Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

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zvez
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Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by zvez » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:18 pm

[Moved into a new thread from: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?] --admin LadyGeek]

can someone please explain why target fund vtwnx lost 12.84% or $3.99 a share today? I'm floored.

MTZ
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by MTZ » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:27 pm

yes, VTTHX down 7% today as well.. quite a one day drop for a TDF. Anyone know? :confused

zvez
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by zvez » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:28 pm

just talked to vanguard who have been flooded with calls, and said it's incorrect and will be fixed. That's a relief!

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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by zvez » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:29 pm

just talked to vanguard the figures quoted are incorrect and they are working on fixing.
MTZ wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:27 pm
yes, VTTHX down 7% today as well.. quite a one day drop for a TDF. Anyone know? :confused

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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by MTZ » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:31 pm

zvez wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:28 pm
just talked to vanguard who have been flooded with calls, and said it's incorrect and will be fixed. That's a relief!
thank you! but also... :annoyed

lilyn20
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by lilyn20 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:32 pm

I had the same shock from VTXVX (TR 2015 down 14.68% today), considering that I thought this shouldn't come until December. Appreciate the clarification (comfort) ...

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Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by dsmclone » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:38 pm

[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

I was just out looking at an account and it said
VTXVX is down 14.68% TODAY

VTHRX is down 9.31% TODAY

Should I assume this is a glitch?

tesuzuki2002
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by tesuzuki2002 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:46 pm

the calculation basis appears to be wrong..

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goingup
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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by goingup » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:46 pm

It's ridiculous. I'm a big Vanguard fan but every single Target Fund and every Life Strategy fund has a mucked up return for the day. One Lifestrategy fund is down 24% today! I realize this is an error but that really is of little comfort. What the heck is going on?!

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by mobi » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:47 pm

I have VFORX and is down 4.86%

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by jebmke » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:47 pm

tesuzuki2002 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:46 pm
the calculation basis appears to be wrong..
That would be my guess. Numbers this early should be taken with a grain of salt. Can't do anything based on a post-close number until the next day anyway.
When you discover that you are riding a dead horse, the best strategy is to dismount.

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by Comhaltas » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:50 pm

I just noticed the same for VTTVX. None of underlying funds dropped this significantly, so I suspect something is wrong. Appears to be for many target date funds.

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by Grover » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:51 pm

:confused

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by boater07 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:53 pm

Also in Target Income Fund VTINX. 13.3%. How can that be? when bond holdings are up and total stock only down a little

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Re: [Why did my fund suddenly drop in value?]

Post by mobi » Mon Oct 15, 2018 5:57 pm

I had a quick chest pain for a moment :oops:

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by dougger5 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:03 pm

Eeek...my VTTHX (Target 2035) is shown down 7.08%. Same for LifeStrategy Growth - down -6.49%. Definitely something up with the target and other funds-of-funds.

Glad I saw this thread first! I'll definitely be checking tomorrow. Hopefully it'll get sorted overnight.
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by Slapshot » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:04 pm

Just talked to Vanguard. A glitch. Correct numbers should be up after 7:30 PM.
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by mervinj7 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:05 pm

It's just an error with the Vanguard website. Ignore it for a day and check back tomorrow.

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parsi1
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by parsi1 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:09 pm

Holder of VTTVX (TR2025) I am glad I came here before panicking and calling Vanguard.

ralphs007
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by ralphs007 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:26 pm

Vanguard website says,Vanguard LifeStrategy Conservative Growth Fund down 18.47 %. I can't wait until 7:30 :mrgreen:

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by boater07 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:48 pm

It's fixed.just downloaded

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by BarbBrooklyn » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:51 pm

I am also seeing a tremendous drop in my target date fund (Vangaurd 2020). I'm assuming that there is a glitch somewhere.
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by absolutelybillsmood » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:55 pm

My VFORX is still showing -4.86%.

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by ralphs007 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:57 pm

I hardly ever check my accounts,but I signed in tonight,to transfer some money out of my money marked account.I almost fainted when I saw the 18.47 drop! I live in a one story house,so I couldn't even jump off my roof. :oops:

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by ralphs007 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:02 pm

BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:51 pm
I am also seeing a tremendous drop in my target date fund (Vangaurd 2020). I'm assuming that there is a glitch somewhere.
Copy your stock symbol,and do a quick google search,you'll feel better. Vanguard rep. said everything should be fixed by tomorrow.

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by LadyGeek » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:20 pm

zvez and dsmclone - I combined your threads, which is now in the Investing - Theory, News & General forum (Vanguard misquoted Target Date Funds). The software sorts by time, zvev is first.

absolutelybillsmood, Welcome!
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by Index Fan » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:28 pm

Not a shining moment for Vanguard.
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by Kevin M » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:34 pm

ralphs007 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:02 pm
BarbBrooklyn wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:51 pm
I am also seeing a tremendous drop in my target date fund (Vangaurd 2020). I'm assuming that there is a glitch somewhere.
Copy your stock symbol,and do a quick google search,you'll feel better. Vanguard rep. said everything should be fixed by tomorrow.
You can't check the balanced fund prices until after the market has closed--maybe a few hours after. But you can Google the ETF shares of the components of the fund. Check VTI for total US stocks and VXUS for total international stocks--that's the first thing I did when I saw this thread.

You could also check BND for total US bonds and BNDX for total international bonds, but you know they aren't going to drop that much in one day.

Kevin
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by ralphs007 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 7:37 pm

That's the advice the Vanguard rep. gave me.Thanks for the help.

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Vanguard VASIX sudden drop in price

Post by bornitz » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:14 pm

[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]

Hi,

When I signed into Vanguard this afternoon I noticed that VASIX dropped from $15.13 (10/12) to $11.45 (today) per share and along with it went a chunk of my rollover IRA. I called but their phone system is very busy and I never got through.

About an hour later, I noticed that the price was $15.12 and most of the balance in that holding was restored.

It was very unsettling to see such a huge drop ($3.67) on a day that the market (taking into consideration the composition of the fund) wasn't that volatile. Does anyone know why this would happen?

Thanks in advance,
Bonnie

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Re: Vanguard VASIX sudden drop in price

Post by jebmke » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:17 pm

Probably a data glitch. Try not to look every day and especially at night.
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Re: Vanguard VASIX sudden drop in price

Post by Gryphon » Mon Oct 15, 2018 8:18 pm


youngpleb
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by youngpleb » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:03 pm

This is why it’s good to only check in on your portfolio occasionally. You miss stuff like this :sharebeer
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bornitz
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Re: Vanguard VASIX sudden drop in price

Post by bornitz » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:07 pm

Thank you both. I’ll try not to look every day and certainly not early after close. Much appreciated.

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by badbreath » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:13 pm

This is why it’s good to only check in on your portfolio occasionally. You miss stuff like this
Your looking to many times a day at your funds. look only once a quarter, it will be much smother
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by Theoretical » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:29 pm

youngpleb wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:03 pm
This is why it’s good to only check in on your portfolio occasionally. You miss stuff like this :sharebeer
I think it’s more obvious that Vanguard is seriously cheaped out on the financial technology and it’s going to really bite them and a lot of people some day. There are a lot of these kind of errors floating around VG that aren’t around blackrock, fidelity, schwab, etc...

It strikes me as growing too much too fast.

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by WanderingDoc » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:45 pm

Theoretical wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:29 pm
youngpleb wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:03 pm
This is why it’s good to only check in on your portfolio occasionally. You miss stuff like this :sharebeer
I think it’s more obvious that Vanguard is seriously cheaped out on the financial technology and it’s going to really bite them and a lot of people some day. There are a lot of these kind of errors floating around VG that aren’t around blackrock, fidelity, schwab, etc...

It strikes me as growing too much too fast.
Vanguard seems glitchy and annoying. I don't check much, but if my portfolio with them gets to any significant level, I will move everything to Schwab or Fidelity. Cheaper and more reliable from what I gather.
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by dccboone » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:51 pm

Theoretical wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:29 pm
youngpleb wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:03 pm
This is why it’s good to only check in on your portfolio occasionally. You miss stuff like this :sharebeer
There are a lot of these kind of errors floating around VG that aren’t around blackrock, fidelity, schwab, etc...
Are you expressing an opinion or do you have facts to support your statement?

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Re: Vanguard VASIX sudden drop in price

Post by satoriboat » Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:54 pm

I think the bigger issue here is that the OP, valued customer of Vanguard, was UNABLE to get through on the phone when he needed to. When I have to get through to such stalwarts of customer service vsuch as Verizon, Social Security, the IRS,,, Chase Bank and countless other organizations manage to pick up the phone. Try apple if you want to be impressed. Or Schwab. This year when I fund my retirement plan it will not go to Vanguard.. the service is just not there.

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by mervinj7 » Mon Oct 15, 2018 10:21 pm

dccboone wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:51 pm
Theoretical wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 9:29 pm
There are a lot of these kind of errors floating around VG that aren’t around blackrock, fidelity, schwab, etc...
Are you expressing an opinion or do you have facts to support your statement?
They are probably referring to the technical issues from last week.
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/vangu ... 2018-10-12

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Re: Vanguard VASIX sudden drop in price

Post by bornitz » Mon Oct 15, 2018 11:11 pm

Thank you and I agree. I'm considering moving what's in Vanguard to another brokerage. I already have Fidelity and when I pick up the phone it's answered within seconds. I don't know if it makes sense to put all of my eggs in the Fidelity basket, but my days with Vanguard are coming to an end. Their customer service is non-existent these days. Thanks again.

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by FIREchief » Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:12 am

ralphs007 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:57 pm
I hardly ever check my accounts,but I signed in tonight,to transfer some money out of my money marked account.I almost fainted when I saw the 18.47 drop! I live in a one story house,so I couldn't even jump off my roof. :oops:
Why can't you jump off the roof of a one story house? :confused
I am not a lawyer, accountant or financial advisor. Any advice or suggestions that I may provide shall be considered for entertainment purposes only.

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by GoldenFinch » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:32 am

Once my entire Schwab account went to zero. I checked back later in the day and it was back to normal. It was a little disconcerting.

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by GoldenFinch » Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:36 am

FIREchief wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:12 am
ralphs007 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:57 pm
I hardly ever check my accounts,but I signed in tonight,to transfer some money out of my money marked account.I almost fainted when I saw the 18.47 drop! I live in a one story house,so I couldn't even jump off my roof. :oops:
Why can't you jump off the roof of a one story house? :confused
It was a suicide attempt that would fail because of the short distance to the ground. He is thinking of the wallstreeters flinging themselves out of windows after “the big one.”

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by Valuethinker » Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:15 am

GoldenFinch wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:36 am
FIREchief wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:12 am
ralphs007 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:57 pm
I hardly ever check my accounts,but I signed in tonight,to transfer some money out of my money marked account.I almost fainted when I saw the 18.47 drop! I live in a one story house,so I couldn't even jump off my roof. :oops:
Why can't you jump off the roof of a one story house? :confused
It was a suicide attempt that would fail because of the short distance to the ground. He is thinking of the wallstreeters flinging themselves out of windows after “the big one.”
Modern office windows don't open so such an approach to suicide is difficult or impossible. The glass is toughened too hard just to break*.

I don't know if anyone actually threw themselves off a window ledge after the Crash of 1929 - that's got a smell of an urban legend (can't right now track it down).

Unfortunately it evokes the memories and photographs of 9-11 and the Twin Towers of WTC that those of us who were alive then, can remember quite clearly -- people jumping to avoid burning to death. For my parents' generation it is "where were you the moment you heard John Kennedy had been shot?" For my generation it was "where were you when you heard the Twin Towers were on fire?".

* in Toronto, someone did fall after a window popped out of its frame.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garry_Hoy

https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/windo ... gth-death/ (the photo shown is not a photo of the actual event)

from the testimony there it looks like a 160 lb male *could* break a modern office window out of its frame - they seem stronger than that (but I have never tried it).

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by ralphs007 » Tue Oct 16, 2018 3:19 pm

FIREchief wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 12:12 am
ralphs007 wrote:
Mon Oct 15, 2018 6:57 pm
I hardly ever check my accounts,but I signed in tonight,to transfer some money out of my money marked account.I almost fainted when I saw the 18.47 drop! I live in a one story house,so I couldn't even jump off my roof. :oops:
Why can't you jump off the roof of a one story house? :confused
I'd probably just sprain my ankle. :mrgreen:

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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX

Post by nisiprius » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:35 pm

Valuethinker wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 8:15 am
GoldenFinch wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 6:36 am
He is thinking of the wallstreeters flinging themselves out of windows after “the big one.”
I don't know if anyone actually threw themselves off a window ledge after the Crash of 1929 - that's got a smell of an urban legend (can't right now track it down).
I once made an incomplete attempt... what I found doing a search of The New York Times was that there really was one case of a stockbroker killing himself by jumping out of a window after the crash, but (as always) the reasons for the the suicide weren't clear... and it does not seem to have been widespread or common. Putting in the plural and saying "people" or "Wall Streeters" were doing it is, as if it was common, is probably an urban legend. Small numbers of suicides from jumping off buildings were going on somewhat regularly. I'm not sure how often people really climbed out on ledges and needed to be talked back in.
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by nisiprius » Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:49 pm

Yes, here is is: December 11th, 1929:
EX-BROKER, 56, DIES IN NINE-STORY LEAP: Frank K. Emmett, Who Retired Three Years Ago, Jumps From Window in Apartment. CAUSE OF ACT A MYSTERY Wife and Associates Say His Health Was Good and He Had Suffered No Financial Reverses.
So, a broker, a jump, but not from an office building, and no financial reverse involved.

12 Dec 1919:
LOSES $30,000, ENDS LIFE.: III Man Who Had Put All in Stocks Jumps in Front of Subway Train.
So, stock market loss, suicide, but not a broker. By jumping, but not from a building.

12 Feb. 1930:
LEAPS TWELVE FLOORS TO DEATH IN WALL ST.: Sea Captain, With $3,000 Cash, Jumps From the Stock Exchange Building.
On Wall Street, from the actual Stock Exchange building--but not a broker and not clear that stock losses had anything to do with it.

2 Apr. 1930
MARKET LOSER ENDS LIFE.: W.F. Rees Plunges From Window of Riverside Drive Apartment.
That's getting close. A market loser, by jumping--but from his apartment, not an office building.

So, a lot of stories probably got blended together to make the narrative the sounds "right:" jumping, (a) by brokers, (b) from their own office windows, (c) because of the crash. All these elements existed in different stories, but probably not all together in the same story.

(The New York Times seems to have carried on the rough order of twenty suicides a year by people jumping from buildings. How many more went unreported, who knows?)
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by nisiprius » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:31 pm

Good article about the idea of brokers jumping from buildings, and crash-related suicides, in The Washington Post in 1987, here.
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Re: Huge drops in VTXVX and VTHRX [Vanguard Target Date Funds]

Post by unclescrooge » Tue Oct 16, 2018 5:39 pm

nisiprius wrote:
Tue Oct 16, 2018 4:49 pm
Yes, here is is: December 11th, 1929:
EX-BROKER, 56, DIES IN NINE-STORY LEAP: Frank K. Emmett, Who Retired Three Years Ago, Jumps From Window in Apartment. CAUSE OF ACT A MYSTERY Wife and Associates Say His Health Was Good and He Had Suffered No Financial Reverses.
So, a broker, a jump, but not from an office building, and no financial reverse involved.

12 Dec 1919:
LOSES $30,000, ENDS LIFE.: III Man Who Had Put All in Stocks Jumps in Front of Subway Train.
So, stock market loss, suicide, but not a broker. By jumping, but not from a building.

12 Feb. 1930:
LEAPS TWELVE FLOORS TO DEATH IN WALL ST.: Sea Captain, With $3,000 Cash, Jumps From the Stock Exchange Building.
On Wall Street, from the actual Stock Exchange building--but not a broker and not clear that stock losses had anything to do with it.

2 Apr. 1930
MARKET LOSER ENDS LIFE.: W.F. Rees Plunges From Window of Riverside Drive Apartment.
That's getting close. A market loser, by jumping--but from his apartment, not an office building.

So, a lot of stories probably got blended together to make the narrative the sounds "right:" jumping, (a) by brokers, (b) from their own office windows, (c) because of the crash. All these elements existed in different stories, but probably not all together in the same story.

(The New York Times seems to have carried on the rough order of twenty suicides a year by people jumping from buildings. How many more went unreported, who knows?)
I also remember reading about a Morgan Stanley executive who committed suicide in 2008.

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