Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

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RickBoglehead
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Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by RickBoglehead » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:15 am

With the recent changes at Vanguard (shifting some funds from Investor shares to Admiral shares), I wondered if this applied to solo 401Ks held at Vanguard. I attempted to do a conversion on the Vanguard site and none of those holdings showed up.

When I clicked on one of the fund holdings, i.e. Investor Shares, it showed that it was closed, which got my antenna up. So I emailed my Flagship rep and asked, and got a "nope" response. Shortly thereafter he said that he had just received a memo and that in fact I was correct - these changes are applicable to solo 401Ks at Vanguard. However, the change cannot be made by the investor, it needs to be made by Vanguard.

Didn't connect with my rep Weds (has to be on the phone, can't give email authorization), but I'll post back when I get this done no later than next week, and advise of any issues or concerns.

This will be a nice cost savings.
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by PFInterest » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:17 am

yup.
now if only they accepted rollovers....

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by JamesSFO » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:49 am

Nice!

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by sailaway » Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:55 am

The customer can't do much of anything in Vanguard solo 401k. Even the button labelled "update address" doesn't actually update the address that must be mailed in.

I guess I have calls to make next week.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by terran » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:04 am

PFInterest wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:17 am
yup.
now if only they accepted rollovers....
Is it that they don't accept rollovers or that they don't accept rollovers from IRAs? I've been happy with Fidelity, but with the Vanguard solo 401(k) offering admiral shares now they'd be in the most attractive option offering Roth if I ever needed that, so it would be good to know if they'd accept a rollover from the Fidelity solo 401(k).

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Atgard » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:05 am

I do see the old shares are listed as "closed to new investors." But I'm still getting a message saying "Admiral Shares may not be held in this type of account."

So perhaps it can be done manually by Vanguard? Thanks for bringing this up, I guess I'll try calling on Monday unless anyone else has an update. Very good news if it works out!

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by scfr » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:38 am

Thank you! We'll also be calling next week to see if we can make this change for a nice cost savings.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by RickBoglehead » Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:40 am

Atgard wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:05 am
I do see the old shares are listed as "closed to new investors." But I'm still getting a message saying "Admiral Shares may not be held in this type of account."

So perhaps it can be done manually by Vanguard? Thanks for bringing this up, I guess I'll try calling on Monday unless anyone else has an update. Very good news if it works out!
Please see my original post... :shock:
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by TIAX » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:16 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:15 am
With the recent changes at Vanguard (shifting some funds from Investor shares to Admiral shares), I wondered if this applied to solo 401Ks held at Vanguard. I attempted to do a conversion on the Vanguard site and none of those holdings showed up.

When I clicked on one of the fund holdings, i.e. Investor Shares, it showed that it was closed, which got my antenna up. So I emailed my Flagship rep and asked, and got a "nope" response. Shortly thereafter he said that he had just received a memo and that in fact I was correct - these changes are applicable to solo 401Ks at Vanguard. However, the change cannot be made by the investor, it needs to be made by Vanguard.

Didn't connect with my rep Weds (has to be on the phone, can't give email authorization), but I'll post back when I get this done no later than next week, and advise of any issues or concerns.

This will be a nice cost savings.
Thanks Rick! Do you know if the 3k minimum applies to admiral shares in an i401k? There was no minimum to buy the investor shares.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Spirit Rider » Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:34 am

PFInterest wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:17 am
now if only they accepted rollovers....
And employee eligibility restrictions so you can hire your kids.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by RickBoglehead » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:00 pm

TIAX wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 11:16 am

Thanks Rick! Do you know if the 3k minimum applies to admiral shares in an i401k? There was no minimum to buy the investor shares.
Pretty clearly there would be none, since the investor shares are no longer available.
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Atgard » Thu Nov 22, 2018 2:27 pm

RickBoglehead wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:40 am
Atgard wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 10:05 am
I do see the old shares are listed as "closed to new investors." But I'm still getting a message saying "Admiral Shares may not be held in this type of account."

So perhaps it can be done manually by Vanguard? Thanks for bringing this up, I guess I'll try calling on Monday unless anyone else has an update. Very good news if it works out!
Please see my original post... :shock:
I read it and was referencing what you said, and thanking you for bringing it to our attention. I also see the Vanguard website still explicitly says it can't be done in big red letters, and that, after getting conflicting info from the rep, it hasn't actually been done & confirmed yet. Hence my "perhaps."

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by RickBoglehead » Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:57 am

RickBoglehead wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:15 am
With the recent changes at Vanguard (shifting some funds from Investor shares to Admiral shares), I wondered if this applied to solo 401Ks held at Vanguard. I attempted to do a conversion on the Vanguard site and none of those holdings showed up.

When I clicked on one of the fund holdings, i.e. Investor Shares, it showed that it was closed, which got my antenna up. So I emailed my Flagship rep and asked, and got a "nope" response. Shortly thereafter he said that he had just received a memo and that in fact I was correct - these changes are applicable to solo 401Ks at Vanguard. However, the change cannot be made by the investor, it needs to be made by Vanguard.

Didn't connect with my rep Weds (has to be on the phone, can't give email authorization), but I'll post back when I get this done no later than next week, and advise of any issues or concerns.

This will be a nice cost savings.
Just had a 2 minute call with my rep. You have to call, vs. email, because it's a "transaction". He put in an order to convert Total Stock Market Index to Admiral. He initially said that he couldn't convert my two bond funds, then called back and said he could, and did so. So I'm now 100% Admiral in my individual 401K. There are no minimums in individual 401K.
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by southerndoc » Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:41 am

I just opened a Fidelity SE 401(k) so I can roll my SEP into it. I prefer Vanguard because I have my other IRA's with them, but I'm torn whether to stay with Fidelity (probably) vs transferring everything in a year or two to Vanguard. Fidelity now offers some funds with 0% expense ratios.

Not sure how hard it would be to close a SE 401(k) with Fidelity and open one with Vanguard. I'm sure transferring wouldn't be an issue.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by exigent » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:00 am

southerndoc wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:41 am
I just opened a Fidelity SE 401(k) so I can roll my SEP into it. I prefer Vanguard because I have my other IRA's with them, but I'm torn whether to stay with Fidelity (probably) vs transferring everything in a year or two to Vanguard. Fidelity now offers some funds with 0% expense ratios.

Not sure how hard it would be to close a SE 401(k) with Fidelity and open one with Vanguard. I'm sure transferring wouldn't be an issue.
I did this round trip several years ago to facilitate backdoor Roth contributions. Moved traditional IRA funds held at Vanguard into a Solo 401(k) at Fidelity (because Vanguard wouldn’t accept that sort of rollover) and then transferred Solo 401(k) back to Vanguard. I debate about leaving it at Fidelity but ultimately brought it back to Vanguard.

My only regret was lack of Admiral access, but that seems to have been solved.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Atgard » Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:57 am

I also just called Vanguard, it was super easy and the rep was very helpful, just transferred over Investor-class shares to Admiral-class shares with a lower ER. (Trade should go through at close of business today.)

This eliminates one of the few downsides to the Vanguard Individual 401K plan.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by GrowthSeeker » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:18 am

exigent wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 10:00 am
southerndoc wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 9:41 am
I just opened a Fidelity SE 401(k) so I can roll my SEP into it. I prefer Vanguard because I have my other IRA's with them, but I'm torn whether to stay with Fidelity (probably) vs transferring everything in a year or two to Vanguard. Fidelity now offers some funds with 0% expense ratios.

Not sure how hard it would be to close a SE 401(k) with Fidelity and open one with Vanguard. I'm sure transferring wouldn't be an issue.
I did this round trip several years ago to facilitate backdoor Roth contributions. Moved traditional IRA funds held at Vanguard into a Solo 401(k) at Fidelity (because Vanguard wouldn’t accept that sort of rollover) and then transferred Solo 401(k) back to Vanguard. I debate about leaving it at Fidelity but ultimately brought it back to Vanguard.

My only regret was lack of Admiral access, but that seems to have been solved.
If you already have a Vanguard solo 401(k), can you open a new Fidelity solo 401(k) and have simultaneously two solo 401(k) accounts? (if so, I assume you can only contribute to one of them for any given year)
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're NOT out to get you.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Spirit Rider » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:22 pm

GrowthSeeker wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:18 am
If you already have a Vanguard solo 401(k), can you open a new Fidelity solo 401(k) and have simultaneously two solo 401(k) accounts? (if so, I assume you can only contribute to one of them for any given year)
No, you can not have more than a single one-participant 401k plan per business. However, you can "amend" the plan at/to the new provider, rollover the assets and close the old account.

Note: There are still two disadvantages of Vanguard's Individual 401k:
  1. Vanguard does not allow rollovers.
  2. Vanguard does not allow employee eligibility restrictions. Other providers allow you to select those and hire employees < 21 and/or < 1,000 hours/year, including your children.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Nthomas » Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:39 pm

Spirit Rider wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:22 pm
GrowthSeeker wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:18 am
If you already have a Vanguard solo 401(k), can you open a new Fidelity solo 401(k) and have simultaneously two solo 401(k) accounts? (if so, I assume you can only contribute to one of them for any given year)
No, you can not have more than a single one-participant 401k plan per business. However, you can "amend" the plan at/to the new provider, rollover the assets and close the old account.

Note: There are still two disadvantages of Vanguard's Individual 401k:
  1. Vanguard does not allow rollovers.
  2. Vanguard does not allow employee eligibility restrictions. Other providers allow you to select those and hire employees < 21 and/or < 1,000 hours/year, including your children.
I did not realize there was a limitation on the number of accounts as long as you don't exceed the annual contribution limit. So if someone were to have two i401k accounts at different brokerages, what is the best way to handle it? Pick one, call them and have them help you amend the plan and rollover the assets from the other one?

This link states that having multiple plans is ok...i'm confused.
https://www.biggerpockets.com/blogs/344 ... -401k-plan

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Nthomas » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:03 pm

I just called Vanguard and they seem to think it's a big deal to have two different plans and that you should not have more than one under any circumstances. However, I called Schwab and they said as long as you don't contribute more than your maximum annual limit, there is no issue. Perhaps it's specific to Vanguard's plan rules.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by White Coat Investor » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:18 pm

RickBoglehead wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:15 am
With the recent changes at Vanguard (shifting some funds from Investor shares to Admiral shares), I wondered if this applied to solo 401Ks held at Vanguard. I attempted to do a conversion on the Vanguard site and none of those holdings showed up.

When I clicked on one of the fund holdings, i.e. Investor Shares, it showed that it was closed, which got my antenna up. So I emailed my Flagship rep and asked, and got a "nope" response. Shortly thereafter he said that he had just received a memo and that in fact I was correct - these changes are applicable to solo 401Ks at Vanguard. However, the change cannot be made by the investor, it needs to be made by Vanguard.

Didn't connect with my rep Weds (has to be on the phone, can't give email authorization), but I'll post back when I get this done no later than next week, and advise of any issues or concerns.

This will be a nice cost savings.
My Flagship guy didn't get the memo. I spent 40 minutes on the phone (mostly on hold) today while he researched it, calling multiple departments and in the end told me no, you still can't have admiral shares in your individual 401(k). When I told him you'd gotten them, he said he'd keep looking into it and send me a message if something changed. Would you mind PMing me the name of your rep and maybe I can put the two of them in touch?
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Nthomas » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:21 pm

White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:18 pm
RickBoglehead wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:15 am
With the recent changes at Vanguard (shifting some funds from Investor shares to Admiral shares), I wondered if this applied to solo 401Ks held at Vanguard. I attempted to do a conversion on the Vanguard site and none of those holdings showed up.

When I clicked on one of the fund holdings, i.e. Investor Shares, it showed that it was closed, which got my antenna up. So I emailed my Flagship rep and asked, and got a "nope" response. Shortly thereafter he said that he had just received a memo and that in fact I was correct - these changes are applicable to solo 401Ks at Vanguard. However, the change cannot be made by the investor, it needs to be made by Vanguard.

Didn't connect with my rep Weds (has to be on the phone, can't give email authorization), but I'll post back when I get this done no later than next week, and advise of any issues or concerns.

This will be a nice cost savings.
My Flagship guy didn't get the memo. I spent 40 minutes on the phone (mostly on hold) today while he researched it, calling multiple departments and in the end told me no, you still can't have admiral shares in your individual 401(k). When I told him you'd gotten them, he said he'd keep looking into it and send me a message if something changed. Would you mind PMing me the name of your rep and maybe I can put the two of them in touch?
I am only Voyager with no assigned rep and I was able to have mine converted about 20 minutes ago. Just call 800.992.7188 and get someone else on the phone (not sure if they track your known numbers and route directly to flagship?). The person I got on the phone was well aware of the change and submitted the exchange in 2-3 minutes. The call took less than 5 minutes.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by middlevb » Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:27 pm

Thank you for posting. Just had our 401k funds transferred over to Admiral. :)

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Spirit Rider » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:05 pm

Nthomas wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:39 pm
I did not realize there was a limitation on the number of accounts as long as you don't exceed the annual contribution limit. This link states that having multiple plans is ok...i'm confused.

https://www.biggerpockets.com/blogs/344 ... -401k-plan
The author in the link is wrong. He did not completely understand what IRS Publication 560 was saying.

First, we have a reference in the SEP IRA section, because you can have multiple SEP IRA plans at the same time. Also, if the SEP IRAs are not a 5305-SEP, you can have one or more SEPs and a one-participant 401k at the same time. The purpose of this paragraph is only to point out that all DC plans of businesses you control are subject to just one annual addition limit.

Chapter 2 Simplified Employee Pensions (SEPs) Page 6, Contribution Limits

More than one plan. If you contribute to a defined contribution plan (defined in chapter 4), annual additions to an account are limited to the lesser of $54,000 or 100% of the participant's compensation. When you figure this limit, you must add your contributions to all defined contribution plans maintained by you. Because a SEP is considered a defined contribution plan for this limit, your contributions to a SEP must be added to your contributions to other defined contribution plans you maintain.

Next, we have a reference in the Qualified Plan section, because you can have a different one-participant 401k for each separate business. A single business can only have a single one-participant 401k plan. The 401k plan document provides the rules the employer operates under. You can not have more than one plan document. Which document's rules would apply to the employer in a given situation??? If you own more than one business, you can have a different one-participant 401k plan for each business. The purpose of this paragraph is only to point out that you must include all one-participant plans in the Form 5500-EZ filing threshold..

Chapter 4 Qualified Plans Page 20, Reporting Requirements

Form 5500-EZ not required. If your one-participant plan (or plans) had total assets of $250,000 or less at the end of the plan year, then you don't have to file Form 5500-EZ for that plan year.[/i]
Nthomas wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 12:39 pm
So if someone were to have two i401k accounts at different brokerages, what is the best way to handle it? Pick one, call them and have them help you amend the plan and rollover the assets from the other one?
There is an amendment option in the adoption agreement. However, amendments can not generally be effective prior to the first of the year. You will have to call and ask, but my experience is that front line CSRs are often ill-informed about complex IRS regulations. I have heard of them telling people; "oh yeah you can have as many one-participant 401k plans as you want." My suggestion is to escalate if at first they don't seem to understand the problem.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by JBTX » Mon Nov 26, 2018 2:54 pm

1. Does this apply to Wellington Fund(s)?

2. Is there a $50k minimum for admiral for wellington?

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Elysium » Mon Nov 26, 2018 3:58 pm

I called up and transferred today from investor to admiral in i401K through the rep, it took less than 5 mins, and they knew what to do.

This is a great relief, not just from a cost savings perspective, but also not having multiple share classes of same fund in different accounts. Kudos to Vanguard for finally stepping up to it!

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by krafty81 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 6:17 pm

Does not work for institutional yet.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by White Coat Investor » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:02 am

This is so frustrating. Maybe I'll call again later today and try to avoid going to my Flagship rep. Anyone know how to request a new Flagship rep? It doesn't seem that having one is doing me any good. I hate to say this reinforces my overall opinion of the average financial professional, but I guess I'd rather make my own mistakes than pay someone else to make them for me. If this is the quality of the folks servicing the Flagship investors, what can the beginning investors (who probably need even more help) expect when they call up with questions?
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by RickBoglehead » Tue Nov 27, 2018 6:11 am

White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:18 pm
RickBoglehead wrote:
Thu Nov 22, 2018 9:15 am
With the recent changes at Vanguard (shifting some funds from Investor shares to Admiral shares), I wondered if this applied to solo 401Ks held at Vanguard. I attempted to do a conversion on the Vanguard site and none of those holdings showed up.

When I clicked on one of the fund holdings, i.e. Investor Shares, it showed that it was closed, which got my antenna up. So I emailed my Flagship rep and asked, and got a "nope" response. Shortly thereafter he said that he had just received a memo and that in fact I was correct - these changes are applicable to solo 401Ks at Vanguard. However, the change cannot be made by the investor, it needs to be made by Vanguard.

Didn't connect with my rep Weds (has to be on the phone, can't give email authorization), but I'll post back when I get this done no later than next week, and advise of any issues or concerns.

This will be a nice cost savings.
My Flagship guy didn't get the memo. I spent 40 minutes on the phone (mostly on hold) today while he researched it, calling multiple departments and in the end told me no, you still can't have admiral shares in your individual 401(k). When I told him you'd gotten them, he said he'd keep looking into it and send me a message if something changed. Would you mind PMing me the name of your rep and maybe I can put the two of them in touch?
Pretty clear that every rep but yours knows what to do. Call back the non-Flagship number.

My rep has announced he is leaving the company, so I will be getting a new rep. :(

Not comfortable giving reps name out, sorry.
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Nthomas » Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:07 am

Call the small business number specifically that I posted above

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by White Coat Investor » Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:49 am

Nthomas wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 8:07 am
Call the small business number specifically that I posted above
That worked great, thanks.

Unfortunately, we have four funds in our two i401(k)s.

Mine was all TIPS. Hers was TIPS, small value, and international small.

The SV was converted. The TIPS cannot (even if you have $50K in it in the i401(k)). And there still aren't admiral shares for International small. As I recall, that's actually why I moved that asset class into this account!

But sounds like I'll probably need to make some new asset location decisions in the future, probably moving TIPS and more IS (back to the Schwab TIPS ETF probably) into my partnership 401(k) (where I use the IS ETF) and moving TSM into my i401(k).

Gotta love the hoops you have to jump through to minimize your costs eh?

Still that phone call should save us $250 a year and growing just on the small value. Better than a kick in the teeth.
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by White Coat Investor » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:58 pm

All right, rearranged assets so that most of the money in our i401(k)s are in admiral shares. Still have to call to make any trades though. Kind of a pain. Hopefully they'll get that worked out in the next few weeks.
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by jhfenton » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:14 pm

White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:49 am
Mine was all TIPS. Hers was TIPS, small value, and international small.

The SV was converted. The TIPS cannot (even if you have $50K in it in the i401(k)). And there still aren't admiral shares for International small. As I recall, that's actually why I moved that asset class into this account!
Admiral shares for VFSVX will be available soon, probably mid-January. Vanguard filed the preliminary prospectus two weeks ago. It shows an ER of 0.16% vs 0.25% for the current Investor shares and 0.13% for the VSS ETF share class.

You should be able to upgrade the VFSVX when the Admiral shares become available. The new ex-US Small Admiral shares will be part of the $3,000 minimum club, and the Investor shares will almost certainly close at that time.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by White Coat Investor » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:06 pm

jhfenton wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:14 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:49 am
Mine was all TIPS. Hers was TIPS, small value, and international small.

The SV was converted. The TIPS cannot (even if you have $50K in it in the i401(k)). And there still aren't admiral shares for International small. As I recall, that's actually why I moved that asset class into this account!
Admiral shares for VFSVX will be available soon, probably mid-January. Vanguard filed the preliminary prospectus two weeks ago. It shows an ER of 0.16% vs 0.25% for the current Investor shares and 0.13% for the VSS ETF share class.

You should be able to upgrade the VFSVX when the Admiral shares become available. The new ex-US Small Admiral shares will be part of the $3,000 minimum club, and the Investor shares will almost certainly close at that time.
Cool!
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by exigent » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:40 pm

White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:49 am
Unfortunately, we have four funds in our two i401(k)s.

Mine was all TIPS. Hers was TIPS, small value, and international small.

The SV was converted. The TIPS cannot (even if you have $50K in it in the i401(k)). And there still aren't admiral shares for International small. As I recall, that's actually why I moved that asset class into this account!

But sounds like I'll probably need to make some new asset location decisions in the future, probably moving TIPS and more IS (back to the Schwab TIPS ETF probably) into my partnership 401(k) (where I use the IS ETF) and moving TSM into my i401(k).
Just to clarify, when you say that you have TIPS in your account, what exactly do you mean? I ask because I have VIPSX (Vanguard Inflation-Protected Securities Fund Investor Shares) and have been dreaming of the day that they'd allow Admiral shares in their Solo 401(k) accounts so I could switch to the VAIPX (same fund, Admiral shares). Are you saying that they don't allow this for some reason? Or something else?

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Elysium » Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:58 pm

exigent wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:40 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:49 am
Unfortunately, we have four funds in our two i401(k)s.

Mine was all TIPS. Hers was TIPS, small value, and international small.

The SV was converted. The TIPS cannot (even if you have $50K in it in the i401(k)). And there still aren't admiral shares for International small. As I recall, that's actually why I moved that asset class into this account!

But sounds like I'll probably need to make some new asset location decisions in the future, probably moving TIPS and more IS (back to the Schwab TIPS ETF probably) into my partnership 401(k) (where I use the IS ETF) and moving TSM into my i401(k).
Just to clarify, when you say that you have TIPS in your account, what exactly do you mean? I ask because I have VIPSX (Vanguard Inflation-Protected Securities Fund Investor Shares) and have been dreaming of the day that they'd allow Admiral shares in their Solo 401(k) accounts so I could switch to the VAIPX (same fund, Admiral shares). Are you saying that they don't allow this for some reason? Or something else?
That is correct. TIPS and other active managed funds with 50K minimum for admiral shares are still not allowed to be converted in i401K accounts. This is another one of the Vanguard quirks. In other words, Vanguard is still not looking at how much money you have to invest when it comes to i401k plans for admiral shares, rather the ones that were made it into their current list of funds were minimums were dropped.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by exigent » Sun Dec 09, 2018 1:09 pm

Elysium wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:58 pm
That is correct. TIPS and other active managed funds with 50K minimum for admiral shares are still not allowed to be converted in i401K accounts. This is another one of the Vanguard quirks. In other words, Vanguard is still not looking at how much money you have to invest when it comes to i401k plans for admiral shares, rather the ones that were made it into their current list of funds were minimums were dropped.
Thanks for explanation. That's lame, but not particularly surprising when it comes to Vanguard.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by White Coat Investor » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:41 am

exigent wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:40 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:49 am
Unfortunately, we have four funds in our two i401(k)s.

Mine was all TIPS. Hers was TIPS, small value, and international small.

The SV was converted. The TIPS cannot (even if you have $50K in it in the i401(k)). And there still aren't admiral shares for International small. As I recall, that's actually why I moved that asset class into this account!

But sounds like I'll probably need to make some new asset location decisions in the future, probably moving TIPS and more IS (back to the Schwab TIPS ETF probably) into my partnership 401(k) (where I use the IS ETF) and moving TSM into my i401(k).
Just to clarify, when you say that you have TIPS in your account, what exactly do you mean? I ask because I have VIPSX (Vanguard Inflation-Protected Securities Fund Investor Shares) and have been dreaming of the day that they'd allow Admiral shares in their Solo 401(k) accounts so I could switch to the VAIPX (same fund, Admiral shares). Are you saying that they don't allow this for some reason? Or something else?
No TIPS fund admiral shares yet.
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Elysium » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:47 am

White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:41 am
exigent wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:40 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:49 am
Unfortunately, we have four funds in our two i401(k)s.

Mine was all TIPS. Hers was TIPS, small value, and international small.

The SV was converted. The TIPS cannot (even if you have $50K in it in the i401(k)). And there still aren't admiral shares for International small. As I recall, that's actually why I moved that asset class into this account!

But sounds like I'll probably need to make some new asset location decisions in the future, probably moving TIPS and more IS (back to the Schwab TIPS ETF probably) into my partnership 401(k) (where I use the IS ETF) and moving TSM into my i401(k).
Just to clarify, when you say that you have TIPS in your account, what exactly do you mean? I ask because I have VIPSX (Vanguard Inflation-Protected Securities Fund Investor Shares) and have been dreaming of the day that they'd allow Admiral shares in their Solo 401(k) accounts so I could switch to the VAIPX (same fund, Admiral shares). Are you saying that they don't allow this for some reason? Or something else?
No TIPS fund admiral shares yet.
WCI, VAIPX is the TIPS fund admiral shares. Vanguard isn't offering those with 50K minimum yet in i401k for purchase. That's what you meant I guess?

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by White Coat Investor » Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:54 am

Elysium wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:47 am
White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:41 am
exigent wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:40 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:49 am
Unfortunately, we have four funds in our two i401(k)s.

Mine was all TIPS. Hers was TIPS, small value, and international small.

The SV was converted. The TIPS cannot (even if you have $50K in it in the i401(k)). And there still aren't admiral shares for International small. As I recall, that's actually why I moved that asset class into this account!

But sounds like I'll probably need to make some new asset location decisions in the future, probably moving TIPS and more IS (back to the Schwab TIPS ETF probably) into my partnership 401(k) (where I use the IS ETF) and moving TSM into my i401(k).
Just to clarify, when you say that you have TIPS in your account, what exactly do you mean? I ask because I have VIPSX (Vanguard Inflation-Protected Securities Fund Investor Shares) and have been dreaming of the day that they'd allow Admiral shares in their Solo 401(k) accounts so I could switch to the VAIPX (same fund, Admiral shares). Are you saying that they don't allow this for some reason? Or something else?
No TIPS fund admiral shares yet.
WCI, VAIPX is the TIPS fund admiral shares. Vanguard isn't offering those with 50K minimum yet in i401k for purchase. That's what you meant I guess?
That's right.
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Admiral shares now allowed in Individual / Solo 401k

Post by discman017 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:02 pm

[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

With the reduction in the minimum balance for Admiral shares, I was curious how this would affect my individual 401k. Previously, you couldn't invest in Admiral shares in Vanguard's individual 401k. So I logged in and tried to transfer funds to the Total Bond Market Admiral shares and got the error message indicating that Admiral shares can't be held in this account type. But I also can't invest in Total Bond Market Investor shares because that fund has been closed. So the website provides no way to invest in Total Bond Market in an individual 401k! And presumably, the other 37 funds that had their minimums lowered to $3000.

Thinking that seemed crazy, I called and spoke with a representative. It turns out that Vanguard is now allowing Admiral shares to be held in individual 401k accounts, but the website doesn't support it yet. I was able to convert an existing fund from Investor shares to Admiral shares and invest additional funds in the Admiral shares, but the transactions had to happen over the phone. The rep said that subsequent transactions in Admiral shares of the same fund should be allowed on the website. No ETA for when you'll be able to add a new Admiral fund through the website.

Thought I'd share, since others with individual 401k plans at Vanguard may be interested in converting to Admiral.

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Re: Admiral shares now allowed in Individual / Solo 401k

Post by JediMisty » Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:05 pm

discman017 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 2:02 pm
With the reduction in the minimum balance for Admiral shares, I was curious how this would affect my individual 401k. Previously, you couldn't invest in Admiral shares in Vanguard's individual 401k. So I logged in and tried to transfer funds to the Total Bond Market Admiral shares and got the error message indicating that Admiral shares can't be held in this account type. But I also can't invest in Total Bond Market Investor shares because that fund has been closed. So the website provides no way to invest in Total Bond Market in an individual 401k! And presumably, the other 37 funds that had their minimums lowered to $3000.

Thinking that seemed crazy, I called and spoke with a representative. It turns out that Vanguard is now allowing Admiral shares to be held in individual 401k accounts, but the website doesn't support it yet. I was able to convert an existing fund from Investor shares to Admiral shares and invest additional funds in the Admiral shares, but the transactions had to happen over the phone. The rep said that subsequent transactions in Admiral shares of the same fund should be allowed on the website. No ETA for when you'll be able to add a new Admiral fund through the website.

Thought I'd share, since others with individual 401k plans at Vanguard may be interested in converting to Admiral.
Thanks. I'll do that for my BF.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by LadyGeek » Wed Dec 12, 2018 4:27 pm

I merged discman017's thread into the on-going discussion.
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by discman017 » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:11 pm

White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:41 am
No TIPS fund admiral shares yet.
Yes, Inflation-Protected Securities is unavailable in Admiral shares. But Short-Term Inflation-Protected Securities (VTAPX) is an index fund, therefore available in Admiral shares with the $3K minimum, therefore available in the individual 401k.

Just thought I'd throw that in there for folks who want to invest in TIPS Admiral shares. We're not talking about a huge difference in expenses (0.06% for VTAPX vs 0.20% for VIPSX), but with the yield curve so flat that may be enough to tip the scales for some. After-expense real yield is higher with the short-term fund.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by Therapist Investor » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:19 pm

This is a great new development that has me seriously thinking about transferring my i401k from Fidelity to Vanguard. Can someone clarify how you can contribute money into a Vanguard i401k? Is it as simple as doing an online bank transfer or are there more hoops to jump through?
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by RickBoglehead » Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:22 pm

SelfEmployed123 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:19 pm
This is a great new development that has me seriously thinking about transferring my i401k from Fidelity to Vanguard. Can someone clarify how you can contribute money into a Vanguard i401k? Is it as simple as doing an online bank transfer or are there more hoops to jump through?
Once setup you log in to VG Small Business and make a contribution from your bank. You cannot transfer from other Vanguard accounts.
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by White Coat Investor » Wed Dec 12, 2018 8:20 pm

RickBoglehead wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:22 pm
SelfEmployed123 wrote:
Wed Dec 12, 2018 5:19 pm
This is a great new development that has me seriously thinking about transferring my i401k from Fidelity to Vanguard. Can someone clarify how you can contribute money into a Vanguard i401k? Is it as simple as doing an online bank transfer or are there more hoops to jump through?
Once setup you log in to VG Small Business and make a contribution from your bank. You cannot transfer from other Vanguard accounts.
Yea, it's super easy but is is a separate site from your usual login. I just contribute from my business checking account.
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by exigent » Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:50 pm

White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:54 am
Elysium wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:47 am
White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:41 am
exigent wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:40 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Nov 27, 2018 11:49 am
Unfortunately, we have four funds in our two i401(k)s.

Mine was all TIPS. Hers was TIPS, small value, and international small.

The SV was converted. The TIPS cannot (even if you have $50K in it in the i401(k)). And there still aren't admiral shares for International small. As I recall, that's actually why I moved that asset class into this account!

But sounds like I'll probably need to make some new asset location decisions in the future, probably moving TIPS and more IS (back to the Schwab TIPS ETF probably) into my partnership 401(k) (where I use the IS ETF) and moving TSM into my i401(k).
Just to clarify, when you say that you have TIPS in your account, what exactly do you mean? I ask because I have VIPSX (Vanguard Inflation-Protected Securities Fund Investor Shares) and have been dreaming of the day that they'd allow Admiral shares in their Solo 401(k) accounts so I could switch to the VAIPX (same fund, Admiral shares). Are you saying that they don't allow this for some reason? Or something else?
No TIPS fund admiral shares yet.
WCI, VAIPX is the TIPS fund admiral shares. Vanguard isn't offering those with 50K minimum yet in i401k for purchase. That's what you meant I guess?
That's right.
Hey all, I just wanted to update this...

I finally got around to calling to convert my Total Bond Market Index shares from Investor to Admiral (VBMFX >>> VBTLX). While on the phone, I also asked about the situation with VIPSX (inflation-protected securities), as my understanding was that it still couldn't be converted to Admiral (VAIPX). He said that he actually thought it would be possible to do this conversion.

After setting up the TBM conversion, he checked on the VIPSX/VAIPX situation. A few seconds later, he told me that he could do the conversion, and proceeded to set it up for me. So, to those of you sitting on VIPSX in your Solo 401(k), you should call and ask about converting to Admiral shares.

For the curious: The total 401(k) value is ca. $200k, of which ca. $135k is VIPSX (soon to be VAIPX). So yeah, it's above the $50k minimum for Admiral shares, but my understanding was that this still wasn't possible, regardless of balance.

Good luck! If you try to do the same thing, let us know how it turns out.

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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by White Coat Investor » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:42 pm

exigent wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:50 pm
White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:54 am
Elysium wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:47 am
White Coat Investor wrote:
Mon Dec 10, 2018 12:41 am
exigent wrote:
Sun Dec 09, 2018 12:40 pm


Just to clarify, when you say that you have TIPS in your account, what exactly do you mean? I ask because I have VIPSX (Vanguard Inflation-Protected Securities Fund Investor Shares) and have been dreaming of the day that they'd allow Admiral shares in their Solo 401(k) accounts so I could switch to the VAIPX (same fund, Admiral shares). Are you saying that they don't allow this for some reason? Or something else?
No TIPS fund admiral shares yet.
WCI, VAIPX is the TIPS fund admiral shares. Vanguard isn't offering those with 50K minimum yet in i401k for purchase. That's what you meant I guess?
That's right.
Hey all, I just wanted to update this...

I finally got around to calling to convert my Total Bond Market Index shares from Investor to Admiral (VBMFX >>> VBTLX). While on the phone, I also asked about the situation with VIPSX (inflation-protected securities), as my understanding was that it still couldn't be converted to Admiral (VAIPX). He said that he actually thought it would be possible to do this conversion.

After setting up the TBM conversion, he checked on the VIPSX/VAIPX situation. A few seconds later, he told me that he could do the conversion, and proceeded to set it up for me. So, to those of you sitting on VIPSX in your Solo 401(k), you should call and ask about converting to Admiral shares.

For the curious: The total 401(k) value is ca. $200k, of which ca. $135k is VIPSX (soon to be VAIPX). So yeah, it's above the $50k minimum for Admiral shares, but my understanding was that this still wasn't possible, regardless of balance.

Good luck! If you try to do the same thing, let us know how it turns out.
These guys need to get their story straight. Classic Vanguard customer service there.
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Re: Vanguard Individual 401K now offering Admiral funds

Post by exigent » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:57 pm

White Coat Investor wrote:
Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:42 pm
exigent wrote:
Mon Dec 17, 2018 5:50 pm
Hey all, I just wanted to update this...

I finally got around to calling to convert my Total Bond Market Index shares from Investor to Admiral (VBMFX >>> VBTLX). While on the phone, I also asked about the situation with VIPSX (inflation-protected securities), as my understanding was that it still couldn't be converted to Admiral (VAIPX). He said that he actually thought it would be possible to do this conversion.

After setting up the TBM conversion, he checked on the VIPSX/VAIPX situation. A few seconds later, he told me that he could do the conversion, and proceeded to set it up for me. So, to those of you sitting on VIPSX in your Solo 401(k), you should call and ask about converting to Admiral shares.

For the curious: The total 401(k) value is ca. $200k, of which ca. $135k is VIPSX (soon to be VAIPX). So yeah, it's above the $50k minimum for Admiral shares, but my understanding was that this still wasn't possible, regardless of balance.

Good luck! If you try to do the same thing, let us know how it turns out.
These guys need to get their story straight. Classic Vanguard customer service there.
Agreed. But the upshot is that he was able to set it up for me, so you should call and ask them to do the same thing. The transactions are still showing as pending as of right now (I called last night after the market closed), but they should run this evening. Good luck.

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