn't appear for my previous 90% redemptions.)

If I were paranoid, I'd worry it was some sort of unlisted, unexpected fee they are going to charge.

If I were wildly optimistic, I would hope that it was some sort of placeholder where they could efficiently credit any accrued daily/paid monthly interest-dividend that will be generated by the sale of all shares of some funds. That situation doesn't apply to Vanguard Total Stock Market, but it does apply to things like money market funds and (I think) Vanguard Total Bond Market.

Now that this process has dragged out so long into the month, I think I will have accrued a couple of dollars in interest dividends in Total Bond. I've been wondering what is going to become of them:

- Will they appear efficiently on the same day as the "Redeem All" proceeds and be transmitted seemlessly to the deposit account?

- Will they suddenly appear at the end of the month, potentially (if my timing of submitting the trustee-to-trustee transfer request is wrong) causing BenefitWallet to tell Fidelity that they can't complete a transfer because I haven't liquidated all my SaveDaily holdings?

- Will they never appear in my balance because SaveDaily will decide they are owed part or all of a final $2.90 monthly fee?

- Will SaveDaily block my access as soon I've done a "Redeem All" on all my funds, causing the stray $1.50 (showing up at the end of the month or some such) to be inaccessible to me, only to show up in the Unclaimed Funds listing of who-knows-what-state a year or two from now?

Time will tell.

Topic Author
cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments at SaveDaily (investment side of HSA)?

Post by cas » Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:39 am

Uh oh. A scary story has emerged on boglehead's that getting the funds from SaveDaily to the BenefitWallet depost account may be only the start of the pain:

From PrettyCoolWorkshop here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=269313&p=4319128#p4319037
I did a transfer from an employer HSA [OP confirmed later it was BenefitWallet] to a Fidelity HSA about a year ago. It required sending in a paper form by mail, and waiting 8 weeks for the estimated time for the normal process to complete. After 10 weeks, nothing had changed, and I had to call them repeatedly, eventually getting all 3 parties on the phone simultaneously multiple times, and nothing got resolved until I started yelling at the employer HSA representative 6 months into the process. Statements such as "I need your boss's boss's boss on the line, this is ridiculous!" etc. The Fidelity reps were empathetic with me the whole time, and based on the process flow they had plausible deniability that any problems were their fault. I blame the employer HSA 100%, their reps were incompetent and obviously working off of a script even after repeated escalation, and they failed to send me documents I requested every time I requested them.

This transfer didn't close my employer HSA (now has $0 and we use wife's HSA), and I had to pay a fee that they refused to tell me about before the process began, I think it was $20. It was the most irritating financial transaction I've ever completed.
I've asked PrettyCoolWorkshop for some more details over in that other thread. (e.g. I'm not clear whether he/she might have tried initiating the transfer from the BenefitWallet side rather than from the Fidelity side.)

Is there anyone further along in a BenefitWallet -> Fidelity HSA trustee-to-trustee rollover who has any insight? Has anyone talked to Fidelity about whether they have figured out the useful levers to pull to make a transfer from BenefitWallet go smoothly?


I have a temperament where I feel less stressed doing a trustee-to-trustee transfer. (less to go wrong ... like tax forms showing up early 2019 that don't properly show a 60 day rollover, then having to sort it out a year after the fact)

But if BenefitWallet is still this bad, a 60-day-rollover is probably the better approach to snatch my money out from underneath them. (Note: 60 day rollovers apparently aren't a panacea at BenefitWallet either. See hoppy08520's excellent post here: "Tips for closing out BenefitWallet HSA via direct rollover to new HSA" viewtopic.php?t=241923 )

First step is probably to call Fidelity and see if they, now that more people are probably wanting to transfer BenefitWallet -> Fidelity, have figured out what levers to pull to reliably perform a trustee-to-trustee transfer.

Topic Author
cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:13 am

Update, over on the other thread, from PrettyCoolWorkshop on their experience with a BenefitWallet -> Fidelity HSA trustee-to-trustee transfer. ( viewtopic.php?p=4319329#p4319293 )
PrettyCoolWorkshop wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:45 am
cas wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:47 am
PrettyCoolWorkshop wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:40 am
Sure. The employer HSA was through BenefitWallet.
Do you remember if you tried to initiate the trustee-to-trustee transfer from the BenefitWallet end or the Fidelity end?

I'm a little confused because you said you had to send BenefitWallet a paper form, but the only transfer-related form they have on their website involves transferring assets *to* them rather than *from* them.

(Meanwhile, Fidelity has a form to use to initiate a trustee-to-trustee transfer *to* Fidelity from BenefitWallet, which I would send to Fidelity, then Fidelity would contact BenefitWallet and, theoretically, Fidelity would have do most of the dealing with BenefitWallet. However, other people with HealthEquity HSAs have been called by Fidelity saying that HealthEquity refuses to talk to Fidelity until the account owner calls HealthEquity directly, so your account may well fit in with that type of thing.)

I realize that it was a long time ago, and you would rather forget it all, but there are apparently quite a few of use ramping up to try to do a BenefitWallet -> Fidelity transfer, so any insight you can offer would be greatly appreciated. ("BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)" viewtopic.php?f=10&t=269173&newpost=431 ... ead#unread )
I initiated the transfer through the Fidelity end. I believe I used the "transfer of assets" pdf form that you can print of through their website using the transfer tracker workflow (not 100% sure). Printed and mailed to Fidelity. Fidelity then communicated with BenefitWallet, and I was able to confirm through Fidelity that they were 100% sure they had sent the information, and they had the details that they would only know through my form, so I was able to trust them. Based on the what I could gather, the most likely mistake is that all information was successfully received by BenefitWallet, but then fell into a black hole. They claimed to have cut me a check 2 months into the process, but that does not match my account statements, which do show the check they finally sent 6 months into the process, but no earlier check from 2 months in.

At no point in the process was there any indication that I had done anything wrong necessarily, such as failing to call BenefitWallet similar to your HealthEquity example. I had called BenefitWallet at first, and they told me to use the Fidelity process.

The only actionable advice I have to offer is:
1. Mark the date that your transfer should be completed by in your calendar, then give it 2 more weeks before taking action to make sure you don't prematurely descend into a nightmare.
2. If you call BenefitWallet, realize the rep you are talking to is an idiot, and try to escalate to a higher service representative, they will transfer you to another idiot. The BenefitWallet service reps I talked to mostly sounded like they had a mouth full of potatoes and were depressed to be working in a dysfunctional system.
3. With BenefitWallet, if you request certain documents through email, they will claim they cannot do it, and have to mail them to you. This mail may never arrive.
4. If you call BenefitWallet to follow up on the status of a previous request, they will not be able to follow up. If you call BenefitWallet multiple times with the same request, they may cancel previous requests out of their own confusion.
5. Initiate a 3-way call with a Fidelity rep, a BenefitWallet rep, and yourself as soon as possible. This is what ultimately saved me, although it still took a month after this. Basically, after our first 3-way call, the Fidelity rep (reasonably) assumed that BenefitWallet would complete the actions the said they would, but they didn't. After 2 weeks, I did another 3-way call, and it succeeded.
6. BenefitWallet states that once they cut a check, it takes 2 weeks to reach Fidelity. You can't really know anything about where it is in the process for the duration of these 2 weeks.

Hope it's helpful! I probably fell into a black hole that most people will not fall into. But the process is error prone. I started reading through the thread linked above (viewtopic.php?p=4310322#p4310322) where some people, yourself included, have their BenefitWallet assets in investments, not just in cash... mine was just in cash (the ~$3 monthly fee to invest didn't feel worth it for my <$4,000 account balance) so I hope those folks don't have too much added worry from liquidating the investments.

I wonder if Fidelity is ramping up their HSA options now because the accounts have now grown large enough that they pay for themselves. The legal concept of the HSA is only a few years old, and given maximum annual contributions it wasn't that long ago that HSA's couldn't realistically be bigger than say $20,000. Now that they are larger they are worth it to have a no-fee option (just expense ratios, etc to bring in profit).

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cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:35 am

Also ... this seems rather anticlimactic now that it looks like the liquidation may be the least of my hassles ... but, for the record:

I was able to put through the 2 remaining "Redeem 100%" transactions this morning on SaveDaily. So that supports my hypothesis that the problem on Friday (when it was willing to Redeem 100% for 1 fund, but refused to Redeem 100% for 2 other funds ) was that there was a previous (90%) redemption that had not yet achieved a "Complete" (no asterisks) status. (The "Complete" status was achieved Friday evening, so all was apparently good to go today (Monday).)

They had even updated their account values to use Friday's NAV by around 10am eastern!

And I didn't get a "Service Unavailable: Try Again Later" when I submitted my redemption request before noon eastern. (There had been a couple of other times last week where the account values were updated to use the most recent NAV a bit before noon eastern. But every time I tried to put an actual redemption through before noon eastern, I got the "Service Unavailable" message.)

On the negative side, it still says that the total value of the 100% redemption that did succeed on Friday is $0.00. (It did update the per share sale NAV in the transaction from $0.00 to the correct value.) But the transaction status is still "In Progress," so I'll just keep an eye on that $0.00 for now.

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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by JimB » Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:31 am

UPDATE: I sold all my shares on Friday morning. The transaction took place yesterday(Monday). Today my investment balance is $0.00 but my cash balance did not change. I can no longer see any transactions record on the investment side (I only had 1 fund).

I also ran into a problem with the Fidelity website when I tried to open the HSA (or any kind of account). After I am logged in and try to open another account I get - Internal Server Error ... I tried this with different browsers and different machines with the same result.

The representative said I should download the paper form and send that in. I am opening a simple brokerage account first (my only other account at Fidelity is my 401(k)). Then I will try opening the HSA online again. I was not able to find a download for a paper form to open an HSA.

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cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:20 am

JimB wrote:
Tue Jan 15, 2019 10:31 am
UPDATE: I sold all my shares on Friday morning. The transaction took place yesterday(Monday). Today my investment balance is $0.00 but my cash balance did not change. I can no longer see any transactions record on the investment side (I only had 1 fund).
Yes, my experience is that the redemption dollars disappear entirely (appear neither on the SaveDaily side nor on the BenefitWallet side) for at least 36 hours and maybe more. My track record so far (in case it is of interest to people attempting this in the future):

Tuesday 1/8 (before 2pm eastern cut-off time): Requested 90% (max allowed at the time) redemption of fund.
- late Wednesday 1/9: Redeemed dollars disappeared entirely (both sides).
- Midday Friday 1/11: Reappeared on BenefitWallet side. (BenefitWallet didn't send out ACH deposit confirmation until Saturday 1/12, so I'm not sure if the funds were really accessible on 1/11 or not.)
- Total transaction time: 4 business days, 4 days total.

Wednesday 1/9 (before 2pm eastern cut-off time): Requested second round of 90% (max allowed at the time) redemption of fund.
- late Thursday 1/10: Redeemed dollars disappeared entirely (both sides).
- morning Tuesday 1/15: Reappeared on BenefitWallet side. (BenefitWallet sent out ACH deposit confirmation Tuesday 1/15)
- Total transaction time: 5 business days, 7 days total.

Since I got caught up in the 90% restriction time period, I still have 3 more days worth of transactions in various stages of the process.

The 100% redemption I was able to submit on Friday 1/11 is acting a bit differently than the 90% redemptions. I think there might have been an extra day in there where they were figuring the $ amount of the proceeds from a 100% redemption. Like yours, it has now entered the "disappear entirely" stage. Best guess is that it will reappear on the Benefit Wallet side in 36 to 72 hours. We'll see.

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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by Tycoon » Tue Jan 15, 2019 11:50 am

cas wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 11:13 am
Update, over on the other thread, from PrettyCoolWorkshop on their experience with a BenefitWallet -> Fidelity HSA trustee-to-trustee transfer. ( viewtopic.php?p=4319329#p4319293 )
PrettyCoolWorkshop wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 10:45 am
cas wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 9:47 am
PrettyCoolWorkshop wrote:
Mon Jan 14, 2019 8:40 am
Sure. The employer HSA was through BenefitWallet.
Do you remember if you tried to initiate the trustee-to-trustee transfer from the BenefitWallet end or the Fidelity end?

I'm a little confused because you said you had to send BenefitWallet a paper form, but the only transfer-related form they have on their website involves transferring assets *to* them rather than *from* them.

(Meanwhile, Fidelity has a form to use to initiate a trustee-to-trustee transfer *to* Fidelity from BenefitWallet, which I would send to Fidelity, then Fidelity would contact BenefitWallet and, theoretically, Fidelity would have do most of the dealing with BenefitWallet. However, other people with HealthEquity HSAs have been called by Fidelity saying that HealthEquity refuses to talk to Fidelity until the account owner calls HealthEquity directly, so your account may well fit in with that type of thing.)

I realize that it was a long time ago, and you would rather forget it all, but there are apparently quite a few of use ramping up to try to do a BenefitWallet -> Fidelity transfer, so any insight you can offer would be greatly appreciated. ("BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)" viewtopic.php?f=10&t=269173&newpost=431 ... ead#unread )
I initiated the transfer through the Fidelity end. I believe I used the "transfer of assets" pdf form that you can print of through their website using the transfer tracker workflow (not 100% sure). Printed and mailed to Fidelity. Fidelity then communicated with BenefitWallet, and I was able to confirm through Fidelity that they were 100% sure they had sent the information, and they had the details that they would only know through my form, so I was able to trust them. Based on the what I could gather, the most likely mistake is that all information was successfully received by BenefitWallet, but then fell into a black hole. They claimed to have cut me a check 2 months into the process, but that does not match my account statements, which do show the check they finally sent 6 months into the process, but no earlier check from 2 months in.

At no point in the process was there any indication that I had done anything wrong necessarily, such as failing to call BenefitWallet similar to your HealthEquity example. I had called BenefitWallet at first, and they told me to use the Fidelity process.

The only actionable advice I have to offer is:
1. Mark the date that your transfer should be completed by in your calendar, then give it 2 more weeks before taking action to make sure you don't prematurely descend into a nightmare.
2. If you call BenefitWallet, realize the rep you are talking to is an idiot, and try to escalate to a higher service representative, they will transfer you to another idiot. The BenefitWallet service reps I talked to mostly sounded like they had a mouth full of potatoes and were depressed to be working in a dysfunctional system.
3. With BenefitWallet, if you request certain documents through email, they will claim they cannot do it, and have to mail them to you. This mail may never arrive.
4. If you call BenefitWallet to follow up on the status of a previous request, they will not be able to follow up. If you call BenefitWallet multiple times with the same request, they may cancel previous requests out of their own confusion.
5. Initiate a 3-way call with a Fidelity rep, a BenefitWallet rep, and yourself as soon as possible. This is what ultimately saved me, although it still took a month after this. Basically, after our first 3-way call, the Fidelity rep (reasonably) assumed that BenefitWallet would complete the actions the said they would, but they didn't. After 2 weeks, I did another 3-way call, and it succeeded.
6. BenefitWallet states that once they cut a check, it takes 2 weeks to reach Fidelity. You can't really know anything about where it is in the process for the duration of these 2 weeks.

Hope it's helpful! I probably fell into a black hole that most people will not fall into. But the process is error prone. I started reading through the thread linked above (viewtopic.php?p=4310322#p4310322) where some people, yourself included, have their BenefitWallet assets in investments, not just in cash... mine was just in cash (the ~$3 monthly fee to invest didn't feel worth it for my <$4,000 account balance) so I hope those folks don't have too much added worry from liquidating the investments.

I wonder if Fidelity is ramping up their HSA options now because the accounts have now grown large enough that they pay for themselves. The legal concept of the HSA is only a few years old, and given maximum annual contributions it wasn't that long ago that HSA's couldn't realistically be bigger than say $20,000. Now that they are larger they are worth it to have a no-fee option (just expense ratios, etc to bring in profit).
Thanks for posting this information. BenefitWallet is my custodian and moving my HSA money is on my list of near-term things to do. What you posted will be helpful.
Emotionless, prognostication free investing. Ignoring the noise and economists since 1979. I see the world as it is; not how I wish it to be.

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cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:00 am

Here is SaveDaily's greeting for me when I attempt to log in and check the status of my account this morning:
An error occurred on the server when processing the URL. Please contact the system administrator.
This coincides with the BenefitWallet side of my account newly showing my investment balance as $0.*

So the question becomes:

- Is this SaveDaily's way of informing me that they've closed down my account, since I've redeemed everything?

- Or is this just another instance of SaveDaily's rather frequent unscheduled downtimes?

Ah, well, maybe it will turn out to be paranoia, but I strongly suspected SaveDaily might abruptly cut off access, so yesterday I took screenshots of absolutely every bit of my SaveDaily account information I thought I would ever need. (Too bad that - on January 15, 2019 - they still hadn't managed to generate their official account statement for the quarter ending December 31, 2018.)

Or maybe when that SaveDaily employee In California shows up to work around noon eastern today, he'll discover he needs to reboot the server, and my access will revive.

Time will tell.

*I still have two day's worth of redemptions in the "vanish entirely from both BenefitWallet's and SaveDaily's balances" ACH limbo stage. But, indeed, I was expecting my final mutual fund redemption to settle on the SaveDaily side last night, so the $0.00 investment balance was what I was expecting. I got the above error message when I clicked on the "Manage Investments" button on the BenefitWallet website.

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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by JimB » Wed Jan 16, 2019 9:27 am

UPDATE: The mutual fund sale I Initiated on Friday Jan. 11 is now complete on Jan. 16. I saw the money in the Benefit Wallet account this morning. I have not checked the exact amount yet but, it looks like it is probably correct.

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cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Wed Jan 16, 2019 1:07 pm

Heads up for anyone who has recently liquidated their investments at BenefitWallet, has them sitting in the BenefitWallet deposit account, and is now thinking of attempting an electronic transfer of those funds to their (linked) bank account so that they can do a 60-day-rollover: apparently BenefitWallet imposes limits on the amount of funds you can electronically transfer to your bank account.

(A 60-day-rollover requires that the amount of your 60-day-rollover to your bank account happen all in one transfer, or the IRS will impose great misery upon you. (See viewtopic.php?t=266089#p4254006 ) )

No useful information on the BenefitWallet website (that I can find) on this matter, but I ran across the information in a Better Business Bureau complaint that they'll likely block your funds transfer request if you request more than 80% of your balance ... or if you request the transfer too soon after redeeming funds from your investment account ... or who knows what else:
Customer complaint (selected bits):

After waiting at least 5 days for a transfer from my investment account to my HSA checking account to clear, I tried transferring those funds ($5000) to my external checking account. 8 business days after that, still no funds, so I called to see what was up. The lady told me to wait a day or two more, but then checked on some back end systems (so she claimed) and determined that I had successfully submitted the transfer but that MyBenefitWallet cancelled the transfer because they concluded it was suspicious. She claims someone tried calling me to inform me, which I doubt is true. (And I KNOW I received no voicemail or any other message about this.)

BenefitWallet response (selected bits):

Members are required to verify some ACH debits from the account to ensure they were actually created by the account holder, to maintain the security of the account. A transaction may be suspicious if it is for more than 80% of the balance, or going to a potentially compromising bank account, etc. Your debit ACH was also requested the day after that amount was credited to your account (on 07/17). As we advised in our 07/26 email and the 07/27 phone call, the initial 07/18 transaction was voided for this reason.
Source: https://www.bbb.org/us/nj/secaucus/prof ... er-reviews from review by Trenton T on 7/27/2018

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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by Ant7 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:38 am

I am also in process of transferring my HSA from BenefitWallet to Fidelity.

After going through similar issues as OP I finally got my investments proceeds transferred to deposit account. I have started in parallel the 60-day-rollover process on Fidelity side and here is the note I now see in my Fidelity account after they received my transfer form:
Action Needed: Fidelity no longer accepts liquidation instructions for transfers from brokerage companies. Please contact BENEFIT WALLET and provide liquidation instructions, then contact Fidelity at 800-800-6890, option 1, 2 at your earliest convenience.
Any suggestions on where to go from here?

The worst part is that account is about $20k, I have missed recent market recovery and I do not have the " switch-a-roo" option since my AA is 100% stocks

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cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:55 am

Ant7 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:38 am
I am also in process of transferring my HSA from BenefitWallet to Fidelity.

After going through similar issues as OP I finally got my investments proceeds transferred to deposit account. I have started in parallel the 60-day-rollover process on Fidelity side and here is the note I now see in my Fidelity account after they received my transfer form:
Action Needed: Fidelity no longer accepts liquidation instructions for transfers from brokerage companies. Please contact BENEFIT WALLET and provide liquidation instructions, then contact Fidelity at 800-800-6890, option 1, 2 at your earliest convenience.
Any suggestions on where to go from here?
That is certainly a disturbing report. Thanks for telling us.

I have couple of thoughts/questions:

1. How "in parallel" were your actions? Is it possible that Fidelity was prompt, BenefitWallet was (most assuredly, definitely!) NOT prompt, and that Fidelity made the request for transfer of funds before all of the funds had successfully made it out of the SaveDaily side? So then BenefitWallet told Fidelity that you still had assets over on the SaveDaily side, and the Fidelity message is indicating (not quite clearly) that you need all the assets to be in the BenefitWallet deposit account before anything can happen? Maybe Fidelity can provide clarification if you call them.

2. Can you clarify exactly what you tried to do? You say you sent Fidelity their "transfer form," which is used to initiate a trustee-to-trustee transfer. But then you say you were trying to do a "60-day-rollover." (The "60 day rollover" method of getting funds from one HSA vendor to another is a different method than the "trustee to trustee transfer" method.) For a 60-day-rollover, you would need to give Fidelity a deposit form (filled out in a special way), rather than a transfer form. The details and terminology of this is certainly confusing, but is it possible that the problem is a mismatch between the method you want to use and the form you sent Fidelity?

For some more description on how to use the "60 day rollover" method, see hoppy08520's excellent post:
"Tips for closing out BenefitWallet HSA via direct rollover to new HSA" viewtopic.php?t=241923

(Although ... warning ... if you use hoppy08520's method be very, very, VERY careful that your BenefitWallet balance does not have a new monthly fee withdrawn from it while a check is in transit, thus causing the check to bounce. This is a new, apparently common "gotcha" I'm coming across in the research I'm doing, but I'm not far enough along to write an update yet.)

Also ... (warning: signs of paranoia ahead) ... what I fear is that Fidelity may have experienced that trustee-to-trustee transfers allow BenefitWallet to sink too much of Fidelity employee's time into a months-long black hole ... and that the message is a sign that they are now prohibiting using the trustee-to-trustee transfer method with BenefitWallet. But ... before jumping unnecessarily to that conclusion, let's explore easier explanations like the ones I mentioned above.

lstone19
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by lstone19 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:17 am

I think this is merely saying Fidelity will not do transfers from brokerage investment sub-accounts, only from the master cash account at the HSA custodian. Probably what Fidelity should have been doing all along but people start seeing ways around transfer/closure fees by moving everything to the investment account (particularly with Lively and HSAbank who used real TDA brokerage accounts for the investment side) and transferring from there. The transfer is supposed to be custodian-to-custodian and in ant7's case, Benefit Wallet is the custodian, not Save Daily. As cas7 said, maybe the transfer form got to Benefit Waller before the investment liquidation was complete.

beebog
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by beebog » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:42 am

cas wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:00 am
Here is SaveDaily's greeting for me when I attempt to log in and check the status of my account this morning:
An error occurred on the server when processing the URL. Please contact the system administrator.
This coincides with the BenefitWallet side of my account newly showing my investment balance as $0.*

So the question becomes:

- Is this SaveDaily's way of informing me that they've closed down my account, since I've redeemed everything?

- Or is this just another instance of SaveDaily's rather frequent unscheduled downtimes?

Ah, well, maybe it will turn out to be paranoia, but I strongly suspected SaveDaily might abruptly cut off access, so yesterday I took screenshots of absolutely every bit of my SaveDaily account information I thought I would ever need. (Too bad that - on January 15, 2019 - they still hadn't managed to generate their official account statement for the quarter ending December 31, 2018.)

Or maybe when that SaveDaily employee In California shows up to work around noon eastern today, he'll discover he needs to reboot the server, and my access will revive.

Time will tell.

*I still have two day's worth of redemptions in the "vanish entirely from both BenefitWallet's and SaveDaily's balances" ACH limbo stage. But, indeed, I was expecting my final mutual fund redemption to settle on the SaveDaily side last night, so the $0.00 investment balance was what I was expecting. I got the above error message when I clicked on the "Manage Investments" button on the BenefitWallet website.
Not sure, but when I called SaveDaily about transferring all my money over to the BenefitWallet side, I asked if I should call back after it was complete to close out the SaveDaily account for good. I hate having extraneous accounts hanging around. They told me not to bother because the account would be closed automatically when it had a zero balance. They didn't say how quickly that occurred though.

beebog
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by beebog » Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:47 am

cas wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:55 am
Also ... (warning: signs of paranoia ahead) ... what I fear is that Fidelity may have experienced that trustee-to-trustee transfers allow BenefitWallet to sink too much of Fidelity employee's time into a months-long black hole ... and that the message is a sign that they are now prohibiting using the trustee-to-trustee transfer method with BenefitWallet. But ... before jumping unnecessarily to that conclusion, let's explore easier explanations like the ones I mentioned above.
I don't think so. I waited until my SaveDaily was closed and all my money was in BenefitWallet before I sent my transfer of asset form to Fidelity. Yesterday my status at Fidelity switched to "In Progress" with the message: "Fidelity has finished processing your transfer request, and has sent it to Benefit Wallet for review."

Supposedly it should complete within fifteen days. *Crosses fingers*

rantk81
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by rantk81 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 10:03 am

My employer used BenefitWallet a few years ago. I can confirm that it was a terrible customer-service experience too, for a variety of reasons.
Thank goodness Fidelity has thrown their hat into the ring in this area! These crummy old HSA custodians can't die off fast enough, in my opinion!

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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:46 am

beebog wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 9:42 am
cas wrote:
Wed Jan 16, 2019 7:00 am
Here is SaveDaily's greeting for me when I attempt to log in and check the status of my account this morning:
An error occurred on the server when processing the URL. Please contact the system administrator.
This coincides with the BenefitWallet side of my account newly showing my investment balance as $0.*

So the question becomes:

- Is this SaveDaily's way of informing me that they've closed down my account, since I've redeemed everything?

- Or is this just another instance of SaveDaily's rather frequent unscheduled downtimes?
Not sure, but when I called SaveDaily about transferring all my money over to the BenefitWallet side, I asked if I should call back after it was complete to close out the SaveDaily account for good. I hate having extraneous accounts hanging around. They told me not to bother because the account would be closed automatically when it had a zero balance. They didn't say how quickly that occurred though.
Thanks, beebog. I hope your trustee-to-trustee transfer goes well. Let us know how it goes.

Update on the above:

My access to SaveDaily is restored today. It was down all day yesterday. So I still don't know whether that was a day-long general SaveDaily crash or something specific to me and my newly $0 balance.

Hint to other people trying to liquidate their investments on SaveDaily: After you make your final "Sell All" redemption request, don't dawdle on pulling any transaction confirmations or other information you want from SaveDaily. It is unknown how long you will continue to have access. (But don't panic if you lose access the day after the final transaction settles. The access may come back after 24 hours.)

Here's another mystery related to the "Sell All" of my Vanguard Total Bond Market: my partial-month accrued dividends are still missing-in-action. (I confirmed in the Total Bond prospectus that the dividends are
declared daily and distributed monthly. [ . . .] You generally will continue earning dividends until the first business day following your trade date

When shares of a "declare daily/distribute monthly" fund are sold in my personal accounts at vanguard.com, I'm pretty sure the accrued dividends related to the sold shares show up in my account the day after the sale. (I'm positive they show up the next day for money market funds. I've never done a "sell all shares" of Total Bond on vanguard.com, so I'm not 100% sure.)

But ... with this sale of shares via SaveDaily ... the dividends weren't ACHed over to my BenefitWallet account with the rest of the sale proceeds. They haven't made an appearance in my SaveDaily balance.

So ...

Is there something about the SaveDaily plaform that causes partial-month dividends to be forfeited?

Or will they show up with the normal dividend distribution on January 31? If so, that may be interesting:
- January 31 is a Thursday. Vanguard releases the dividends after market close.
- I would guess the dividend distribution would settle on SaveDaily possibly Friday, February 1, but more likely Monday February 4.
- That means the earliest I could initiate a redemption of the dividends is possibly Monday, February 4, but more likely Tuesday, February 5.
-SaveDaily takes their monthly fee on Tuesday February 5, starting the whole "only 90% of your balance is accessible until the fee settles 5 to 7 days from now" cycle over again.

Time will tell. But I'm betting I never get those dividends. Either they will never appear or, before I can access them, SaveDaily will nab them to pay yet another month's fee.

Not a big deal in my case - I'm estimating we're talking about $1.50 in my case - except that the principle of the thing bugs me.

However, if accrued dividends really do disappear forever on the SaveDaily platform, that might be something that anybody who has significant assets in one of the "declare daily/distribute monthly" funds might want to consider. You might want to try your best to squeeze any redemption of those funds into the small space between the settlement of the distribution at the end of the previous month and the start of the 90% redemption restriction when SaveDaily's fee cycle starts on the 5th. (At least ... my SaveDaily fee is always initiated on the 5th of the month. One other person on this thread also mentioned the 5th as being "fee day" for him as well.)

Ant7
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by Ant7 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:03 pm

cas wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 8:55 am
Ant7 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:38 am
I am also in process of transferring my HSA from BenefitWallet to Fidelity.

After going through similar issues as OP I finally got my investments proceeds transferred to deposit account. I have started in parallel the 60-day-rollover process on Fidelity side and here is the note I now see in my Fidelity account after they received my transfer form:
Action Needed: Fidelity no longer accepts liquidation instructions for transfers from brokerage companies. Please contact BENEFIT WALLET and provide liquidation instructions, then contact Fidelity at 800-800-6890, option 1, 2 at your earliest convenience.
Any suggestions on where to go from here?
That is certainly a disturbing report. Thanks for telling us.

I have couple of thoughts/questions:

1. How "in parallel" were your actions? Is it possible that Fidelity was prompt, BenefitWallet was (most assuredly, definitely!) NOT prompt, and that Fidelity made the request for transfer of funds before all of the funds had successfully made it out of the SaveDaily side? So then BenefitWallet told Fidelity that you still had assets over on the SaveDaily side, and the Fidelity message is indicating (not quite clearly) that you need all the assets to be in the BenefitWallet deposit account before anything can happen? Maybe Fidelity can provide clarification if you call them.

2. Can you clarify exactly what you tried to do? You say you sent Fidelity their "transfer form," which is used to initiate a trustee-to-trustee transfer. But then you say you were trying to do a "60-day-rollover." (The "60 day rollover" method of getting funds from one HSA vendor to another is a different method than the "trustee to trustee transfer" method.) For a 60-day-rollover, you would need to give Fidelity a deposit form (filled out in a special way), rather than a transfer form. The details and terminology of this is certainly confusing, but is it possible that the problem is a mismatch between the method you want to use and the form you sent Fidelity?

For some more description on how to use the "60 day rollover" method, see hoppy08520's excellent post:
"Tips for closing out BenefitWallet HSA via direct rollover to new HSA" viewtopic.php?t=241923

(Although ... warning ... if you use hoppy08520's method be very, very, VERY careful that your BenefitWallet balance does not have a new monthly fee withdrawn from it while a check is in transit, thus causing the check to bounce. This is a new, apparently common "gotcha" I'm coming across in the research I'm doing, but I'm not far enough along to write an update yet.)

Also ... (warning: signs of paranoia ahead) ... what I fear is that Fidelity may have experienced that trustee-to-trustee transfers allow BenefitWallet to sink too much of Fidelity employee's time into a months-long black hole ... and that the message is a sign that they are now prohibiting using the trustee-to-trustee transfer method with BenefitWallet. But ... before jumping unnecessarily to that conclusion, let's explore easier explanations like the ones I mentioned above.
I see how you got confused by my post. In my defense it was 2AM, I was tired, sleepy and frustrated.

1. I started 2 processes in parallel as I said. However at the time Fidelity received my mailed Transfer form (on 1.16.2018), was 2 day after all my funds were in BenefitWallet deposit account.

2. 60-day rollover was definitely used wrong in my post. I initiated broker to broker transfer. Everything was pre - populated so all i did was to sign the document and mail it.

My next step is to call Fidelity and see what they have to say

lstone19
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by lstone19 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:05 pm

cas wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 11:46 am
Here's another mystery related to the "Sell All" of my Vanguard Total Bond Market: my partial-month accrued dividends are still missing-in-action. (I confirmed in the Total Bond prospectus that the dividends are
declared daily and distributed monthly. [ . . .] You generally will continue earning dividends until the first business day following your trade date

When shares of a "declare daily/distribute monthly" fund are sold in my personal accounts at vanguard.com, I'm pretty sure the accrued dividends related to the sold shares show up in my account the day after the sale. (I'm positive they show up the next day for money market funds. I've never done a "sell all shares" of Total Bond on vanguard.com, so I'm not 100% sure.)

But ... with this sale of shares via SaveDaily ... the dividends weren't ACHed over to my BenefitWallet account with the rest of the sale proceeds. They haven't made an appearance in my SaveDaily balance.
Two data points:
In late 2017, I briefly had my HSA at Alliant (within a month of moving it there, they announced they were getting out of the HSA business). When I sold the investments at SaveDaily (in a declare daily, pay monthly bond fund), I never received the partial month dividend.

Last month, when I started shutting down my HSAbank HSA to move it to Fidelity, dividends on the declare daily, pay monthly bond fund I had it in at TDA were paid on 12/31 (with delayed posting until 1/2). At that point, the HSAbank cash account was still open so I could transfer the dividends.

My experience with declare daily funds has been mixed. At Fidelity, I've found that Fidelity funds pay out the accrued dividend the same or next day but 3rd party funds don't pay until month end. So I think generally, don't expect a declare daily, pay monthly fund to pay out as soon as you close out the position.

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Mian
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by Mian » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:09 pm

Greetings,
I was going to transfer my BenefitWallet HSA account to Fido, but given the excruciating tribulations everyone who has done so has experienced, I'm going to wait . Hopefully it'll get easier in time. Good luck everybody!

rantk81
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by rantk81 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:47 pm

Mian wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 12:09 pm
Greetings,
I was going to transfer my BenefitWallet HSA account to Fido, but given the excruciating tribulations everyone who has done so has experienced, I'm going to wait . Hopefully it'll get easier in time. Good luck everybody!
If it is an employer-sponsored account, the best approach might be to lobby HR to move everyone over to Fido at the same time :D

Ant7
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by Ant7 » Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:52 pm

Ant7 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:38 am
I am also in process of transferring my HSA from BenefitWallet to Fidelity.

After going through similar issues as OP I finally got my investments proceeds transferred to deposit account. I have started in parallel the 60-day-rollover process on Fidelity side and here is the note I now see in my Fidelity account after they received my transfer form:
Action Needed: Fidelity no longer accepts liquidation instructions for transfers from brokerage companies. Please contact BENEFIT WALLET and provide liquidation instructions, then contact Fidelity at 800-800-6890, option 1, 2 at your earliest convenience.
Any suggestions on where to go from here?

The worst part is that account is about $20k, I have missed recent market recovery and I do not have the " switch-a-roo" option since my AA is 100% stocks

Update on above:

I called Fidelity. It seem as the note I received means that Fidelity are not authorized to instruct BenefitWallet to liquidate my positions there. It seem as Fidelity pushed the transfer request to BenefitWallet and received the response that there are investments tied to the accounts and that the transfer request was rejected.

My timeline:

Benefitwallet:
1.10.2019 late PM - successfully submitted full amount investment redemption. That was supposed to transfer proceeds from SaveDaily to BenefitWallet. (this was my 5th attempt after enduring all those 90% and balance mismatch errors described in this post several days prior)
1.15.2019 - received notification that transaction was completed. Logged in and confirmed that SaveDaily blance is 0 and BenefitWallet deposit account reflect the updated balance.

Fidelity:
1.7.2019 opened the account
1.11.2019 printed transfer form and sent via regular mail.
1.16.2019 - Transfers tracking page showed notification that form was received
1.16.2019 - Transfers tracking page showed notification: "Fidelity no longer accepts liquidation instructions ... "
1.17.2019 - called HSA department line (800-544-3716). - After explaining that all investment are liquidated at BenefitWallet, - Fidelity rep said that they are re-submitting transfer to BenefitWallet during the call and said to allow 7-10 business days for processing.

will keep you posted

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cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Fri Jan 18, 2019 8:11 am

100% of my assets are now out of SaveDaily (except for the partial month accrued interest-dividends that are missing-in-action), I can see them in my BenefitWallet deposit account balance, and I can see the final expected ACH transfer from SaveDaily posted in the BenefitWallet Transactions area. (The ACH transfers seem to post a day after I can see the BenefitWallet balance go up. I suspect the funds may not be exactly accessible during that day.)

Total time: 13 total days, 10 business days.

I think I should be excited and happy, but I'm mostly just ... tired.

Thank you!!!! to everyone who has posted, helped, and even lurked (there are quite a few views on this thread.) Your help and company has made an ambiguous, long process easier for me and, I'm sure, for others in the future.

But ... we aren't done yet. I (and others) still need to get funds out of BenefitWallet's deposit account and over to Fidelity's HSA.

I'm currently at the stage of waiting for a BenefitWallet checkbook to arrive (ordered it online on 1/15) with the thought that I'll probably go the "60 day rollover" route using a check. (I got nervous about a trustee-to-trustee transfer after reading PrettyCoolWorkshop's account of a trustee-to-trustee transfer, plus various Better Business Bureau complaints about BenefitWallet's delay tactics on pretty much everything. (None of the BBB complaints/reviews were about trustee-to-trustee transfers specifically.))

But I may well have researched too much and psyched myself out unnecessarily. It wouldn't be the first time.

JimB, Ant7, beebog, and any lurkers who are attempting a trustee-to-trustee transfer or 60 day rollover: I would be VERY grateful if you continue to use this thread to update your progress on getting your money out of BenefitWallet and over to Fidelity (or any other vendor's HSA).

I hope we can collectively figure out the fastest, least stressful, least error-prone way to get HSA assets out of BenefitWallet and over to Fidelity. Given the number of views (and the rate at which they increase after every new post on the thread), I think there are probably quite a few lurkers out there who want to follow in our footsteps.

Ant7
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by Ant7 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:47 am

Ant7 wrote:
Thu Jan 17, 2019 1:52 pm


Update on above:

I called Fidelity. It seem as the note I received means that Fidelity are not authorized to instruct BenefitWallet to liquidate my positions there. It seem as Fidelity pushed the transfer request to BenefitWallet and received the response that there are investments tied to the accounts and that the transfer request was rejected.

My timeline:

Benefitwallet:
1.10.2019 late PM - successfully submitted full amount investment redemption. That was supposed to transfer proceeds from SaveDaily to BenefitWallet. (this was my 5th attempt after enduring all those 90% and balance mismatch errors described in this post several days prior)
1.15.2019 - received notification that transaction was completed. Logged in and confirmed that SaveDaily blance is 0 and BenefitWallet deposit account reflect the updated balance.

Fidelity:
1.7.2019 opened the account
1.11.2019 printed transfer form and sent via regular mail.
1.16.2019 - Transfers tracking page showed notification that form was received
1.16.2019 - Transfers tracking page showed notification: "Fidelity no longer accepts liquidation instructions ... "
1.17.2019 - called HSA department line (800-544-3716). - After explaining that all investment are liquidated at BenefitWallet, - Fidelity rep said that they are re-submitting transfer to BenefitWallet during the call and said to allow 7-10 business days for processing.

will keep you posted
01/17/19 - status of my transfer on Fidelity side has changed to "in process". Estimated Completion Date: 02/05/19. I also see this note on transfer progress page: "Fidelity has finished processing your transfer request, and has sent it to Benefit Wallet for review"

Topic Author
cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:08 pm

Ant7 wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:47 am
01/17/19 - status of my transfer on Fidelity side has changed to "in process". Estimated Completion Date: 02/05/19. I also see this note on transfer progress page: "Fidelity has finished processing your transfer request, and has sent it to Benefit Wallet for review"
Thanks for the update.

A question for you (and beebog if s(he) sees this): Do you have to pay a monthly fee to BenefitWallet? (This is a separate fee from the SaveDaily fee.)

(I've seen mention of several different possible fee set-ups with BenefitWallet. Depends what your employer negotiated. Some people's employer pays the monthly fee. Some people pay a fee only if their deposit account balance is below some level (I've seen both $3000 and $1000 mentioned as the level). Some people (me) have a fee regardless of the deposit account balance.)

The reason I'm asking: (warning: signs of paranoia ahead, so don't get too worried)

The Better Business Bureau reviews and complaints for BenefitWallet (which admittedly are a subset of all transactions that happen with BenefitWallet and consist 100% of upset customers) have a distinct sub-theme where BenefitWallet attempts to extract one last $25 fee (for nonsufficient funds) when people try to zero out/close their account. Sometimes at least part of the blame lies with the customer for not paying scrupulous attention to dates/timing, but sometimes the blame seems to lie entirely with BenefitWallet (example: Duane D on 10/22/2018 at https://www.bbb.org/us/nj/secaucus/prof ... er-reviews)

Exact details vary, but the generic outline of multiple similar complaints/reviews is this: (again: unknown the percentage of people who encounter this problem to the percentage who have everything go just fine):

-Account holder calls BenefitWallet and says they want to close their account

-BenefitWallet says they are unable to close an account until it has a $0 balance, but that (for a $25 custodian check fee), they will send the person a check for their remaining balance. Once the check has been deposited, and the account balance has gone to $0, then the account can be closed. Account holder agrees to pay the $25 to have BenefitWallet issue the check.

-Often, the check never arrives. Person calls BenefitWallet multiple times. Weeks go by.

-Finally, near the end of a month, BenefitWallet finally cuts a check for the available balance in the account and mails the check.

-While the check is in the mail, the end of the month comes, and BenefitWallet (even though though they are going through this multi-step process of getting the account closed) deducts their monthly fee.

- Account holder receives the check in the mail. After all the hassle, they joyfully sprint down to the bank and deposit the check.

- Five or so days later the bank calls them, tells them the check bounced, and that there will be a $20 (or something) fee. Shocked, the person logs into the BenefitWallet account to find that the check bounced because BenefitWallet reduced the available balance (the monthly fee) *after* they cut the check that they knew perfectly well was going to be used to close out the account. BenefitWallet has also levied a $25 fee for nonsufficient funds.

- Person then gets to either fight with BenefitWallet about refunding the NSF fee, issuing a new check (rinse, wash, repeat) or throw up their hands in despair and find some other way to get their balance to $0 so that the account can be closed.

There is too little data from just BBB complaints to tell whether this is idiocy or planned scamming on BenefitWallet's part.

The question that occurs to my paranoid mind: Would BenefitWallet dare be idiotic or scam-y enough to try this little scenario with a trustee-to-trustee transfer (which involves BenefitWallet cutting a check, pretty much on a schedule they choose, and mailing it to Fidelity), where the receiving trustee is a Big Dog like Fidelity?

Since it is the 17th now and your estimated completion date is the 5th of next month ... if you have a monthly fee, lucky you may get to be a test case. (But ... please don't worry too much. BenefitWallet would have to be really idiotic to pick a fight with Fidelity, and you'll have Fidelity on your side.)

Ant7
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by Ant7 » Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:58 pm

cas wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:08 pm
Ant7 wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:47 am
01/17/19 - status of my transfer on Fidelity side has changed to "in process". Estimated Completion Date: 02/05/19. I also see this note on transfer progress page: "Fidelity has finished processing your transfer request, and has sent it to Benefit Wallet for review"
Thanks for the update.

A question for you (and beebog if s(he) sees this): Do you have to pay a monthly fee to BenefitWallet? (This is a separate fee from the SaveDaily fee.)

...............................

The question that occurs to my paranoid mind: Would BenefitWallet dare be idiotic or scam-y enough to try this little scenario with a trustee-to-trustee transfer (which involves BenefitWallet cutting a check, pretty much on a schedule they choose, and mailing it to Fidelity), where the receiving trustee is a Big Dog like Fidelity?

Since it is the 17th now and your estimated completion date is the 5th of next month ... if you have a monthly fee, lucky you may get to be a test case. (But ... please don't worry too much. BenefitWallet would have to be really idiotic to pick a fight with Fidelity, and you'll have Fidelity on your side.)
I recently left my former employer and was charged $3.25 fee every last day of the month for last 4 months. I expect next charge on 1.31.2019

Thank you for pointing out about this possible issue. Any suggestions?

Topic Author
cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Fri Jan 18, 2019 2:52 pm

Ant7 wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:58 pm
I recently left my former employer and was charged $3.25 fee every last day of the month for last 4 months. I expect next charge on 1.31.2019

Thank you for pointing out about this possible issue. Any suggestions?
PrettyCoolWorkshop (above in this thread) sort of implies that maybe you'll see something in your online BenefitWallet transactions when they cut the check. (PrettyCoolWorkshop seems to have seen it on a quarterly statement, rather than online, but sounds like maybe he/she wasn't looking online.)
[BenefitWallet] claimed to have cut me a check 2 months into the process, but that does not match my account statements, which do show the check they finally sent 6 months into the process, but no earlier check from 2 months in.
So, for now, I'd keep an eye on your BenefitWallet account and see if anything about a check being cut shows up somewhere (maybe Transactions?).

If you see that the check is cut towards the end of the month, then keep on eagle eye on whether your "available balance" goes down on 1/31 or you see a fee transaction post in Transactions (might not see it post until 2/1).

If you see that sequence of events ... check is cut then fee posts later ... I'd immediately contact Fidelity, explain the situation, and ask what they want to do.

In most cases I've seen (admittedly few) where BenefitWallet charges a $3.25 monthly fee, the fee is waived if the balance is above a certain amount (e.g. $1000 or $3000). (My fee is $2.95, but never waived at any balance.) I seem to recall that you said you moved $20,000ish into your deposit account from SaveDaily. So, your fee may be waived while all that cash is sitting there.

beebog
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by beebog » Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:05 pm

cas wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:08 pm
Ant7 wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 11:47 am
01/17/19 - status of my transfer on Fidelity side has changed to "in process". Estimated Completion Date: 02/05/19. I also see this note on transfer progress page: "Fidelity has finished processing your transfer request, and has sent it to Benefit Wallet for review"
Thanks for the update.

A question for you (and beebog if s(he) sees this): Do you have to pay a monthly fee to BenefitWallet? (This is a separate fee from the SaveDaily fee.)

(I've seen mention of several different possible fee set-ups with BenefitWallet. Depends what your employer negotiated. Some people's employer pays the monthly fee. Some people pay a fee only if their deposit account balance is below some level (I've seen both $3000 and $1000 mentioned as the level). Some people (me) have a fee regardless of the deposit account balance.)
I have a fee only if my balance is below $1,000. I always made sure I left that amount behind whenever I moved money into SaveDaily. So I guess I need to pay attention to when they actually transfer the money to Fidelity and make sure I get it closed. I would think they couldn't charge a fee on a zero balance account, but I'd rather not take the risk. Based on what others have said I am assuming I will be charged $25 for the trustee-trustee transaction.

Topic Author
cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:04 am

beebog wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:05 pm

I have a fee only if my balance is below $1,000. [. . .] Based on what others have said I am assuming I will be charged $25 for the trustee-trustee transaction.
Thanks, beebog. From one of your previous posts, it sounds like you are a few days ahead of Ant7 in the trustee-trustee transfer process to Fidelity. Sounds like you are likely safe from the bounced-check-due-to-fee timing game, but if you happen to notice BenefitWallet give any online indication that a check has been *cut* (as opposed to deposited/redeemed by Fidelity), I suspect Ant7 would be happy to know what to look for.

General hint to anyone who wants to confirm what their fee arrangement with BenefitWallet is:

- Log in to your BenefitWallet account
- Click on the "Resource Center" link (up toward the top right of the page)
- Scroll around the Resource Page until you find the "Account Disclosure Forms" sub-box. (Mine is on the bottom-right of the page - have to scroll a bit to get there)
- Click on the "Rate and Fees Schedule"

Mine shows my $2.95 monthly fee, so I think the fee schedule you see will be customized to the specific contract that your employer negotiated with BenefitWallet.

Mine also shows a $25 fee for "Custodian Check Issuance Fee". I don't know for sure, but I think that is their fee that applies both if you initiate a trustee-to-trustee transfer (and they have to cut a check) and if you call them and ask them to cut a check for the remainder of your balance and send it to you.

rantk81
Posts: 239
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by rantk81 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:02 am

Just dug up an article I recall reading a while back --

https://thefinancebuff.com/how-to-rollo ... r-fee.html

This appears to be a way to avoid transfer fees and avoid error-prone trustee-to-trustee transfers.

The gist of it is:

1) Sell all investments and move them over into the "cash part" of your HSA.
2) Wait until all transactions have settled, including any pending dividends or mutual fund distributions
3) Request an ACH disbursement of your entire HSA cash balance directly into your checking account.
4) You have 60 days to deposit the funds into a new HSA.

This can only be done once per every rolling-365-day period.

Topic Author
cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:24 am

rantk81 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:02 am
J
1) Sell all investments and move them over into the "cash part" of your HSA.
2) Wait until all transactions have settled, including any pending dividends or mutual fund distributions
3) Request an ACH disbursement of your entire HSA cash balance directly into your checking account.
4) You have 60 days to deposit the funds into a new HSA.
WARNING!!! on this approach for BenefitWallet: BenefitWallet may limit the amount you can ACH to your own bank account.

(And trying to do multiple ACH transactions over several days to get the entire balance into your bank account will put you at odds with the IRS, with potentially catastrophic results to your HSA balance.) See previous post in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=269173&newpost=432 ... d#p4323717 .

In this post, a BBB complaint is quoted where BenefitWallet themselves say that they limit ACH withdrawals to 80% of the account balance (among other, more unspecified-for-security-reasons limitations)

Caveat: no one on this thread (or elsewhere on Bogleheads that I can find) has reported an actual experience with trying to empty their BenefitWallet HSA using ACH. Who knows what would actually happen.

HOWEVER ... for an approach to a 60-day-rollover from BenefitWallet that definitely worked, please see hoppy08520's excellent post:

"Tips for closing out BenefitWallet HSA via direct rollover to new HSA" , viewtopic.php?t=241923

(The difference in hoppy's approach is that a BenefitWallet check, rather than an ACH withdrawal, was used.)
Last edited by cas on Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

lstone19
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by lstone19 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:30 am

cas wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 1:08 pm
-Finally, near the end of a month, BenefitWallet finally cuts a check for the available balance in the account and mails the check.

-While the check is in the mail, the end of the month comes, and BenefitWallet (even though though they are going through this multi-step process of getting the account closed) deducts their monthly fee.

- Account holder receives the check in the mail. After all the hassle, they joyfully sprint down to the bank and deposit the check.

- Five or so days later the bank calls them, tells them the check bounced, and that there will be a $20 (or something) fee. Shocked, the person logs into the BenefitWallet account to find that the check bounced because BenefitWallet reduced the available balance (the monthly fee) *after* they cut the check that they knew perfectly well was going to be used to close out the account. BenefitWallet has also levied a $25 fee for nonsufficient funds.
I'm somewhat confused by this. When it says "BenefitWallet finally cuts a check", on whose account is this check drawn? To me, "cuts a check" means the check is drawn on them (like a bank Cashier's Check), not on the individual account (which you could do yourself if you had a check-writing for the account). Does the money still show in the participant's account or has it gone to zero? (I'm currently in the process of closing my HSAbank account and doing a custodian-to-custodian transfer to Fidelity. My account at HSAbank went to zero a week ago and now no longer shows up on-line but the money has not shown up at Fidelity. My assumption is HSAbank moved the money to their own account and wrote a check on their own account that is currently on its way to Fidelity).

If the former, why is the check bouncing? The former is what I would expect. I've never had to use BenefitWallet (TG) but in the past when I had Payflex pay a provider directly, the money left my account to theirs and the check was the drawn on their master account. The same happens when I use my bank's Bill Pay service.

If the latter, that implies they're printing a special check drawn on your account complete with the MICR encoding at the bottom on demand (they're not going to have hundreds of thousands of checks sitting around for every account). That's a bizarre way to close an account and not typical bank practice. Plus IANAL but they wrote the check, not the account owner - they should be responsible for the check (do they even have the legal right to write a check drawn directly on the participant's account?).

rantk81
Posts: 239
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by rantk81 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:31 am

cas wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:24 am

WARNING!!! on this approach for BenefitWallet: BenefitWallet may limit the amount you can ACH to your own bank account.

(And trying to do multiple ACH transactions over several days to get the entire balance into your bank account will put you at odds with the IRS, with potentially catastrophic results to your HSA balance.)
Not a tax adviser or lawyer, but...

I think an uncooperative HSA trustee who refuses (for their own internal policies/limits) to execute your directives would be something that would easily pass muster with a "Letter of Explanation" to the IRS. (E.g. ACH'ing out in batches to get around artificial limitations of a HSA trustee)

Topic Author
cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:39 am

lstone19 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:30 am

I'm somewhat confused by this. When it says "BenefitWallet finally cuts a check", on whose account is this check drawn? To me, "cuts a check" means the check is drawn on them (like a bank Cashier's Check), not on the individual account (which you could do yourself if you had a check-writing for the account). Does the money still show in the participant's account or has it gone to zero?
It appears (to me ... I could be misinterpreting) from BBB complaint descriptions (and BenefitWallet responses that more or less comfirm the accuracy of the general outlines of the complaint) that they write it on the individual account and the balance continues to show until the check is deposited/processed at another bank. But, who knows - none of this is even remotely mentioned in any online BenefitWallet documentation that I can find, so this is all reverse-engineering from little scraps of quasi-reliable internet accounts.

Example: ( https://www.bbb.org/us/nj/secaucus/prof ... er-reviews )
Duane D
10/22/2018

Benefit Wallet was VERY unreasonable and rigid in reviewing charges they applied when I closed my account. I called to close the account, they told me to request a refund for the available balance by check, the check to be delivered by mail. They did not indicate they could close the account then. In the intervening time a monthly service charge was applied ($3.25 per month!!!) after the check issued. I called them October 1 to straighten close the account. Customer service said they would waive the 3.25 fee. I tried to cash the check however they put a stop on it because the monthly charge WAS NOT waived as I had been told. For the stopped check they charged a $25 insufficient funds fee and my bank charged another $20! After an appeal, and a second appeal, they say sorry the fees stand. Now I have appealed a 3rd time and the customer service person said the $25 fee would be returned for certain. I asked her to please make a note of that promise in my case file. Now I will wait for that credit for 48 hours!. Because the account it now closed, she told me no monthly service charges, (I asked her to make a note of that promise also) because I need to AGAIN request the balance of the account in a mailed check. The end of the month is near. I wonder if additional promises will be broken, because if I do not get the refund done quickly, so I can request a check, and hopefully cash it before the end of the month, they just might charge me another $3.35...and stop the check... It's like groundhog day until the balance is drained!

BenefitWallet Response
10/26/2018

We apologize if your experience with your Health Savings Account (HSA) was anything other than exceptional. This remains our goal, so we would like to clarify to bring positive resolution for you. This BBB complaint notification was sent to BenefitWallet on 10/25/2018, after the matter was already resolved. Please accept our apologies for any inconvenience this may have caused. Our records show your insufficient funds fee was reversed as a courtesy and credited back to the HSA on 10/22. As with any checking account, there is the possibility that you can overdraw your account. The monthly maintenance fee has applied to your account on the last business day of the month, for that month, since 1/29/2016. You can review your account activity and your rate and fee schedule at mybenefitwallet.com. Please continue to monitor your balance when you empty your account. Should you have any additional questions, please call us at 877-472-4200, Mon - Fri: 8:00 am to 11:00 pm Eastern time, Weekends: 9:00 am to 6:00 pm ET.
Last edited by cas on Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

Topic Author
cas
Posts: 649
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:47 am

rantk81 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:31 am
Not a tax adviser or lawyer, but...

I think an uncooperative HSA trustee who refuses (for their own internal policies/limits) to execute your directives would be something that would easily pass muster with a "Letter of Explanation" to the IRS. (E.g. ACH'ing out in batches to get around artificial limitations of a HSA trustee)
If you are interested in a more thorough discussion of this "multiple withdrawals = IRS woe" issue, SpiritRider and others debate it here: "reasons to avoid indirect HSA rollover?", viewtopic.php?t=266089

rantk81
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by rantk81 » Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:57 am

cas wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:47 am
rantk81 wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:31 am
Not a tax adviser or lawyer, but...

I think an uncooperative HSA trustee who refuses (for their own internal policies/limits) to execute your directives would be something that would easily pass muster with a "Letter of Explanation" to the IRS. (E.g. ACH'ing out in batches to get around artificial limitations of a HSA trustee)
If you are interested in a more thorough discussion of this "multiple withdrawals = IRS woe" issue, SpiritRider and others debate it here: "reasons to avoid indirect HSA rollover?", viewtopic.php?t=266089
Thanks for digging up that thread. It was an interesting read. I still stand by my contention that if push-came-to-shove, you'd win this argument due to the language in the IRS Pub. Furthermore, it likely wouldn't even get to that point, since all of the "batched" withdrawals are aggregated on a 1099-SA anyway.

Topic Author
cas
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Sun Jan 20, 2019 8:19 am

SaveDaily investment liquidation hint: If you are contemplating switching from BenefitWallet/SaveDaily to another HSA vendor, make sure you turn off the "automatic investment" option*** on SaveDaily well in advance.

I was reading the Account Services Agreement I signed with SaveDaily to see if there was anything in there about the redemption restrictions I encountered (no) or what would happen to my final partial-month dividends from a declare daily/pay monthly fund (no). But I did run across this:
Please be aware that investments must remain in your account for fifteen (15) days before they are available for redemption. Therefore, the mutual funds listed on your "My Accounts" page will show two balances, "Balance," and "Available Balance." The Available Balance represents the amount that has been in your Account for more than 15 days and is therefore available for redemption. We cannot honor requests for redemption of more than the Available Balance. If you wish to redeem shares in an amount greater than your Available Balance, you will have to wait until the entire amount you wish to redeem becomes available.
Note: this was NOT the reason for the redemption delays I personally encountered. My employer hasn't offered HSA-eligible health insurance for years, so I turned off my automatic investment option at SaveDaily years ago (because there were no new incoming dollars to invest.)

Although ... it does occur to me to wonder how this 15 day requirement interacts with the mutual funds that pay out dividends monthly (bond and money market funds), where the monthly dividends are automatically reinvested back into more shares of the fund. (This automatic reinvestiment is described in the SaveDaily Account Agreement and is something you have no choice about.) My "Balance" and "Available Balance" were the same for Vanguard Total Bond Market when I first started trying to liquidate the mutual fund on January 7, so it appears that the shares of Total Bond that resulted from the reinvestment of dividends that were paid on December 31 were exempt from this 15 day requirement.

***"automatic investment" option: SaveDaily has an option you can set up to either
-automatically sweep all funds over a minimum in your BenefitWallet depost account into a SaveDaily investment.
-dollar-cost-average into investments by pulling a certain amount from your BenefitWallet deposit account on a regular periodic basis (e.g. every month) and invest it in a SaveDaily investment option.

Ant7
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by Ant7 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:00 am

cas wrote:
Sat Jan 19, 2019 7:04 am
beebog wrote:
Fri Jan 18, 2019 6:05 pm

I have a fee only if my balance is below $1,000. [. . .] Based on what others have said I am assuming I will be charged $25 for the trustee-trustee transaction.
Thanks, beebog. From one of your previous posts, it sounds like you are a few days ahead of Ant7 in the trustee-trustee transfer process to Fidelity. Sounds like you are likely safe from the bounced-check-due-to-fee timing game, but if you happen to notice BenefitWallet give any online indication that a check has been *cut* (as opposed to deposited/redeemed by Fidelity), I suspect Ant7 would be happy to know what to look for.
This is what I have in my fee schedule:

Monthly Service Charge for average monthly balance of $1000.00 or less............... $ 3.50

After transfer from investment account my balance is way over 1000, so if I understand this correctly I will not be charged any monthly fee.
Last edited by Ant7 on Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

Ant7
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by Ant7 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:17 am

Cas,

I have also noticed something interesting. When I log into my online account I see "Closed" right next to my HSA account number. I wonder if this is due to pending transfer initiated by Fidelity. Can you please confirm what do you see there in your account?


see screenshot here:
https://imgur.com/a/C42NcTr

Topic Author
cas
Posts: 649
Joined: Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:41 am

Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by cas » Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:00 am

Ant7 wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 1:17 am
I have also noticed something interesting. When I log into my online account I see "Closed" right next to my HSA account number. I wonder if this is due to pending transfer initiated by Fidelity. Can you please confirm what do you see there in your account?
Mine says "Open". I think your "Closed" is an excellent sign that things are progressing.

I notice that your balance is apparently NOT $0, since you needed to blank it out in the image. (There was the discussion up above about how most financial institutions avoid the "surprise bounced check" problem at account close-out by reducing the balance to $0 immediately upon issuing the final check containing the full account balance, rather than waiting for the receiving institution to redeem the check. There was also the specific data point that lstone19's HSA Bank account balance had gone to $0 while the check from HSA Bank to Fidelity was in the mail.)

Your non-$0 balance is another hint that BenefitWallet does not follow this usual method (thus opening up the possibility of the "surprise bounced check" problem). Hopefully the "Closed" serves the same function.

Either way, I think you'll be fine (BenefitWallet won't yank the fee out from underneath you while the close-out check is in the mail to Fidelity), since your fee schedule says that your fee is waived for balances above $1000.

Thanks for the update!

P.S. For what it is worth, my BenefitWallet -> Fidelity status is unchanged. I ordered a checkbook from BenefitWallet 7 days ago, planning to try the 60-day-rollover method via a check made out directly to Fidelity (as described on the Fidelity website). The checkbook has not yet arrived, but - especially given that there was a banking/mail holiday yesterday - it is probably a bit early to expect it. I haven't seen BenefitWallet deduct the $10 fee for the checkbook under "Transactions", but, since it is the first time I've requested a checkbook, the fee schedule indicates that they may waive the fee.

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hoppy08520
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Re: BenefitWallet HSA - anyone successfully liquidated 100% of investments? (update: also transfer/rollover issues)

Post by hoppy08520 » Wed Jan 23, 2019 9:43 am

cas wrote:
Wed Jan 23, 2019 7:00 am
.. I ordered a checkbook from BenefitWallet 7 days ago, planning to try the 60-day-rollover method via a check made out directly to Fidelity (as described on the Fidelity website). The checkbook has not yet arrived, but - especially given that there was a banking/mail holiday yesterday - it is probably a bit early to expect it. I haven't seen BenefitWallet deduct the $10 fee for the checkbook under "Transactions", but, since it is the first time I've requested a checkbook, the fee schedule indicates that they may waive the fee.
FYI, a year (or 2?) ago when I asked BenefitWallet for a checkbook for the same purpose, they didn't charge me. Supposedly you get your first checkbook free, and you only need to pay for replacement checkbooks. I told them I never got my first checkbook (which is true) so they mailed me a checkbook for free when I requested it over the phone. Now that I think about it, it might have been just 1 check (which was all I needed and all I asked for) but I can't remember. Good luck

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